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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Threatens New Tariffs On European Union And Apple, Reigniting Trade Fears; White House Puts 100 Plus National Security Staffers On Leave; Pentagon Lost Contact With Army Helicopter On May 1 Flight; A Holiday Weekend Will Be A Test for Newark Airport; CNN In Tehran After Fifth Round Of Nuclear Talks; Billy Joel Cancels Upcoming Tour Due To Neurological Disorder; Judge Orders New Steps To Protect Florida's Manatees. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 23, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And could lead to further protests in those communities.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Jonah, we have about 20 seconds. Any thoughts?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I just think one of the things that's going to be very hard for historians to figure out is how to disentangle the protests. The backlash of the protests from the larger social dysfunctions that came from COVID and that makes everything, it colors everybody's memory of those events in ways that I just can have a very long half-life.

SANCHEZ: Very much enjoy the conversation. I hope you all enjoy the weekend, as you should as well. Thanks so much for joining us on the arena. The Lead starts right now.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Fears of a larger trade war just as we head into the holiday weekend. The Lead starts right now.

President Trump threatening huge new tariffs on Europe, claiming that negotiations with E.U. countries are, quote, going nowhere. But the threats, they don't stop there. The president also going after Apple and other tech companies. And a move that experts warn means new smartphones could cost you more than 3,000.

And, a scary diagnosis for one of the most beloved and celebrated singer songwriters of all time. What we're learning about Billy Joel's health condition as he cancels his upcoming tour dates.

Plus, this weekend is the official kickoff, the summer travel season. And experts are warning it's going to be a bit chaotic. How airports are preparing for the busiest summer in 15 years, all while dealing with understaffing and major tech problems. Welcome to The Lead.

I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. Protect your phone at all costs, even if it's a random congressman calling President Trump today, breathing fresh life into his trade war in multiple ways. First, by saying he would impose a tariff of at least 25 percent on Apple if it refuses to make iPhones in the United States.

And it turns out it's not just Apple that's at risk. This afternoon, Trump followed up with more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have the power to tariff one single company? And why would you want to hurt an American company in that way?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It would be more. It would be also Samsung and anybody that makes that product. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Of course, it's likely that a tariff of 25 percent could mean the cost get passed on to anyone who buys a new phone. Apple has long said it cannot manufacture phones in the United States given the majority of skilled engineers are abroad and they're keeper they're cheaper to keep on the payroll.

But also today, Trump said he would recommend a 50 percent tariff on goods imported from the European Union starting June 1. Markets well, they reacted. The Dow S and P 500 and Nasdaq all closing down.

I want to go straight to business editor Richard Quest. Business editor at large Richard Quest. Richard, there's about 50 different ways I could take this. So I just want to start with beyond the fact that why give anybody a quiet Friday? What's the move right now? When you talk to your sources in Europe, when you talk to market participants about this kind of ratcheting back up?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: No one knows, no one knows what to believe because there's two distinct theories here of which you are very familiar. The first one is look at what he does, not what he says. And the second corollary to that, if you will, is that he always backs out, he always chickens out in the end and he ratchets down.

The problem is it takes a brave person to proceed on the basis of just hoping that this time isn't the time the president follows through. When I listened to that news conference or that impromptu Q and A in the Oval Office, it was bewildering. It suggests he doesn't want a deal with Europe. He actually said, I don't want a deal. I want them to bring car manufacturing to the U.S. that's not going to happen.

So I can't see how they get out of it in terms of Samsung and Apple and all the others. Again, they constantly ratchet up. So what is the definition of success as seen by the President? My gut feeling tells me it's some sort of wishy washy agreement that he can hang his hat and coat on and say, look what I've got lot, but actually doesn't really change the terms of trade much. MATTINGLY: Yes, it's obviously, we're all trying to figure it out.

We've seen elements of that obviously in the U.K. deal, the walk back on the China peak fight that was going on. But this to your point, those words in the press conference today or impromptu press conference, they were the, oh, OK, we're going to do this. Richard Quest, always a pleasure, my friend. Thanks so much. Let's go straight to CNN's Jeff Zeleny the White House.

Jeff, Well, Richard, I was talking about the idea I don't want a deal, which he just said flat out in the Oval Office today. What are people saying behind the scenes at the White House?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, that certainly underscores the point that this is a threat. This is a way for President Trump to underscore the fact that he believes the E.U. has not been responding quickly enough.

[17:05:00]

But the fact of the matter is still, Phil, people here at the White House, I talked to some advisers, were a little surprised this morning when the President sent this out on social media pretty early in the morning, and they've been following him all day, as opposed to him following some official schedule here. He sent that out. He's been agitated, quite frankly, and he has not been talking about trade and tariffs for almost two weeks now. So he clearly wanted to revive that.

But when he was in the Oval Office today, when he was asked about these specifically, again, he raised the grievances he often does about the EU.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I've been saying to everybody, they've treated us very badly over the years. It was formed in order to hurt the United States, in order to take advantage of the United States, and they've done that. And I just said, it's time that we play the game the way I know how to play the game. You know, nobody -- they've taken advantage of other people representing this country, and they're not going to do that any longer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So this all comes as these trade negotiations have been underway. I mean, there's about a little over a month remaining before that to July 8 deadline. Again, we should circle all of the deadlines on trade and tariffs in pencil because they are ever changing, Phil, as you well know. But the E.U. is not looking kindly on this. They say that they will be guided by mutual respect.

So at the end of all this, the market obviously went down today because of this, and I'm not sure if this advanced the cause at all, but the President there is clearly wanting to call out the E.U. once again. So, so much for the 90 deals in 90 days, because these deals, as it turns out, are much more difficult to negotiate country by country. Phil. MATTINGLY: Who knew? Jeff Zeleny. Thank you, my friend. Well, here to discuss Zoe Schiffer, Director of Business and Industry at WIRED, and Jeff Fieldhack, Research Director at Counterpoint. Guys, thanks so much for doing this.

I want to start with you. The idea that Apple can't manufacture phones in the United States, it's clear the President, or at least in terms of what he's saying, doesn't believe that. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They can. They can. A lot of it -- a lot of it's so computerized now. These plants are amazing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Can you explain to people the reality here?

ZOE SCHIFFER, DIRECTOR OF BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY, WIRED: I mean, the reality is that Apple has invested likely billions of dollars on training highly skilled engineers abroad, and there are special centralized machines involved. Could you manufacture an iPhone in the United States? Maybe eventually it would be incredibly expensive. And in the short term, it's simply not feasible.

MATTINGLY: You know, Jeff, the idea of a 25 percent on tariff on iPhones now apparently expanding to pretty much the entire phone market. If you're a consumer right now and you're seeing this, what does it mean for you?

JEFF FIELDHACK, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, COUNTERPOINT: Right. Apple's brand is so strong. It's not like people would by another OEM's devices. However, it still would be a negative for Apple because the holding periods would increase. People would, you know, they're already long at three and a half years. They could go to five years. So that would be a negative.

And also the low end of the market where there's a little less brand equity and there's not the stranglehold Apple has at the hot premium tier. You know, there'd be other options from Samsung or TCL or Motorola, and that would also be a headwind for Apple.

MATTINGLY: Zoe, I want to go back to what you were saying, because I think this is a really important point. This isn't just a matter of do they want to make it here or do they have the workforce to make it here. There are supply chains. There are so many entrenched elements of this process of production that explain why they're not here now and why it would be difficult to actually come back -- to come back here. When you talk to executives, when your team talks to executives, what are they saying about all this?

SCHIFFER: I mean, really, behind the scenes, they're walking to find out and say that this is ridiculous. But I think the feeling is that it is completely ridiculous. Not to mention you don't really see Americans who want to necessarily move to company towns to sleep in company dormitories like they do in the countries where these goods are manufactured.

MATTINGLY: Jeff, go ahead.

FIELDHACK: Yes, I was just going to add, this takes an incredible amount of time. Nokia, Samsung, Google, when they moved and diversified their manufacturing from China, Shenzhen, South China, to Vietnam, it took two years. And Vietnam already had the infrastructure and the factories that just needed to be retooled.

You'd be starting from ground zero in the US. So it would take close to five years for this to really scale. And Apple, you know, sells 65 to 70 million smartphones in the US. So to get to that scale, that would -- yeah, that would take just years, and it's not really realistic.

[17:10:00]

MATTINGLY: Jeff, can you. It's difficult to shorthand, I understand. But a 50 percent tariff on Europe, given Europe's markets, Jeff, when you're kind of looking through what that means, what does it tell you?

FIELDHACK: Yes, well, I know telecom the best, but I know electronics and machineries imported. It is == in the telecom space carriers like Verizon, T Mobile, Verizon and AT and T and then, you know, national retailers like Best Buy and Walmart, they will pass that on. They cannot absorb that tariff and Apple won't either.

So what we've already seen is these tariffs are being, you know, the burdens on the U.S. consumer. It's not being absorbed by Apple or any of the channels.

MATTINGLY: Zoe, do you have a sense of what changes course within the administration? Like, Richard made a really good point. Sometimes these are negotiating tactics, sometimes they're threats. Sometimes it seems like maybe the president's board. Sometimes they are very real, as we've seen over the course of the last couple of months. Do you have a sense of which is which here?

SCHIFFER: I don't think anyone has a clear sense of which is which here. I think that it could be the case that Apple makes announcement. There's a small manufacturing project that does open in the United States and that appeases Trump. But I think we're really at the state where it's not clear what he's actually going for here.

MATTINGLY: Zoe Schiffer, Jeff Fieldhack, thank you guys very much. Appreciate it.

Well, just then, to our politics lead. The Trump administration has just put multiple officials at the National Security Council, at the White House on administrative leave. Let's go straight to CNN's Kylie Atwood. Kylie, what's going on here?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're learning that just today the National Security Council put multiple officials on administrative leave as part of this overall reorganization of the National Security Council that the White House is undertaking right now.

Now we know that the interim National Security Adviser is Marco Rubio. He's also, of course, still the Secretary of State. We had reported that there was an expected widespread reorganization that was going to take place at the National Security Council. And now we're learning that is beginning. That has taken started to take place today.

One of the things that we knew over the course of the last few weeks is that many of these NSC staffers, NSC being the body that runs coordination and policy implementation on foreign policy for the White House, a lot of those staffers had to go in for interviews to keep their jobs.

They're being re interviewed effectively when Rubio became the interim Secretary of State. Obviously now we're seeing the results of some of those interviews, but it doesn't seem that this reorganization is fully over yet. So this is an area that we continue to watch as we try and figure out what this new National Security Council is going to look like under the leadership of Marco Rubio.

MATTINGLY: Kylie Atwood for us. Thanks so much. Well, we are also breaking -- following breaking news out of Germany where more than a dozen people have been injured after a knife attack. What we're learning about the suspect in custody.

Plus, the details just coming in about the Pentagon losing contact with an army helicopter incident that forced multiple planes to abort their landings. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:17]

MATTINGLY: Well, just in to our national lead. The army tells the Associated Press that military air traffic controllers lost contact with an army helicopter for about 20 seconds as it neared the Pentagon. This was part of the incident that caused two commercial jets to abort their landings at Washington's Reagan -- Washington Reagan's airport earlier this month. I want to bring in CNN's Pete Muntean. Pete, what happened here?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, this happened back on May 1st and this is a pretty significant incident because it involved the same army helicopter from the Army Helicopter Unit that was involved in the January 29th mid-air collision that killed 67 people over the Potomac River.

This new reporting really shifts the story a lot. And the Pentagon is now saying that its controller in the tower there in the Pentagon were not able to communicate with this helicopter for about 20 seconds as it came in to land there. Remember, this is very close to Washington, Reagan National Airport. We're talking, as the crow flies, not even a mile.

And so it caused these two commercial flights coming into land from the north on the southbound approach to Reagan National Airport to abort their landings and go around out of a lot of concern there in the tower at DCA.

But this only really builds into the narrative of equipment issues here. And the Pentagon has said they're moving the radio transmitter that was at one location at the tower at the Pentagon to a different location. Now, they've also said that there was a breakdown in communications between the tower at National Airport and the tower at the Pentagon.

We learned in a Senate hearing only about a week ago that a hotline that connects those two facilities was broken for a long time. So this really sort of fits into so many problems here. And it's one of the reasons the FAA has recently said they're considering even further restrictions on helicopters near Reagan National Airport, even though this helicopter flight was allowed. They've closed the helicopter route that was in use at the time of the January 29th crash. But it may not be the end of the saga.

MATTINGLY: There are so many of these issues. You've been doing great reporting on all of them. I do want to ask you about another issue which was we're getting the new information about the crash that a small business jet that slammed into a neighborhood in San Diego yesterday. What are you learning?

MUNTEAN: Well, this flight was so, so low, so low that it hit power lines before it slammed into that neighborhood. And we just heard from the National Transportation Safety Board, which is on site now, that they're looking for the cockpit voice recorder here, which will hold some really key clues this plane may have had one.

The NTSB has said definitively that it did not have a flight data recorder. Those are the two critical black boxes that make up the investigation of a commercial crash, although in a private jet like this, they are not mandated by federal rules.

The other thing that we learned from the NTSB here is that the runway lighting system, at least parts of it were out at the time of this crash, which may have made it a little bit harder for this plane that was descending at night in poor weather into Montgomery Gibbs Executive Airport outside of San Diego to see the Runway.

[17:20:13]

And so we're now sort of getting this narrative of failure upon failure. And there are some really big questions here about why this airplane was so low. They were doing something called an instrument approach where you're flying solely in reference in the instruments, because you can't look outside, all you'd see is clouds. That's what you do in poor weather. We know the weather at the time was very, very poor. Thick clouds and low fog. The thing here now is that the airplane was at 500 feet.

According to the flight tracking data, the minimum altitude for the approach that they were on, published by the FAA, was 673 feet. You're not supposed to go below that. And if you are below that, essentially you're flying illegally. And so we know that this airplane was 150 feet, more than 150 below that base altitude. So really, some disturbing details here as this investigation is just getting going.

MATTINGLY: Pete Muntean, as always, thank you very much.

MUNTEAN: Thanks very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, it's Memorial Day weekend and vacation season is upon us, which means so is the chaos of travel, especially at Newark Liberty International Airport, which has had to scale back flights due to major disruptions in recent weeks.

And joining me now with his travel expertise, Brian Kelly, founder of the website The Points Guy. Brian, appreciate your time. I want to start with that issue, Newark, the decrease in flights. Do we have any sense of what kind of ripple effect it will have on the rest of the country over the summer?

BRIAN KELLY, FOUNDER, THEPOINTSGUY.COM: You know, yesterday was the fourth busiest travel day ever, and Newark actually operated pretty smoothly. So, you know, United has shifted a lot of the cancellations. They've gotten to other area airports. So it really hasn't had this tectonic shift on aviation, and people are still traveling in record numbers. So, it's more of a blip on the radar than a core issue in the aviation system in the US.

MATTINGLY: We just have Pete Muntean, and he's been a very busy man over the course of the last several months because of issues with flights, although all sorts of issues. What advice would you give people who are flying this summer?

KELLY: Number one, I mean, if you're flying through Newark, check your flights right now because they have changed and canceled a lot of flights. And to understand that the DOT rules state you're eligible for a full refund if the airline delays or cancels your flight.

But by and large flights are going out and also it's just a great summer to travel. We have data showing that airfare across the board, summer 2025 is down 8 percent. And this is great news for travelers because the last several years we've seen double digit increases.

You know, I think there's a lot of reasons for that, but the economic uncertainty, tariffs. And you know, in April a lot of people booked their summer travel and of course we saw the stock markets go wild. So the airlines have had to incentivize people to fly. And it's clear passengers are willing to fly and travel. But we're seeing people stay much closer to home than, you know, the growth international travel.

MATTINGLY: That point, both the -- what airlines are dealing with the kind of the general economic uncertainty on the consumer side as well that you see in surveys, is that an opportunity? Like, for people who want to travel, for people who have the funds to travel, maybe don't need to be concerned about the broader macroeconomic state of things. Is this the moment to go?

KELLY: Absolutely. And especially talk about Canada, which is one of the top rising destinations because so many Canadians are boycotting the U.S. due to the taunts. We've actually seen airfare drop 15 plus percent. So we're seeing Vancouver and Toronto as hot destinations this summer. Both are fabulous destinations.

So yes, it can be a great summer to travel. The U.S. dollar is still strong, so even if you're thinking about going to Europe, we've been tracking flights, New York to London all summer to $600 or less, down pretty dramatically.

So yes, I would encourage people to take a look at the deals. And even using frequent flyer miles, you know, we kicked off the summer. American Airlines is running a promotion of 5,000 miles -- flights as low as 5,000 miles for August and September, their peak travel season. So I've never seen a major airline start the summer travel season off with such a deal using your miles.

MATTINGLY: So to the idea of miles points, you are The Points Guy after all. And I'm a campaign correspondent at Heart (ph), so I'm also obsessed with miles and points. How do I make sure I'm getting the most out of my credit card points when I travel, when I use my travel rewards.

KELLY: Yeah. So there are a lot of different tools out there now that didn't exist even five years ago. There are tools that will tell you how to use if you've got credit card points. Amex or Chase, those are my favorite kinds because they can -- you can allows you to transfer to different partners.

But you know, high level, the U.S. airlines are getting greedy. They're increasing the amount of miles you need for flights. But the foreign frequent flyer programs, like Flying Blue with Air France, Air Canada, Aeroplan, they have much lower rates to redeem. So high level, transfer your credit card points to foreign frequent flyer programs for the best deals.

MATTINGLY: Brian Kelly, always appreciate your perspective. Thanks so much.

KELLY: Thanks for having me.

[17:25:03]

MATTINGLY: Well, emotional reunions today as Russia and Ukraine start their largest prisoner swap since the war began. But are we any closer to an actual ceasefire to stop the fighting? That's Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: A brutal knife attack in Germany tops our World Lead, 17 people were injured, four of whom remain in critical condition after a stabbing incident at Hamburg Central Station, according to city officials. German police say they arrested a 39-year-old German woman they believe acted alone. The station is the busiest in Germany with an estimated half million travelers per day.

[17:29:58]

Well, also in our World Lead, you're looking at loved ones reuniting in Ukraine today, the start of the largest swap of Russian and Ukrainian prisoners since the start of the war. The deal to swap 1,000 prisoners per side was a result of the first direct talks between Russia and Ukraine that took place in Istanbul last week. While President Trump was hopeful, posting in part, quote, this could lead to something big, question marks, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy said the swap was the only positive outcome of those Istanbul talks, and it proves Russia is continuing to stall. Still, Zelenskyy promised to bring all Ukrainian prisoners home.

Meanwhile, growing skepticism today after a fifth round of indirect nuclear talks with the United States and Iran in Rome. The U.S. insists Iran dismantle its uranium enrichment program, a crucial element to the manufacturing of nuclear weapons, while Iranian officials say that's a red line. CNN's Fred Pleitgen is in Iran's capital, Tehran. Fred, what's the mood there?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Phil. There is certainly a lot of skepticism here on the ground. At the same time, the Iranians are saying these talks are continuing, and as long as they continue, there is a chance for a positive outcome. But you're absolutely right. The Iranians today, after those talks, and this comes in the form of the foreign minister, who's also the lead negotiator for the Iranians, he came out and he said that the talks were very professional, as he put it.

But it seems as though what was achieved, as far as the Iranians are concerned, is they say that the U.S. now better understands Iran's position than they did before. Now, it doesn't really sound like a lot of progress on the face of it. That's also the vibe that we're getting here on the streets of Tehran as well.

We were at Friday prayers earlier today, and on the sidelines of those prayers, I spoke to a couple of people and got their view. Here's what they told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Our supreme leader says we don't want a nuclear weapon. We don't need one, because our power lies in our belief in God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I hope this round will be like previous rounds, and the common points of the parties will get closer so that both countries will benefit. But considering the differences that exist, a result seems a bit out of reach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The negotiations are unilateral. Trump is trying to show his power. But it is our right to have nuclear capabilities. We don't want anything dangerous, just for medical purposes and agriculture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Those are a couple of folks that we were speaking to earlier today on the sidelines of those Friday prayers, and that really is the main issue for the Iranians, and the one that they say is definitely the most difficult in those talks, and that is that enrichment by the Iranians. They say, first of all, they have a right to that, but they also say it's a technology that they've been working on for such a very long time, that homegrown enrichment capability, and it's not something that they're willing to give up.

It's quite interesting to hear also from the U.S. side after those talks. We didn't hear directly from Steve Witkoff, but certainly a source close to Steve Witkoff saying that the U.S. also believes that progress continues to be made, but there are still a lot of factors that need to be worked on. So neither side saying they believe that there's going to be a breakthrough coming fast, but both sides at least saying they are going to meet again for further talks not too distant future, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Fred Pleitgen in Tehran. Thanks so much.

Joining us now, Brett McGurk. He was the special envoy under multiple presidents, National Security Council coordinator under President Biden. Fred, you were involved in Iran talks. I actually want to start with what Fred reported there was -- Iranian officials were saying about the meeting, saying that there's a -- the U.S. better understands the position than they did before. I understand that it seems it not -- may -- may seem innocuous to people. What -- what do those words mean to you?

BRETT MCGURK, FORMER SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY, OBAMA & TRUMP ADMINISTRATIONS: Well, Phil, look, this is one of the most complicated files in Washington, so I give Steve a lot of credit for taking this on. It's complicated issue-wise. It's about nuclear physics. It's about sanctions. It's complicated politically in both capitals. But look, President Trump put a deadline on these talks in March, over -- we have to get a deal in two months, and we're at two months. And this now seems to just be -- being rope-a-doped.

I -- I -- I've negotiated with the Iranians. I kind of see exactly what they're doing. Look, this issue this year is a critical year. Let me tell you why, two things. What's left of the Obama-era JCPOA, one provision in it that even the critics of that deal really like is called snapback. That means any member of that agreement, including the U.K. and France, can go to the U.N. Security Council and say all U.N. sanctions come back on Iran without having to have a vote in the Security Council. It's unilateral. That expires in October.

And that is a key piece of leverage against the Iranians. The Iranians know that. And the Brits and the French have been pretty hard-liners. They said, we're ready to do that if we don't have a new deal. But that's going to expire later this year. Another point about this, you know, Phil, I was in the Situation Room on October 1st last year, 200 ballistic missiles coming from Iran to Israel. It takes 13 minutes for that flight.

And I kept thinking at that moment, if one of those missiles ever had an Iranian nuclear warhead, I don't care if it's five years, 20 years from now, just think about what could happen. I mean, this country, Iran, cannot be on the threshold of having a nuclear weapon. So this issue has to be dealt with. It can be dealt with militarily, as President Trump has threatened. It can be dealt with diplomatically. We want a diplomatic resolution. But as I see this going on, I just don't see this moving to a resolution. I mean, you're talking about more talks. I've seen this pattern before. I think the Iranians just want to kind of string this out.

[17:35:12]

MATTINGLY: But if the -- the -- the key kind of leverage point is the October snapback provisions from other JCPOA signatories, presumably that's kind of the window here. I -- I know the President put a two- month time limit on it. Is that kind of the reality? Like we're going to go up to rope-a-dope until October and then someone's going to make decisions?

MCGURK: This year is a critical issue. This is coming months. I mean, snapback expires in October, but to really implement it, the Europeans would have to move later this summer. So the coming months are really critical here. I thought that deadline Trump put on back in March was right. Increasing sanctions pressure is right, although Iran -- Iran is continuing to export significant amounts of oil.

And military pressure. You have to have a credible military threat in the region to really put teeth on this. And also the -- the reason I -- I was confident this year actually get a pretty good deal. Iran is in the weakest position it has been in decades. Now the Israelis took out all of their strategic air defense back in October. Iran economically is in deep distress. It's lost his bullets, main proxies around the region.

So the -- the -- everything's lined up here for a deal, but the Iranians are very good at just stringing things out. Let's meet today in Rome for two hours. Let's meet again in two weeks in Oman. And before you know it, you just kind of run out of time.

MATTINGLY: Can I ask you, you know, what you flashback to, which, by the way, people may not remember that because --

MCGURK: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- it went miraculously so well. Not miraculously. There was -- there's a reason why it went well. I know you're deeply involved in that. The U.S.-Israel relationship right now. There's a lot of reporting out about potential attacks, the relationship between Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Trump. Sources telling CNN U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff was set to meet with Ron Dermer, confidant of Prime Minister Netanyahu on the sidelines of these talks in Rome. Where does that relationship sit right now?

MCGURK: I think it's pretty solid. There's always tension in the relationship. I think it's pretty solid. But look, Israel is concerned about a deal that doesn't really take care of the problem. They're concerned about an interim deal that kind of kicks the can and then snapback expires. And so that's where you get a lot of this tension. Look, I think it's very good Ron Dermer and David Barnea, the director of Mossad, someone I know very well, was also in Rome talking to Steve on the sidelines of these talks. I think that's good. End of the day, President Trump has a lot of power here because he's got political force in Washington to do a deal. There's only so -- Bibi has limited maneuvering room with Trump. But you have to get a good deal. And I think to get a good deal on these issues, you know, everyone talks about enrichment. It's not just the enrichment program. It is, since Trump left the JCPOA in 2018, Iran has installed or produced new generations of centrifuges. You have to take care of the centrifuges, the stockpiles of highly enriched uranium.

It is a very, very complicated set of issues. It takes weeks and months to negotiate, of constant negotiations. So I'm a little concerned here we're being strung along. And I think you got to put some teeth on this. Every -- every negotiation has to have a deadline. And Trump said two months ago, it'll be two months. We're at that point. So we're now at the point where this can just get rope-a-doped. And I just, I think you got to put a little teeth in here or we're not going to get a deal.

MATTINGLY: There's a little bit of history of deadline shifting, sometimes with the current president. Before I let you go, I do want to ask you, and I know this wasn't your direct file inside the most recent White House, but you pretty much had every file there is in the national security space. Nuclear armed nations, North Korea, there were photos that came out.

Our colleagues over in Asia did some great reporting about this. Rare mission of failure, North Korea's new Navy destroyer completely tipping over during a failed launch. One of the questions I have given kind of the dynamics with Russia and assistance and exchanges going on, what was the sense of North Korea's kind of military strength, authority capability when you were in the White House?

MCGURK: Well, they're nuclear armed power. And the one thing you don't want Iran to do is cross the threshold into being able to produce a nuclear weapon. That's what this is all about. And we kind of missed that window with -- with North Korea a decade and a half ago or so. And that can't happen with Iran. I think, look, as a regional power, North Korea has some, obviously some -- some juice, but not something that we and our allies, I think, can't contain. But we cannot, this is, look, they produce a nuclear weapon.

They do nuclear tests. They launch ballistic, this is North Korea, launch ballistic missiles that can reach our shores. Totally unacceptable. And I do not want to live in a world in which Iran has that power. So that's why this is so important. And these coming months on this issue will really be critical.

MATTINGLY: Brett McGurk, really appreciate it.

MCGURK: Thanks.

MATTINGLY: Thanks very much.

[17:39:40]

Well, a rare diagnosis has Billy Joel canceling all of his upcoming concerts. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here to break down the treatment and recovery. That's next.

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MATTINGLY: In our health lead, the piano man, legendary musician Billy Joel, is taking a break, canceling all upcoming tour dates because of a neurological disorder. A statement on the singer's Instagram page set today says, quote, under his doctor's instructions, Billy is undergoing specific physical therapy and has been advised to refrain from performing during this recovery period. And the statement, Billy Joel says, quote, I'm sincerely sorry to disappoint our audience.

CNN chief medical correspondent and practicing neurosurgeon, Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now. Sanjay, walk people through the diagnosis here.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, no one likes to hear news like this, but let me -- let me talk you through it. There may be some potential treatments for him. This is something known as normal pressure hydrocephalus. Now, hydrocephalus may be a term people are familiar with.

They think about water on the brain, typically think about that happening in babies, but it can happen in adults as well. And Phil, let me show you these images here. You get an idea of what this looks like. In an adult brain, you have normal fluid filled spaces. So on the left, that's what the brain should look like. That's normal.

[17:45:14]

On the right, you can see those black areas in the middle. Phil, those are the ventricles and they carry cerebral spinal fluid. And you can see that they're much larger in -- in the scan on the right. That is normal pressure hydrocephalus. And so that -- that is something that happens typically in people over the age of 65 and it can cause all sorts of different symptoms that I'm sure have led to him canceling the tour.

MATTINGLY: How common is this?

GUPTA: This is not that common, but it is one of those things. I'll tell you, interestingly, just because this is my area of expertise, patients oftentimes will come in with symptoms such as difficulty with walking, balance difficulties. They may have difficulty with their bladder control. They may have difficulty with cognition.

Oftentimes it is confused for things like Alzheimer's disease, for example, or even Parkinson's disease. Patient comes in like that. They get a scan and all of a sudden they see this normal pressure hydrocephalus, which again, you don't want to get any of these diagnoses, but this is potentially a treatable problem. So it's not common, but it can be a mimic of a lot of other neuro sort of diseases out there, Phil.

MATTINGLY: You mentioned area of expertise. You operate on patients with this kind of condition.

GUPTA: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Tell us about the treatment.

GUPTA: Yeah, so it's interesting. So think about that fluid again. That fluid is circulating around the brain, around the spinal cord. First of all, you can actually take a needle and do what's called a lumbar puncture, which is a needle in the lower back and drain some of that fluid. When you drain some of that fluid, the patient might pretty rapidly feel better, improve in their gait, improve in their walking, improve in their cognition.

If that happens, and it does happen a fair number of times, then you can do something that's a bit more permanent. So this is -- this is the brain. You -- you basically would put a catheter sort of through the brain into one of those fluid-filled spaces I mentioned, and then using a catheter sort of drain that fluid into the abdomen, for example. That's called a shunt, something else that people may have heard of.

And I got to tell you, this is rare, but when it comes to someone with what Billy Joel is describing, it could potentially be a very treatable problem. I think that's what they're hoping for. I'm sure he's having those discussions with his doctors right now.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, I think we're all hoping for that. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always, always grateful for your expertise. Thanks so much.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, up next, we've got an update to a story we brought you a few weeks ago here on The Lead, the major legal victory for groups trying to save Florida's beloved manatees.

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[17:51:52]

MATTINGLY: In our Earth Matters Lead, we recently shared with you a story of conservationists in Florida who are fighting to save the manatees. Their main target is the Indian River Lagoon, once the home of dozens of so-called sea cows. Pollution has made the waters unlivable. But as CNN's Randi Kaye reports, a recent ruling by a federal judge could save the gentle giants. A warning, some of this video is disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATRINA SHADIX, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BEAR WARRIORS UNITED: I was ecstatic. It felt like Christmas for the manatees.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Katrina Shadix and the group Bear Warriors United are celebrating a giant leap forward for the protection of manatees in Florida. We recently saw firsthand where the manatees are starving to death in Florida's Indian River Lagoon, which stretches from Palm Beach County to Daytona Beach. The lagoon is where manatees come for the warm water. But in recent years, the northern end of the lagoon has been a death trap for them.

PETER BARILE, MARINE BIOLOGIST, MARINE RESEARCH & CONSULTING INC.: All these homes along the lagoon that are on septic tanks are slowly leaking, literally, tons of nitrogen and phosphorus into the system.

KAYE (voice-over): Marine biologist Peter Barile says those pollutants are being released by septic tanks and water treatment facilities along the lagoon and are fueling algae growth in the water, which is causing the manatees' main food source, seagrass, to die.

BARILE: So, this algae is reducing light down to the seagrasses, essentially smothering them and killing them.

KAYE (voice-over): He says manatees need to eat nearly 100 pounds of vegetation a day. Between December 2020 and April 2022, more than 1,200 manatees died of starvation, most of them here in the northern part of the Indian River Lagoon. Now, a federal judge has temporarily halted the approval of any new septic tank permits along the lagoon.

BARILE: It was a strong move to stop and put a moratorium on any new nitrogen coming from septic tanks.

KAYE (voice-over): The latest ruling follows a 2022 lawsuit in which Bear Warriors United sued Florida's Department of Environmental Protection to help protect the manatees.

SHADIX: They suffered immensely and for a very long time.

KAYE (voice-over): Last month, the same federal judge ruled in favor of Bear Warriors United and against the state, finding Florida's Department of Environmental Protection was, quote, in violation of the Endangered Species Act.

BARILE: There was lax leadership from the state of Florida over decades that allowed this problem to get worse and worse.

KAYE (voice-over): The judge found a definitive causal link between Florida's Department of Environmental Protection wastewater regulations and the ongoing risk to manatees. Just this week, he agreed to what was essentially a wish list from Bear Warriors United, things they wanted the state to fix on behalf of the manatees.

In addition to halting septic tank permits, Florida must submit a plan to monitor manatees' health and set up a supplemental feeding program for manatees in this lagoon.

SHADIX: If we do this feeding program and give them an abundance of their natural food source, a healthy food source, starvation goes away.

KAYE (voice-over): We reached out to both the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, but neither provided a response to our questions. The state's Department of Environmental Protection has filed a notice of appeal, signaling it plans to challenge the case in federal court.

[17:55:01]

SHADIX: I'm fighting to the death and hopefully it won't be manatee deaths.

KAYE: Are you hopeful the manatee population will come back here?

SHADIX: Now that we won this lawsuit, we think we have a really good chance of working with the state to make sure the manatees don't go extinct on our watch.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE (on camera): It's worth mentioning a few more things the judge is ordering the state to do. Florida now has to issue quarterly reports detailing the results of the supplemental feeding program. The state also has to document mortality statistics for the manatees and submit quarterly reports regarding the water and the seagrass conditions. Phil?

MATTINGLY: Randi Kaye in Florida, thanks so much.

Well, up next, we're live on the campus of Harvard after the university fought back and temporarily won the latest chapter of its legal fight against the White House. But what happens next? Stick with us.

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[17:59:55]

MATTINGLY: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly. This hour, Harvard fights back after the White House bans the university from enrolling international students.