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The Lead with Jake Tapper

At Least 119 Dead, Estimated 160 Missing In Catastrophic TX Flooding; Sen. Thom Tillis (R-NC), Is Interviewed About Voting Against Trump's Bill And Announcing He Won't Run For Re-Election; Sources: Hegseth Did Not Inform White House Authorizing Pause On Weapons Shipments To Ukraine; Musk's A.I. Chatbot "Grok" Posts Blatant Anti- Semitism. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired July 09, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: I want to say thank you also to my panel. Sorry we don't have more time to chat today because we do have to get to Jake Tapper. But don't forget, if you miss any of this show, today's show, you can always catch up listening to our podcast. Just scan the QR code. It's on your screen right there. Follow along wherever you get your podcast. You can also follow us on X and Instagram, at TheArenaCNN.

But Jake Tapper is standing by. And Jake, you're going to have much more of your exclusive interview, one-on-one with Senator Thom Tillis.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes, it's fascinating. He almost never does T.V. interviews, not on a national basis. So he had a lot to say. Thanks so much, Kasie. We'll see you back in The Arena tomorrow.

HUNT: Thanks, Jake. See you tomorrow.

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, a Lead exclusive, my one-on-one today with Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina in his very first national interview since announcing he would not run for re-election. You will recall it was Tillis who in stunning fashion went onto the Senate floor and eviscerated President Trump's One Big Beautiful Bill Act, saying that the cuts to Medicaid in the Senate version of the bill put current recipients of Medicaid, those who desperately need Medicaid, at risk.

He also said that he believes Trump will be seen as breaking a promise to not touch Medicaid. In just moments, we're going to bring you that interview. You can hear why Tillis calls this now law inherently unfair for American workers, why he thinks President Trump is getting bad information from his aides.

But first, our National Lead today, the devastating floods in Texas. The death toll standing now at 119. That is up from yesterday. That includes at least 36 children, 36 children in Kerr County, Texas, according to officials. An estimated 160 people are still missing. The tragic reality, Kerr County police say no one has been found alive since Friday. As questions swirl about what could have been done to minimize the loss of life.

President Trump's nominee to lead NOAA or the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which forecasts weather and climate, addressed the warning system issues in his confirmation hearing today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL JACOBS, NOMINEE FOR NOAA ADMINISTRATOR: Because we need the data to understand what went right, what went wrong, whether people got the warnings, if they did or didn't, and if they did, that they not understand them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Meanwhile, survivors are still reeling from the trauma. A woman who owns a restaurant, an RV park in Kerrville described trying to rescue people from rising waters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORENA GUILLEN, OWNS RESTAURANT, RV PARK IN KERRVILLE, TX: And the screams. The screams is what haunts me every time I close my eyes, I hear people screaming. You see some light. You can see the windows of the campers with people banging against the windows.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Families and friends also remembering their loved ones. Those lost include incoming high school sophomore, Braxton Jarman. His school band posted a photo, called him a cherished member of the community. The principal says Jarman's sister and stepmother are still missing.

Flooding northwest of Austin killed Army veteran Bill Venus. His son tells CNN his dad was a great man, adding, quote, I can't hold a candle to his accomplishments. Some of the many missing include this entire family. Mom, Natalia Venzor, dad, Leonardo Romero, and their one-year-old son Carlos. Natalia's mom describes her grandson Carlos as a sweet little boy.

CNN's Isabel Rosales is in Central Texas for us where there is a frustrating struggle to get answers nearly one week after the devastating floods began.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHERIFF LARRY LEITHA, KERR COUNTY: Sometimes evacuations is not the safest. Sometimes it's better to shelter in place. The Hill Country is not a one-size-fits-all all place.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Local officials defending their team's actions today in flood-ravaged Texas before facing heated questions from reporters and promising that answers are coming.

LEITHA: We're in the process of trying to put a timeline, you know, that's going to take a little bit of time.

ROSALES (voiceover): CNN affiliate KSAT now reporting a firefighter in nearby Ingram, Texas, requested the Kerr County Sheriff's office issue a code red. Nearly six hours passed until that code was issued. The sheriff asked today about that lapse in time.

LEITHA: I believe those questions need to be answered to the family of the missed loved ones, to the public, you know, to the people that put me in this office. We're not running. We're not going to hide.

ROSALES (voiceover): Search and rescue teams are in day six of this exhaustive search, focusing now on combing through piles of debris looking for victims.

KOURTNEY RAND, VOLUNTEER: We're getting down in places that normally people can't get to by foot, more harder terrain.

ROSALES (voiceover): Dozens of volunteers have joined state and local agencies coming out on foot, boat, ATVs, horses, and even mules who can help carry heavy equipment. This volunteer talked to CNN about his reaction to seeing the damage when arriving to help.

DUSTIN BERTARO, MISSION MULES: Water damage, how high the water got on trees. The debris piles around like bridges and, you know, parts of homes and stuff like fridges or water heaters.

MICHAEL TOBERER, PRESIDENT OF MISSION MULES: That amount of people getting taken like that just tells me that just nobody was ready for it.

ROSALES (voiceover): Yet officials and the governor insist they were ready for it and nobody's to blame. Governor Greg Abbott comparing it to a football game when asked about it.

[17:05:07]

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): Every football team makes mistakes. The losing teams are the ones that try to point out who's to blame.

ROSALES (voiceover): But some lawmakers disagree with that characterization.

REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX): This is not a game. People's lives are at stake and the losers are the ones that don't learn from the mistakes, that don't hold people accountable. In this case, I think there are accountable issues at every level of government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROSALES (on camera): And Jake, as volunteers are still hard at work and first responders going all over the Guadalupe River to try to find survivors if they still can, although they haven't found one in Kerr County since Friday, were victims. We're also seeing a massive cleanup effort. You're looking right now at an RV resort right on the Guadalupe River. And my, look at that, right in there, you see that overturned trailer? That belongs to the resort's owner. His name is Drew (ph). I spoke with him.

He said he woke up Friday at 6:00 a.m. not to the sounds of his phone going off warning him about the flood emergency, but to the massive knocking, the urgent knocking from his park manager telling him they had to go. So he went door to door, 12 campers in total, warning these families from out of town to get out to evacuate.

He very well could have saved those families lives. Right now we're seeing strangers really. He's saying he doesn't know these people from the community perhaps beyond coming out here with heavy machinery helping to move all of this dangerous debris out of the way to help potentially start to the next chapter. But of course, all eyes on over 170 people still missing. Where are they? That's a big question.

TAPPER: Isabel, is it your impression that the people who are trying to clean up after this and the people that are -- that are still searching for the more than 100 people missing, that they are getting all the help they need from the government of Texas, from the federal government? Is there more -- more aid that needs to come their way?

ROSALES: From the people that I have spoken with, Jake, they have been pleased by the response efforts. They think it's -- it's -- it's organized. They've seen a lot of first responders out here, help at the local, state, and national level. But it's not easy.

This is a grueling process under the hot Texas sun. And the findings around the area are also heartbreaking. Not just remains, but also family pictures, children's dance recitals, baby pictures, wedding pictures. They just want to find these people that are missing and get answers to their loved ones. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Isabel Rosales in Center Point, Texas, thank you so much for the journalism you're doing there. It's so important.

With critical infrastructure and roads washed out, search teams are trying to get creative. They need to get creative to reach vulnerable communities in this disaster. Mission Mules is a Christian nonprofit that uses mules to access victims and deliver aid in places that they can't get to it otherwise.

Founder and president of Mission Mules, Mike Toberer joins us now. Mike, your group helped after Hurricane Helene in North Carolina. How does this disaster compare to what you saw in western North Carolina after that horrible storm?

TOBERER: Western North Carolina, it's the same amount of force came through both places, but western North Carolina was just bigger -- at bigger area. Most of this is concentrated here in Texas along the river. But as far as the amount -- the amount of force that came through, it's -- it was pretty comparable.

TAPPER: A couple of Mission Mule packers spoke to CNN earlier today. They said they were struck by the sheer amount of debris. Tell us about the necessity of you using these mules to help navigate around the debris in -- in a better way than a smaller vehicle such as an ATV can do. TOBERER: Yes, yes. The way that works is with all that debris, as much as there is here, you have more crews that have to clean that up. So with what we got, the mules can step over things, and they can hop over things three and four foot tall. And side by sides and -- and SUV or the -- the four wheelers, they -- they can go a lot of places, but they have to remove that stuff out of the way. So if we have a tree in front of us that's off the ground, we cut the log, it hits the ground and we can jump over that where an ATV would have to move that to the side.

But once we get clear, we clear -- they come back and move stuff out of there. Once they got that, they can move a lot faster than we can. But we are initially let the first strike on it. We make our way to wherever our target is, if it's a house or if it's just a crew. And then we get them what they need. And what we've been doing here in Texas is supporting the ground crews, the search teams. That's -- that's the biggest thing going on.

[17:10:05]

So like yesterday, we packed all their chainsaws, hand tools for digging their winches, all that for recovery. And then today that stuff's been all out there. The crews are out there. But so today what we're doing is we're just making sure they have all their hydration packs because it's so hot here that the -- when they take a case of water out in two hours, it's too hot to drain. So we're not --

TAPPER: It's just so remarkable. Yes.

TOBERER: Yes. It's -- it's just crazy hot. And -- and then, you know, these guys, most of these -- these ground teams are either law -- previous law enforcement, fire department, a lot of vets, a lot of special forces guys do this and it's like right now we just -- they -- they got some hits and a bunch of teams went out and it's 98 degrees here and the humanities just -- but they won't stop. They are relentless in what they do.

And -- and you talk to any of those guys on those ground teams, and they'll tell you they're not going home until they find everybody.

TAPPER: And -- and Mike, we only have a little time left. We only have a little time left.

TOBERER: Yes.

TAPPER: But -- but tell me about the mules right next to you, and -- and where they've been today, and their names.

TOBERER: These mules have been all the way out to Monkey Island. We -- we ran about three miles both directions from Center Point here where we're stationed out of. And they basically with, they run supplies for the teams that are out there working to keep them hydrated and keep their tools. If they break tools or they need new saws or whatever, they radio us and then we take out what they need. That's -- that's what we've been doing today.

TAPPER: Well, God bless you Mike, and God bless us --

TOBERER: That will continue until it gets over.

TAPPER: Yes. God bless you and God bless the mules.

TOBERER: Yes, sir.

TAPPER: For those who want to contribute, it's go to missionmules.org and you can make a contribution for this important work.

TOBERER: Yes, yes, sir.

TAPPER: Mike Toberer, thank you so much. Good to have you on.

TOBERER: Yes, sir.

TAPPER: Appreciate it.

It's not just Texas, of course. Overnight in New Mexico, record- breaking floodwaters killed three people, including two children. In the southwestern part of that state, video capturing water washing away an entire home. Emergency crews rescued at least 85 people, including people trapped in homes and cars.

On the east coast tonight, more than 25 million people are currently under a worsening flood risk from North Carolina to parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Meteorologists say the D.C. to Philadelphia corridor will be especially susceptible to flooding.

We're going to go back live to Central Texas. But first, I want to bring you my exclusive interview with Republican Senator Thom Tillis from North Carolina. Revealing a blunt conversation with President Trump leading up to his announcement not to run for reelection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I told the President and another text, I said, now it's time to start looking for my replacement because I don't deal with that kind of bullshit.

TAPPER: And what did he say to that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: President Trump's answer and so much more coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, a CNN exclusive. Today, I sat down with Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina. He has been the talk of the town here in Washington for weeks now. He bucked his own party, the GOP, by voting against President Trump's mega bill, taking to the floor of the Senate to eviscerate the bill's Medicaid cuts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TILLIS: What do I tell 663,000 people in two years or three years when President Trump breaks his promise by pushing them off of Medicaid because the funding's not there anymore?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This opposition and this speech elicited the wrath of President Trump, who took to social media to trash Senator Tillis publicly. Tillis then stunned the political world by announcing he was not going to run for a third term next year.

Now, Tillis rarely does national T.V. interviews, but today he spoke frankly with us about a wide range of topics, starting with why, on a very personal level, he felt so strongly about the Medicaid cuts and also what went down in his private conversations with President Trump. Here is part one of our interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: When you announced that you were not going to be running for reelection. Your statement said in part that some -- too many legislators on Capitol Hill don't understand the consequences of policies that they enact could have on that young adult living in a trailer park, struggling to make ends meet.

TILLIS: Yes.

TAPPER: You were that young adult at that one point.

TILLIS: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: I don't know how many people here know that about you, that you come from humble circumstances, but how important was that to your decision to vote against?

TILLIS: Yes, it's -- it's because really understand. Well, first off, you know, I was a partner at Pricewaterhouse. I've been trained in implementation. My entire career was working with big companies, taking complex things and operationalizing them.

So when we looked at this Medicaid, the -- that the Senate mark, the House mark was fine. It was just clear to me it was not thought out. And I really did think about it. Like the tax policy, the same thing. In fact, I'm going -- my mother's in Nashville. I'll be headed back this weekend. I'm going to stop by that trailer park. It's still on Richards Road in Antioch. And I lived on Waikiki Boulevard when I lived with my family there. It had previously been called Hawaiian Village.

It was Countryside Village. And then I had a trailer when I moved out of home. I -- I left the trailer parked for about a year and then I moved into one on Sugarcane Lane. But I thought about going back in there and asking them about the consequences of this policy. I'll give you a good example to give you an idea of how that does shape my -- my understanding or my -- my view of policy, the no tax on tips. So when I was living in that trailer on Waikiki Boulevard with my family, and I was still going to high school, I became a waiter at a restaurant that was kind of like a Denny's, a Highway restaurant. And about -- and I made good money because as a male waiting tables back in the '76.

TAPPER: And this is before there were taxes on tips, right?

TILLIS: Yes, right.

TAPPER: They -- they were enacted in '82 by Bob Dole.

TILLIS: Right. So, you know, I was -- and -- and it was all cash tips. Anyway, I'm a 16-year-old kid. You really think I'm going to declare this for my taxes anyway? I mean, gosh, let's be real.

[17:20:02]

So but three years later, I'm not on Waikiki Boulevard. I'm now on Sugarcane Lane in that same trailer park, and I'm a warehouse worker. This is just after I graduated high school. I was supposed to go off to the Air Force, had a car accident, found myself without any college prospects for a while after thinking I was going to go to OCS training in the Air Force. But now I'm a warehouse worker.

Now, over the span of three years, living in that same trailer park, Thom Tillis the waiter gets a tax brace, but Thom Tillis the warehouse worker doesn't. So it's just inherently unfair. If you really are trying to have an impact on them, then why don't you have a policy that's instructed by all of the circumstances in that trailer park?

And similarly, I'm sure that there are a lot of people that are Medicaid eligible in that trailer park today. The one footnote is, you know, Jelly Roll, the country music singer --

TAPPER: Yes.

TILLIS: -- he grew up in that trailer park, too, about 20 -- 20 years removed. I found that out when I asked him questions in a hearing up here. But, yes, I do look at where I came from. And I try to always think in terms of how does it affect people that are on that bubble, too.

TAPPER: And when you had your conversation -- with conversations with President Trump on text and on the phone, you were telling him that you thought his advisers were not giving him the full truth about what the Senate bill would do.

TILLIS: Absolutely. And the -- the real -- I've told the President a number of times that I -- I very seldom believe I've ever disagreed with him, but I have disagreed with bad advice that some of -- some of his advisors are giving him, whether it's on a nominee or whether it's on policy.

I told the President that the House mark was great. The House mark dealt with work requirements, saved $800 billion. There's only a $200 billion delta between the Senate mark, which was largely requested by staff in the White House. It wasn't the brainchild of any one member that I can find here. But it does so much damage. It just wasn't thought through.

And hopefully we can convince them that -- that we have to fix it and that we can either fix it with a bipartisan bill coming up or the ACA extensions or some way we need to fix it. Otherwise, I told the President I really do believe it could be his Obamacare.

TAPPER: Because of the promise that he made that was not true. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

TILLIS: Yes. And now it's like, if you like Medicaid and you're eligible, you can keep it. That's fundamentally untrue because the funding mechanisms are probably going to take people who are eligible for it off of it over time, or it's going to create an enormous unfunded mandate on the states in a time frame that they can't absorb.

In North Carolina, the estimate is nearly $26 billion over 10 years. Now people say, well, we've delayed it for a year. I said, the numbers are still the same. It's a 10-year hit.

TAPPER: Right.

TILLIS: But the -- and -- and then pretending like it won't have political consequences.

TAPPER: Do you think the people in the --in that trailer park, do you think that they understand what's in that bill and how it could impact them?

TILLIS: No, not at all. They -- they don't, but they will. They'll be targeted and they should be. I mean, if I were just to --

TAPPER: Targeted politically, you mean?

TILLIS: Yes. I mean, they -- they will find a way. In today's world, you can get -- you can find those -- those folks. And if you're a competent Democrat, you're going to figure out a way to communicate to them how that affects their lives. And it -- it almost certainly will if it's at trailer park or the one that I spent a little bit of time in Jacksonville, Florida or challenged communities across the country. That -- that was the point.

The -- the House bill I had no problem with, and I actually had sympathy with some of our dead hawks, of which I am one to say, I think we should cut more. I think we should find $200 billion more in savings for $1 trillion, just not in this way, because it's not sustainable and it's politically, I -- I think it's politically just devastating.

TAPPER: When you told that to the President, what did he say?

TILLIS: I think he probably heard it, maybe resonated with it. I was told by more than one person that he preferred the House bill more. But there's no question the Democrats are going to say that he broke his promise and that Medicaid recipients are going to be at risk. But he's got people that are giving him bad advice that -- that are around him every day.

And I continue to say, look, you've got people here. I want -- I have a vested interest in making sure that President Trump's the most successful Republican president in the history of this country. I was a Republican long before President Trump was, and I'll be a Republican for the rest of my life.

I built -- I built a majority in North Carolina. I want to see that -- that successful streak and all the benefits that have occurred in North Carolina occur and continue. And so you have to be able to tell truth to power. That's our job.

TAPPER: Yes.

TILLIS: And that's exactly what I attempted to do last week. And that's what I'll continue to do. And I'll continue to work with the President if he chooses to. I'm a transaction guy. Completely believe they missed the mark on this one. His advisors got it wrong. Off to the next transaction. Let's fix this or work on something else. There are plenty of things where we agree.

[17:25:02]

TAPPER: "The Wall Street Journal" reported that when he made his final pitch to you said, I can't effing do that.

TILLIS: No, it sounds like me, but I don't remember the conversation at that level of granularity. But I -- I did -- I made it very clear to the -- the President and I have never had a pitched discussion. Every time, and I've probably done it more than many, every time I'm very frank with him, but he has never been untoward, never raised his voice. Never --

TAPPER: He just goes on social media and does it.

TILLIS: Yes. Well, that's the first time he ever did. And so after he did that, after I, you know, I told the President that he's clearly got the votes, that I will try and work to get something done in the House. He didn't need my vote, and that I would be respectful and quiet and try to do my work on the House side. And then I got that -- that text that I texted him, or I saw the -- I never read it, but I saw like the first sentence.

I told the President in another text I said, now it's time to start looking for my replacement, because I don't deal with that kind of bullshit.

TAPPER: And what did he say to that?

TILLIS: He texted back, I am. And I think subsequent to that, he started taking interviews. He needs to, because it's going to be a tough race in North Carolina. We got to get a good candidate, and I'm committed to helping the President get that candidate elected. If it's not, well, let's say a handful of people that will never make it in a general election in North Carolina.

TAPPER: Yes, well, you've talked about the Lieutenant Governor, the former Lieutenant Governor, Mark Robinson, who has a lot of baggage --

TILLIS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- a lot of weird stuff.

TILLIS: He's still got mini soldier out there.

TAPPER: Mini Soldier, his -- his porn --

TILLIS: Come on. Yes.

TAPPER: -- Avatar name or whatever, allegedly. President Trump endorsed him last time, loved him. He's very pro Trump. What happens if Trump gets behind him?

TILLIS: I think it'd be devastating. And if you noticed into before the revelations of mini soldier and everything came out. Mark Robinson was not on the stage any longer. So I think the President probably got the right intel that it was not a good idea to call him Martin Luther King times two. He is a disgrace to Martin Luther King's legacy. And there's no way, if he became the nominee in North Carolina, I could possibly support him. Of course, I wouldn't support the Democrat nominee. I would just have to take a pass.

TAPPER: What if it were Lara Trump that's talking for when he --

TILLIS: They're all -- I mean, they've all got to decide. You know, the -- our -- our state is very difficult for -- for Republicans to win. In both cases, I've won by fewer than two points. So they need to be really smart about the name on the ballot and the profile on the ballot to have an opportunity to win. It -- it will be -- it would have been a very difficult race for me.

You know, Jake, you've been following elections a lot longer than I have. On Election Day, I've never been closer than two points behind my opponent, and we pulled it out in both cases. But this is going to be a tough race for someone. They need a good, solid, business, right of center conservative to match up against whoever it is. And now it looks like it may be Governor Cooper.

TAPPER: Governor Cooper, who's pretty popular. Two-term governor, managed to have a decent profile in North Carolina and leave the state pretty popular.

TILLIS: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Coming up, if Senator Tillis is such a straight shooter, willing to speak truth to power, willing to work across the aisle, why leave office? His response to that argument is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:32:29]

TAPPER: We're back with more of our exclusive interview with Republican Senator Thom Tillis of the great state of North Carolina. What does the senator make of the argument that he should stay in the Senate considering he's willing to stand up for the legislative branch and work across the aisle? Here's part two of our interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: You were talking about the difficulties of being a Republican in this era. A columnist in the Carolina Journal wrote about you. Tillis has been one of the few elected officials on Capitol Hill in recent years who has demonstrated a willingness to stand up for the legislative branch. The story surrounding his departure from Congress is unlikely to encourage others to step into that role. Do you agree with that?

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Yes, I agree. I mean, a good example last week, and let's, before we start, I have to say the Democrats have a far worse rap sheet than Republicans when it comes to defending this institution. I only have to point to nuking the filibuster and thank God that we had Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema there to save the chamber.

TAPPER: No longer, no longer here.

TILLIS: No, and these folks now are using as a litmus test for primaries, would you nuke the filibuster? But now Republicans are starting to take that bait. I am here to defend the Article 1 branch and to collaborate with the Article 2 branch, more so when there's a Republican in there, maybe a little less so when there's a Democrat, but still I've managed to do bipartisan work when Biden was in office.

But at the end of the day, I'm an institutionalist and it's remarkable to me how I hear all these self-avowed institutionalists rationalize why they wouldn't vote for the amendment last week for John Kennedy to simply say, if we're going to give the president $1 billion a year to spend on defense production, shouldn't there actually be a consultation with Congress before it's spent?

And we had dozens of our members vote against it because the President rightfully wanted it. See, I don't mind the tug and pull. I think the President would be wrong if he wasn't trying to make his branch as powerful as possible. By the same token, it's our job to maintain the historic intent of the Article 1 branch.

TAPPER: Yes.

TILLIS: And I'm willing to be dogmatic about that because I really believe that it's what has made this country so special.

TAPPER: Do you think that the -- the lesson for the Republican Party right now is fall in line behind President Trump or get out of Congress?

TILLIS: No. No, look, I don't -- I don't want -- I made a personal decision that it wasn't an in-the-moment decision. I had been --

[17:35:06]

TAPPER: You'd made the decision before all this happened with the bill?

TILLIS: Yes, I had -- I had been -- I started a process of what I described to many of my donors and supporters of confirmatory due diligence back in January and February when I said, I've got to -- I've got to convince myself that this transaction of being involved in the most expensive race in U.S. history again, that it's worth doing and that there is a path to winning.

And I felt like I needed to determine whether or not I could raise the money that was necessary for my campaign. I needed to determine if we were going to have a going concern in terms of governing over a reasonable period of time so that I could then determine if the environment of the election, if those two things were in place, knowing that it was likely going to be a negative environment because of the historic trend of the party in power in the White House having headwinds, then I was going to make a decision probably more in the September timeframe.

But it just seemed like in the moment, I -- I don't feel like what we passed out last week had any semblance of good governance. It was an artificial deadline created by some staffer in the White House who probably wanted the signature to happen while the rockets, red glare were bursting in air, bomb, you know, that -- that vision on July 4th. There was nothing in that deadline that had anything to do with a Senate priority.

I have said, look, we could have probably taken 10 days and fixed this bill and -- and had the President have a highly successful bill. But you got staff over there that are so obsessed with making the date that they don't care about the outcome. They just care about checking the box. And that's what I've continued to tell the President. He needs to be wary of.

TAPPER: I'm sure that your supporters and your donors and your constituents, some of them said, this is exactly why you need to run for reelection because you are willing to stand up for the legislative branch.

TILLIS: Yes.

TAPPER: And even though you are very conservative, you are willing to work in a bipartisan way to get stuff done.

TILLIS: Yes.

TAPPER: How do you -- what do you say to that?

TILLIS: I felt like in the moment that I wanted to take off the table any question whatsoever about whether or not my reelection prospects had anything to do with how I make decisions here. I've been trying to tell people that for the last 10 years. Look, I got a wonderful life and a wonderful family and lots of professional options before I started this job.

And I'm going to have them after I started this job. But I want to make it very clear if you want to try and flex on me and -- and make it look like my reelection prospects are at risk, I want to make it clear that that's not anything I care about. I care about good policy and I care about the future of this country.

And I thought taking that off the table for the next year and a half may put me in a better position to help govern and help encourage other members to stand up for our branch and for good policy and absolutely support President Trump.

TAPPER: But that flexing --

TILLIS: But on our terms.

TAPPER: That flexing was not coming from Roy Cooper and Josh Stein. That flexing was coming --

TILLIS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- from Trump and the MAGA forces who were --

TILLIS: More than MAGA forces. Again, I -- I don't have a problem with President Trump.

TAPPER: Right.

TILLIS: I got to have -- I got a problem with some of the people I consider to be amateurs advising him.

TAPPER: What do you make when you go on --

TILLIS: And so I want to make it very clear to them guys --

TAPPER: Yes.

TILLIS: -- when you act like the President when -- when he's out of the room, you don't impress me. And they'll hear more of that in the coming months.

TAPPER: Who -- who are you talking about specifically? Stephen Miller or?

TILLIS: We'll get to that.

TAPPER: The -- what -- what is it like -- I don't know how much you go on social media. Oh, look, you got your grandkids on your socks.

TILLIS: Yes, that's all three of them right there.

TAPPER: We'll get a close-up of that later. What -- what do you make of -- I don't know how often you go on social media and for your own mental sanity.

TILLIS: Never. TAPPER: I hope it's never. But when people call you a rhino, a Republican in name only, even though you are obviously very conservative, though willing to work with Democrats and also willing to stand up for the legislative branch, what do you make of that criticism?

TILLIS: I tell them, I agree I'm a rhino. I've just got a different take on it. I'm a Republican in need of outcomes. And the thing that most of these so-called true conservatives have in common, whether they're elected or party leaders, they've never legislated. They haven't scratched the surface of what I've been responsible for, for real meaningful Second Amendment bills, for property rights reform, for pro-life movements.

So they can spare me the amateurish view of how this world works because they don't have a body of work to point to. I do. And so if they want to call me a rhino, then go ask themselves, what advances did we make on so many conservative issues when I was Speaker? And what have we done here on spending or on conservative legislation that's hit the President's desk that is bipartisan, but it's fundamentally sound conservative legislation?

I -- I don't apologize for my body of work. I've run on it in multiple primaries and I've won every one of them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:40:01]

TAPPER: We still have a lot more for you from Senator Tillis. He wanted to set the record straight on his vote to confirm former "Fox and Friends" weekend co-host Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. He also has a strong opinion about Hegseth now. Plus, what President Trump said today about his defense secretary and what sources are telling CNN about the order to pause weapons shipments to Ukraine, an order Trump did not make. We've got to squeeze in a break here, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So we're sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine, and I've approved that.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: So who ordered the pause last week?

TRUMP: I don't know. Why don't you tell me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Well, in our World Lead, sources tell CNN that it was Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth who authorized that pause on weapons shipments to Ukraine, apparently without informing the White House or getting authorization from President Trump. President Trump today continued to deflect questions, even as his White House is scrambling to figure out what happened and why. CNN's Kristen Holmes is at the White House. Kristen, what are you learning? This is very odd.

[17:45:13]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, and the White House doesn't want to talk about it anymore. I mean, originally, this story was confirmed to me by a White House official, this pause on munitions headed to Ukraine. And they said that it was Secretary of Defense Hegseth who had signed off on a months-long review. But their argument at the time was that this was about a number of various countries.

It was not just about Ukraine. It was about where our spending, us being the United States, was going in terms of foreign allies and where our weaponry was going. Since then, they have argued that instead the story is moot because the pause never went into effect, saying essentially that it couldn't have gone into effect because President Trump didn't sign off on it.

And this is something that President Trump seemed to be trying to reiterate today when he was in that meeting. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does it say that such a big decision could be made inside your government without you knowing?

TRUMP: I would know. If a decision was made, I will know. I'll be the first to know. In fact, most likely, I'd give the order. But I haven't done that yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: So this obviously goes to this idea that something this big couldn't have been done without President Trump's approval. But again, I was told originally that this was done, this pause had been signed off on by the Secretary of Defense because of this review that he had done. And I will note that at the time, we asked what other countries might be affected with this pause and got no answer.

TAPPER: Kristen, the President also hinted today about sending another Patriot air defense system to Ukraine. Tell us about that.

HOLMES: Yes, he was pretty noncommittal on it. But we do know one thing. We do know that they are trying to figure out how to send more munitions to Ukraine. We have heard President Trump really almost do a 180 when it comes to supporting Ukraine in the last several days, a lot of this having to do with his anger and frustration at Russian President Vladimir Putin.

So in this meeting, President Trump was asked about reports that he might be considering sending more of these Patriot missile systems. And he said that they're both rare and expensive and that Ukraine has asked for them. And it's something that they're currently looking into. And again, this would be part of likely a larger weapons package. As we've heard, President Trump say repeatedly over the last several days that Ukrainians need to be able to defend themselves against the Russians.

TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes at the White House for us. Thanks so much.

Coming up next, what Elon Musk said about his A.I. platform Grok becoming anti-Semitic and praising Hitler. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:48]

TAPPER: In our Tech Lead, the CEO of Elon Musk's social media platform, X, formerly known as Twitter, Linda Yaccarino, announced that she's stepping down after only two years on the job. What isn't clear is whether her sudden departure has any connection at all with the storm of criticism provoked by the company's A.I. chatbot called, Grok. As CNN's media correspondent, Hadas Gold, shows us, a few weeks after Musk said Grok would be retrained because he thought Grok was too woke, Grok started pushing Nazism and appeared to endorse the Holocaust as effective.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Elon Musk vowed to retrain his A.I. system known as Grok. After growing angry with its answers, he said we're, quote, parroting legacy media.

ELON MUSK, OWNER OF X: The overarching goal for the X platform is to be the best source of truth.

GOLD (voice-over): Those changes appear to have prompted Grok to use some anti-Semitic tropes. The chatbot going so far as praising Adolf Hitler, claiming Hitler could spot the pattern of anti-white hate and handle it decisively. Grok also claiming Jews, who are just 2 percent of the U.S. population, hold disproportionate roles in places like media, finance, and politics. Is that control or merit, it questioned.

When CNN asked Grok its sources for some of these posts, it said 4chan, a favorite forum for extremists known for its hateful conduct.

V.S. SUBRAHMANIAN, A.I. EXPERT: Had the right guardrails been in place and had adequate time been left for testing, I think these kinds of problems would have surfaced and would have been fixed. The fact that -- that -- that did not happen is alarming.

GOLD (voice-over): Musk himself has repeatedly said he favors total free speech, even if it's hateful.

MUSK: I think at the end of the day, free speech wins and in that if somebody says something that's false, especially on our platform, you can then reply to it with a correction.

GOLD (voice-over): But extremists were celebrating the changes. The founder of the far-right forum, Gab, posting, incredible things are happening. Musk himself has been accused in the past of trafficking in anti-Semitism, which he has denied.

MUSK: You know, obviously I'm against anti-Semitism. I'm against anti- really anything that is, you know, that promotes hate and conflict.

GOLD (voice-over): After the public outcry, xAI deleted some of Grok's posts, issuing the statement. We are aware of recent posts made by Grok and are actively working to remove the inappropriate ones. Since being made aware of the content, xAI has taken action to ban hate speech before Grok posts on X.

OREN SEGAL, ADL SVP OF COUNTER-EXTREMISM & INTELLIGENCE: This is something that has a massive reach globally and serves to normalize the types of hatred and anti-Semitism that we have been warning about because those hatreds, we know, animate people to terrible things on the ground.

GOLD (voice-over): Musk himself saying on X, Grok was too compliant to user prompts, too eager to please and be manipulated, essentially. That is being addressed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLD (on camera): xAI, Jake, posts some of its prompts and code publicly on GitHub. And what's interesting is on Tuesday evening, they deleted this line from their prompts for Grok, saying Grok should not shy away from making claims which are politically incorrect as long as they are well established. That has since been deleted.

And I should note that Grok has been quiet. It's been nearly 20 hours since the bot has replied publicly to anybody on X. It seems as though xAI may have frozen the bot for now. Jake?

[17:55:05]

TAPPER: Hadas Gold, thanks so much.

Coming up, more of my exclusive interview with Republican Senator Thom Tillis, who rarely does national interviews. Why, Tillis, is at odds with so many in his party today about what happened on January 6th, 2021, the Capitol attack, and his plan to take action on it. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, that desperate search for those missing in the Texas floods. What CNN learned today about officials coordinating the emergency response and who was not on a key call. We're going to go live to the disaster zone.

Plus, more of my exclusive interview with Republican Senator Thom Tillis in North Carolina, his very first since announcing he will not run for reelection. And after voting against President Trump's One Big Beautiful Bill Act because of the Medicaid cuts, this hour, does Senator Tillis regret voting to confirm some members of Trump's cabinet.

[18:00:09]

The Lead tonight --