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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Delays, Disruptions At Newark Airport Continue For Ninth Day; India Launches Military Operation Against Pakistan; Rep. Mike Turner (R-OH) Is Interviewed About India, Pakistan, Military Operation, Canada, Trade War; Canada's PM To Trump: Canada "Won't Be For Sale, Ever"; Trump Signals There Will Be No Tariff Deal With Canada; Flurry Of Activity At The Vatican Ahead Of The Conclave; Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL) Is Interviewed About New Legislation To Protect Veterans; U.S. Supreme Court Allows Trump Admin To Begin Enforcing Ban On Transgender Service Members. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 06, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This is someone that's in the bureaucracy that their task for DHS is that task on it. So they're a government employee career, that's an immigration judge. So it's a very different process for it. But yes, there is -- there is a need to be able to give an opportunity for someone to be able to make an argument before they're removed in the country. It's just who is that and what is that process?

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, Senator Lankford, we are of course up against the clock. We're hitting time to hand over to Jake Tapper in "The Lead." I want to say thank you. The book is "Turnaround."

LANKFORD: Yes.

HUNT: And I would love it if you came back and be happy to talk more extensively about it.

LANKFORD: I'd be glad to.

HUNT: Thank you very much for rolling (inaudible) today.

LANKFORD: Yes, thanks.

HUNT: Thank you all for being with us as well. Thanks to our panel for joining us too. Don't go anywhere. "The Lead" with Jake Tapper starts right now.

[17:00:45]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The sound of war. Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We begin with breaking news on our world lead. India says it is launching a military operation against Pakistan hitting what India calls terrorist infrastructure in both Pakistan and the Pakistani administered region of Kashmir. This comes after a deadly terrorist attack last month on the Indian administered part of Kashmir. We're going to have much more on the news from this region just ahead. But another compelling story in our national lead, chaos continues at Newark Liberty International Airport for the ninth day in a row after the air traffic control system meltdown last week. A new analysis by Flightradar24 says a total of 885 Newark flights have now been canceled. Travel disruptions are always a headache. But what led to this one raises larger questions about the safety of our nation's air traffic control system, which is outdated anywhere from 25 to 50 years old.

As passengers flew in and out of Newark last week, air traffic controllers briefly lost radar and all communications with pilots. This is the moment the FAA says led some controllers to have to take trauma leave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you do not have a Bravo clearance. We lost our radar and it's not working correctly. Radar service terminates. Squawk VFR change approved. If you want a Bravo clearance, you can just call the tower when you get closer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, I'll wait for that frequency from you. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. No, just, squawk VFR, look up the tower frequencies. We don't have a radar, so I don't know where you are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And now given the controllers on trauma leave, bad weather and ground delays, there appears to be no near term solution for a return to normal operations. And this raises many questions and concerns for travelers far beyond Newark as we're just weeks away from the busy summer travel season. CNN's Brynn Gingras is at Newark Liberty International Airport, but we're going to start here in studio with CNN Aviation Correspondent Pete Muntean.

And Pete, these travel impacts could reach beyond Newark Airport. Of course, there tends to be ripple effects. How bad could this get and how serious is the air traffic control system breakdown that led to all this?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, this most serious incident was terrifying for air traffic controllers and potentially dangerous for flights. Sixty to 90 seconds is what our new reporting says about the length of this outage back on April 28, meaning that controllers were essentially blind and deaf for a period of time, unable to communicate with planes, unable to see them on their radar scopes. That's a really serious thing because they're essentially not able to do the tools that do their job, that keep planes from running into each other. We now know that five air traffic controllers took what's called trauma leave. That entitles them to 45 days off.

It's something they are legally allowed to do under federal law. But the issue now is that there's no real near term solution in sight. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy continues to propose a sweeping overhaul and change to the air traffic control system, which will take decades, maybe years. But the big thing here is that these delays persist. We're in day nine likely to roll into day 10. The there's Runway construction at Newark.

And this is in the absence of major thunderstorms and summer weather, which cause the deck of cards to really come tumbling down for the aviation system. We know that United Airlines has preemptively canceled about 30 round trip flights to and from Newark for the foreseeable future. That's about 70 flights in total. So the impact here will be outsized. And about a quarter of all flight delays nationwide yesterday were in Newark.

TAPPER: And Bryn, tell us what the situation's like at Newark Airport right now. How are passengers? They're dealing with everything. We're on the ninth day here of the delays and confusion at that airport.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we've been hearing from people, Jake, who said that they have just basically avoided Newark altogether, have decided to change their flights out of Newark so they don't even have to deal with this mess. But listen, either you're on an international flight or you're on a domestic flight light, you're not immune to this. The delays are really across the board at this point. You can see the board here behind me at the departures here in Newark at Terminal A, Terminal B still all lit up in that orange. You're seeing some of those cancellations as well.

[17:05:08]

As of now, 270 delays here at Newark International Airport, 134 cancellations. Just compare that to yesterday, where it topped off at 425 delays and 160 cancellations. There has been a ground delay ordered by the FAA that is still in effect till midnight tonight. That means flights trying to get into Newark are on the ground for at least four hours, maybe even more. So there's just tons of reasons for people to be frustrated.

I want you to hear from a group of friends who are just trying to get to New Orleans to just celebrate and have a good time together. Some of them were taking it in stride, others not so much. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's terrible. You know, we are on vacation. We work hard. We just want to go on vacation now. If we get to New Orleans, it'll be 1:00 in the morning. Nobody can give you any type of compensation for the trouble you're going through. That is terrible.

GINGRAS: It's frustrating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very frustrating. I don't think it has anything to do with the weather, whatever's going on now with the airports and the staffing and they have to straighten this out. Somebody has to.

(END VIDEO CLIP) GINGRAS: And yes, everybody has a horrific travel story, but it does feel like as we're talking to these passengers, that it just gets worse and worse. It's all those issues that Pete has already talked about, but then it's also that way the airlines are actually dealing with these delays and cancellations. It's just not reassuring to anyone that this really doesn't seem to be any relief in the near future, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Brynn Gingras at Newark International Airport, Pete Muntean here in studio, thanks.

Joining us now, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy.

Secretary Duffy, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. I guess the first question I have is what's the fix for Newark Airport in the immediate future? Obviously, I know you have plans for improving the situation in the longer term, but right now there's a crisis. What can be done? What will you do?

SEAN DUFFY, U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Yes, a couple of things. Immediately, we're in the process of bringing together all the airlines that serve Newark and putting them in a room and having a conversation about how they reduce their capacity in Newark. So if you book a flight, you know it's not going to be delayed or canceled, you're actually going to get on that flight and it's going to fly. But that's a coordination that we have to have through the FAA with all those airlines.

Down to the Philly, TRACON gives a service to Newark. They're the facility that controls that airspace. We do have some air traffic controllers in training. They've been training for some time. They're ready to come online. That'll be helpful with the shortage that we have there.

But, Jake, this is an infrastructure problem, right? And we've known this infrastructure problem has existed for a very long time. The last administration knew it. No one has done anything. So for Newark specifically, we are going to rebuild the communication system at Newark.

I thought it was going to be eight months, six months. We're pushing to do it faster. Hopefully this summer we get that done. But the key is always safety, right? I don't want people to fly. I'd rather have them delayed or canceled.

I'd rather have it take six months than two and a half months to build up that communication system because I want people to get from point A to point B safely. And again, if they have to wait for a flight, prefer that than something else going wrong with their flight.

TAPPER: Yes. Look, I'm not saying that what's going on right now is a problem created in the last 106 days. Obviously --

DUFFY: Yes, of course.

TAPPER: -- this goes back beyond the Biden administration, beyond the first Trump administration, literally decades. But this is the situation we're in. Pete Muntean --

DUFFY: Right.

TAPPER: -- our aviation expert here, says that Newark is a microcosm of the problems all over the entire American travel system, air traffic control system. So beyond the short term fix, getting all the airlines in a room and trying to divert flights to other airports, beyond this, solving -- this problem solving that you want to do in the next few months, what is -- what is the larger term goal in terms of making sure that Newark isn't just the tip of the iceberg?

DUFFY: Listen, that's a great question. So again, because we have such old infrastructure, it's 25 to 50 years old, depending on what you're talking about. That's why you can't let it get to this point, right? Where you see issues like Newark. Could that happen somewhere else?

It's possible. And so what we have to do is we're rolling a plan out on Thursday. We're going to need a lot of money from Congress to do this. It's not going to take 10 years like Pete suggested. It's going to take three to four years to get this build out done.

You can't snap your fingers and lay fiber or bring in, you know, new radios or new radar. Those things take time. And we're going to put the time in, the money in, and you're going to start to see results sooner than three or four years as this build out happens.

We're also dealing with air traffic controllers. We have a 3000 controller shortage right now in America and spend like that for almost a decade. So we've done two things. We've expanded the capacity for our main academy, which is in Oklahoma City, to get more controllers into the academy and get the best qualified controllers into the academy because we have a 35 percent washout rate.

[17:10:16]

If we can get that down to 25 percent, we get more young people through and trained up and certified and in towers. Also controllers, after 25 years of service, they can retire. Jake. And so we want to say, listen, if you're an experienced controller and you're willing to stay on after that date of retirement, let's pay him. We're to give them 20 percent bonuses upfront per year that they stay on and help us with the airspace. And those two things together, I can't do it tomorrow, I can't do it, you know, in a month, but over the course of the next year and two years, you're going to see the pressure come off the controllers because we're focusing on the experienced end and the trained up end and resolve this problem.

But all this together, it's going to take -- it takes a long time.

TAPPER: Yes.

DUFFY: And that's why I wish the last administration would have seen it. There are GAO reports that said, hey, the infrastructure is failing and no one did anything with it, Jake. They spent $1.2 trillion on infrastructure. What has gone to the greatest infrastructure in this country, which is air traffic control? Not much.

I can't see it. And so, I'm frustrated by that, as you can tell.

TAPPER: Yes.

DUFFY: But we can't look back. We have to look forward and go, how are we going to fix it? The President has bought into our plan. This is bipartisan in Congress. Democrats and Republicans agree. We all fly.

TAPPER: Right.

DUFFY: Families fly. So let's get it done.

TAPPER: So the Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, talked about this situation in Newark today on the Senate floor. Take a listen to a little clip of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: The public deserves answers to some very important questions. Why has the staffing shortages at Newark and other critical airports been allowed to continue? What role has DOGE cuts played in aggravating the chaos? What is the plan to fill the vacancies of critical leadership at the FAA?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So leader Schumer called for the inspector general at the FAA to conduct an investigation into the Newark issues. And this comes as we're learning that the FAA halted the work of an outside panel of experts that were scrutinizing its management of air traffic control operations. I just gave you a lot to respond to there, but let's start with the pausing of that oversight board. Why was that paused?

DUFFY: So I'm not -- I'm not aware of the pausing of the oversight board. Again, we've been -- we've been bringing on and hiring more air traffic controllers, bringing more air traffic controllers into the school. DOGE has had no role in cutting our critical safety mission at DOT. We've expanded that, whether they're pipeline inspectors or rail inspectors, airline inspectors, or actually air traffic controllers. But what Chuck Schumer is talking about is DOGE, which, again, has no play.

But if he wants the IG to come in and look at what happened in the Philly TRACON when it moved from New York. They moved it last summer under Pete Buttigieg from New York to Philly. And when they do that investigation, they'll find that Chuck Schumer was actually part of the problem where they were testing up new equipment to deploy in Philly. And because he kept playing political games, that equipment wasn't tested. He'll also find that before they moved the TRACON to Philly from New York for Newark, that they actually should have built out the infrastructure around Philly.

So they have to pull that information out of Newark. They didn't do those things correctly. And part of the problem was Chuck Schumer. So I look forward to the IG investigation about what the real problems were that we're experiencing right now, how it goes back to the games that Chuck Schumer was playing as he was a lead senator from New York.

TAPPER: The Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, we do appreciate your coming and taking our questions. Thank you so much, sir. And best of luck solving this problem.

DUFFY: Thanks, Jake. Thanks for having me on.

TAPPER: Coming up next, the breaking news, India's military launching a missile strike across its border into Pakistan. An escalation that's been feared for days now. What this could mean for a broader conflict between these two nuclear powers. That story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:49]

TAPPER: And we're back with the disturbing breaking news in our world lead. India confirms the Indian government has launched a military operation against Pakistan. The Indian military hitting what it describes as terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and in the Pakistan administered part of Kashmir. Nic Robertson is CNN's international diplomatic editor. He's in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan.

And Nic, this is a major escalation between these two neighboring countries that started with a terrorist attack. Tell us more.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLAMATIC EDITOR: Yes, that terrorist attack, India blamed a terrorist attack on Pakistan. It killed 26 civilians inside Indian administered Kashmir. India had threatened to respond. The prime minister has said that they would chase the attackers as far as they needed to go. Pakistani officials have said that they feared an Indian response and promised themselves to retaliate immediately if India attacked.

What we know at the moment are a number of different locations that the Pakistani military are saying have been hit. Some are in Pakistan administered Kashmir and some are in Pakistan proper. That represents to the Pakistani military mindset a massive escalation because it strikes not just in Kashmir region but in Pakistan properly proper. I've been speaking to a senior security official just in the past few minutes. They've released images of people they say were hurt in the blast.

Those images include women and children. They include flames leaping in the air. They include large parts of what appear to be missile fragments. And Pakistan's official line at the moment is and they continue to look in to these strikes and the impact of the strikes. They're saying so far they only seeing civilian casualties.

It is very significant. Again, I cannot underscore this, that Pakistan main, if you will, outside of Kashmir has been struck. And the very latest lines from Pakistani government officials is that there are -- their air force is right now delivering a crushing response, a crushing response to India at this time. The military here also claims to have shot down two Indian aircraft over Pakistani airspace.

[17:20:11]

Now, India has not confirmed that at this time. We do not have independent confirmation of it. But this fits, if you will, what we saw in 2019, the last time Indian Air Force fighter jets came into Pakistani airspace, Pakistan scrambled its jets, shot down some of the Indian fighters. So this is right now in an extreme escalatory situation.

And just to give you a little bit of color here, we've spoken to our local CNN fixer, if you will, in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Kashmir, he reports several massive explosions there. He says the people in that city at the moment inside Pakistan administered Kashmir, the capital of it, are in a very panic situation. And our cameraman here with me now, Javid (ph), who lives about an hour from where we are, he was woken by two very loud blasts in his house. So we're talking about on the outskirts, just a few tens of miles away from the outskirts of Islamabad. That woke him, shook his house, scared his children.

So these strikes, some of them are close enough to the suburbs of Islamabad to shake the buildings, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nic Robertson, we're going to come back to you throughout the show.

Let's go to Kaitlan Collins now at the White House.

And Kaitlan, President Trump just weighed in on these Indian strikes on Pakistan, which we should note India considers to be retaliatory from the terrorist attack. Tell us more.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, this has obviously been something the White House has been watching closely for a little over two weeks now, waiting to see what the response would be like. And essentially what we've been hearing from senior officials, including the vice president, was that they wanted Pakistan to cooperate with the investigation that India was conducting into that terrible attack.

But also they were sending a message to India saying that they wanted it to be a proportional response and would that would not lead to a broader regional conflict. That was their concern that we've seen shaking out. And just now the president was in the Oval Office with Steve Witkoff, one of his top aides who has been going to the Middle East, visiting Russia, having multiple meetings on the world stage swearing him in, and he was asked about this response just a few moments ago, Jake, and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, they've been fighting for a long time. You know, they've been fighting for many, many decades and centuries actually, if you really think about it. No, I just hope it ends very quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And that is really the question here, Jake, what is going to happen next here? And is this going to escalate even further? That has been the major concern for the top national security aides here at the White House, especially as Secretary of State Marco Rubio is now going to be pulling double duty, acting not just as the secretary of state but also the national security adviser.

The president has already welcomed the Indian Prime Minister Modi here at the White House since he returned to the Oval Office. We'll wait to see if we hear from the White House about a phone call between those two leaders at the highest level as they are going to be obviously monitoring this incredibly closely given this is part of the presidency. Sometimes these issues arise that are obviously not expected or the questions of what is going to happen and what the end is going to be because the concern has been this becomes a wider war that is slips out of control. And so monitoring this very closely here at the White House, Jake. And we'll bring you any updates as we get them.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. And tonight on "The Source," Kaitlan is going to be talking tariffs and trade with guest Peter Navarro, President Trump's senior counselor for trade and manufacturing. That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern here on CNN.

But joining us now to talk more about the India Pakistan conflict, Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio who is on the Armed Services Committee, used to be chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

A lot going on. Let's stick with India. What is your take on this? Obviously, these are two nuclear powers. This could, I mean, I don't want to be alarmist, but there's always a real risk that this could spiral out of control.

REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): It is, but this is somewhat of a skirmish at this point.

TAPPER: Yes.

TURNER: The -- and this is on the border. The -- one of the concerns here obviously is that neither of these nations have a real influence by any other country to stop the types of conflicts that evolve sometimes between them. But generally there has been restraint. There has not been a major conflict that has evolved.

This administration is, though, undertaking significant outreach to India that there is a relationship that is evolving between them, looking to trade, looking to a broader balanced relationship, that certainly is beneficial both for India and the United States as they're trying both nations to offset China and its trade. I think that'll beneficial certainly as they try to lessen any effects of a possible conflict here. So hopefully this does not resolve in -- result in a greater conflict. But I think the evolving relationship between this administration and India will both be positive for India and the United States. [17:25:01]

TAPPER: So what is the role of the United States beyond trying to urge restraint?

TURNER: Well, you know, in trade it's certainly important. And we do provide both weapons systems and we do provide aid both in military relationships, both to Pakistan and to India and certainly both, you know, counseling them in the situation of trying to ensure that there isn't a broader conflict between them.

But there are greater opportunities, I think, in both relationships between Pakistan and India. And this administration is really being very aggressive in trying to get outreach that will offset China in the region. So I think that's going to really be very beneficial with this outreach that's occurring with the administration.

TAPPER: Just --

TURNER: And India sees great benefit here because they need to lessen what they see as a great threat to them in China.

TAPPER: And we just heard CNN's Nic Robertson say that a Pakistani official confirms that women, children, civilians were victims. What's your reaction to that?

TURNER: Well, certainly it's very concerning. It shows that Pakistan, in their saying that they're going to be retaliating are already laying the groundwork for the scope of which their retaliation could be. But again, you know, the United States think will be intervening. They'll certainly be advocating for, you know, this conflict to lessen. The, you know, first spark was a terrorist attack as it's described by India. That certainly wasn't a conflict between the two nations.

India is describing that they're responding to a terrorist attack. Even though it's a border skirmish, it doesn't sound -- it's not a nation to nation attack at this point and hopefully it can be resolved.

TAPPER: Let's switch gears for a second because there was a major international summit here in Washington, D.C. Canadian Prime Minister Carney was here. He told President Trump face-to-face Canada will never be for sale. He told him, according to Prime Minister Carney afterwards, that he doesn't like the 51st state references. What's your take?

TURNER: My take is it's pretty important that he's here so quickly. You know, regardless of the banter that occurred between them, they have a great deal of discussion that needs to occur with respect to tariffs. They need to establish a relationship between them. And you know, he's here and they're starting the beginnings of a relationship. I think this is very positive and I think, you know, very positive things will come out of it.

TAPPER: Trump also said that Prime Minister Carney couldn't change his mind on the tariffs against Canada. And in retaliation, Canada is taxing a slew of American goods. And according to the office of the U.S. Trade Representative, in 2024, Ohio's, quote, "largest market was Canada." Ohio exported $19.9 billion in goods to Canada in 2024, representing 35 percent of the state's total goods exports. What are you hearing from Ohio businesses?

I'm sure that they're concerned about this trade war escalating further.

TURNER: Sure, absolutely. And I think actually what Trump said is he couldn't change his mind in a day. I think what they said is they couldn't resolve them today. But it certainly is a really good and important step.

I think people are very concerned, especially I think in the issue with Canada. You probably more so than any other country, the threat and concern here is the supply chain because many times the things that are made in the United States or in Canada go back and forth over the border several times before they become a final good or product. And that impacts our ability to make final goods that are exported to other places and is true also for Canada. That's going to impact overall economic production for both of our countries, which gives a greater significance to resolving this matter.

TAPPER: All right, Congressman Turner, always great to have you. Thank you so much.

TURNER: Thank you.

TAPPER: Good to see you again, sir.

Much more ahead on the breaking news from the India Pakistan region. CNN is also live in Rome and at the Vatican ahead of the conclave set to start in less than 12 hours. The extra efforts to make sure the process is kept as closed off as possible. No live streaming, Cardinals. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Conclave countdown tops our Faith Lead. In just a few hours, the Sistine Chapel will be locked down. And cell service will be shut off ahead of the official start of the highly secretive conclave to elect a new pope. Earlier today, the 133 cardinal electors participated in a vow of secrecy.

And later, Pope Francis' ring was ceremonially destroyed. That's a tradition meant to ensure Francis' unique seal cannot be used in the future to forge any documents. The Room of Tears has also been set up. It's a small room next to the Sistine Chapel where the new pope will put on his papal vestments for the very first time. It's an action that has brought past popes to tears given the significance of the moment. Hence the name of the room.

CNN's David Culver just steps outside of Vatican City for us. David, we've seen a lot happen inside the Vatican today. But there are incredible scenes outside the Vatican too. Show us what's going on. DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Jake, we're on the eve of obviously an incredibly significant event. No question. But this is also a major production. I mean, we -- we touched down here just a few hours ago. And it's incredible to get a sense of what has transitioned from a -- a funeral and solemn atmosphere to what is now excitement really.

And there's a huge buildup. I -- I have to give you a look at just one of the many media risers. You've got dozens of media positioned in this three-story high riser. There's another one way down the promenade down there. There's another one, a large pen, just across the plaza here. Just about every rooftop that I'm looking at around us is occupied by media.

And you've got cardinals from 71 different countries. So you figure you've got a lot of media representing them. And you take a few steps during the day here. And every step, it's a different language that you're walking by when you have either reporters or influencers all filling in ready for this moment. And this is also a city now that is incredibly packed, especially during the day. I mean, it's 11:30 at night here, so it's thinned out.

[17:35:08]

But during the day, you start to realize we're at the beginning of high season when it comes to tourists. It's a jubilee year. And you've got a papal conclave. So, Jake, you start to feel a lot of people really coming in and wanting to take in what is a historic event.

TAPPER: And, David, the cardinals are allowed to bring in written materials, including what's been called a dossier, on dozens of potential popes.

CULVER: That's right, yes. I think the best person to ask about this, because I read this on CNN.com, is Christopher Lamb's article. So, Chris has that dossier, actually, Jake. And -- and you actually, as you're walking around here, you spot somebody you recognize, one of the cardinals, and -- and you ask them about this.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I saw one of the cardinals walking through the square. And I said, have you -- have you been given this report? And he -- he had, and he clearly knew about it. And he said it wasn't going to influence their discussions, because this report really is an attempt to try and move the conclave, in a way, in a different line to Pope Francis.

This is a dossier that has the profiles of the main papal candidates. But it's written in a certain way that heaps praise on the conservative cardinals, but critiques those close to Francis.

CULVER: So, it's leaning in one direction, clearly.

LAMB: Exactly. It is leaning in a certain direction. And, of course, the conclave takes place under strict secrecy. And the idea behind that is to stop the cardinals being influenced or lobbied. But it hasn't stopped some groups trying. This is a well-produced booklet, which has got quite a lot of, you know, funds behind it.

CULVER: Yes.

LAMB: And -- and it's quite extraordinary that they have been handing this out to cardinals. And two church lawyers I spoke to say that's completely against the conclave rules. But, you know, this is a conclave that's being followed so closely and intensely. And people really do want to see an outcome, some groups, that is a pope who is in a different line to Francis.

CULVER: I mean, this, as you point out, Chris, is obviously leaning in one direction. Are you seeing, I mean, influential reading material, if you will, leaning the other direction, too?

LAMB: Yes, I think there are different groups who want to try and influence the conclave, try and get the cardinals to take their concerns on. For example, survivors of sexual abuse have been detailing how cardinals have dealt with that, obviously, very serious topic.

CULVER: Right.

LAMB: So there are lots of different groups who want to have their voice heard by the cardinals.

CULVER: All right. I know there's a lot of anticipation. I know you've been going nonstop following all of your analysis and everything, Chris. It's -- it's incredible, Jake, I mean, just to see all of this come together. And also there's a celebratory mood, too. I mean, I was even passing a gelato shop, Jake, that has conclave flavor. The main ingredient, red wine.

TAPPER: Really? Did you try any?

CULVER: Yes. I did. I did. Not -- not enough to make me have to feel anything at this live shot, I promise.

TAPPER: OK. I wasn't worried about that. I just wondered what it might taste like. David Culver and Christopher Lamb, thanks so much.

CULVER: No, it's good. It's good.

TAPPER: Just outside Vatican City. Thanks so much.

Next here on The Lead, Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth, an Iraq War veteran and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. I'm going to ask her about this escalation between India and Pakistan.

[17:38:09]

Plus, tough questions today to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs on its plans to cut as many as 80,000 jobs from this one single agency.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our National Lead, today, Veterans Affairs Secretary Doug Collins was not able to specify which 80,000 jobs will be cut from the Veterans Affairs Department. He was pressed on the issue in a hearing at the U.S. Senate. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG COLLINS, VETERANS AFFAIRS SECRETARY: We're still working a plan. I'm not going to play out a plan in public that would actually take employees. You wouldn't do it in your own office.

SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): And I know -- I know I'm over, but it is playing out in public because you have fired people, and then they have been rehired. That's not a secret plan. People in my district, Marines, Veterans, have been fired from their V.A. jobs and then brought back. So it's not that there's some sneaky plan. You're in it. You're living it. And you're living the sloppiness of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As you heard there, Secretary Collins says cutting 80,000 V.A. jobs is a goal, but he acknowledged he might not be able to get to that number. Joining us now is Iraq War veteran Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois, who also questioned Secretary Collins today. Senator, good to see you.

At today's hearing, you -- you pressed Secretary Collins about the firings and then rehirings of Veteran Crisis Line employees who trained those to handle the phone calls from veterans in crisis. You and I have talked about this many times on the show. Here's a little excerpt of some of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I'll acknowledge the fact that we brought back staff to help in those situations, and that's why they're now exempted. Sometimes -- and -- and we did like -- we did do that, but I will not also let it be put out there that people were not getting their phone calls answered because those were the ones that were let go. Those were not the ones that were let go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You -- you said that more than one person has been affected. Can you tell us more?

SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): Yes, well, I've had just in my own, in Illinois, in my own home state, many veterans, people that I actually served with in the Army, so I know these people very well, were fired and then rehired. This is how sloppy they're going about doing this. They just did mass firings without looking at who they were firing. And not all of those people have been hired back, Jake.

I know at least one person who was promoted because they were doing such a good job answering the phone calls that they are now in the role of training other people who answer the phones. That person has not been hired back. TAPPER: And do we know if any veterans have called the Veterans Crisis Line and not been able to get somebody on the other line? Is -- is that anything we know, one way or the other?

DUCKWORTH: We don't know that, but we -- but the V.A. does have that data. They can provide that data. It's why I am introducing my bill tomorrow, the Protecting Veterans in Crisis Act, which does a number of things, including requiring the V.A. to provide data to Congress as to how those calls are being handled, how many calls are dropped, how long veterans are waiting to get their calls answered, and -- and, for example, how many veterans have been fired from the hotline.

[17:45:09]

TAPPER: What other -- what other things would your legislation do in addition to that?

DUCKWORTH: We would require the V.A. to let members of Congress know, to let Congress know 48 hours before they fire anybody from the Veterans Crisis Line, and then also to let us know if any of the people fired are veterans themselves or are military spouses.

TAPPER: Today, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Trump administration can start enforcing its ban on transgender service members. What -- what do you make of that decision?

DUCKWORTH: Well, it's a sad day because it's going to allow the Trump administration to fire individuals who have done things like flown 60 combat missions in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. Frankly, the military has more things to worry about than the handful of transgender service members being, you know, than this going out there and discriminating against transgender service members.

As far as I'm concerned, if you shoot straight, and you hate the enemy as much as I hate the enemy, and you want to protect and defend America, you should be allowed to serve. And frankly, we have a lot of work to do in the military. We are not building enough nuclear submarines. We are not making enough investments in ships. We have a near-peer ally in the PRC that is investing in their military.

At the same time, instead of working on our military defense, our military readiness, you've got an administration that is so focused on transgender service members that they are now working to discriminate against really a small number of service members who deserve to be able to serve their country if they want to.

TAPPER: I also wanted to ask you about a tense moment from today's hearing involving your Republican colleague, Senator Dan Sullivan from Alaska. Here he is talking about capping contingency fees for Camp Lejeune attorneys who represented sick Marines and others. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK): The Attorney General of President Biden worked with me to put that 25 percent cap? My colleagues wouldn't do it. No, no, no, no. So I'm a little -- it's a little rich when I hear everybody talking about taking care of veterans, and I spent a decade trying to get Democrats to help me, and they never did it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What was your reaction to that?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I have just as disgusted as he is at these predatory law firms that are taking advantage of veterans. Veterans should not have to pay anybody to file their V.A. claim. We have veteran service organizations that can do that, and you have state veteran commissions that will do that. Veterans should not have to use a law firm, and, in fact, these are very predatory law firms.

There are also, by the way, fake veterans organizations. We have, for example, a legitimate veteran organization, the Disabled American Veterans, which is a VSO, which can actually help you through the process of applying to the V.A. But then you have the American Disabled Veterans, which are fake organizations that, again, are predatory, prey on veterans.

And what we need to do is let veterans know that you don't have to pay anybody for you to file your V.A. claim and get your V.A. benefits. Heck, come to my offices, and I will help you do that. But absolutely, I agree with Senator Sullivan. We should be going after these predatory organizations that take advantage of veterans and their widows and their widowers.

TAPPER: All right, Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. As always, we thank you for your service, and thanks for coming on the show today.

DUCKWORTH: Thank you.

[17:48:18]

TAPPER: Coming up next, more on that ban on transgender individuals in the military and the split decision today at the U.S. Supreme Court. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Law and Justice Lead, the U.S. Supreme Court said today that the Trump administration can, can enforce its ban on transgender service members from serving in the military.

CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid has more on this. Paula, did the U.S. Supreme Court explain its reasoning for today's decision?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It did not. We didn't get much. We just got a paragraph from the high court. But what we know is this is a massive victory for the Trump administration because they've been telling me since day one, we just need to get our executive orders and our policies before that conservative supermajority and they will be upheld because you may remember this particular ban, this is something that Trump tried to implement in the first few days of his administration. It was blocked by a lower court, but now the Supreme Court is saying that the administration can continue to block transgender individuals from serving in the military.

Now the three liberal justices dissented but didn't give their reasoning or an explanation. But under this ban, service members who have a current diagnosis or history of or exhibit symptoms consistent with gender dysphoria will be processed for separation from military service. That also means that transgender individuals cannot currently join any branch of the military.

No. It's unclear exactly how many people we're talking about, but in 2018, an independent research institute estimated there were about 14,000 transgender troops serving in the military. But really, in addition to the impact on these individuals who are serving, I think this kind of thing will continue to embolden the administration because they've seen time and time again where the high court is allowing many, not all, but many of these Trump policies to proceed even though lower courts block them.

[17:55:02]

TAPPER: All right, Paula Reid, thanks so much.

A lot more ahead in our next hour. What Trump is saying now about pending trade deals. A loyal Trump nominee for a Trump prosecutor's job -- top prosecutor's job is facing major pushback from a key Republican senator.

Plus, the breaking news. India launching a military strike on individuals in Pakistan. They say they're targeting terrorists. Keep it here. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, economic whiplash at the White House. President Trump claims he could sign 25 trade deals right now, but he won't because, quote, we don't have to sign deals. OK. What does all of that actually mean for the U.S. economy, for tariffs, for your wallet, we'll discuss.

[17:59:57]

Plus, while all of those trade deals are up in the air, many small businesses are currently paying the price. Our series today on how the tariffs are hitting small businesses takes us to the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the business owner who says even though he assembles all of his products in the U.S., these tariffs will likely force him to close.