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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Tariff Loophole Expires, Raising Cost Of Cheap Chinese Goods Online; Secretary Of State Rubio Now Holds Four Government Positions; Prince Harry Says King Charles No Longer Speaks To Him; Trump: This Is An Economic Transition Period. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 02, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, some good news today when it comes to the U.S economy, but are these developments enough to cancel out the tariff uncertainty and potential trade wars coming? We're live at one of the busiest ports in the U.S. with the numbers you need to know.

Plus, what CNN is learning about the witnesses expected to take the stand when Sean Diddy Combs goes on trial next week. The expected list includes former sexual partners, a male sex worker, and one of Diddy's business associates.

Also, the stunning and honestly sad revelations from Prince Harry today. He says his father, King Charles, no longer speaks to him. Does the prince still think there's a chance he could reconcile with the royal family?

And we're getting a look at the preparations underway at the Vatican today, including the iconic chimney that will announce to the world when a new pope has been chosen.

The Lead Tonight, good news on the jobs front, but American consumers could soon begin to feel the impact of President Trump's trade war in a real way as a major shipping loophole on inexpensive goods from China has officially expired.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is live near the Port of New York and New Jersey for us. Vanessa?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The expiration of this loophole will impact millions of Americans and millions of packages that come into the U.S. from China by air and by sea, into ports like the one behind me at the Port of New York and New Jersey.

This exemption called the de minimis exemption was an exemption of tariffs and taxes and inspection on any products that were worth less than $800 coming from China. That has now gone away. So, this will impact things like a small spool of yarn to photography equipment, to furniture. U.S. consumers on e-commerce platforms by 80 percent of their products under this de minimus exemption, and the majority come from China.

And it's worth noting that the majority of these items are shipped in every single day. About 4 million packages are processed by Customs and Border Protection. Companies like Shein, Temu and Ali Express have created entire business models based on these products. And these companies say that they're going to have to change their business model, raise prices, and also include on their website for transparency just what these tariffs are doing to prices.

Now, consumers are going to be met with higher prices in the next couple weeks as these products start to make their way across by air and by sea. Consumers should expect, Jake, to pay 2.5 times more for these cheaper products that are now being hit with that 145 percent tariff from China.

TAPPER: Vanessa, the American footwear industry issued a warning to the White House today. What did they have to say?

YURKEVICH: Yes, this letter just coming out from Footwear Distributors and Retailers of America, declaring an emergency, saying that these tariffs are going to put hundreds of businesses out of work and going to kill thousands of jobs. They also go on to say that they expect empty store shelves because it's going to be too expensive to bring shoes, footwear into the United States. We import here in the U.S. 99 percent of our footwear. The majority come from Malaysia and China.

This letter that went to the administration was signed by major footwear companies, like Nike, Crocs, and Steve Madden. The expectation, again, for consumers is that to buy a pair of Nike shoes will presumably cost 2.5 times more. The footwear association is declaring this an emergency and saying these companies need exemptions in order to survive, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes. My team in here, we're all sneaker heads and we're not excited about the -- what's going to happen to our hobby here, are we fellows?

All right, Vanessa Yurkevich, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

I want to go to CNN's, Jeff Zeleny at the White House and Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill, as CNN's learning new details about what President Trump included in his budget proposal for Congress. And, Jeff, let's be clear here, the president's budget that he unveiled today, it's just a proposal. Congress ultimately has control over the purse strings. But what does President Trump call for?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, what it does, it really offers the first real look at how dramatically the president would like to reshape government. He's been talking about it. Of course, we've seen cutbacks. But this is actually how these government programs would be funded and they're dramatic cuts really across the board.

And as you said, these are just proposals. This will be hashed out by Congress. But already both sides are raising some questions about some of these. Let's take a look at just a handful of some of the programs. On housing, for example, deep cuts in housing programs. In education, we already know the president wants to eliminate the Department of Education, but these are deep cuts as well.

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But at places like the NIH, the National Institute of Health, a third of the budget is proposed by the White House to be cut, at the CDC, of course, playing a dramatic role in every one of our lives every day, proposed 40 percent cut in the CDC budget, at the EPA as well. So, Jake, really across the board, the non-defense part of this budget is really a proposed to be slashed.

But the question here is, is the White House going to be able to get Republicans on board with this? Will some Democrats come on board as well? This is going to be the biggest test yet of this administration. Republicans control the branches of -- the legislative branch and the executive branch, but will they be able to come together to pass a budget? That is very much an open question, Jake.

TAPPER: And, Laura -- Lauren, rather, how are Republican lawmakers reacting to the proposal, the budget proposal on Capitol Hill?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, this is really where the rubber hits the road. The White House can propose these kinds of drastic cuts. And there are some conservatives on Capitol Hill who are applauding the White House's actions today, saying that they want to act on Capitol Hill in order to enact this kind of stark budget that we saw from the president.

But at the same time, there are a lot of Republicans who are sounding the alarm on the fact that defense spending, in their view, is being held at the same levels as it was last fiscal year. That's a huge problem for defense hawks.

Now, the White House is arguing that there's additional defense spending in the president's broader agenda on Capitol Hill that they're moving forward right now, but Republicans are arguing that's not enough.

And here's some really notable voices. We're hearing from Senator Susan Collins, who's the chairwoman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said, I have serious objections to the proposal freeze in our defense funding given the security challenges we face. Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell says, America cannot expect our allies to heed calls for greater annual defense spending if we are unwilling to lead by example.

Fortunately, presidential budget requests are just that, requests. Mississippi Senator Roger Wicker, who chairs the Armed Services Committee, says President Trump successfully campaigned on peace through strength, but his advisers at the Office of Management and Budget were apparently not listening.

Now, I think those are some really stark warnings from some key Republicans in the United States Senate. And just as a reminder, yes, Republicans control the House, they control the Senate, but they do not have 60 votes in the Senate to approve spending bills unilaterally. That means they're going to need some Democratic votes, and you can expect how this is being received by Democrats on Capitol Hill. Jake?

TAPPER: No, I can. Lauren Fox, Jeff Zeleny, thanks to both of you.

Let's bring in Stephen Moore. He's a visiting fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation and is a former economic adviser for President Trump in the first term. Thanks so much for joining us, Stephen. Good to see you again.

So, President Trump has said that there might be a period of pain for American consumers as they adjust to these tariffs and remake the American economy, bringing more manufacturing jobs to the U.S., et cetera. Earlier this week, the president gave an example of that pain is kids might only get to have 2 dolls instead of 30 dolls. I've heard people criticize that as kind of tone deaf. What do you think?

STEPHEN MOORE, SENIOR VISITING FELLOW, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, look, Trump is trying to make a big kind of reorganization of the American economy, make us less dependent on China. You mentioned all of the footwear and the apparel and other products that come in from China. The American people have tended to agree with Trump that China is a menace and they are a country that is communist and they are building their military in a very aggressive way.

And so I think most Americans would like to seek, Jake, decoupling of the economy from China. But this has been choppy water, no question about it, for the last couple of months with respect to these tariffs. That's why I thought this jobs report today was kind of a breath of relief because it was a good jobs report. And so far, at least, it doesn't look like Americans are losing their jobs because of them. What's going to happen in the next month? I don't know.

TAPPER: Yes. Well, historically, correct me if I'm wrong, have been skeptical of tariffs. You're more of a free market kind of guy. Right after Trump announced these tariffs on April 2nd, what he called liberation day, you called them a sledgehammer, but then you said last week that Trump might be proving you're wrong on the tariffs.

What are your concerns about what might happen in the next, let's say, two months? Because what some economists are warning about is emptier shelves, higher prices, especially with China and the 145 percent tariffs.

MOORE: So, yes, I am a free trade guy and I have been skeptical of these tariffs, but I have to say that if, and this is a big if, Trump can get these deals done with countries like Japan and India and Canada and the rest, I'm told those are in the works, we'll see in the weeks ahead how close they are to getting these deals.

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But that could actually lead to two things, Jake. Number one, a more level playing field, which I think all Americans would like to see. It is true that the United States has lower tariffs than most of the countries we trade with, but also you could potentially isolate China, decouple the world economy from China, and I think most Americans would agree that might be a good idea.

I don't know, Jake. Are you willing to pay $2 or $3 more for those sneakers if they're not made in China?

TAPPER: Yes. So, the criticism I've heard from other people on the argument you just made is that the aggressive measures that need to be taken against China because of the intellectual property theft and all of the things that they do to violate just like norms and standards, the United States needs all its allies to be in on that fight. And by doing all of these tariffs at the same time to every place in the world almost, it limits the ability of the U.S. to target China. What do you think about that argument?

MOORE: I think that's a valid argument. I mean, we are going to -- if we're going to win this trade war against China, you're right, we're going to need all our allies behind us. But it's also true at the same time that some of these countries really do have pretty abusive trade practices against the United States as well. But I'm hoping that we get a series of trade deals so we can do just what you suggested, Jake, so we can really unify the rest of the world behind isolating China.

And we're going to really find out, I think, over the course of the next four to eight weeks, you know, what countries are really our allies. Are they going to get behind the United States or are they going to get behind China? I think in the end of the day, you know, Trump is a pretty darn good negotiator. That's one thing I've learned from being around him for the last eight years. I'm going to put my money on Trump that he's going to triumph.

But we are going to see -- and, look, the stock market has been up a lot the last two weeks, but I think we should all anticipate there's going to be choppiness. There's going to be big up days and big down days as we go through this. Hopefully, in two or three months time, we'll have an America where we have fair trade deals, where we have our allies behind us and we create more jobs here in the USA.

Remember, Trump is talking about adding tariffs on things that are made outside of the United States, but lowering tariffs on things that are made in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania. A lot of Americans think that's a good idea.

TAPPER: I mean, I think everybody wants a more -- anybody sane wants a more level playing field. I think there are just questions about how we get there.

But, Stephen Moore, always, good to have you on, thank you so much.

MOORE: Thank you. Jake.

TAPPER: Secretary of State Marco Rubio was spotted at the White House this morning, this is just one day after Trump announced that Rubio is also now the acting national security adviser at the same time, he is secretary of state, at the same time he is doing a couple other things. Is it really possible for one man to handle these four jobs?

Plus, we've got exclusive new reporting about who is expected to take the stands when Sean Diddy Combs criminal trial starts next week.

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TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, a question for the White House, how long will U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio continue to juggle four different jobs? Because in addition to his primary role as U.S. secretary of state, which is kind of a busy gig, Rubio has now been asked to add interim national security adviser into the mix, also quite taxing. This is after President Trump ousted Mike Waltz from that role. And that's on top of Rubio also already serving as acting national archivist, also a full-time job, and the acting administrator for USAID, also a full-time job.

Here now is CNN Senior Political and Global Affairs Commentator Rahm Emanuel. Rahm, thanks so much for being here. So, you've worked in the White House and you've been a mayor, and you've been an ambassador, and you've been a member of Congress.

How can Marco Rubio do all of these jobs at the same time?

RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: He can't. That's a full stop. Look, the two that are in conflict is a national security adviser is supposed to convene and bring all the streams of intelligence, defense, state, probably Commerce Department too, because of, you know, export controls, into a consolidated whole so the president can make some options. It runs a process that is not putting their thumb on either scale, on either side of that scale.

Basically now, the secretary of state gets two votes. And a lot of times, look, that's the process, which is state is over here, the Defense Department and Pentagon are over here. Intel is giving you not really a clear picture, but some information, you have to weigh different equities. And the idea that you're going to have somebody run a fair process where the State Department is one voice among many, and yet the person running that process is one of those voices, it's not. But this is not a person that wants an effective process.

The most turnover, whether the turnstile, is a national security adviser. Why? That's process. And this is a person that likes chaos.

TAPPER: He's certainly not one for process. He's more impulsive and there's so much going on.

EMANUEL: That's an understatement.

TAPPER: In the national security realm, you will have -- they're trying to negotiate a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine, they're trying to negotiate something with Iran, there's tension between India and Pakistan. How do you see this shakeup affecting all of this? EMANUEL: There's one thing you left out. You have China doing things in the region that they've never done as recently off the coast of Sydney, stuff they just did in the South China Sea with the Philippines right after we had done our joint exercise, that is an annual exercise with Japan and Australia participating in protecting the Philippine area.

So you have a number of things going on, and we're not -- as far as I can tell, we're MIA in South China Sea. We're MIA in the Sea of Japan and the -- obviously, President Putin is looking at right now at President Trump and says, the guy's more anxious for a deal than I am.

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Now, everybody says, oh, he is so smart of the art of the deal. Well, he should study the art of the negotiation. And he's not handling the negotiations well because he wants to do something right now to fill the news cycle, which is not how this gets solved.

And so I think in many things, like informed policy, you don't have the luxury of choosing and they have too many things going on without enough focus and discipline, which adds to your first question, when you have a national security adviser wearing four hats and one of them is secretary of state, you have a problem.

TAPPER: So, in addition to all that, there's a lot of uncertainty around the U.S. economy, with all the tariffs.

The current data appears solid and there was a stronger than expected jobs report today. Economist Oren Cass was on our program yesterday. And while he acknowledges that there's some disruptions as the tariffs on China take effect, he argued that it's a good thing. Take a listen.

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OREN CASS, CHIEF ECONOMIST, AMERICAN COMPASS: We obviously became totally dependent in some cases on Chinese production for some things, and that's not a good thing. And reversing that is going to have costs.

But I think it's very encouraging to see us moving in a direction where we make some tradeoffs and we say, look, we dug ourselves a whole and we're finally starting to climb back out of it.

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TAPPER: What do you think?

EMANUEL: Well, as somebody who's been -- you know, look, when it comes to China, you have a country and why the two can't live together like they used to, where intellectual property theft and economic espionage is core to the business model. The problem with the tariffs is China was the enemy in the world economy. They were exporting their domestic problems and destroying other countries. Steel industry, aluminum industry, electronics industry, they were the problem. By making the tariffs, what we did, we became the problem. Second, we have to be more discreet. What China does on toys or clothing is one -- and use some other items versus semiconductors, autos, those are not the same products. And then tariffs are not the economic toolbox. They can be a tool in the economic toolbox. What are you doing to support research and development? This administration is just destroying it. What are you doing to build up a robotics industry? Because tariffs are so inconsistent, they're destroying it, whatever there exists.

You want to build a high tech, high advanced manufacturing industry along semiconductors, autos, other types of machinery and machine and tools. That is a place to work where the tool of tariffs are complementary to other elements in the research, in the economic toolbox.

The number one problem we have in manufacturing today, there's a half a million jobs with help wanted signs. Train people for those jobs. That would be a half a million people today in manufacturing with help wanted signs. That would be, number one, down payment. Research and development, rather than destroying it, support it with both the tax areas, also with our universities. Third, open up other markets and using their both regulatory reform as well as the other assets we have to open up markets for U.S. export.

I don't think this notion that on China that just tariffs across the board as if every sector of the economy is the same. It's not the same to America's independence and America's economic renaissance. We have a manufacturing base. We should be investing in it. Number one thing to do, fill those help wanted signs.

TAPPER: All right. Rahm Emanuel, thanks so much.

Stunning comments from Prince Harry today revealing that his father, King Charles, won't even speak to him Aaymore. Is there any hope for a royal reconciliation?

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TAPPER: In our World Lead, Prince Harry revealed today that his father, you know, the king of England, no longer speaks with him, but Prince Harry still hopes he can reconcile with his father and the rest of the royal family.

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PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: I would love reconciliation with my family. I've always, -- you know, there's no point in continuing to fight anymore. As I said, life is precious. I don't know how much longer my father has. You know, he won't speak to me because of this security stuff. But it would be nice to reconcile.

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TAPPER: The security stuff that Prince Harry just referred to is a court case over the British government's decision to strip Prince Harry of his police protection after he stepped down as a senior royal.

CNN's Max Fosters in London. Max, let's start with this royal rift. What are you hearing from your sources are? Is there a chance of reconciliation?

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: It really doesn't feel like it. I think if Prince Harry wanted to reconcile with the royal family, then he couldn't have done anything worse in a way than going on T.V. and talking again about these deeply private, personal issues, which is what the royal family doesn't want out there in the public.

Frankly, we got quite a curt statement from the palace and not addressing any of the personal issues, just dealing with the case itself. And I think the king feels that if he had got involved in this case, he would have undermined his constitutional duty, which is to say out of government matters. He feels this was a government decision, wasn't anything to do with him, and he couldn't have got involved.

But it's very sad, isn't it, to see how Prince Harry comes across in that interview. He's emotional. There's some anger there. He's frustrated and he is just not going to let this lie. This rift is very much there, but it comes down to this security issue. He says that's why his father isn't speaking to him. It just isn't being resolved.

TAPPER: It's just weird as an outsider to look at this and think, oh, they'll talk to Prince Andrew, but they won't talk to Prince Harry.

This security issue is such an emotional one for Prince Harry.

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Why?

FOSTER: He genuinely feels he's under threat. I've just had an additional statement sent from his office just recently, and he talks about how in recent years, my family and I have been subjected to well-documented neo-Nazi and extremist threats, including from Al- Qaeda. So, he feels that if he -- he has been to the U.K. himself that he can't bring his family over.

He also did talk about in this statement that he has tried to resolve this privately, but it hasn't been possible. So, that explains perhaps why he's gone on to T.V. to talk about it. I think the wider world looks at this and sees a family breakdown. I think he sees this case as him against the British establishment. His father sits at the center of that establishment. It's treating him unfairly. They're trying to punish him, I think, very clearly from the British establishment today, from the judiciary to the monarchy, even to government. They feel he wasn't treated unfairly.

TAPPER: And, Max, we know that King Charles is battling cancer. We don't know what kind of cancer. We don't know much more about it than that. How much are we supposed to read into Prince Harry saying, I don't know how much longer my father has?

FOSTER: Well, I mean it was a very stark comment, wasn't it, to say something like that. I think he was probably speaking to the fact that I would like to know how he is and I can't ask him. It does speak to perhaps him thinking it's more serious than the rest of us realize. But if he's not speaking to him, I don't know how he's got that intelligence. It was a remarkable thing to say, and, you know, it's just very sad to see, isn't it?

TAPPER: It is. And I don't think there are very many people on their deathbed who think, boy, I really wish I'd ignored my son more. I don't think that's the thought that people have.

Max Foster, thanks so much.

In our Law and Justice Lead, new details about the witnesses who could take the stand at the trial of Sean Diddy Combs that begins in the coming weeks. Former sexual partners, a business associate and a male sex worker are all expected to appear.

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister joins me now. Elizabeth, of course, is the one who first broke the story wide open when she broke the news and showed the world that videotape that launched all of this fallout, just incredible journalism. You did one of the best pieces of journalism of 2024.

What do you know about these witnesses?

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Jake. So, my latest reporting, I am hearing from sources, some of the witnesses who may be called to testify during this trial. Now, the witness list has not been provided by the court. I am hearing that it will not be made public. But in our first indication of who we may see testify against Sean Diddy Combs, I am hearing that there are going to be former sexual partners, a former employee, and also a male sex worker.

Now, we do know that the star witness in this case is Cassie Ventura. She is the woman that we saw in that horrifying video that our team broke here at CNN. She is an ex-girlfriend of Sean Combs, and she's a musician. Now, she is the star witness.

She is testifying under her real name, but I hear that there are three other government key witnesses who will be called to the stand. The judge has allowed them to testify under pseudonyms, Jake, in order to protect their anonymity. But in a recent filing to the court, we did learn that victim 3 actually does want to testify under her real name. We are not going to reveal those names, even though I do know from my sources, just because of that judge's order with the anonymity that is being granted to them.

But, Jake, you remember that the government alleges that at the center of this case is these freak-offs, which the government has described essentially as drug-fueled sex parties were Combs and others forced women into having sex sometimes with male sex workers. So, it is interesting that we will hear from one of those sex workers on the stand.

TAPPER: Sean Combs is facing 66, 0 total civil lawsuits related to these allegations. What is the criminal trial specifically focusing on?

WAGMEISTER: Yes. So, he's facing more than 60, Jake.

TAPPER: Oh, okay.

WAGMEISTER: And I hear from sources that there are more coming, more that are planned to be filed. But it's a great question that you ask because the criminal trial is completely separate from these civil cases. So, a lot of people in the public, they're thinking, every celebrity who's ever come in contact with Sean Combs is going to be at this trial. They're thinking that there's over 60 accusers, so we're going to hear from all of them. That's not the case. This case is going to be limited in scope. So, of course, the jury's only going to be deliberating on the testimony and the evidence that is presented to them in those four walls in a courtroom. So it's not this whole mountain of civil cases that he faces.

But one final point, Jake, I do want to note that after this case is done, regardless of he is acquitted or if he is convicted, those civil cases still stand.

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So, he does have a mountain of legal troubles ahead of him.

TAPPER: All right. Elizabeth Wagmeister, thank you so much.

Our small business series takes us to New York tonight, President Trump's hometown. How could wine and spirits be affected by Trump's tariffs and what can they do about it? We'll find out next.

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TAPPER: Our Money Lead now, we continue our series talking to small business owners across the country, coast to coast, about Trump's tariffs. Some are feeling optimistic, some support them, many are not.

My next guest is actually taking action to try to end the tariffs. Victor Owen Schwartz joins us now. He's the founder of the wine and spirits company, VOS Selections, in New York, one of several small businesses suing the Trump administration. His attorney, Jeff Schwab, joins us as well.

And, Victor, you import wines from all over the world. Obviously, there cannot be domestic production of champagne or Bordeaux.

[18:40:02]

It has to come from abroad. Can you give us a sense of what the price tag was for some of these shipments prior to tariffs and now?

VICTOR OWEN SCHWARTZ, FOUNDER, VOS SELECTIONS: Well, in terms of the customs and duty, we were paying, you know, a few bucks a case. Now, we'll be looking more like $15 to $20 a case. So, if you're looking at a container with a thousand cases, you know, do the math. You're about $20,000-plus dollars just on a container, which you have to pay upfront.

TAPPER: When and why did you decide to sue the Trump administration?

SCHWARTZ: Well, that's kind of a funny story. I kind of backed into it. A family member told me that his ex-law professor, Ilya Somin, who works with Jeff Schwab, who's the lead attorney on the case, that Ilya Somin was bringing a case on the tariffs. Of course, my ears perked up when I heard about that and I thought, boy, I want to give him a piece of my mind to tell him what's going on in the wine business, because I don't think it was getting a lot of attention.

So, I remember it was a Sunday and I sent Ilya an email and said, you know, we're really on the front line here in the wine business as importers. We're kind of the canaries in the coal mine. And we've got a few things to tell you about what's going on here. And he liked what I had to say. And a couple of days later, I met with Jeff and told him, you know, my tales of woe about what the tariffs were going to do to us and how impactful in a very, very negative way they were going to be.

And next day, Jeff Schwab said, do you want to join our case? And I said, okay, that sounds good. I'll throw my hat in the ring. And I wasn't expecting that. But then a few days later, they said, hey, would you want to be the lead plaintiff? And that's when I kind of freaked out. But I thought, put up a shut up. So, I put up and joined the case and I'm the plaintiff.

TAPPER: Jeff, you're representing not only VOS but also four other businesses in this lawsuit. Why do you think the Trump administration is overreaching with these tariffs? They might say, look, we have to do this because look at the unfair tariffs that foreign countries put on, say, bourbon, and so we have to -- this is the way to even the playing field.

JEFFREY SCHWAB, SENIOR COUNSEL AND INTERIM DIRECTOR OF LITIGATION, LIBERTY JUSTICE CENTER: Well, the Congress has the authority to issue tariffs and Congress hasn't acted. The president is asserting authority under an act, the IEEPA, International Emergency Economic Powers Act, but it doesn't authorize the president to issue tariffs.

TAPPER: And, Victor, the pro-tariff argument from the administration and others is that tariffs will result in higher domestic manufacturing and production. Obviously, as I noted, you can't do that with champagne. You can't do that with Bordeaux. But what do you say to those who say like, look, I mean there are unfair tariffs against our friends in Tennessee and the fine bourbon they make there or in Kentucky, or, you know, and this will enable everyone ultimately to drop all the tariffs?

SCHWARTZ: Look, Jake, we had very low tariffs. We're all paying a few bucks for the importation exportation of product. Last I heard, in general, maybe it was a under 3 percent what the Europeans were charging us and what we were charging them.

So, the trade was flowing very, very easily. So, it's not going to do anything. If anything, it's going to negatively impact all domestic production because any domestic producer of spirits or wine depends on a national distribution system. And that national distribution system needs European and international products to keep their businesses afloat.

TAPPER: All right. Victor Owen Schwartz and Jeff Schwab, thanks so much. Good to hear from you both.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you so much, Jake.

TAPPER: Remember when the CIA tried to turn house cats into spies? Do you? Comedian Ed Helms does. He's here to take us through the history's dumpster fire of awful ideas by a lot of government officials.

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[18:48:12]

TAPPER: We're getting brand new sound of President Donald Trump in an interview on NBC.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWES ANCHOR: And that's my question. Long term, is it okay in the short term to have a recession?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, yeah, everything's okay. What we are -- I said this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: President Trump appearing to say a short-term recession is, quote/unquote, okay. Erin Burnett will have much more from this interview coming up at the top of the hour.

Turning to our pop culture lead, my next guest has made us laugh on TV as Andy Bernard on "The Office" and on the big screen as Stu Price from "The Hangover" movies. Also, of course, as a correspondent on "The Daily Show".

He also has a podcast where he takes a deep dive into some of history's most outrageous screw ups in his podcast "Snafu", which is also the inspiration for his brand new book, which just came out.

I sat down with actor and author Ed Helms to discuss his book "Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screwups".

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Mr. Helms, thanks so much for doing this.

ED HELMS, ACTOR AND AUTHOR: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you.

TAPPER: I appreciate it.

So, people out there know you're funny. They probably -- most people probably don't know what a history buff you are. What led you to write a book about history's biggest screw ups?

HELMS: Well, it started as a podcast. I have a "Snafu" podcast that started a couple of years ago, where three seasons in. I just -- I grew up in a in a home where curiosity was really valued. I was surrounded by National Geographics and world books, and -- and I loved digging into that stuff. When I decided to do a podcast, it was like, okay, well, history's an organic thing, but how do I make it funny?

TAPPER: Right?

HELMS: Well, I'll focus on the crazy things. The train wrecks, the car crashes of history that you can't look away from.

[18:50:03]

One of my favorite stories in the book is the time that we thought it would be real cool to shoot the moon with a nuclear missile. The thinking was, you know, this is this would be us flexing our nuclear posture. The Soviets will see that they'll be rattling in their boots, shaking in their boots.

TAPPER: Horrible idea.

HELMS: Hor -- so many reasons that's a bad idea. The -- probably the biggest is that it could very easily just result in the missile slingshotting around the moon and coming right back to earth.

TAPPER: What if we destroyed the moon? What happens to us then?

HELMS: I don't think we were at risk of destroying the moon, but it wasn't. It wouldn't even have enough of an impact on the moon to scare anybody. It just -- there's so many reasons. It was dumb.

TAPPER: And in fact, there's a lot of really bad ideas that you mine from that era, the Cold War era, specifically, a toymaker selling an atomic energy lab kit that actually has radioactive material. What you call this baby's first nuclear device?

HELMS: Sure.

TAPPER: The U.S. military accidentally dropping a bomb on Mars Bluff, South Carolina.

HELMS: Yeah.

TAPPER: And then, of course, the moon nuke.

HELMS: Yeah, the moon nuke. I mean, thank God, tragedy plus time equals comedy, because some of these things really are insane. And --

TAPPER: Do you think there's anything going on in the 50s that made them especially dangerously insane?

HELMS: I think that the '50s was a time when there was a lot of group think, and a lot of people kind of in enclosed bubbles where bad ideas were not shot down. They were built upon. And also, you know, the Cold War was really a time of incredible fear, both for individuals and institutional fear. And that rarely leads to good decision making.

TAPPER: The '60s also no slouch when it comes to bad ideas. And so they almost sound like they're from like an Austin Powers movie.

HELMS: Yes.

TAPPER: The CIAs project acoustic kitty spy cats, operation popeye to weaponize the weather. These were actual government funded programs.

HELMS: I think what these stories show us is that is that humanity gets through these things. At least these things. And so when we find ourselves in these moments, like right now, where things feel very, you know, divided or volatile or scary, we can look back and just be reminded, well, they got through that.

TAPPER: Right. So, this book does make me feel like, oh, we've -- we've always been idiots.

HELMS: That's it. We've always been idiots. And. And it's actually nice. It's a little bit refreshing to laugh at some of the idiocy. I've really -- some of the stories are tragic in there, but I've -- but with time, with distance and space, they have become funny. Or I've tried to just sort of find the comedy topspin for things. But -- but yes, like seeing human folly in, in a comedic context, I think kind of opens us up to look at the present moment or just look at moments in our lives that feel disastrous with a little bit, a little bit of a brighter take.

TAPPER: And can I give you a little? And you can steal this if you want. If you think its worthy of you.

HELMS: Okay.

TAPPER: Ready? Snafu, which is a situation normal all effed up comes from one of the greatest achievements of good in history, which is World War Two, right?

HELMS: Of course.

TAPPER: It comes from -- and that is the triumph of good over evil. I think it's fair to say that and so even in a situation where everything is constantly awful, so much so that you got a title from it.

HELMS: Yeah.

TAPPER: Like that there was a larger good that was achieved. HELMS: Absolutely. I love that take. It's a hot take.

TAPPER: It's yours. It's yours.

HELMS: Yeah. I'm going to run with it.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks so much for doing. The book is great. It's called "Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screwups". It's out now.

Ed Helms, thanks so much for joining us.

HELMS: Thanks for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Go buy that book. It's fun.

We are less than a week away from the conclave, in which the cardinals will pick the next pope. Today, we're getting a look at some of the preparations underway for this top secret meeting.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:58:43]

TAPPER: In our faith lead, new video shows Vatican workers installing the chimney that will show the papal smoke signals during next week's conclave. After every round of voting, the secret ballots are thrown into the fire. Black smoke will signal no decision yet. White smoke will announce that they have picked a new pope.

United Airlines International canceling 35 round trip flights out of Newark Liberty International Airport. The cuts coming after five straight days of delays and staffing shortages at Newark's air traffic control. Today alone, United canceled or delayed 170 flights, according to the website FlightAware.

And in sports, it's almost time to run for the roses. Tomorrow is the 150 horse, 151st Kentucky derby, and the favorite horse to win has a special place in our hearts. His name is Journalism. So grab your best derby hat and mix up some mint juleps. Unless you're heading down to Churchill Downs, where you can buy a special version of the drink for a cool $1,000. Proceeds go to charity.

Coming up Sunday on "STATE OF THE UNION", I'm going to talk with Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia and Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. That's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon only here on CNN.

I have two books coming out on May 20th, "Original Sin", about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and the cover up of his decline. And in October, "Race Against Terror", about the hunt to prosecute an Al Qaeda terrorist who killed Americans and was out to kill more. You can check them out at jaketapper.com. Preorder them, too.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. I'll see you Sunday morning.