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The Lead with Jake Tapper

President Trump Arrives In Rome For Funeral Of Pope Francis; FBI Arrests Wisconsin Judge, Accuses Her Of Obstructing ICE; Luigi Mangione Pleads Not Guilty To Federal Charges; Shein And Temu Started Raise Prices Ahead Of New Tariffs; Teams Pass On Picking Shedeur Sanders In First Round. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 25, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump are now in Rome ahead of the funeral for Pope Francis.

[18:00:00]

What the president told reporters about possible meetings with global leaders while he's overseas.

Plus, the arrest of a Wisconsin judge accused of intentionally misdirecting federal agents so she could help an undocumented immigrant who was in her courtroom for domestic violence evade arrest. This latest clash between the Trump administration and the courts, ahead.

And a brand new memo from the Justice Department does it now threaten protections for journalists who break stories using anonymous sources.

And the court drama, disgraced former Congressman George Santos gets his prison sentence as the alleged assassin of the United Healthcare CEO, the man called Luigi Mangione enters his plea.

The Lead Tonight, moments ago, President Trump and his wife, First Lady Melania Trump, touching down in Rome to attend tomorrow's funeral of Pope Francis, the first foreign trip of his second turn.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live for us at the White House. And, Jeff, on the plane, the president addressed reporters on several topics. What did he have to say?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He did. Jake first and foremost was again talking about that ongoing attempt to reach a ceasefire in Ukraine. Of course, this has been a frustration of the president that Vladimir Putin and Volodymyr Zelenskyy have not been able to reach an accord.

But the president, just a few moments ago after landing, he sent out this synopsis on a Truth Social. Let's take a quick look at it. He said, it was a good day in hawks in meetings with Russia and Ukraine. They are very close to a deal, and the two sides should meet now at very high levels to finish it off. Most of the major points, he says, have been agreed to stop the bloodshed now. So, we shall see if there is any movement on this front.

Of course, the president vented his frustration at Vladimir Putin just a day ago after that one of the most deadliest bombings since last summer that Russia inflicted again on Kyiv. This is all coming as one of the presidents at top envoys was meeting in Moscow with Vladimir Putin as well.

But the president also talked, Jake, about other potential meetings he could have with world leaders while attending the pope's funeral.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Who were you attending?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm going to be meeting some people in Rome, yes. And a little bit quickly, and frankly it's a little disrespectful to have meetings when you're at the funeral of a pope, they say. But I'll be talking to people. I'll be seeing a lot of people, including the -- yes, including the prime minister of Italy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Of course, the prime minister of Italy was just in Washington last week. A bigger question is would the president meet President Zelenskyy of Ukraine? And that still is an open question, Jake.

TAPPER: And President Zelenskyy has said he plans to attend tomorrow's funeral. TIME Magazine just published an interview with President Trump. We're going to talk to the editor in a second. The president was asked about the war in Ukraine. How did he respond?

ZELENY: He was Jake, and it's, again, making clear as the president is reaching his 100th day in office. This is one of the frustrations, largely because he's set expectations so high that he would be able to end this war quickly. But he did address that specifically a very interesting answer here in the TIME Magazine interview. Let's take a look at that.

He said, well, I said that figuratively, that he could end the war on day one, I said that as an exaggeration, the president said, because to make a point, you know, it gets, of course, he said by fake news. Obviously, people knew when I said that, they were saying it in jest, but it was also said that that's when it would be ended. So, the bottom line here is he said that he could end this war on day one in office. Jake, we're nearing day 100 and the war, as we know, still rages on.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thank you.

For more on that wide-ranging TIME Magazine interview with President Trump, let's bring in the editor-in-chief of TIME Magazine, Sam Jacobs. So, the interview was conducted by you, Sam, and your senior political correspondent, Eric Cortellessa. We just heard Zeleny quoting part of your interview with the president, in which he says he was exaggerating when he would say the war in Ukraine would end on day one. That we should know, this is TIME Magazine's fourth interview with President Trump since he won the Republican nomination last spring. What is your biggest takeaway from what you've heard from Trump then to now almost 100 days into his second term?

SAM JACOBS, EDITOR-IN-HICEF, TIME MAGAZINE: I think this is, as you said, a rare long form interview with the president. TIME has sat down with him now on four occasions since he first clinched the Republican nomination last spring. I think the atmosphere is just so different. Previously when we've talked about him, he's been loose and celebratory. He's been at moments of, you know, peak achievement, clinching the nomination, winning the presidency.

There's a sense of maybe tightness that's surrounding him a little bit, a sense of restriction. There are all these crises brewing and there is an air of defensiveness on a number of these points when we tried to push him in places and said, well, you said this about Ukraine, as Jeff Zeleny pointed out, his response was, well, I didn't really mean it.

[18:05:04]

That was figurative. You know, I was exaggerating. And so it's very interesting to see that he feels the pressure now coming on and he recognizes. In fact, we talked about, you know, you've made cuts to national security. If there were an attack on the homeland, would you be blamed? And he said, yes, you know, the president is held accountable. And so we are hearing from him not necessarily in his character, but a sense of accountability for certain things that are happening under his watch.

TAPPER: So, since his return to power, President Trump has certainly asserted control over Congress. He's gone after universities, law firms. He disagrees, however, that he's expanding the power of the presidency. He says, quote, I don't feel I'm expanding it. I think I'm using it as it was meant to be used, unquote. When asked, when TIME asked if he's concentrating more power in the office of the president since he took office, he said, quote, I don't think so. I think I'm using it properly and I'm also using it as per my election, unquote. What was your reaction to hearing that?

JACOBS: The president loves performing the act of the presidency. In fact, during the middle of our interview, he stopped the conversation to take a call from the prime minister of India, Narendra Modi, and had us sit there and watch him while this call took place. He enjoys being seen as president. But I think for the most part you know, this sense of accountability really has changed. And he doesn't really want to own up to the fact that he's changing what he's doing.

You know, it's interesting he said, well, I was just being figurative about Ukraine but when I expand the powers of the presidency, I'm just doing what I said I was going to do. So, there's a real tension and a real difficulty there in trying to understand what the president thinks of what he's doing.

TAPPER: We've seen a lot of volatility in world markets since the so- called liberation day. But even before that, just as President Trump is trying to enact these economic policies, including these historic tariffs on a wide variety of imports.

Now, TIME asked if there are still high tariffs from 20 percent up to 50 percent a year from now, would he consider that a victory? And he said, quote, total victory. So, why does he think that?

JACOBS: This is a really hard ball to follow. At the same time, he told us that this would all be settled within three to four weeks, that there are 200 deals in place, that he's talking to China, an account that the Chinese had denied immediately afterwards. We saw all these statements move the market before it was opening today, moved futures.

So, it's very hard to figure out the president who's very comfortable talking about holding these tariffs up, also at the same time really seems to say, well, this is all going to get settled really quickly.

TAPPER: 200 deals, even though there are only 193 countries. That's something.

JACOBS: It's impressive.

TAPPER: President Trump has talked about running for a third term despite the 22nd Amendment, which would prohibit him from being elected to more than two terms as president. You asked what method he would use to get around that. He said quote, I'd rather not discuss that now. But as you know, there are some loopholes that have been discussed that are well known, but I don't believe in loopholes. I don't believe in using loopholes.

It's tough to tell whether these Trump 2028 hats that the Trump team is starting to unveil whether this is just a master troll trying to get the media and the Democrats all a tizzy, or if they actually mean it. I kind of think they mean it. What do you think?

JACOBS: Hard to tell when you don't know whether they're being figurative or literal. Certainly, when we asked the president a year ago, what are you going to do if you win? He said, I'm going to run and have one more term. I'm going to do a great job and I'm going to be done. When I asked him, you know, would you run as J.D. Vance's, vice president, a maneuver that might be constitutional and certainly mirrors things we've seen in places like Russia, he said, I don't know anything about that, and then questioned the cognitive abilities of the reporters who were talking to him.

I think he enjoys the cat and mouse game of talking through this. I think it's very hard for us to say what his intention is. It's dangerous to try to read into his psychology. But if I had to guess, I do think he's sort of trying to get a troll out of us.

TAPPER: Yes. Of course, he'll also turn 79 in June. So, we'll see what father time has to say about that third term as well.

Sam Jacobs, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Turning now to our breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead, the FBI says, it's arrested a Wisconsin State judge today for allegedly helping an undocumented migrant avoid getting arrested by ICE agents. Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan faces two charges for obstruction and concealing this individual from arrest.

Earlier today, U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi accused Judge Dugan who protected an undocumented migrant who was in court for domestic violence charges.

Former Federal Prosecutor Elliot Williams is with me. And, Elliot, what do you make of this arrest?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what do I make of the arrest or what do I make of the crime, I mean, of the alleged crime? The alleged crime is something real.

TAPPER: Yes.

WILLIAMS: If you read through the complaint, it's, you know, did she corruptly obstructive proceeding or the administration --

TAPPER: And we haven't heard her denying that she did either.

[18:10:01]

WILLIAMS: Well, she doesn't have to deny that she did, particularly if she's a criminal defendant. But the evidence, at least to arrest her is there.

Now, what I would take some issue with is why are they, for a sitting judge, putting her in a holding cell, why are they arresting her at her workplace and so on, if not to make a big, splashy political statement about it. Under normal circumstances, they could have called her at home, called her attorney, or whatever else. They intended to make this far more of a political point than a legal one.

TAPPER: Right. Well, but, I mean, the undocumented migrant, the judge allegedly helped evade arrest, is accused of domestic violence.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

TAPPER: He's been accused of entering the country illegally twice. She hasn't said anything. The people that are speaking on her behalf are not denying what she's accused of doing in terms of helping this guy evade ICE.

WILLIAMS: Yes. I would separate sort of, whether it's the baby from the bathwater or the ancillary issues from the underlying offense. What you have here is pretty clear evidence of at least a likelihood of, you know, why someone should have been arrested for letting an administrative warrant go.

TAPPER: Right.

WILLIAMS: It's not that serious an offense in and of itself. All the stuff about the immigration proceeding, we can talk about that in, in other circumstances, but this is about the defendant, this criminal defendant right now. And I think

TAPPER: You mean the judge?

WILLIAMS: The judge is a criminal defendant.

TAPPER: Yes.

WILLIAMS: The guy is is a fact in the story, not relevant entirely to how she was treated. That's what it's about.

TAPPER: Well, it's a fact in the story to the degree that this is a political statement, right? And the political statement is, here we go once again, where there is this cause made of somebody who is accused of domestic violence and probably a lot of Americans look at this and say, why are people going out of this way, their way to help somebody who's an alleged wife beater?

WILLIAMS: And that's when the law and politics collide. And I think all of that stuff about him really comes up at her sentencing. If she's convicted, absolutely, it makes it worse that she was harboring someone who, with all of these horrible things in his background, but --

TAPPER: Who's in this country illegally?

WILLIAMS: Who's in this country unlawfully in the first place.

TAPPER: Right.

WILLIAMS: And the question is, she didn't have an obligation to help law enforcement that the crime is getting in their way, and it seems based on what we've seen on paper. Now, again, she can raise whatever defense she wants, but it seems pretty bad for her right now.

TAPPER: All right. Elliot Williams, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Then, of course, there is the politics of the rest of the Wisconsin judge. We're going to talk about that with our political panel.

Plus, Trump's claim that he made 200 deals on trade. There are not 200 countries in the world. All of that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: We're back with more in our Politics Lead, the stunning news out of Wisconsin, where the FBI arrested a Milwaukee County judge for allegedly obstructing ice attempts to get an undocumented immigrant. My panel's here.

S.E., it's just big news, this whole thing, whatever size people are on. Here are two different Wisconsin reactions. Congressman Derek Van Orden, a Republican, said it is abundantly clear that many activist judges around the country have been actively or acting politically in order to sabotage President Trump's agenda. Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin calls it a gravely serious and threatening move that threatens to breach the separations of power. What do you -- what's your take on it all?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, several things can be true at once. I think those things are true, but I think this is a huge political win for Trump and MAGA. I think to an average person, they would say, well, okay, we don't want ICE busting down the doors of schools to capture illegal immigrants and deport them. We don't want ICE busting down people's homes. You'd want them to come to a court where they're already in custody and aren't risking public safety to apprehend them. That's one.

Two, Trump wins on deportation. It's like the only bright spot in his approval rating right now is this issue. Most people are with him. And I think most people would also hear this and think, wait a second, the judge opened a back door to let this guy leave and escape law enforcement, and then he took off on foot. That seems to be a really bad idea.

So, again, big win for Trump politically, but I think the other critiques are probably also true.

TAPPER: Yes. I mean, even wife beaters deserve due process might be true, but it's not a good bumper sticker for the Democrats.

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I agree, and I actually agree with S.E. on this. I think it is a win for Trump.

I will say, though, the reason why you have this big divide is for two reasons. You know Republicans believe it's a win. That's why Pam Bondi went on Fox News right afterwards. This is why Kash Patel goes out and tweets about the arrest at the Justice Department. We never used to do that stuff. We would -- the arrest would happen. You gather the facts, and then if you needed, you would put out a press release, not on something like this, this -- like a case like this.

On the other hand, you have Democrats who are sounding the alarm, because on its face, it looks like what Trump has been doing, which is attacking the judiciary, and this is a long pattern of attacking people who do not agree with him. And so we need to see all the facts. And on its face, it doesn't look good for this judge. But at the same time, I can see Democrats being upset because he has this long history of attacking the judiciary, which no president has really ever done.

BILL STEPIEN, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER, DONALD TRUMP'S 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: He can now say, I told you so. He can say, everything I've been saying to this point is true. I've told you there's bias against me, against my policies. Look at it now.

It's tough to have a fight in politics when you're shadow boxing against the legal ruling. There is now a name and a face and it's her, and that's a big win for Donald Trump.

CUPP: But this was a crime of opportunity, essentially. I mean, you know, the Trump administration didn't know that this judge was going to do that. I'm sure this sort of happened all in the moment. And, of course, they're going to pounce on it. Of course, they're going to seize this political opportunity. They can say, see, we told you so. That won't entirely be true. But I think to most people they will say, yes, this sounds like this judge made a political decision and not a legal decision.

HINOJOSA: Yes. It worries me a little bit, though, because they're going to take this and use this example, of course, to attack every judge across the country.

[18:20:05]

They have so many --

STEPIEN: But whose fault is that?

CUPP: Right.

HINOJOSA: I mean, they have -- well, they have taken it all the way up -- you know, they're going to take every case, all the way up to the Supreme Court, see whatever they can do, and they're going to attack every judge. And that's what worries me. It worries me that this is becoming something large.

TAPPER: Having foolish enemies can be a luck of --

STEPIEN: A boogeyman.

TAPPER: Yes.

STEPIEN: There's the boogeyman.

TAPPER: I want to ask about this because it's important to me personally. A new policy in the Trump Justice Department, Attorney General Pam Bondi, has decided, quote, it is necessary to rescind former Attorney General Merrick Garland's policies precluding the Department of Justice from seeking records and compelling testimony from members of the news media in order to identify and punish the source of improper leaks.

So, just to translate this, Merrick Garland did something that no other attorney general had done, not Obama's attorneys generals, not Bush's, not Trump's, and that is, say we're not -- when we're doing leak investigations, we're not going to go after the journalists, as Obama did, as Bush did.

Now, so what Garland did was the aberration, but God, I loved it. Yes. It was a great aberration. It was won in honor of the First Amendment. What Trump's doing is, I don't like it, but it's -- unfortunately, it's kind of actually the standard.

HINOJOSA: Well, I think the way that we need to look at it and what I don't disagree with Pam Bondi, newsflash, but, I mean, one thing is that she's saying this is to investigate leaks. It's not the reporter leaking. You can investigate leaks and investigate internal leaks by having an internal leak investigation. TAPPER: Yes. But it's not --

HINOJOSA: It does not change that.

TAPPER: Right. But just go to the person who, The New York Times reporter, the CNN reporter, and say, we're going to throw you in prison if you don't tell us your source.

HINOJOSA: Absolutely.

TAPPER: That is what's going to happen. Now, that's Obama did and that's what Bush did.

HINOJOSA: That's exactly what's going to happen. And, honestly, the memo was -- it was about protecting the media, but it was also holding the government accountable, making sure that the government isn't going after reporters and their sources.

TAPPER: Right.

HINOJOSA: And this is -- I mean, the Trump administration has been salivating to do this. We've heard that this is going to happen for quite some time because they do want to subpoena reporters.

STEPIEN: Look, there are different kinds of leaks, right? Leaks about the Pentagon makeup room, one thing, unimportant, national security crimes, like I hope we're overturning every stone and trying to figure out what happened.

I tell you, a lot of people in the White House I've worked in would be in orange jumpsuits because there were leaks galore there.

TAPPER: Yes.

CUPP: I mean, this is really -- this is going to be tough and tricky because it would be media malpractice, journalistic malpractice to say, well, I have some information from a leaker in the White House but I'm not going to use it because I didn't get Trump's permission, or this leaker didn't get Trump's permission to give it to me. Of course, we would use it. We have to have that ability and to have this kind of targeted attack.

Again, it's going back to precedent, but this targeted attack where you, the journalists, are now going to be in the hot seat, deposed, testimony, may be in jail, I think is going to make a lot of us feel very nervous about what we do.

TAPPER: And also, I mean, I think it's important to point out, we're not talking about like the locations of our nuclear weapons, like we're talking about things that people presumably would leak because the public needs to know them. And the fear is that that is what the Trump Justice Department would think, oh, well, that's national security, when actually it's just something that the public has a right to know.

But, anyway, thanks one and all for being here. I hope you enjoy White House Correspondents' Association weekend, hell of a present from Pam Bondi on the start of that weekend.

Ahead, Luigi Mangione, the 26-year-old who is accused of killing the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he's back in a courtroom. Find out what happened.

Plus, disgraced former Congressman George Santos, Republican of the empire state, hurt his fate from a judge today. How long is he going to end up behind bars? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: And we're back with our Law and Justice Lead. Disgraced ex- Republican Congressman George Santos received seven years and two months in prison today for aggravated identity theft and wire fraud. Santos pleaded guilty in August 2024. He was expelled from Congress in late 2023.

He had sparked controversy before he even arrived on Capitol Hill after reports that he had fabricated major parts of his biography. The judge ruled that he must surrender to go to prison by July 25th.

In New York as well, Luigi Mangione pleaded not guilty today to all federal charges against him, including murder, stalking, and a firearms offense. The 26-year-old Mangione is accused of killing UnitedHealthcare, CEO Brian Thompson in Midtown Manhattan back in December.

CNN's, Kara Scannell was inside that courtroom. Kara, what happened today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Jake, Mangione came into the courtroom. He was escorted by U.S. Marshals, had both his ankles and his wrists were shackled. And he is wearing a beige prison jumpsuit, not the usual street clothes that he has normally been able to change into. So, he stood up when he was asked how he was going to plead in this case. He leaned into the microphone and he said not guilty to these four federal charges including murder through the use of the firearm. That is the charge that makes this case death penalty eligible.

And, overnight, prosecutors informed the judge that they did intend to seek the death penalty, saying they thought it was justified because they believe Mangione intended to shoot United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson and kill him, and that they believe that he is future potential harm because he has -- because he said that part of his actions were intended to rally political and public and social support against the healthcare industry.

And we did see in the courtroom today, there were about 30 members of the public there. No one dressed in any of the pro Mangione gear. But outside, there was a pocket of protestors or supporters for him that did have signs saying, free Luigi. Jake?

TAPPER: Kara, originally, Mangione's New York State criminal case was going to come before his federal case, but things changed.

[18:30:03]

Can you explain?

SCANNELL: Yes. So, his lawyer raised it in the court hearing today saying that because prosecutors do want to seek the death penalty in this case, they want this case, the federal case, to go to trial first before the state charges. But this was something that his lawyer raised. It is not decided today. It will probably get some resistance from state prosecutors who have been pushing to have their trial, their case go to trial first. All of that still to be decided.

Mangione will be back in state court in June and back at this courthouse in December. That is when the federal judge said she expects to set a trial date for some time in 2026. Jake?

TAPPER: Kara Cannell, thank you so much.

I want to bring in Olivia Reingold from The Free Press. Olivia, thanks for coming here. You covered the massive influx of online support from Mangione that came after Attorney General Bondi announced the Department of Justice was going to seek the death penalty.

You write, quote, his fans who follow every move in his case on the internet, consider the 26-year-old a progressive folk hero who is waging a righteous war against a corrupt capitalist system. One hour after the death penalty news was announced on April 1st, more than 400 fans had donated over $12,000 to the, website or whatever for Mangione's legal defense fund, unquote.

This case was, of course, the center of a lot of interest. I can't even remotely understand these people donating money. I mean, that's as weird as it is to express support for this killer, alleged killer on the internet, on Instagram or TikTok, or whatever, they're sending money. What do you think is going on here? Can you explain this phenomenon to us?

OLIVIA REINGOLD, STAFF WRITER, THE FREE PRESS: Well, okay. So, today was a big day, you know, a not guilty plea here. But a lot of the support, it doesn't really hinge on guilt. These are supporters who, a lot of them believe he is guilty. They do believe that he did commit this murder, and that is why some of them support him because they believe it was actually an act of justice, and it is the healthcare system that is guilty of everyday murder.

And, surprisingly, I know that a lot of the time his supporters are considered on the left. That's definitely the case when you got into the Discord, which, I don't mean to brag, I am a member of his private secret discord, but it definitely extends to the right as well. There's more bipartisanship here than you would think. Even Ben Shapiro was called out when he first tried to kind of take on Luigi Mangione. His commenters left YouTube comment saying, Ben, read the room. Some of us are Luigi supporters.

TAPPER: Interesting. Speaking of support on the right, I want to play something that Steve Bannon, obviously a big MAGA guy, said on Wednesday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Is this Luigi, the look has treated like a hero, he's treated like Robin Hood. That should scare you to the mirror of your bones, because that's the alternative -- if the system keeps going like it is, that alternative is your alternative. We offer -- the populists, nationalists offer something you're not going to love but you'll be able to live with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, there is kind of a split between like Bannon's view of what MAGA should be and how it is being implemented. It's tough for me to imagine hearing something like that from President Trump. But what's your take on this and how national populist the Trump administration is actually willing to be when it comes to frustrations with the health insurance industry?

REINGOLD: I think that this is a very interesting possible fracture between where the Trump base is and where the Trump administration is. Because, obviously, Pam Bondi has been some -- so Luigi supporters certainly would say Pam Bondi has been ruthless in pursuing, you know, the death penalty against Luigi Mangione, and yet, like I was saying, there is kind of this bipartisan nature that Steve Bannon, of all people, is speaking to when he says, hey, if you don't address income inequality, you could have a lot more Luigis.

And so there are kind of -- the base, the MAGA base, is really upset about healthcare actually. When you look at polling, when you look at Republican voters, there's a lot more support for things like Medicaid than you would think. And so even though the Trump administration certainly sees Luigi as a foe and no doubt a murderer, it's not exactly where all of the base is.

TAPPER: So, that's really interesting. And you talked to -- you were talking about this discord group centered around Mangione. For those who don't know Discord, it's like a chat room where a lot of gamers talk to friends. It's where people organize protests on Luigi Mangione's behalf. His supporters, the supporters of an accused murder are finding a community center around him and these people are left, right, and center.

[18:35:09]

REINGOLD: Oh, yes.

TAPPER: Tell us more about that.

REINGOLD: Yes. I mean, it's probably about a community of a thousand. I was able to use their usernames, little details, you know, I don't want to give away the secrets of how I trace the identities, but, in some ways, it's surprising who's in there, in some ways, not. There's a Columbia graduate in there, a cashier from Utah, people from all walks of life going throughout their day commenting on T.V. shows that reminded them of Luigi, responding to things with green emojis because they consider green the color of his movement. They've created all sorts of inside jokes about his various defense members.

And I think that for a generation, most of them are gen Z or millennial, but for a generation stunted by the pandemic, this is their idea of connection.

TAPPER: Well, there's certainly a lot of anger towards the health insurance industry that is well-founded, but obviously murder not the solution.

Olivia Reingold, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

REINGOLD: Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: Coming up, the lessons of COVID in the classroom and argument why closing schools may have done more harm than good.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is considering removing the COVID vaccine from the recommended immunization list for children. Kennedy has floated debunked vaccine conspiracies in the past, but studies show that most children are unlikely to become severely ill or die from COVID-19, which brings me to my next guest, his book, An Abundance of Caution, American Schools, the Virus, and A Story of Bad Decisions, examine school closures during the Pandemic.

And David Zweig joins us now. David, thanks so much for joining us. So, you're a parent. You start this book talking about what you saw your own kids go through during the start of these school closures because of COVID. Tell me about that experience and how it led you to this project.

DAVID ZWEIG, AUTHOR, AN ABUNDANCE OF CUATION, AMERICAN SCHOOLS, THE VIRUS, AND A STORY OF BAD DECISIONS: Yes. Early on, I was like, most people in the New York area, we locked down, the kids were home, everyone was home. And I watched them basically wilting away in the kind of gray light of their Chromebooks. And I knew, I was like, this isn't going to work over a long period of time. And there wasn't any real plan, but I went along with it and things changed toward the end of April.

You may remember the flatten the curve meme. We had 15 days to, you know, slow the spread. By the end of April, cases in New York had dropped more than 50 percent or something to that effect. And I said, great, they're going to send the kids back to school. We did it. We flattened the curve and they didn't go back. And that's what sort of led me on this path.

When we achieved what we were supposed to achieve, we did what we were told. But then the proverbial goalposts got moved and I watched my kids who were in third grade and fifth grade at the time, and I knew this just wasn't going to work at well. And then I began to think about all the other kids across the country, particularly kids who had fewer resources than mine and. I knew this wasn't going to work out well.

TAPPER: It sounds like you went through -- well, I mean, I went through a very similar thing, my wife and I, and we felt like we were going crazy. You reached a conclusion fairly early in your book about how our leaders weren't all following sound research during this crisis. You write, quote, during this type of crisis, the government was supposed to operate akin to a classical orchestra, have a conductor, follow the written music. Instead, we got a jam band a two- year long adlibbed guitar solo, unquote. What were you the most frustrated with when you looked into this yourself for this book?

ZWEIG: For me, what I'm most interested in, it's sort of an epistemological question where we ask ourselves, how do we know it is true? How do we look at evidence? And I know this is hard for a lot of people to accept, but the reality is that our public health establishment. Really divorced itself from what's known as evidence- based medicine or evidence-based public health. We just sort of reached escape velocity at pretty early on in particular related to kids in schools where they were not following the evidence and not only not following it, they were ignoring evidence to the contrary that showed that opening schools was not harmful for kids, and, importantly, it was not going to increase case rates in the community either.

TAPPER: And you don't direct all your blame at the government, federal or state or local. You critique the news media as well for failing to question decisions along the way. Do you think that things would've turned out differently if journalists had been more skeptical of government officials and health authorities?

ZWEIG: Absolutely. This is a really big thread in my book where I take people through these case -- basically case studies where you see these lengthy articles in The New York Times and elsewhere, where, typically, journalists, our job is to be really skeptical of those in power. You think of like big business, the Defense Department, the church, whatever it may be, yet that skepticism vanished during the pandemic. And you had these articles where there were all these claims made by, quote/unquote experts, or sometimes they weren't even attributed to anyone. It just said experts say, but there was no investigation as to whether these claims had evidence behind them.

So, we were in a very bad place where you had much of the legacy media basically acting as a megaphone for those in power rather than acting as a filter where they were going to investigate the claims that were being made. And the result was we had a deeply misinformed public and we had millions and millions of kids, healthy children, in America kept out of school. Some kids didn't step foot into a classroom for more than a year. Well, at the same time, there were adults, you know, down the street having a beer in a bar or at a restaurant. This was a radical situation and I don't think our country is fully reckoned with it, and that's why I wrote this book.

[18:45:00]

TAPPER: All right. The book is "An Abundance of Caution: American Schools, the Virus and a Story of Bad Decisions". David Zweig, congratulations on the book. A really important

conversation.

DAVID ZWEIG, AUTHOR, "AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION": Thank you so much, Jake. I appreciate you having me on.

TAPPER: It's a Friday vibe kind of question. Where is your happy place? Why some of our favorite stars are showing off spots that are personal to them. I'm going to talk to the actor Alan Cumming, about his happy place, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our pop culture lead today, a new CNN original series called "My Happy Place", where celebrities take you to their favorite places. Episode one features Emmy and Tony-winning actor, host, activist Alan Cumming. You know him from hit shows such as "The Traitors" more recently.

I know him well as Eli Gold in "The Good Wife", and, of course, "Cabaret" for a '90s throwback, we all remember that.

Now, the Scotland born Cumming is taking viewers with him to the Scottish islands, a place he has visited since childhood. Here's a little preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN CUMMING, ACTOR & ACTIVIST: I feel the spirit of my granny whenever I return to Inverness. She was hilarious and always up for a good time.

So when I'm back, I always try to relive some of the fun we had. And it always starts here.

[18:50:00]

I used to do this with my granny. A little boy. Find the best bouncy spot and it's not in the middle. No. This side. No. I must look so insane.

Oh, yes. Small pleasures. Oh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That is so great.

Alan, welcome.

It's a, first of all, so easy to imagine you as a little boy. Not just because you still have a boyish face, but you're really in touch with what you were doing back then.

CUMMING: Yes, clearly.

TAPPER: You should know you have some superfans on my staff. What inspired you to sign on to this venture?

CUMMING: I just, you know, I get asked you a lot of sort of travel things, and I do enjoy going to new places and finding out things. But it was it was the idea of going back to somewhere that gives you joy. And I really -- I really do feel joyful when I'm in that area of Scotland.

And so, yeah, it was just lovely to sort of go there and go to a lot of places that I already knew really well and just, you know, it was -- it was a no brainer, really.

TAPPER: Well, you're a New Yorker now, right? I mean, does it is it a real shock when you go back to Scotland?

CUMMING: I'm actually a sort of what do you call me? I'm bicontinental, Jake.

TAPPER: Okay.

CUMMING: I have places -- you know, I sort of think of myself living in New York and in and in Scotland. Not far from where actually, you know, I was -- I was in this show, actually. So, I'm back and forth all the time. I now run a theater in Scotland as well, in the Pitlochry Festival Theater. I'm an artistic director there.

So, I go back and forth all the time, and I actually love the combo of New York City and the Highlands of Scotland. It's the perfect sort of are kind of fusion. And yeah, it keeps me sort of I love it, I love I mean, the traveling is a lot, but I go on the, the sleeper train, which I love as well. It's so romantic. You get off the train at 6:16 a.m. at Pitlochry in the morning, and you sort of go through this forest and there's my theater. So, it's pretty magical.

TAPPER: So a lot of us watching because this is the great American melting pot, have Scottish roots. I have Scottish roots. I'm a member of the of the MacDowell or the Macdougall clan. I have a tartan at home. Well, the Macdougalls, the Macdougall.

CUMMING: Which one?

TAPPER: Well, Macdougall.

CUMMING: Yeah, because McDowells are different.

TAPPER: Yeah. But, you know, anyway, some of the intermarriages of the McDowells and Macdougalls. Anyway, I'm a Macdougall. We're the clan Macdougall.

I have the tartan at home. What do you want? Americans watching your trip to Scotland, where I've never been. What do you want us to take away from it?

CUMMING: That it's a country full of history and full of tradition and very proud of its past. Incredibly proud of it's past. And there aren't the sort of the skeletons in the cupboard in its past. In the same way as, you know, we have in America. But also it is a very forward thinking and a very progressive country.

I mean, it was fascinating to me. Just the other week, I was the grand marshal of the Tartan Day parade here in New York City, and I was marching up Sixth Avenue with lots of pipe bands and all these different people celebrating Scotland, celebrating all the values of Scotland and one avenue across American people were demonstrating are, you know, we were celebrating things like freedom of speech holding the ability we have to hold our government and power to account. The fact that we have healthcare and education for all, and the fact that we all believe in a safety net and a one block away, Americans were -- were protesting the very lack of those things.

So I think it's -- it was fascinating to me as an American and as a Scot to have that sort of dichotomy, you know, being a part of both those things. And I feel like what I love about showing Americans Scotland, I say we have all that, we have the beauty, but we also have a very progressive country that is kind and looks after each other and is caring. And if that is possible, I think it's easy to forget nowadays that it is possible to live in a caring society, and we have the power to make that happen.

TAPPER: Alan Cumming, thank you so much. Congratulations on the show.

The all-new CNN original series, "MY HAPPY PLACE", premieres this Sunday night, April 27th, 10:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN.

Coming up next, the companies that are already passing on higher prices to consumers ahead of the tariffs kicking in next week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:58:42]

TAPPER: Our last leads now, we're going to start in the money lead. I hope you got your orders in, because the super discount fast fashion online stores Temu and Shein just raised their prices ahead of pending tariffs going into effect next week. Temu and Shein get most of their products from China. So far, no clear reason why some products got the higher price and others did not.

In our national lead, please welcome new shell-ebrities at the Philadelphia Zoo, four baby Galapagos tortoises. The proud parents are two of the zoo's oldest residents, both estimated to be around 100 years old.

In our sports lead, will Shedeur Sanders get drafted in tonight's second round of the NFL draft? Experts were frankly stunned when the former Colorado quarterback and son of hall of famer Deion Sanders did not get picked in the first round.

But of course, historically, round one is not everything. Super bowl champion Jalen Hurts from the amazing world champion Eagles, was the 53rd pick in 2020. Seven-time champion Tom Brady, who maybe you've heard of, was chosen 199th overall when he entered the league.

Coming up Sunday on "STATE OF THE UNION", Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins. That's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon only here on CNN.

I have two books coming out. One is coming out in just a few days next month, May 20th. "Original Sin", about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and the cover up of his decline. Then in October, "Race Against Terror", about the hunt to prosecute an al Qaeda terrorist who killed Americans on this day, April 25th, 2003, and wanted to kill more. You can check out both books at jaketapper.com and preorder them there.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, listen to the show whence you get your podcast.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. See you Monday.