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The Lead with Jake Tapper
President Trump Says "I Don't Know" On Upholding The Constitution; Rep. Jasmine Crockett (D-TX) Is Interviewed About Trump's Comments On Her, The Democratic Party And More; Former Vice President Pence Comments On Trump's Tariffs; Conclave To Elect Next Pope Starts On Wednesday; Trump Says He Wants 100 Percent Tariffs On Movies Made Outside U.S.; CNN Travels To Disputed Territory Between India & Pakistan. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired May 05, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Honestly, let's be real like the most basic of "Star Wars" fans. You probably noticed; he was holding a red light saber. I am sorry. What? As every true "Star Wars" fan knows that's a Sith lightsaber. Here's an explainer from the creator, George Lucas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUEL L. JACKSON, ACTOR: Who we had to talk to about your light color, the lightsaber color.
GEORGE LUCAS, FILMMAKER: Well, good guys are -- good guys are green and blue. Bad guys are red. That's just the way it works.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Jake Tapper, that is just the way it works in the "Star Wars" universe.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: You know I'm an absolutist on a lot of these things. For instance, you and I have gotten into it back and forth about Grogu who you call --
HUNT: Baby Yoda.
TAPPER: Yeah, it's not his name. His name is Grogu.
HUNT: Forever Baby Yoda.
TAPPER: And then of course -- but we do agree on Han, not only shooting first Han being the only one who shot, but that's a conversation I've been told I need to shut up about because it takes too long. Kasie, I'll see you --
HUNT: They absolutely do.
TAPPER: -- I'll see you back in "the Arena" tomorrow.
HUNT: See you tomorrow. TAPPER: In point of fact, upholding the Constitution for a president is not an optional thing. "The Lead" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRSTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS HOST: Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of The United States as president?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you mean you don't know? One day later, President Trump has yet to clarify that comment and his aides are brushing it off, but it could mean something, and it could mean something about the rule of law, and it could mean something about appealing rulings that he simply doesn't like.
Plus, an eighth straight day of delays and cancellations at Newark International Airport in New Jersey, and not helping matters, we're now learning air traffic controllers walked off the job over a shocking incident. We're live at Newark.
And lights, camera, tariffs. The president's plot twist when it comes to the film industry announcing 100 percent tariffs on movies made outside the United States. We're talking with a film producer about the potential impact.
Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. We begin with the president's shocking comments. In an interview with NBC, President Trump cast doubt over whether or not he needs to uphold his oath to the Constitution, you know, the one he took for the second time at the start of the second term just over a hundred days ago. There he is upholding the oath of the Constitution for context.
The discussion in this NBC interview turned to the U.S. Supreme Court order directing the Trump administration to, quote unquote, "facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia." That's the Salvadoran man who was in the U.S. illegally, was deported to a Salvadoran prison by the Trump administration despite a previous order by a judge prohibiting him from being sent back to El Salvador.
This has raised all kinds of questions on due process, which is protected in the Fifth and Fourteenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution. Both amendments, as written, apply to, quote, "persons." No mention of citizens. Even the late conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia seemed to agree that constitutional protections extend to persons, not just to citizens. In a 2014 interview, Scalia was asked if the five freedoms mentioned in the First Amendment applied to undocumented immigrants in the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIN SCALIA, FORMER ASSOCIATE JUSTICE, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Well, I think so. I think anybody who's present in The United States has protections under the United States Constitution. (END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So here's President Trump answering the question of whether non-citizens deserve due process under the Constitution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know. I'm not -- I'm not a lawyer. I don't know.
WELKER: Well, the Fifth Amendment sets --
TRUMP: I don't know. It seems -- it seems -- it might say that, but if you're talking about that, then we'd have to have a million or 2 million or 3 million trials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: He does not know, he says. Trump was pressed further. Even given those numbers, doesn't a president need to uphold the U.S. Constitution of The United States?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know. I have to respond by saying again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me and they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect your president to answer yes when asked if he or she needs to uphold the Constitution. But Trump's answer was, I don't know. Joining us now, Lawrence Tribe, constitutional law professor at Harvard Law School and co-founder of the American Constitution Society, which is a liberal law and policy organization. Professor Tribe, thanks for joining us. What do you make, of the fact that President Trump seemed stumped on this question of whether or not he has to uphold the U.S. Constitution when it comes to due process rights for undocumented migrants like Garcia?
LAWRENCE TRIBE, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR EMERITUS, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: You can't possibly be stumped. You don't have to be a lawyer. All you have to do is be able to read. It says that all persons are entitled to due process.
[17:05:04]
And it certainly says that all officials of the state and federal governments are bound to support the Constitution. It's as simple as that. He takes an oath to uphold it, and then he says he doesn't know if he has to uphold it. That's totally ridiculous, and it's dangerous because it's trying to normalize the idea that he is outside and above the law. But nobody is above the law in this country.
TAPPER: We should note that the president said, and his staffers, his White House aides point to the fact that he said, that they're going to follow what the U.S. Supreme Court tells him to do. But so far, the Trump administration has been seeking ways to not follow, the court's orders to facilitate, as they asked him to do, the return of the undocumented migrant, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, saying its answer ties because he's in El Salvador. Do you think we're going to see more cases like this where the administration presents its own interpretation of court orders to claim compliance?
TRIBE: I'm afraid so because it's not just an interpretation. When the court says nine to nothing, that he's got to facilitate the return of Garcia. And then Stephen Miller, who by the way isn't a lawyer, says, oh, Mr. President, that doesn't mean you have to do anything. That shows that they can just turn the thing upside down. It's an Alice in Wonderland where -- world where if they don't want to do what the Supreme Court tells them to do, they pretend the Supreme Court told them the opposite.
That's not the world that any of us grew up in. And it's a world that is made for dictators, but this country is not ruled by a dictator. It's all very simple. So, it doesn't need a law degree to understand.
TAPPER: Yeah. And you mentioned White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, who's obviously very influential. He put out a definition of due process on, Twitter or X this morning. He said, quote, "the right of due process is to protect citizens from their government, not to protect foreign trespassers from removal. Due process guarantees the right of a criminal defendant facing prosecution, not an illegal alien facing deportation," unquote. Your response?
TRIBE: My response is that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Due process, as Justice Scalia said, protects all persons in the country, aliens, citizens, all persons. And if you say, well it doesn't protect the people that the president thinks are violent criminals or illegals or whatever he wants to call them, that begs the question, who determines whether somebody is deportable? Who determines whether somebody doesn't belong here or is a violent criminal?
Certainly not the president. He can't be judge, jury, executioner all at once. He's trying to take unto himself the powers of every branch of government including now the judicial branch. He says basically, due process is inconvenient. How can we have hearings for all these people? Well, that's all very nice, I guess. Do you want to amend the Constitution and say that all persons are entitled to due process of law unless it would take too long to treat them fairly?
That's not the Constitution that this country would ever agree to live by, and it's certainly not the one that this president swore to uphold on January 20th of this year.
TAPPER: Yeah. Professor Lawrence Tribe, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. There was another thing Trump also said, he does not know, and that pertains to the Democratic Party. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I look at the Democrats, they're in total disarray. They have a new person named Crockett. I watched her speak the other day. She's definitely a low IQ person, and they said she's the future of the party. I said you have to be kidding. I don't know what they're going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's bring in the person he name checked there, Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett of Texas. Congresswoman, your response?
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT, (D-TX): The fact that you just got done engaging in a conversation where we have a president of the United States who has no idea about the oath that he just took on January 20th tells me everything that I need to know. He didn't even have good sense enough in that same interview to say something as simple as, yes, I will follow the Constitution. You know, the thing that actually derived from the oath that he was supposed to take.
[17:09:55]
And he supposedly took an oath, which there's a lot of people that point out that he never put his hand on the bible even though he acts as if he could somehow be the pope. But nevertheless, that oath specifically says that you will defend the Constitution. So the idea that you are now taking the Constitution, and as I said at the DNC, putting it through a paper shredder is a problem. And I think that this should not be partisan. This should be right versus wrong.
A lot of the things that this administration is doing, they don't have anything to do with partisanship. This is right versus wrong. And right now, they are consistently wrong.
TAPPER: So Trump referred -- President Trump referenced the notion you are the future of the Democratic Party. You are pitching fellow Democrats on a run for the top position on the House Oversight Committee --
CROCKETT: Yeah.
TAPPER: -- that the current top Democrat, is stepping down, because of illness according -- to "Politico" says that you're seeking that position. Do you think you are the future of the Democratic Party? And if not, who else is?
CROCKETT: I don't know that I'm the future of the Democratic Party, but I do know that in this moment, we need people that are unafraid and willing to go after this administration for the good of the entirety of the country. And I think that that is an opportunity that I would have sitting as the ranker on oversight. We will be able to conduct investigations.
And as they are not wanting the American people to know about things such as what's going on with FAA as you were just talking about Newark, or what's going on as it relates to our food, or what's going on as it relates to these firings and how that is impacting, say, our veterans that are trying to go and seek the treatment that they need. They don't want to be transparent and open with the American people.
And I want to do that. I want to make sure that we are shining a light on all the darkness that they are bringing to our country right now.
TAPPER: So President Trump says his administration's latest self- deportation policy will allow some migrants a potential path back to the US. DHS also says it will pay an additional $1,000 to people who verify that they have left the US, people in this country illegally, who have left the U.S. and have returned to their home country. I want you to listen to what White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller said about this a few days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHIT HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: A single illegal alien family over the course of his lifetime may cost U.S. taxpayers over $1 million. So when you give an illegal immigrant a check for, say, $1,000 or $2,000, whatever it may be, $3,000, to leave the country, you're saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. It also saves money relative to us having to go out and find that illegal alien and physically arrest them and deport them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So You represent a border state. Obviously, there are a lot of undocumented migrants in Texas. What do you make of this? Would you advise any undocumented individual who comes to you that maybe they should take the money and go back to their home country? What's your take on it all?
CROCKETT: I wouldn't trust this administration for anything. First of all, they are terrible about paying their bills, number one. Number two, most of those people that have come over regardless of what this administration said, they came over because they were fleeing things such as the fact that they don't have the opportunity to work and earn a living or they're fleeing political violence.
And so what is $1,000 if you're going back to a place where you may lose your life? They risk their lives, many of them coming over here in the first place. That's number one. Number two, I want to see some numbers. Where in the heck did you just pull this number out of your back pocket saying that they're costing us approximately $100 million, the one -- I'm sorry, not $100 million, $1 million for each undocumented person.
The only numbers that we have show that we receive approximately $100 billion in tax revenue from undocumented people. So much so that they decided that they want to go to the IRS and get the IRS to help them as they go and seek these people. You know why? Because they've been working and they've been doing the jobs that now they want to roll back child labor protections and make sure that poor children are the ones that are doing those jobs because now we're going to have those vacancies if we're going to have jobs left at all as we continue to endure the grind of this failed experiment around this tariff war.
TAPPER: So I want to ask you. The U.S. Department of Education says it's going to start re -- start restart collecting federal student loans in default. Starting today, this impacts about five million Americans. You've been outspoken against this. And I know, look, COVID, inflation, and now tariffs and uncertainty on the stock market, it's a tough time for a lot of people out there. But what do you say to critics who say, look, I paid off my student loans? Why can't these people pay off theirs?
CROCKETT: Listen. Everyone kind of encounters a different set of circumstances. I remember when I came out of undergrad, and it was a decision about whether or not to go to law school or to go to grad school at all. And one of the reasons that actually propelled me into saying, yes, I will absolutely go, is because the economy was so bad that I wouldn't be able to get a job and actually start paying those loans back.
So I decided to, you know, go get more education and hopefully come out in three years to a better market and have enough education to be able to actually pay these bills.
[17:14:56]
Listen, we all have different sets of circumstances, whether it's life that's happening, whether you're taking care of your parents, or whether you're taking care of children. But the reality is that we consistently offer breaks to those that are paying out multibillion dollar bonuses, whether it's in the banking industry, whether it's in the auto industry.
We continue to offer those kinds of bailouts. But when it comes to the everyday working person, the person that is going to feel these failed tariffs policies the most as they are doing the historic amount of firings in our federal government, which means that it's not just going to impact those that are being fired. It's going to impact those restaurants in those areas where those workers would normally go.
It's going to impact those grocery stores where they normally shop and the places that they go and buy clothes. So listen, everyone is about to be hurt. Every expert that you talk to, they will tell you that if we are not currently in a recession, we are headed towards one. And this is when you decide that you want to go after people.
Frankly, this administration continuously tells us that they love to kick people when they're already down. And I personally believe that if we can do it for the big guys, then we can do it for the little guy.
TAPPER: So Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett from the great state of Texas, thanks so much. Always good to have you here. Appreciate it.
CROCKETT: Absolutely.
TAPPER: So We're hearing from former Vice President Mike Pence for the first time since his former boss returned to the White House. What the former vice president told CNN's Kaitlan Collins about the direction Trump is taking the country. And CNN is live from Alcatraz in the San Francisco Bay as President
Trump calls for reopening "the rock." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: January 6 was a tragic day, but it became a triumph of freedom. And history will record that our institutions held in these divided times, in these anxious days. I know in my heart that we will find our way forward as one nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Back in our "Politics Lead." Former Vice President Mike Pence receiving the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award last night at the JFK Library for standing up to President Trump and his minions in certifying the 2020 election in the aftermath of the January 6 attack and direct threats to him and his family.
CNN anchor and chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins just interviewed the former vice president. Kaitlan, you also talked about the economy with Pence. Just last week in the "Wall Street Journal" op-ed, he called Trump's tariffs, quote, "a massive policy misstep," unquote. What did he have to say today?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIED WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And he said the only thing Americans had been liberated from, Jake, was trillions of dollars in investments after seeing what happened to the stock market after that April 2nd announcement from President Trump. And Mike Pence was serving as Donald Trump's vice president the last time he was in office, the last time he implemented tariffs. He agreed with that, but it was in a certainly more limited and narrowed kind of structure that we saw.
Now that we're seeing a more sweeping set of tariffs and really just across the board, as Pence put it, friend and foe alike, from many different nations, he said that he strongly disagrees with the way that President Trump is implementing these tariffs this time around and also warned, Jake, about the hurt that this could cause to American consumers. And I asked him about something that the president keeps repeating lately saying that, yes, children may have to make do with fewer toys as a result of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One argument he's been making lately is that maybe children will have to make do with fewer toys, fewer dolls. The quote that he had yesterday was, "I'm just saying that they don't need to have 30 dolls, they can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils, they can have five." Do you think the American people buy that argument?
PENCE: I have two grown daughters. I have, three small granddaughters. And, look, keeping dolls affordable, keeping our kids toys affordable, that really is part of the American dream. I remember recently the Secretary of the Treasury said that cheap goods was not a part of the American dream. Well, I'm somebody who spent almost my entire life in public service. We lived in our paycheck while we raised three kids and put three kids through college. Cheap goods are a big part of it. And I think we ought to be candid about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And, Jake, as I was speaking with Vice President Pence, he was talking about what could be to come as a result of these tariffs, not just looking at the economy as it is now, but also warning about supply shortages and potentially seeing empty shelves and a sticker shock that Americans, are potentially going to experience as a result of these tariffs being put in place and going in if they're not trade deals that are made.
And he was essentially saying, Jake, that he believes it will get so bad that the American people will demand a different path out of the White House, a change when it comes to the president's tariff policy. Obviously, that remains to be seen, but he also said that they had had multiple conversations about tariffs when he was serving as vice president and essentially said they just have fundamentally different views on what kind of tariffs work and how they're implemented.
TAPPER: So The vice president, former vice president, has both praised and criticized his former boss, President Trump, since the start of the second term. What other areas is there disagreement between Vice President Pence and President Trump?
COLLINS: Yeah, Jake. And he did that in our interview. We covered a lot of ground from the president's comments on the Constitution and due process, to the war that is raging still in Ukraine and how he views the talks that are happening between President Trump and President Putin. Obviously, that was something that a world leader that they dealt with when they were in office the last time.
He had some very interesting comments on where he thinks those talks are going, Jake, and what that's going to look like. I also asked him about RFK, Jr. He came out of his group, Advancing American Freedom, and opposed his nomination as the Health and Human Services secretary. Obviously, now he has since confirmed. And Pence also weighed in on his leadership at the HHS department and what that looks like. And so certainly, a lot of ground that we covered in our interview, Jake.
[17:24:57]
TAPPER: So All right, Kaitlan Collins. Can't wait to watch. Thanks so much. Look for Kaitlan's full interview with former Vice President Mike Pence tonight on her show, "The Source with Kaitlan Collins." It's tonight at 9:00 eastern only here on CNN.
We are looking ahead to the conclave here at "The Lead." That's set to start in less than two days. We have conclave mania, the key skill that the next pope likely needs to lead this new era of the Catholic church. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: So In our "Faith Lead," as of this morning, all 133 cardinals participating in the conclave to elect the new pope have arrived in Rome.
[17:30:01]
The voting begins, Wednesday. There are, of course, more than 133 cardinals, but you have to be under the age of 80 to participate.
Joining us now, investigative journalist, Gerald Posner. He's the author of "God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican." Gerald, thanks so much for joining us. You write a column in Forbes titled, why the next Pope faces major money challenges. You lay out why the Pope needs to have the skillset of a top CEO, in addition to being a good communicator and, of course, a religious scholar. Is there a candidate you've seen that could fill that CEO role?
GERALD POSNER, AUTHOR "GOD'S BANKERS": Well, you know, Jake, the one thing I know for sure is any prediction I have is sure to be wrong. It's sort of like trying to predict (inaudible) is going to do when they -- they go out for a while but a thousand times more complicated. And every time I followed, you know, recent conclaves, when Francis became Pope in 2013, he wasn't even on the betting odds that the British lay out for 150 to one odds. He had finished second in 2005 when Benedict became Pope.
We know those results after the conclaves are over. But in 2013, nobody thought he was a candidate. And then after two days, he emerges as the -- the winner. So it's hard to know here. There's any number of half a dozen. I'm just hoping whoever becomes Pope, although there are a lot of important things on the issue, they don't take the eyes off the reform of the finances, which Francis did a great job on because they aren't finished yet.
They're about 70 percent of the way through. If they don't pay attention to it, it could easily be slipped back to what I call the bad old days in the dark without any transparency. And that would be a big mistake for the church.
TAPPER: Also joining me, I think we've figured out the Zoom issues, Dr. William Cavanaugh, Professor of Catholic Studies at DePaul University. Dr. Cavanaugh, I hope you can hear me. The last two conclaves held in 2013 to elect Pope Francis and in 2005 to elect Pope Benedict, each lasted two days. Do you think this conclave is going to be this quick, that quick? Do you think most cardinals are going to be similarly on the same page this week?
DR. WILLIAM T. CAVANAUGH, PROFESSOR OF CATHOLIC STUDIES, DEPAUL UNIVERSITY: I'd be surprised if it was that quick, actually. This seems like a particularly difficult conclave to handicap because the cardinals don't know each other. They're getting to know each other now.
And the ideological profile of the next pope, it's just not clear. I don't see any front runners. You see the lists of front runners and they're almost as long as the College of Cardinals, the list of cardinals itself. So I think this might take a little bit longer.
TAPPER: And I asked both of you this during the -- during the commercial break. And I -- I think we -- you -- you both agreed, and Dr. Cavanaugh, I'll start with you, the people who saw the movie "Conclave," with the exception of the twist, and let's not spoil it for anybody because it's streaming now, but with the exception of the twist, you say, Bill, that -- that the movie "Conclave" is -- is fairly accurate in how it portrays the process of electing a new pope, the drama, the sideline conversations, the emergence of dark horse candidates.
For the actual conclave, what do you foresee is the biggest points of disagreement that might happen in this actual conclave?
CAVANAUGH: The points of divergence from the film, you mean?
TAPPER: No, no.
CAVANAUGH: Or no.
TAPPER: Just internally with -- for the Catholic church.
CAVANAUGH: Oh, internally, yes. The -- it seems like there are some that are going to want to go forward and there are some that are going to want a correct course. And so there are Francis people who thought that he was just what the church needed at this time, a gift from the Holy Spirit, and we need to continue on in that -- in that line. And then there are more conservative cardinals who are pressing the line that Francis was a particularly divisive pope and we need to change -- change course.
TAPPER: Gerald, what do you think? Same question.
POSNER: Yes, I think what Bill says, you know, it's very interesting, Jake, because one of the things the church is very concerned about, all the cardinals who are getting together for the conclave are worried about the number of Catholics that they might be losing. They're losing Catholics in Latin America, in Asia and Africa, the Pentecostal faiths. And so they want to know how they can keep those.
And there is a split on some social issues in the church. Francis, for instance, near the end of his papacy had put in a -- a blessing that was available for same-sex couples. The African bishops and cardinals asked to opt out of that and were essentially given the right not to put Africa into it.
So there are some split on social issues like that. And I do think that that may play out. Remember what Bill said a moment ago, a lot of these cardinals haven't met one another. They're more diverse than ever before. Francis has appointed cardinals in Brunei, Mongolia, South Sudan, places that never had a cardinal before. So there's no one continent that has more than half of the electors.
The last papacy, the last conclave was 52 percent European. That doesn't exist anymore. They all have a large chunk and they'll all be competing to see whether they should have the first Asian Pope or the first African Pope or maybe the second Latin American Pope, Francis having been the first.
[17:35:11]
TAPPER: Fascinating stuff, Dr. Bill Cavanaugh and Gerald Posner, thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.
Coming up next, President Trump's attempt to get more films made in America, but could his strategy for a very real problem end up doing more harm than good? A film producer is with me next to weigh in.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Topping our Pop Culture Lead today, Hollywood is reeling after President Trump announced he wants a new 100 percent tariff imposed on movies made outside the United States. And while the White House concedes no final decision has been made or details have been formulated, the film industry is fuzzy on how this tariff plan would work in its final cut.
[17:40:01]
While goods are pretty straightforward when it comes to tariffs, intellectual property is not. Joining us now, veteran Hollywood movie producer, Mark Vahradian, whose credits include the "Transformer" series and "Pet Sematary." Also the founder of Producers United. Mark, thanks for joining us. So take a listen to President Trump talking about Hollywood this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED SATES: They have the nice sign and everything's good, but they don't do very much. A lot of it's been taken to other countries and a big proportion. And I'm actually going to meet with some because, you know, there's some advantages, I guess, and I'm not looking to hurt the industry. I want to help the industry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now it is true, as you know better than I do, that there are incentives for Hollywood to shoot in say, London. Will tariffs, do you think, help bring filmmaking back to the U.S.?
MARK VAHRADIAN, FOUNDER, PRODUCER'S UNITED: Well, you know, I will say as somebody, I represent really the -- the producing community, but somebody who's very close with also, you know, all the other unions, SAG, DGA, WGA and IATSE and -- and -- and Teamsters. It's encouraging for us to see President Trump recognize real economic struggles in the film and television industry, which has been plaguing us for the last, you know, several years, we've had COVID problems. We've had strike problems. We've had fire problems.
And every time we try to climb out of this hole that we're in, something new happens. So, you know, the -- the -- the conversation about tariffs today was encouraging in the sense that we put a spotlight on ourselves, but we don't necessarily think that's the best way forward.
TAPPER: Right. I want you to take a listen to -- to a clip that caught our ears. Former "Parks & Rec" cast members, Rob Lowe and Adam Scott, on Lowe's podcast recently, talking about some of the challenges of the film industry, especially when it comes to shooting in L.A. versus other people. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB LOWE, ACTOR: It's cheaper to bring a hundred American people to Ireland than to walk across the lot --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LOWE: -- Fox.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LOWE: Pass the sound stages and do it there.
There are no tax credits. So like all those other places are offering 40 percent.
ADAM SCOTT, ACTOR: Yes.
LOWE: Forty percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh yes.
LOWE: And then on top of that, there's other stuff that they do.
SCOTT: Yes.
LOWE: And then that's not even talking about the union stuff. That's just tax economics of it all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I know people like Rob and -- and Adam would rather shoot in L.A. than have to travel to Ireland. I've also heard lawmakers in Sacramento seem averse to providing incentives to your industry in Hollywood. Is that true?
VAHRADIAN: It's true. I mean, it's something that we've been struggling with and we've been very engaged lately. This year, California is looking to double their tax incentives, but we're looking -- what we're looking for is the equivalent of what other countries who are filmmaking-oriented countries like Great Britain, et cetera, to match. We're looking to match what they do.
They have federal incentives, they have state incentives. Australia is another great example. So we -- yes, we would like to get California incentives here. That being said, you know, tariffs are something that are a little bit trickier for us because we are not a car business. We are not steel. We don't, you know, we don't operate that way. We're intellectual property.
So, you know, it's a little bit different. When we make movies, we choose to make them abroad, oftentimes for the subject matter. And so, you know, that -- it's a little trickier for us to say we need to make things here because oftentimes part of our storytelling is shooting these things abroad. So we're excited about the idea that finally we're getting some attention on this issue and we would love nothing more than to make movies in the United States. It's, you know, we all want to sleep in our own beds.
We all, you know, want to stay at home and see our families. But, you know, on the other hand, sometimes that's just not possible in terms of the production requirements of a film.
TAPPER: So Trump apparently met with actor Jon Voight at Mar-a-Lago this weekend before announcing the tariff plan. John Voight, obviously big Trump supporter. I'm referring to the actor John Voight, not the -- not the periodonist.
VAHRADIAN: Yes.
TAPPER: If -- if Trump were watching, what would your message to him be?
VAHRADIAN: The message would be there are other ways to bring production back to the United States. There is a limited capacity here, I will tell you, which a lot of people don't know. For instance we always, you know, our conversations amongst other producers, there's three crews available in Atlanta for production. That means probably six movies a year.
[17:45:05]
So with the amount of production on all the studios, there's only so much we can do in the United States. Some of those movies also require other locations. So we are much more interested in something where we would incentivize people to shoot here and to fill the stages we do have, but not punish people who, by story requirements, have to shoot abroad or, you know, just -- just by capacity, for capacity reasons, have to shoot abroad.
TAPPER: Sounds like you think the President is right in the diagnosis, but wrong in the prescription. Mark Vahradian, thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, the military standoff that could easily escalate into a full-blown conflict between India and Pakistan. CNN went to the disputed line of control. See what is at stake between these two nuclear armed powers in a standoff, next.
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[17:50:57]
TAPPER: In our World Lead, the threat of war looms over Kashmir, that disputed area between India and Pakistan that's been the focus of conflict for more than 75 years. Both sides are bracing for violence after a terrorist attack in the region last month that killed 26 civilians. CNN's Nic Robertson traveled to the line of control, separating the two nuclear powers as tensions spill over into local communities.
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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): High in the Himalayas, Pakistan's army is taking us deep into disputed Kashmir toward the line of control, the de facto border with India. And one of the most militarized conflicts in the world, tensions between the two nuclear armed neighbors rising since a terror attack killed 26 civilians, mostly Indian, almost two weeks ago. Militaries on both sides readying for possible escalation as India blamed Pakistan and Pakistan denied responsibility.
It's a war of words. Civilians on both sides of these rugged mountains fear, not for the first time, will be victims of events way beyond their sway. Control of the towering peaks unresolved for 75 years.
ROBERTSON: Just driving through the mountains here, it's easy to understand why Kashmir is still a disputed area. So hard to fight a decisive war in this rugged terrain.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): The other thing you see here is poverty, meager villages clinging to the hillside.
People here say the spiking tensions making it harder to eke a living, as we're about to find out. On foot now, the village we're heading to, a few hundred feet from the line of control. And just look over there, you can see how close the front lines are.
That's the last Pakistani position there, the Indian army position a few hundred meters away. And those trees, that's the line of control. When we arrived, most villagers clustered around one house, some hiding in the dark inside, children peeking from unglazed windows.
This villager telling us they live in fear now. Elderly children and women are incredibly scared, he says. We want to take our livestock out to pasture, but the Indians are right there in front of us, and we're very concerned.
Their fears may be well-founded. This 17-year-old says Indian troops killed his father, Malik Farooq. He had gone to the line of control to chase our cattle, he says. The Indians shot him and accused him of being a terrorist. He is not, he is a good man. The day after the massacre in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Indian government announced it had foiled a terror plot, killing two Pakistanis.
Malik's brother denies the allegations too, says he was just a herder like me, believes India wants their land before breaking down in tears.
ROBERTSON: It's OK, it's OK, it's OK, it's OK.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): India's done a great cruelty to us, he says. If they want me to leave, put a bullet in my head, that's the only way I'll go. With no end in sight on both sides of the border, civilians as ever the losers in this decades-old conflict.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Jake, this decades-long conflict shows absolutely no sign of letting up, and there are plenty of accusations and counter- accusations between the two sides. India has long accused Pakistan of involvement in militants inside Indian-controlled Kashmir. Pakistani officials admit that was the case in the past, deny that it's happening now. But the killing of these 26 civilians is so ratcheting up tensions. This is why global powers are really paying attention, focusing diplomacy, China, the United States, focusing their diplomatic efforts. However, that didn't stop India on Monday announcing it was shutting off some of its vital water supply to Pakistan. Jake?
[17:55:31]
TAPPER: Thanks so much. Nic Robertson in Islamabad for us. Thank you so much.
Air traffic controllers losing communication with planes and walking off the job in frustration. What in the world is going on at Newark International Airport in New Jersey? We're asking that very question ahead.
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[17:59:58]
TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, a new chapter in President Trump's deportation crackdown.
