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The Lead with Jake Tapper
WH: Trump To Decide On Iran Action Within Two Weeks; CDC Vaccine Expert Resigns After RFK Jr. Purges Advisers; Starship Rocket Explodes During Routine Test; Fever Coach Calls Out Officials After Heated Game. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired June 19, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BARD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: OK. And do you think he's taking them into account at all?
TODD: I think of course he listens, he canvases, that's -- this is part of how he makes decisions. But in the end, he understands his base and he understands that they like strength.
HUNT: Always the calculation, right? Strength versus weakness, how it looks on the international stage and also here at the domestic political one. Thank you all very much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Thanks to you at home for joining us as well.
Do not go anywhere, "The Lead" with Jake Tapper starts right now.
[17:00:35]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Trump says the decision to go to war will come within the next two weeks. The Lead starts right now.
After days of keeping the world guessing whether the U.S. will take military action against Iran, President Trump now says he will decide within the next two weeks. This as the White House claims that Iran has never been closer to having a nuclear weapon. We have teams on the ground at the White House in Iran and in Israel.
Plus, a SpaceX Starship rocket explodes during a launch in Texas. It's the third consecutive failure, though Elon Musk is saying it's, quote, "just a scratch." And at odds. federal agents attempt to enter Dodger Stadium today. And now the team and the Trump administration are giving very different versions about what went down.
Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. The breaking news in our world lead, set your calendars, President Trump's urgent consequential decision on whether or not the U.S. will strike Iran nuclear facilities will be made, he said today, sometime in the next two weeks. The White House today saying the president has set this two week mark because he believes there is a, quote, "substantial chance of negotiations that may or may not take place with Iran in the near future." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If there's a chance for diplomacy, the president's always going to grab it, but he's not afraid to use strength as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Reason was given as to why Trump is holding out hope for diplomacy. But in order for any deal to be made, the White House says Iran would have to agree to no enrichment of uranium, blocking any potential path to a nuclear weapon. It's worth noting that yesterday on this show, former Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant told us this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOAV GALLANT, FORMER ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER: What Israel has done during the last 20 months and especially during the last days is something tremendous. I believe that we took the Iranian nuclear program back a few years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The president will receive intelligence briefings from his National Security Council for the next several days, we're told. Today we're seeing more destruction from strikes in Iran and in Israel. Israel says at least 271 people across the country were admitted to hospitals this morning after Iranian strikes, one strike actually hitting a hospital itself. About 400 patients were there and 80 were reported injured. Iran claims the strike was targeting a nearby technology park and not the hospital. Nonetheless, the strike caused Israel's defense minister to say that Iran's supreme leader cannot be allowed to, quote, "continue to exist."
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked about those remarks today, saying he instructed that no one in Iran should have immunity. He's instructing the military to intensify strikes on Iranian targets. A Washington based group called Human Rights Activist says Israeli strikes in Iran have now killed 639 people, including 263 civilians. We will take you inside Iran in just moments, but let's start today with CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House where the decision will be made.
And Kristen, this afternoon you asked the White House press secretary to explain why the president has hope for negotiations.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake. And just to go back a few steps here, we still don't really understand what this two weeks means. We asked questions as to what happens at the end of the two weeks. Does that mean that if Iran doesn't come to the table that President Trump will greenlight some kind of attacks on Iran? What would those attacks look like?
What would U.S. involvement look like? We still don't have the answers to any of that. And of course, as we know, I've reported, President Trump has been wary to get the U.S. involved in what he says could be a long term war. There have been talks about doing kind of one strike here or there, but President Trump was not convinced that that would actually be what happened, that he might get tied up into a longer term war in the Middle East.
Now we have heard him with more aggressive rhetoric in recent days and a lot of this has been a question of whether or not he was trying to get Iran to the table. And as you noted, I asked Karoline Leavitt why -- what has changed? Why now another two weeks? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: We have heard from a number of U.S. officials who say that Iran doesn't want to make a deal, that they are just stringing the United States along. What is to say that they are not going to continue to do so if we don't -- if we continue to give them extensions now two weeks before 60 days?
LEAVITT: Look, Iran is in a very weak and vulnerable position because of the strikes and the attacks from Israel. And with respect to the president's statement, I shared that with all of you. And he has been very direct and clear, Iran can and should make a deal. We sent a deal to them that was practical, that was realistic, or they will face grave consequences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[17:05:15]
HOLMES: So there Leavitt saying that it was because Iran is significantly -- significantly weaker. The other thing I want to point out here is that we know that Middle Eastern envoy Steve Witkoff was meeting with the United Kingdom's foreign minister today here at the White House. That is significant because that same foreign minister is going to be traveling to Geneva to meet with Iran's foreign minister on Friday. And Witkoff is not scheduled at this point to be part of that, but there are expectations that there might be some kind of conversation that might move in the right direction during those negotiations.
TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes at the White House for us, thanks so much. As tensions escalate, many residents of Tehran have fled the city. CNN's Fred Pleitgen is the first Western journalist to enter Iran since its latest conflict with Israel began. He has a look at multiple missile impact sites.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): As Iran and Israel continue to trade salvos of bombs and missile, in Tehran, the cleanup is in full swing in residential areas that were struck. We went to several impact sites, buildings partially collapsed in some completely destroyed in others.
PLEITGEN: The authorities here say this building was flattened in the first wave of strikes against targets in Tehran, but in other parts of Iran as well. And they say in this site alone, six people were killed and two bodies are still buried under the rubble.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): As tensions between Iran and Israel continue to escalate, many residents have left Tehran, the streets empty, some shops closed, but defiance remains. Billboards across Tehran showing those killed by the Israeli aerial attack and vowing revenge. This one addressing Israel directly saying, you have started it, we will finish it as Tehran's leadership says it won't back down.
If the Zionist regime's hostile actions persist, our answers will be even more decisive and severe, the president says.
And Iran saying the Israelis are also targeting civilian installations. Taking us to the state T.V. channel IRIB, recently bombed by two Israeli airstrikes. An anchor had been reading the news as the building was hit. This is that studio now burned out, with only a skeleton of the charred anchor desk left. Authorities say three state T.V. employees were killed here.
PLEITGEN: You can see how much heat must have been admitted by the impact and by the explosion. The phones that they had here are molten, here also the keys molten, this screen. And there's actually someone's lunch still at their desk standing here, which probably they would have been wanting to eat until they had to evacuate the building. You can see there's a spoon here that's also been melted away by this explosion. And the devastation here is massive at the Iranian state broadcaster.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Iran's leadership vows to persevere, saying it will continue to target Israel if the Israeli aerial campaign doesn't stop.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: And our thanks to Fred Pleitgen in Tehran for providing that rare look at what is happening inside that country. Now we go to Israel just east of Tel Aviv, town of Ramat Gan, CNN's Jeremy Diamond gained access to a residential and commercial building destroyed today by an Iranian ballistic missile. Here's a look at what he found.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: So we just arrived on the scene of this ballistic missile strike.
DIAMOND (voice-over): The scale of the damage is stark. A single missile has shaved off the side of this building, partially crushed another, wrecking cars and shattering windows for blocks. Colonel Landsberg and his team immediately push into the building, going floor by floor, apartment by apartment, searching for casualties and evacuating survivors. Inside the building that was struck, it's easy to see how deadly this attack could have been.
DIAMOND: The destruction here is just enormous. I mean, it's hard to describe if you weren't to see these pictures. Everything is covered in dust and soot. And this right here is the building's gym, or what once was the gym.
DIAMOND (voice-over): But while the people evacuating this building are shaken, they are alive.
LT. COL. GOLAN LANDSBERG, IDF SEARCH & RESCUE: Five minutes ago we finished up scanning the entire building from bottom top.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (on camera): And, Jake, Lt. Col. Landsberg there from the IDF Search and Rescue unit told me that it was a credit only to the bomb shelters and people following instructions to get into those shelters before that missile hit that resulted in zero fatalities from that significant level of destruction. Nonetheless, 271 people were injured, most of them lightly injured by four separate Iranian ballistic missile attacks today. But more importantly, perhaps what we are seeing is that Iran once again demonstrated today that it still has the ability to fire some larger barrages of missiles that get through those air defense systems and cause significant destruction in Israel today. Jake.
[17:10:14]
TAPPER: All right, Jeremy diamond in Tel Aviv, thanks.
Here now is Tom Nides. He is the former U.S. Ambassador to Israel during the Biden administration. We should also disclose he's married to a CNN executive.
Ambassador Nides, thanks for being here. So you heard Yoav Gallant on our show yesterday, we ran a clip saying that he thinks Israel has degraded Iran's nuclear weapons abilities, setting it back a few years. So why the rush for a decision now within two weeks for the -- for the Trump administration to decide whether or not to drop a bunker buster on the Fordo facility where the nuclear enrichment is? If the program has been set back years, it would seem to me that that gives Trump theoretically at least some breathing room to have an attempt at a diplomatic solution, no?
THOMAS NIDES, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Well, listen, if we stand back and look what's happened in the last five days, 400 ballistic missiles have been shot in the state of Israel. Can you imagine if one of those ballistic missiles had a nuclear warhead? The country that is talking about doing this -- is doing this to Israel has stated that as their goal --
TAPPER: Right.
NIDES: -- is destroy Israel. So this is the moment. This is the moment, this is the moment either by diplomacy or by sheer force going after Fordo that they should actually take action. And in my view, this is, I don't normally agree with President Trump, but if you can get there in a diplomatic way, I'm all in. OK.
But if they can't get in by a diplomatic way, they need to destroy Fordo. By way, this is not a simple task as you know. You know, during the Biden administration and the Obama administration, this is not new, the -- the actual buster bomb was created --
TAPPER: Yes.
NIDES: -- during the Obama administration. The how we've looked at this, we've looked at this many, many times. It's not simple as President Trump now understands it to be a very complicated mission.
TAPPER: Why is it not simple? I mean, obviously it's a huge plane and a huge bomb that only the U.S. possesses and Israel can't do it. But why is it -- what is complicated about it, it seems like if you're going to drop a bomb on the Fordo nuclear enrichment mountain where this is taking place underneath the mountain, that's at least a military target, theoretically, as opposed to these strikes in the city of Tehran that are obviously killing civilians.
NIDES: But listen, I'm not in this situation room anymore. You know, General Crudelo (ph), who the -- who is spending a lot of time, Crudelo, who's spending a lot of time on this, this has never actually been tested in a real way. Yes, they've simulated the bombing of -- of -- of a mountaintop, but we never know how it actually happens. But let's assume it happens in a fairly effective way, it's not maybe one bomb, it may be two or three bombs. I think what the president is weighing is with the same thing that Joe Biden weighed and obviously Barack Obama would, the ancillary effects of this --
TAPPER: What are they, potentially?
NIDES: Potentially have a lot of forces in the Middle East.
TAPPER: Yes.
NIDES: And the Iranians have a lot of forces as sleeper cells all -- all over the Middle East. That should not stop us, however, of eliminating the threat to the State of Israel. And we should get there -- I would like to get there by a diplomatic way, I think, as the President Trump has been trying to do, and I give him credit for trying to do it. If it can't happen, they should do it by using the equipment that is now provided by the United States.
TAPPER: So I want to play something that Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said today about President Trump's decision. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: President Trump will do what's best for America. I trust his judgment. He's a tremendous friend, a tremendous world leader, a tremendous friend of Israel and the Jewish people. And we will do what we have to do, and we are doing it. We are committed to destroying the nuclear threat -- the threat of nuclear annihilation against Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, explain what you just said, if a diplomatic solution cannot be released -- cannot be reached, then what? Then the United States should use the B-2 bomber and drop this mountain buster or bunker buster bomb on Fordo, that's what you think?
NIDES: Yes. If we cannot reach a diplomatic solution, I think it's clear that Israel has done a very good job of diminishing the air supremacy -- hey have air supremacy now over Iran. They've -- they've done a very good job of damaging the missile defense systems and the launchers. This is the time either to force the Iranians to the table to do a diplomatic solution or for this administration, for the Trump administration to take this opportunity to put the -- a bomb in the Fordo facility and end that forever.
To be clear, the reason we've always wanted to do a diplomatic solution, that is a long term solution. There's nothing to stop the Iranians five years from now to rebuild their nuclear capacity. So there's an opportunity right now.
TAPPER: Yes.
NIDES: And they should take it.
TAPPER: Netanyahu said Iran was closing in on being able to build a nuclear weapon. We know that they have the nuclear enrichment, we know that they have the ballistic missile. The question always has been how long from the nuclear enrichment before they're able to weaponize it and put it on a missile.
[17:15:05]
And the question about how long that would take and how where the Iranians were in that process is still an open debate. I want you to take a listen to what Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, he's the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said just yesterday on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK WARMER (D-VA): We got a brief as recently as Monday that seems ages ago that said the intelligence community has not changed their assessment that Iran had not moved towards an actual weaponization. Their job is to speak truth to power, not cook the books. When you cook intelligence, you end up with a war like Iraq where a president at that point didn't follow the intelligence and the intelligence was manipulated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So the way that CIA, the former CIA Director David Petraeus explained this to us yesterday was both actually can be accurate. The Iranians can be right on the verge of being able to do this, while also there has not been an order given to do it. So neither Warner and Tulsi Gabbard are wrong, nor Trump, Netanyahu and -- and Ratcliffe, the head of the CIA, are wrong. Is that your understanding? Ratcliffe apparently had some sort of, I think I read this in the Post, metaphor where it's like the Iranians are on the 99 yard line and no, they haven't given the order to go into the end zone, but -- or the one yard line, I should say, but -- but they haven't been given the order to go into the end zone, but they're right there. Is -- is that how you see it?
NIDES: So let's assume it's six months to a year because we have the same intelligence, the weaponization is actually taking the -- the -- this nuclear, this bomb and attaching it to a missile. It's -- it's very complicated and very difficult. But let's assume it's a year away, if I'm leaving the state of Israel, and we now have a weakened Iran, which is clearly the case --
TAPPER: Right.
NIDES: -- and they have an opportunity to try to either by diplomatic means, which I'm quite supportive of, or by military means, I wouldn't be waiting to the 9th month or the 11th month, and quite frankly, none of us know. I mean, we have intelligence, we have pretty good intelligence. But you know, again, if someone was living there and talking to my Israeli friends every day and seeing what they're under right now, 400 ballistic missiles have rained down on the state of Israel in the last five days, right?
TAPPER: Right.
NIDES: And only because of the defense systems, as you know, they've been able to protect the state of Israel. This is a threat they cannot -- you know, I have a lot of differences with my friend Bibi Netanyahu, but I do -- I do agree with him, the threat of Iran to the state of Israel is the threat for the state of Israel.
TAPPER: So just one last question, why is the threat from Iran any worse than the potential threat from Pakistan or North Korea or India or Israel or any other country that has a nuclear weapon, whether or not they've admitted it?
NIDES: Because very simply, Iran has stated that their goal is to destroy the state of Israel. OK? This is not like theory, this is not like -- this is -- the supreme leader has articulated it to kill the Zionists. The fact of the matter is you have a country whose goal is to destroy Israel, who wants to obtain a nuclear weapon and has no problem of shooting four or five hundred ballistic missiles into the country. It needs to be stopped, hopefully diplomatically.
I give -- hopefully that President Trump will figure out a way to do that or necessarily by military means.
TAPPER: Tom Nides, former U.S. Ambassador to Israel during the Biden administration, thank you so much. Appreciate your being here.
As President Trump weighs whether or not to attack Iran, some members of Congress raise concern about wartime powers. What happens if the president just decides to bypass the legislative branch altogether? One senator will weigh in. And another SpaceX Starship explosion in Texas, neighbors want answers. That's up next too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:22:45] TAPPER: Our politics lead follows closely on our world lead as President Trump considers whether to commit the U.S. military to help Israel take out Iran's capacity to build a nuclear weapon. Some Senate Democrats are raising concerns that he may act without consulting Congress. We are joined by one such Democrat, Senator Jeff Merkley, of Oregon, who's on the Foreign Relations Committee.
And you have stated very clearly that President Trump should not act on his own if he does decide to use U.S. force. Give us some of the reasoning behind your -- your statement.
SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): Well, let's just start with the constitutional issue that it's Congress that should make the decision. There's been no authorization for the use of military force by Congress to say to the president, you can do this. That's -- that's one. But --
TAPPER: Can I interrupt on that one? And then --
MERKLEY: Sure.
TAPPER: -- and then I'll let you continue. Presidents have been ignoring that for decades.
MERKLEY: They -- they have.
TAPPER: And in fact, the last authorization for use of force was Iraq, right? And President Obama was using the Afghanistan authorization to do stuff in Yemen and Syria, you know.
MERKLEY: I know a few of us keep saying the constitutional framework matters --
TAPPER: Yes.
MERKLEY: -- but you're absolutely right, folks say, hey, if you're head of the military, under Article 2 of the Constitution, you can do with the military what you want, but certainly not what the Founders believe. But let me go to the more practical considerations, because first, it is very easy to get into a war and very complicated to get out, especially when it's not clear what the end -- end goal is. And so, yes, you start with this, oh, isn't this just simple? We fly over, be a B-2 bomber, drop a big bomb, are we -- are we done? Wait, wait, we have to make sure that is not shot -- shot down in the -- in the course of things.
So we better take out the air defenses, we better take out the airfields. Oh, we better make sure that our fighter jets are not confronted in -- in any way. It gets more and more complicated. And then what do you -- what goes along with that? Is there an after effect?
And it's not just one trip. Oh, now we have to drop three of those bombs. And you slide into more complexity, which is, I can tell you, the Defense Department right now when they're moving all of those assets into the Middle East, it's because of the complexity. And there's a complexity with all the Shiite militias that might respond against U.S. sites once we're -- we're in that. So that's the -- first thing, it's easy to get in first, and then there's the unintended path.
[17:25:00]
For example, when we took out Saddam Hussein, what we did is we took out the counterweight to Iran, allowing Iran to essentially establish militias across a huge arc that stretched clear to Syria. Well, that wasn't anticipated, we went, oh, you know, we'll go in and we have superior force. We'll -- we'll -- and it was bad intelligence to begin with. There were no weapons of mass destruction.
Here is a third key point, Trump wants to be a negotiator and --
TAPPER: Yes.
MERKLEY: -- bring peace.
TAPPER: Right.
MERKLEY: Is he going instead going to be another Republican president who yields to pressure and slides into a war in the Middle East? That is a fundamental question. He has established a framework for negotiations with Iran. That framework can be of enormous value to the world right now, and he will lose that if we become a force joining with Israel to destroy Iran.
TAPPER: So let's talk about the intelligence, because that is certainly one of the things that is being asked out, whether or not Iran actually is potentially weeks away from the ability to build a nuclear weapon. Senator Markwayne Mullin, who was on the Senate Armed Services Committee, was on the show yesterday, and he told me -- he talked about the intelligence that the U.S. is getting about how close Iran is to building a nuclear weapon, being able to build one. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: The assets that we have now, the information we're receiving, that we're using with our partners in Israel, and the information we're receiving from the intelligence community is that they are very close. I'm telling you, the information that we've received --
TAPPER: Who's we?
MULLIN: -- fails us. Those of us that have received the information will tell you that they are very, very close to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now, Senator Mark Warner, who is the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, says that there has been no order from the Iranian leaders to, you know, to start building a nuclear weapon. But what do you make of that? MERKLEY: Well, when he says they're very close, well, it is true that they have enriched far beyond what you need for civilian purposes. That's 3 percent to 5 percent. They've enriched quite a lot to a level of about 60 percent. It's easier to go from 60 percent to 90 percent. So you can characterize that as close.
But as soon as you know the details, it's not close. You have to be converted into a metallic form. It has to be arranged in a -- in a ball with enormous amounts of high explosive, all detonating to compress it. All this is is really advanced engineering. And so when people say a more realistic estimate, if they were all out, you know, interrupted somewhere closer to a year, that's -- that's what I hear the intelligence saying.
TAPPER: Do you think there will be any sort of vote? Senator Tim Kaine was on the show yesterday. He's a Democrat who's been beating the War Powers Act drum for as long as I've known him, since Obama in Syria back in the day talking about how the same argument you're making, this is Congress's responsibility to declare war. And after that, then the commander in chief, the president, takes over. If there's going to be a vote, do you think Democrats will vote in favor of forcing a vote, empowering the Senate and -- and not allowing the president to do this on his own?
MERKLEY: I imagine it would be a split vote. I think -- I don't think Democrats are completely united on this -- on this question. But at least to have the debate, to wrestle with it, to take the -- the hearings under, you know, debate as a group, the intelligence, and understand the other point on intelligence is that Iran had not made the decision to make a nuclear weapon. I heard this from the team under Trump's first administration, we heard it under Obama, we heard it -- we heard it under Biden, that is still the intelligence we're hearing from -- from the head of intelligence now, Tulsi Gabbard.
Because -- and why -- why did Iran never make that decision? Probably because they knew that the moment they decided to actually go from more enriched uranium to get to a bomb would trigger the type of thing that's happening right now.
TAPPER: All right, Senator Jeff Merkley, Democrat of Oregon, thanks so much. Good to see you, sir.
MERKLEY: Thank you.
[17:29:01]
TAPPER: A warning from a vaccine expert who just resigned from the Centers for Disease Control. Why this doctor is telling Americans that she no longer has confidence in the data and the science under RFK Jr.'s control. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back. For years, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has used false and misleading claims to undermine public confidence that vaccines, especially childhood vaccines, are indeed safe, which they are. During his confirmation hearing to be head of the Health and Human Services Department in January, Kennedy testified that he was neither anti- vaccine nor anti-industry, despite his decades long anti vaccine record being quite well documented. And now in his new role, Kennedy has been predictably chipping away at vaccine policy and research.
Last week, RFK Jr. fired all 17 members of a Centers for Disease Control Vaccine Advisory Committee that makes recommendations on who should get certain vaccines and when. Kennedy went on to name eight new members to the panel, two of whom were paid to be witnesses in trials against a vaccine maker. Last month, RFK Jr. announced the COVID vaccine will no longer be recommended for healthy children and pregnant women. This prompted a top CDC COVID vaccine advisor to resign.
And now this week, Dr. Fiona Havers, a leading scientist and vaccine expert at the CDC has also resigned. In an interview with "The New York Times," Dr. Havers warned, quote, if it isn't stopped and some of this isn't reversed like immediately, a lot of Americans are going to die as a result of vaccine preventable diseases, unquote. And HHSS -- HHS spokesman responded to the times that it's committed to, quote, following the gold standard of scientific integrity. Dr. Havers joins us now. Dr. Havers, what was the tipping point for you?
[17:35:01]
DR. FIONA HAVERS, FORMER CDC INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: So there were a number of events that led to my resignation. There were two main ones. One was that on May 27th, RFK Jr. announced that the CDC recommendations for COVID vaccines were going to be changed. No one at CDC involved in vaccine policy was involved in that decision. He unilaterally announced a change to the immunization schedule on X without our involvement. And a change to the CDC recommendation schedule is important because if it is on the CDC's recommended immunization schedule, insurance covers it. So this is potentially denying access to COVID vaccines for people that may need them.
Second of all, so when that happened, I considered resigning at that time and there was some pushback from within CDC and what was eventually changed on the schedule was not quite as bad as what was announced on X. But so I was sticking around. Then we have this vaccine policy meeting where COVID vote was supposed to occur next week and that was I was scheduled to present at that meeting.
So I thought I could stay, maybe do some good staying at CDC within this setting even though this was unprecedented interference with the COVID vaccine policy process. However, last week when I heard that he had fired all 17 members of the ACIP Committee, at that moment I knew I was done.
TAPPER: Yes. So you have warned that if this isn't stopped and some of it reversed immediately, a lot of Americans are going to die as a result of vaccine preventable diseases. What's your biggest concern for the health of Americans right now?
HAVERS: I'm a physician and I've seen people die in the hospital of vaccine preventable diseases. And I think that if this interference with the vaccination recommendation process continues there -- if the vaccination recommendations are more restrictive, Americans will no longer have coverage and vaccines will no longer be paid for. And people that need vaccines will not be able to get them. We're going to see an increase in measles outbreaks.
We'll see babies dying of pertussis. We'll see older adults dying unnecessarily of influenza and COVID-19 because they were confused about what vaccines to get. I also think that increased -- decrease -- an increase in vaccine misinformation is going to be harmful to the Americans because if vaccination rates drop in general, more Americans are going to get vaccine preventable diseases. And it's really -- that's very concerning to me as a physician.
TAPPER: Do you think the American people can still trust the CDC for reliable, accurate medical information?
HAVERS: I would say that the data coming out of the CDC is still very good. As of a week ago, I ran a large hospitalization surveillance -- large hospitalization tracking system where we tracked COVID and RSV hospitalizations. And we did that with state health departments across the country. That -- that data is reliable. And I was going to be presenting that data publicly.
My concern is how that data is interpreted and whether or not they even pay attention to the scientific evidence that usually goes into vaccine policy recommendations. That's my concern that the people making the decisions and looking at the evidence won't actually be evaluating it properly.
TAPPER: What would be signs that we can't trust the CDC anymore? What -- what are you looking for before you sound the alarm about the reliability of what the CDC is saying?
HAVERS: Well, I think the vaccine policy recommendations are in jeopardy, like right now, like I -- the change that was made to the CDC immunization schedule a couple weeks ago that was announced unilaterally by RFK Jr. on X without CDC's input, we're not the recommendations that would be coming out.
I will say that -- those recommendations potentially restricted access for healthy infants to get COVID vaccines. And that is a group that is at high risk for hospitalization. I know this because like that's the data that my hospitalization -- that hospitalization system that I used to oversee collects it.
And so I think -- so I think I'll really be looking to see how these new committee members who are really not the people that would normally be chosen to be sitting on this committee for the most part. What kind of questions they're asking? What -- what actually is presented at the meeting?
TAPPER: Yes.
HAVERS: I will say for my CDC colleagues, many of us reviewing this public meeting as a last chance to get data out, get the scientific evidence upon which vaccine policy decisions be made out into the public sphere. But what this committee now that they fired all of the sitting experts with all the institutional knowledge, all of the background that we normally making these decisions now that they're all gone, I have no idea what the meeting is going to look like.
TAPPER: Dr. Fiona Havers, thank you so much. Appreciate you're coming forward today. Appreciate it.
HAVERS: Thank you.
[17:39:49]
TAPPER: Take a look at the latest SpaceX explosion. Elon Musk calls this just a scratch. Really? That's next.
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TAPPER: A massive explosion rocks our Out of This World Lead. You're looking at the huge blast for a night that took out another SpaceX Starship rocket. This is the third time the spacecraft has been destroyed during a test while SpaceX CEO, Elon Musk, is not too bothered by this latest mishap or so he claims some people living near the blast zone. Well, they are not too happy here CNN's Ed Lavandera.
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ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The shockwave from this explosion registered as a small earthquake. The blinding glow of the massive fireball lit up the night sky. It wasn't a rocket launch, but the unexpected eruption of SpaceX Starship.
Elon Musk dismissed the catastrophic scene as quote, just a scratch. Rene Medrano described it as Armageddon.
RENE MEDRANO, LIVES NEAR STARBASE: It felt like a bomb went off like a big bomb went off.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): What do you call this place?
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MEDRANO: Emirates.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): In April, Medrano showed us around his home, which sits about 10 miles from the SpaceX Starbase facility. And from here, you can see the rocket.
MEDRANO: What do you call this place? Emirates in April. Medrano showed us around his home, which sits about 10 miles from the SpaceX Starbase facility.
LAVANDERA: And from here, you can see the rocket.
MEDRANO: We can if you get right over here.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): Medrano and other South Texas residents have become increasingly critical of SpaceX. He says Wednesday night's explosion rattled his home.
MEDRANO: It really is disturbing. It's messing up our backyard is what it is. And then for this to happen, I mean, how can that how can someone not be frustrated?
LAVANDERA (voice-over): The explosion looked like a storm captured on weather radar. That plume you see emerging is smoke and debris emanating from the test site. SpaceX says a pressurized tank on the spacecraft experienced a quote, sudden energetic event, igniting several fires.
Company said there were no injuries and no hazards to nearby residents. CNN senior space and science reporter, Jackie Wattles, says Musk and SpaceX do not see this as a major setback.
JACKIE WATTLES, SENIOR WRITER, CNN SPACE & SCIENCE: work around it, identify the issue, and then they get a new rocket on the pad and keep working towards that goal.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): In fact, Musk recently highlighted SpaceX's ability to quickly build Starship rockets and continue testing.
ELON MUSK: We can produce a ship roughly every two or three weeks. We're aiming for the ability to produce a thousand ships a year. So three ships a day.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): The last three Starship rocket test launches have ended in explosive failures. A few broke apart just minutes after launching. In January, a Starship rocket broke apart over the Caribbean Sea. Musk often jokes that success is uncertain, but entertainment is guaranteed.
WATTLES: Starship is the vehicle that's supposed to carry the astronauts down to the lunar surface in 2027. So I do think at this point there is a lot of gut checking going on behind the scenes about whether or not you can reach, you know, that timeline.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): The mishaps do raise questions, though, about when the Starship rocket will be able to move cargo and astronauts into space safely.
Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.
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TAPPER: Out thanks to CNN's Ed Lavandera for that report.
Coming up, controversy on the court after another rough night in the WNBA. Much of the attention is now on the refs. That's ahead.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, is that displacement? I think it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Marina Mabrey who's going to be ejected. If the official saw that Marina Mabrey is going to be ejected.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they're going to go and look at it.
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TAPPER: Tuesday night's WNBA game between the Indiana Fever and the Connecticut Sun at times looked more like boxing instead of basketball. Phenom Caitlin Clark was poked in the eye, then pushed to the ground. Just one of several very hard fouls during the game. As Washington Post sports columnist Candace Buckner put a quote, after a night of physical fouls and hurt feelings, the WNBA clearly has an officiating problem. Will the league fix it? Unquote.
Joining us now to discuss USA Today sports columnist Christine Brennan, who is a friend of the show. She's also the author of a brand new book coming out in July titled "On Her Game: Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports." And we will have you back on July 3rd to talk about that book. But as long as we can benefit from your expertise, Christine, after Tuesday's game, Fever head coach, Stephanie White, noted how the players are getting stronger. The players in the WNBA are getting better, but not the officials, not the refs. What do you think?
CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: I agree with Stephanie White. She knows what she's talking about, Jake. And without a doubt, today is the greatest day in women's sports until tomorrow. And by that I mean coaching, training, the money, the experience, everything about women athletes, better, stronger, faster. And the WNBA referees clearly have just not kept up.
Especially egregious this situation is because you have Caitlin Clark arriving in the league last year, as of course you and I have discussed several times, coming in with this incredible fan base, new eyes, record T.V. ratings, record attendance, teams moving to bigger arenas because of Caitlin Clark and the Fever coming to town. This is the moment. Now you've got the eyeballs.
This is what the WNBA have covered since the 90s. This is what the WNBA has been hoping for. Attention, breaking through in the male- dominated mainstream sports world that we're in. And instead, they didn't rise to the occasion in several ways. I've got some others in the book in terms of some of the issues involving race relations and Caitlin Clark and the other players, but even on this one, why not make sure that with millions of people, new viewers, new fans watching, that you haven't upped the game on the referees, got wonderful refs that are out there and they just are not keeping up. And again, when your coaches are saying it and not afraid to say it, you know it's true.
TAPPER: Is anyone putting the WNBA commissioner on the spot about this? Because I should remind folks, the WNBA collective bargaining agreement negotiations on increasing salaries and improving travel and many other issues, those -- those negotiations are ongoing. BRENNAN: They are, and the CBA was opened back up because of all the interest now. And again, we can put it right on one person, Caitlin Clark and her arrival in a league that, of course, all these other players deserved the attention years ago and never got it.
As far as Cathy Engelbert, the commissioner, I have texted a couple of times with their spokespeople asking to talk about some of these issues, have never heard back. Not specifically about the refereeing, but about the way that that foul was called, that Marina Mabrey, who just blindsides Caitlin Clark, wasn't kicked out of the game immediately. How on earth is that possible? These are the questions I've been trying to ask.
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No one's even gotten back to my text messages. I think that, again, Cathy Engelbert, it would be wise if she came out and addressed some of these issues. And I certainly hope she does.
TAPPER: All right, Christine Brennan, thank you so much. We'll have you back in a few days to talk about your great new book.
In our National Lead celebrations around the U.S. today, honoring Juneteenth, which commemorates the end of slavery, specifically the arrival of Union troops in Galveston, Texas on June 19th, 1865, bringing the news to the slaves that they had been freed more than two years earlier by President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. Today in Galveston, former President Joe Biden is scheduled to attend the Juneteenth Emancipation March. Biden signed the bill making this a federal holiday back in 2021. Milwaukee, Wisconsin, is home to the nation's longest-running Juneteenth celebration, having held its first parade in 1971.
Coming up, what is it like inside Iran right now? An Iranian-born activist and actress joins us.
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