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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Flash Floods In New Mexico Town Kills At Least Three People; Urgent Search Continues For At Least 160 Missing People In TX; MAGA Supporters Enraged Over DOJ's Epstein Memo; Wife Of AG Ken Paxton Files For Divorce Citing "Recent Discoveries"; Judge Blocks Trump's Order To End Birthright Citizenship Nationwide; Musk's A.I. Chatbot "Grok" Posts Blatant Anti-Semitism; Mud, Mess And Dealing With FEMA For Disaster Relief. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired July 10, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Wow. So here is what we are talking about. It is the first prototype of a bag that was made by the Paris fashion house Hermes in 1984. Here is the TL;DR version, the actress Jane Birkin was on a flight sitting next to the CEO of Hermes. She turned to her seatmate and basically told him that she needed a bag that could hold her stuff. It's every woman's problem. So they sketched out a design on an air sickness bag commonly known as a vomit bag. And then here we have this.

Jake Tapper, we're out of time. Sorry. This story is what everybody seems to be obsessed with today. So I could really talk about it for the entirety of your hour long show, but the floor is now yours.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thank you. It's actually a two-hour long show but --

HUNT: Two-hour long show.

TAPPER: -- I'm taking --

HUNT: Excuse me.

TAPPER: -- I'm wresting it back from you right now, Kasie.

HUNT: I don't know if I can do two hours on Hermes.

TAPPER: All right, thanks so much. We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

[17:01:07]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A stunning new ruling against President Trump's attempt to end birthright citizenship. The Lead starts right now. Federal judges on the district level can no longer issue nationwide injunctions per the U.S. Supreme Court, but they can certify class action lawsuits against the Trump administration. And that is exactly what a judge did today. How this classification today bans President Trump's executive order that sought to end birthright citizenship. Plus, MAGA world remains quite outraged. Public supporters of President Trump enraged over Trump's Justice Department and his administration writ large, seemingly trying to just close the case on convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein and those who were his clients.

Why would a -- would a president so otherwise perfectly attuned with the needs and desires of his political base suddenly be unwilling to listen to them on this issue? I wonder why.

But first, as we approach one week since the start of the Texas flood disaster, what journalists are discovering, including Camp Mystic's new cabins that put young campers in a dangerous flood zone. How did local authorities sign off on those plans? Did local authorities sleep through the warnings a week ago tonight?

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. And in our national lead, the urgent search for about 160 people missing after the Texas floods. The death toll now rising to at least 121 people. And the search continues for answers. A key question not yet fully answered is whether the warnings and safeguards against these floods were in any way remotely adequate.

At a news conference today, several local officials who had been at previous news conferences did not even show up. A special session of the Texas legislature later this month will meet to discuss flood warning systems, emergency communications, relief funding according to Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

Kerr County, where the majority of these tragic deaths occurred, has no emergency sirens. And experts say their number of river gauges to measure water levels should be double or even triple what they currently are. Kerr County is also home, of course, to Camp Mystic, where at least 27 people, mostly children, died when the Guadalupe River suddenly surged. And as "The New York Times" reports today, six years ago, Camp Mystic did pursue a $5 million expansion and that expansion included building new cabins that were built right in the designated flood risk area. New CNN reporting also says that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, ran into bureaucratic obstacles that slowed its disaster response.

For example, as central Texas towns were submerged in rising waters, FEMA officials realized they could not preposition search and rescue crews from a network of teams stationed across the country. Why? Well, in the past, FEMA had swiftly staged these teams. But FEMA officials for this disaster realized that under the brand new Department of Homeland Security rules, they needed Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's direct approval before they could do this. Multiple sources telling CNN that Secretary Noem did not authorize FEMA's deployment until Monday more than 72 hours after the flooding began,

Noem today pushed back on this reporting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Our Coast Guard, our Border Patrol, BORTAC teams were there immediately. Every single thing I was on they asked for, we were there. The governor and the emergency management director, Nim Kidd, are fantastic. And nobody there has said anything about that they didn't get everything that they wanted immediately or that they needed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:05:18]

TAPPER: Again, the four sources who provided this information to CNN's Gabe Cobe -- Co -- Gabe Cohen, those are FEMA officials. That's the sources.

Let's go to CNN's Isabel Rosales in Texas.

And Isabel, you spoke today with the drone team that is helping search for those still missing. What are you learning about how this works?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, still too many people are missing and there's so many resources being thrown to finding answers as to what happened to these people at the local, the state, and look at this, the federal level. You're looking at a feature FEMA task force right now, they're in the waters of the Guadalupe River right here. You have them searching underneath this debris and over there to the left, meticulously searching underneath there to make sure no one's trapped underneath. And to the left you can see a human remains dog looking around for any sense to give them guidance.

Now you mentioned a drone operator, they're checking down here from the ground and from the water, but also from the skies. I spent some time today with the owner of a drone company, his name is Jordy Marks. He's a volunteer also with the United Cajun Navy, a Navy veteran with experience in search and rescue. And he was the eyes in the sky equipped with high resolution cameras and thermal imaging. He told me, unfortunately, a thermal imaging portion of his drone, he doesn't think that will be so useful right now, so many days since the storm, it won't be much helpful.

Now here's what he's looking for as he is following around the Guadalupe River.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: So you're looking for shadows?

JORDY MARKS, OWNER, LA DRONE SERVICES: Shadows, just anything that stands out.

ROSALES: OK. And what do you do if you find something like that?

MARKS: If I find something like this, I'm going to call the EOC and call the people in command.

ROSALES: Why do you think there's still so many missing out there?

MARKS: Why I think is the current was so strong, I think they -- it took people and put them underneath, you know, debris. And the people are just trapped in the debris and while the water is receding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: Now this is the first time we have seen volunteers operating these drones up in the sky trying to help with search and rescue since Monday, Jake. That is when the city of Kerrville says a private drone collided with a rescue helicopter, damaging it and forcing it to be out of commission. Certainly not helpful when time is of the essence and there's such important work to be done here. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Isabel Rosales in Center Point, Texas, thanks so much.

Further west of Texas in Ruidoso, New Mexico, flash flooding there killed at least three people, including two children. Floodwaters hit the village of Ruidoso on Tuesday. Emergency crews made at least 65 swift water rescue. Surveillance footage from a business called the Ruidoso Trading Post captured a time lapse when monsoon rains were flooding the Rio Ruidoso. Items in the store began floating as the water filled most of the building.

This is actually the second time floods have devastated this business in just the last year. Let's bring in the owner of this trading post, Arnold Duke.

Arnold, thank you so much for joining us. I'm sorry about what's going on there. Were you able to evacuate before the flood took over your store? What kinds of items did you lose?

ARNOLD DUKE, OWNER, THE RUIDOSO TRADING POST: At the time I wasn't here. Three of my employees were here working in the building. And in a matter of about 35 seconds, the water rose from one inch to about seven and a half feet. If you look behind me, you can see the water line all the way up the wall.

We have five rooms in this place, and it's completely full of these kind of products, Native American, turquoise and silver, and it's just horrific. Last year we flood one inch we had in here. This year we had seven and a half feet. It's just unbelievable. It busted the walls of the building and everything just went down the river.

We're fortunate. We have two locations. This is our wholesale location where we sell to stores that resell and our mail order. Normally we send 100 to 200 packages every day all over the world. But right now, our mail order is hurt.

We're getting organized very quickly. We hope to be back in business in a week. But it's been devastating for everybody.

We're the lucky ones. All we lost was business and merchandise, there's other people here that lost their homes, their cars. It's tremendous devastation.

TAPPER: Yes.

DUKE: We still have missing people, lots of missing pets, and it's very difficult situation. But the people here are strong and resilient, and we're digging in. We're helping each other and just have to deal with it.

[17:10:02]

TAPPER: Arnold, how far away from the river is your store?

DUKE: Our store, this location is right next to the river, but we are 10ft higher than the river. But the water rose all the way up and seven and a half feet. We're lucky the employees were able to escape because it happens so, so fast. We do get alarms here, but the problem is we get many alarms and then nothing happens. So it kind of desensitizes everyone.

You don't know what's real and what's not real. So we just thought this was going to be another, like, little flood. We had no, no idea even conceivable that we could have a wave just come hit the town. We just weren't prepared.

TAPPER: So almost exactly a year ago, you say another flood devastated your business and all the insurance companies pulled out of the area. So you don't have insurance for this flood. Are you going to be able to rebuild?

DUKE: No, sir, I don't have one penny insurance. No, I don't. Yes, it's going to be a struggle, but we're strong and we're determined, and it's not going to be easy. But life isn't easy for anyone. So we're fortunate to be as lucky as we are.

We appreciate everything, everybody, and every day. And we'll be back. Just need a little time.

TAPPER: All right. Arnold Duke, owner of the Ruidoso Trading Post, thank you so much and God bless.

DUKE: Thanks, Jake. Appreciate your time.

TAPPER: Let's turn back to -- let's turn back to the flooding in Texas now. We're joined by Tony Dickey, who's the chaplain for United Cajun Navy. United Cajun Navy's a volunteer search team helping to look for people still missing.

And, Tony, you've been comforting families whose loved ones are still missing. I'm sure it's an incredibly emotional experience. Tell us what it's been like.

TONY DICKEY. CHAPLAIN, UNITED CAJUN NAVY: It's very, very hard emotionally. It does take its toll. The search and rescuers that are out trying to locate their loved ones is taking an emotional toll on them as well. I am actually with four of the families who still have loved ones missing. TAPPER: How many families, approximately, have you spoken to whose loved ones are still missing?

DICKEY: I'm actually with five families totally. I leave here and go to one of those families immediately in just about another 15 minutes.

TAPPER: Tell us about the teddy bear you're holding.

DICKEY: This is called a therapeutic weighted comfort cub. We use this, my comfort cub, we give it a name, is Hope. We, as chaplains, we bring hope to these people through our faith, through prayer. Hope, actually, whenever you take and hold the comfort cup here, it stimulates the neurons in the brain to create chemicals that help offset the depression, the grief. It helps with all that without them even knowing it.

And it's very therapeutic. We use them throughout the United States, even overseas in Israel. And this is something that when we give it to them, you can see their countenance, just automatically, they start relaxing. We also, unfortunately, we have to do a lot of crying, hugging therapy as well to all these families. That's so important for them.

It's tough on all of these first responders here.

TAPPER: Yes. Tell us what you're hearing from members of the Cajun Navy who are out there actively searching for victims of this horrific flood. Do they have the resources they need to help find and recover those still missing?

DICKEY: There are so many resources coming in through here. The United Cajun Navy family has come from all over the nation. We pulled in like six or seven excavators yesterday. We have hundreds and hundreds of the Cajun Navy family on site. We -- and that is one thing, as a chaplain, I go to these families and I let them know we're here.

We ain't going nowhere. We're here to find your loved one. And we want you to know, just as the mayor says, we need your prayers nationwide, that we can recover that loved one. They're here -- these families are living moment by moment. The families I'm dealing with, one of the families have already had four family members recovering.

They're waiting for that last one. The other families have not had any recovery at all.

TAPPER: Just heartbreaking, heartbreaking work. Tony Dickey with the Cajun Navy, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.

DICKEY: Yes, sir.

[17:15:00]

TAPPER: Here in Washington, D.C. some rare bipartisan action just in from Capitol Hill. Believe it or not, senators are stepping in a bipartisan way on the Jeffrey Epstein case. What both Republicans and Democrats just agreed to do after U.S. attorney General Pam Bondi's Justice Department announced this week that there is no evidence that Epstein kept a client list or was murdered in jail and that the case was seemingly closed. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In our politics lead, anger, mistrust, even calls of a cover up, and that's coming from some of President Trump's very most vociferous supporters, full MAGA. They say they're blindsided by the DOJ's memo saying that Jeffrey Epstein didn't have a, quote, "client list" after hearing promises such as this one from United States Attorney General Pam Bondi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: What you're going to see, hopefully tomorrow is a lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot -- a lot of information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So that was February. In the Oval Office this week, President Trump said essentially it's time to drop the subject, calling any questions a, quote, "waste of time." Take a listen to how that went over to hosts of the Flagrant podcast.

[17:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW SCHULZ, CO-HOST, FLAGRANT PODCAST: I think what is enraging people right now is it's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up. Something changed.

AKAASH SINGH, CO-HOST, FLAGRANT PODCAST: One of two things in my mind is impossible. One, you're covering it up, or two, nothing really happened, and you exploited the (BLEEP) of thousands of children to get your man elected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Wow. All right, let's talk about this.

Lauren, Republican strategist Lauren Tomlinson, I don't think this is going away. What do you think?

LAUREN TOMLINSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I don't think people are going to let it go. It was such an unforced error, I think, by the White House, because transparency is key for them. And they're releasing a lot of things and they're promising a lot of things. I mean, a few things could have happened. You know, Scott Walker was saying that maybe Pam Body hadn't actually looked at the things before she was promising it, that's a theory.

You know, some in the podcast world are theorizing that it was some sort of intelligence operation and it got caught up in some sort of unable to release because it would reveal sources. Who knows if that's true? But I really think that the White House, while they're trying to push past this, they do need to go ahead and address it out front and just kill it right now before it just becomes death of a thousand cuts.

TAPPER: So, just as a factual matter, what we have is all these people clamoring for all this information to be released. And look, I -- for years, release it all, I've been saying, release it all. About a month ago, Elon Musk and Donald Trump had their breakup. And Elon Musk said, by the way, the reason they haven't released the Epstein list is because Donald Trump's on it. And then three, four weeks later, the Justice Department says there's no there.

MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I mean, hasn't it been reported, though, that a lot of the people who are already on it's already out there with the diary and the flight log. So a lot of this stuff is already out there. I think that a lot of --

TAPPER: There's a lot that has not been released, though.

HAYS: And that could be totally true as well. I don't -- we'll probably never know. And because they're probably destroyed the documents at this point, but I do think that you can't run on something and then turn around and do the other thing in a normal world, but Trump's world is different. And so there -- I think it's going to be death by a thousand cuts. I just don't know what the ramifications are going to end up being.

TAPPER: We have with us today for the first time at this table, Isaac Arnsdorf, who's one of the trio that wrote this. (Inaudible) coming back here. "2024," new book by Josh Dawsey and Tyler Pager and Isaac. Welcome. Congratulations on the book. Fantastic book.

ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Thank you.

TAPPER: I want to get to the book in a second, but as somebody who spent a lot of time diving into Trump world, MAGA world for this fantastic book, "2024," Steve Bannon, a lot of people think of him as the intellectual beating heart of MAGA world, said in a podcast, release it all and redact it where the victims on -- in peril -- where the victims are in peril. But that's not what they're doing. What do you think is going on? And do you think MAGA is going to let Donald Trump, yada, yada, yada this away?

ARNSDORF: I found it very interesting when Trump was asked about this in the Oval, I think it was yesterday, and he said, haven't we all been talking about Jeffrey Epstein for years? It's like, yes, we have been and we're going to be, right. This is not going to go away. And I also -- always perk up every time someone like Bannon, you know, there's this idea that whatever Trump says goes in the MAGA movement and it's not. There are these very telling moments when Bannon, some few other people who have kind of independent MAGA cred --

TAPPER: Like Tucker Carlson.

ARNSDORF: -- will enforce some boundaries. You know --

TAPPER: Yes.

ARNSDORF: -- there are some real core MAGA commitments that Trump finds he cannot stray too far from without getting himself into trouble.

TAPPER: The Senate Appropriations Committee adopted a bipartisan measure today calling on the Attorney General, Pam Bondi to, quote, "retain, preserve and compile any records or evidence related to any investigation, prosecution or incarceration of Jeffrey Epstein and provide lawmakers with a report within 60 days." Your thoughts on that?

TOMLINSON: I don't -- this is why I don't think that this is going away.

TAPPER: Yes.

TOMLINSON: If they can get in front of it, they should. I mean, ultimately this speaks to, I think, Republicans and Democrats and this idea that you don't want to let people in power get away with whatever. And it feels that way, right? This -- if this is a cover up, it feels like a betrayal of that idea that you are in America and that this administration is going to keep people to account, regardless of their wealth, regardless of their status, regardless of their connection to power. And so that's why I think that the Senate, that is great that they did that.

But I do think that the White House should just get in front of the report and not have to report to Congress, they should just report directly to the American people.

TAPPER: Meanwhile in Texas, MAGA world is boosting Ken Paxton, the attorney general who's been running away from allegations of corruption and all sorts of things to run against the incumbent, Senator John Cornyn. But Paxton is now having some issues. His wife just posted some personal news on social media. She's a state Senator. "Today after 38 years of marriage, I filed for divorce on biblical grounds," she says.

She goes on to say, quote, "In light of recent discoveries," she's filed for divorce, she didn't say what that was.

He said, "After facing the pressures of countless political attacks and public scrutiny, Angela and I have decided to start a new chapter in our lives."

[17:25:00]

HAYS: I mean, great, if he wins the primary and a Democrat is able to go against him, it might be the moment where Democrats can turn Texas blue, what they've been talking about for years. I don't -- I mean, he is a very corrupt individual. He was on trial, I think. I mean, people in Texas have known how terrible he is. I mean, Biblical reasons is an affair. Like, it's very clear what's going on here. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. But for the Democratic Party, it's sit back and get your popcorn out, because he would be the candidate we would choose.

TAPPER: Let's turn down to this great book, "2024, How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America" by Isaac as well as Tyler Pager and Josh Dawsey. In one part of the book, you talk about how you interviewed Trump. You sort of spoke to Biden. You wrote about this in the "Times" the other day. You called him -- what exactly happened with the Biden phone call?

And what do you think that says about Joe Biden?

ARNSDORF: So to be clear, it was Josh who went down to Mar-a-Lago to meet Trump.

TAPPER: Oh, to talk about Trump. Yes, yes.

ARNSDORF: And obviously we wanted to talk to all the candidates, Trump agreed, Harris did not, and Biden staff did not. The reason that they gave Tyler, my co-author, was that it would -- it would conflict with the memoir that he's planning to write. But Tyler, because he's a great reporter, managed to get Biden's number and call him directly.

TAPPER: Yes.

ARNSDORF: And when he did, Biden seemed into the idea. But when his aides found out, they changed his phone number.

TAPPER: They changed his phone number. And do you think that there is something there in Trump's willingness to talk to Josh Dawsey, your co-author, and both the refusal of Harris and Biden to engage with three august legacy media folks such as yourself and your two co- authors at all into why Trump won in any way?

ARNSDORF: Well, I mean, you saw that during the campaign also when, you know, Trump was going on all kinds of shows. Anyone who would have him, not afraid of anything. And Harris went for weeks and weeks and weeks without showing her face in an interview, giving the Republicans time to establish this idea of what is she hiding from, you don't really know her. And that idea that you don't really know her, it stayed with voters.

TAPPER: Yes.

ARNSDORF: We kept hearing that. And it let the Republicans define her their way as exactly like Biden, which she then reinforced by not putting any distance between herself and Biden.

TAPPER: How much do you think Democrats in 2028 are going to be forced to contend with the whole Joe Biden thing, like his inability to get through a presidential debate and his weakness as a candidate and whatever they were covering up? How much do you think Kamala Harris and others are going to have to answer questions about that? ARNSDORF: Well, I mean, the -- any politicians who were around in 2024 who are on tape defending Biden are going to have to answer that. But you see, partially for that reason and for a lot of other reasons, just the frustration and the dissatisfaction with the Democratic establishment, this hunger for new faces, you know, people who don't bring that baggage.

TAPPER: Like in New York City. Mamdani, for example. Congratulations again, Isaac Arnsdorf. The book with Dawsey and Pager is "2024, How Trump Retook the White House and Democrats Lost America."

Thanks once again, everyone, for being here. Really appreciate it.

Next, despite a recent U.S. Supreme Court decision, how a federal judge in New Hampshire today managed to block President Trump's executive order attempting to end birthright citizenship.

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[17:32:20]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, President Trump's executive order ending birthright citizenship is now facing a new nationwide block by a federal judge. This time, the judge certified a class action lawsuit, which is a case filed on behalf of a class or group of people.

It's an option that the U.S. Supreme Court left on the table after recently curbing the power of lower district court judges from issuing nationwide injunctions. The White House called today's ruling, quote, an obvious and unlawful attempt to circumvent the Supreme Court's clear order against universal relief, unquote. Here to discuss CNN crime and justice correspond -- correspondent, Katelyn Polantz, and legal analyst, Carrie Cordero.

Thanks for both -- to both of you for being here. So, what is the judge's reasoning for blocking the executive order, and does he have the authority to do this?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, he does, because he's following the Supreme Court's direction here. The judge has a lot of reasons for blocking this, and I should also say, there have been many courts that have looked at the birthright citizenship executive order ending, giving that to babies born in the U.S. to immigrant parents, and they have all said, this just doesn't fly under the Constitution.

TAPPER: The block by Trump doesn't fly.

POLANTZ: The block by Trump, yes. So, in this case, a group of people, a specific group, that was the direction the Supreme Court gave. You have to have a specific -- specific group. They went to the judge in New Hampshire, and he wrote that he, the judge, has no difficulty concluding that the rapid adoption by executive order, without legislation and the attending national debate, of a new government policy of highly questionable constitutionality that would deny citizenship to many thousands of individuals previously granted citizenship under an indisputably long-standing policy constitutes irreparable harm.

It's a mouthful, but it packs in everything the judge is finding here, that there's no input by Congress, that the White House went very fast when it put this executive order in place, that there was little public debate, that it hurts a lot of people to end birthright citizenship.

TAPPER: Yes.

POLANTZ: And that there had been policies for a long time allowing for birthright citizenship under the U.S. Constitution. He says, it's highly questionable, it's probably not constitutional. And so I'm blocking it. I'm blocking it nationwide for babies born after February 20th of this year and any babies that would be born from this day forward. It's going to be paused for more appeals, but it's a defined class, and it's a very thorough finding.

TAPPER: Kerry, how strong is this lawsuit? Do you think, and can it survive the appeals process?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think, if courts, if the Supreme Court ever gets to the merits of the birthright issue, then they have a very, very good chance of winning on this, because as Katelyn was describing, I mean, in my judgment, I think in the judgment probably of most courts that are taking up the issue related to the birthright orders, that the birthright order is just simply unconstitutional and is not going to stand eventually.

[17:35:14]

The difficulty in why we're in sort of this constant back-and-forth between the district courts and the Supreme Court and different methods in which litigants are trying to solve this issue is that the birthright order is the vehicle through which the Trump administration was trying to deal then with nationwide injunctions.

And so you've got these two separate issues, really, and the Supreme Court decided the issue of the nationwide injunctions but never really solved the issue of the birthright citizenship order and then invited district courts to consider it through this class action option.

TAPPER: So ultimately, this is going to end up before the U.S. Supreme Court, and right, ultimately?

CORDERO: Yes, I think ultimately the issue of birthright citizenship and this order that the President has issued --

TAPPER: Right.

CORDERO: -- is going to end up before the court, and they just -- they have pushed it farther and farther beyond.

POLANTZ: But right now it's who can bring it.

TAPPER: Right.

POLANTZ: They've already defined who can bring it. They still might have to define where you can bring a suit like this, what kind of judges can do, how far they can do, what they can find here. There's a couple different levels. We could have this going on for quite some time before it gets to, as Carrie said, the merits here.

CORDERO: And that's a difficulty, yes, because they're not -- they're not actually getting to the substance of it. And what this district court is pointing out is that people really will be harmed. I mean, what is more fundamental, the judge says, than birthright?

TAPPER: Right. Well, then citizenship, whether or not you can stay in the United States. All right, fascinating stuff. And I guess we're going to be doing and having this conversation for several years.

CORDERO: For a while.

TAPPER: All right, thanks guys, appreciate it. Carrie Cordero, Katelyn Polantz, thanks to both of you.

Ahead, the unease for Elon Musk this weekend. His right-handed, X, the CEO, has stepped down. His A.I. chatbot is spewing Nazi content. Is this banned for business in today's America? My next guest follows the tech world for a living. Kara Swisher joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:41:07]

TAPPER: In our Tech Lead, the makers of Grok, G-R-O-K, the artificial intelligence chatbot on Elon Musk's xAI or on Twitter A.I., have seemingly frozen the app's X account so it stops spewing pure, unadulterated anti-Semitism. Today, the app's new upgraded paid version will still give you inappropriate posts, but apparently only when pushed or specifically prompted to do so. For instance, CNN asked Grok to give an edgy response to provocative questions, and Grok did exactly that.

But before the freeze, what happened to Grok? Why was it spewing such unfettered Nazi content? CNN has reached out to xAI. Let's talk now to Kara Swisher, host of "On with Kara Swisher." She covers the cross- section of tech and media. Kara, other A.I. apps seem to have higher guardrails to prevent them from becoming Nazis. What exactly happened here with Grok?

KARA SWISHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Well, do you remember Jessica Rabbit? I'm like this because I'm drawn that way. That's how they made it. That's how he's changed it. He thought it was too woke, if you recall, a couple of weeks ago, and so he didn't like the responses, and he changed and -- and messed with the algorithm, and that's what it returns. Everything is what you put into it, and there's an expression in tech which is garbage in, garbage out, and that's really what's happening here.

If you -- if you program in a certain way, it will respond in a certain way. A.I. is people, if you really think about it. It's data about people, and whatever you tune it to do, it will do.

TAPPER: Yes, and Musk hates legacy media. He hates institutional knowledge, and he apparently plugged it in so that Grok would consider Reddit to be a reliable source of information, and there's all sorts of just bigotry and nonsense there --

SWISHER: Who knows?

TAPPER: -- on -- on X. Go ahead.

SWISHER: It's not clear. Yes. It's not clear what the data is coming from and what he changed from the previous version --

TAPPER: Yes.

SWISHER: -- which didn't -- didn't suit him. You know, and now they're doing it again, but I think the whole point, it underscores that this is someone who doesn't care about the safety issues on -- on the platform, which he didn't really before, honestly, and the departure of Linda Yaccarino says he doesn't care about advertising. So he's building something else here that has to do with the data and -- and the information collected and using it for various things. Today, they just linked up Tesla with Grok.

And so you're starting to see sort of what's coming into view, which is he's trying to create an A.I. that does things for you but is not focused on Twitter anymore, really.

TAPPER: On xAI's website, it says, quote, Grok is your truth-seeking A.I. companion for unfiltered answers with advanced capabilities in reasoning, coding, and visual processing, unquote. Some people believe that whatever Grok or other A.I. chatbots tell them is perfectly true. Beyond xAI, are these tech companies showing any concern about the consequences of this?

SWISHER: Some of them are. Some of them are putting up some guardrails. A lot of it is a marketing message, we care. But if you've noticed what happened in social media over the past, you know, decade, you can see where we're going with this, is they would rather have very little control over these things and let them do whatever they do and -- and morph it any way they morph.

And so putting in guardrails, they'll start to say that's limiting free speech when actually it's just, you know, publishing correctly and not allowing hate speech to get in there. Now, in -- in -- in Twitter's case, there was a lot of complaints that it was, you know, Nazi-adjacent. And a lot of white supremacist stuff. And now they're just going -- it's not adjacent anymore.

TAPPER: Right.

SWISHER: Now he can tweak that out and pull those things out, those heinous things. And it wasn't just anti-Semitic. It was violence towards women, all kinds of things. And they can --they can take those things out, but it shouldn't be done on a case-by-case basis. It should be -- the A.I. should be tuned so that there are some safety issues and it doesn't let you, you know, search for how to assault a woman or build a bomb or things like that.

[17:45:13]

TAPPER: Yes, Grok was instructing people on how to do a violent rape of -- of one --

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: -- I think it was a progressive critic. You just talked about Linda Yaccarino who stepped down as CEO of X after only about two years on the job. Oliver Darcy put it this way on his -- his newsletter status. When she strode into X, I'm quoting here, she was widely regarded as one of the most respected advertising executives in the country, but after nearly two years of shilling for Musk and running attempts -- running cover for his attempts to strong-arm advertisers into cutting checks for X, her once-gilded reputation has been nothing short of decimated, unquote.

Now, I -- I'm not an expert on the advertising world. When I think of Linda Yaccarino, I think this is somebody who oversaw the Nazification of Twitter. Do you think that Oliver's right there?

SWISHER: No. I think it's going to be difficult, although it's the advertising mistake. They -- they tend to forgive a lot. She's a very talented advertising salesperson and was for NBC. I -- that's when I knew her, before she went. And I talked to her about going to Twitter when she did. I think, you know, we'll see. I mean she's -- we'll see what she does. We'll see who's interested in her, what she's interested in.

She's probably made some money at -- at X. It depends. Elon has a history of not paying people, so who knows what's going to happen there. But I think she'll probably try to reenter the space. And people are very forgiving in the advertising business. If she's good at creating marketing opportunities, they'll hire her. That would be my -- that would be my wild -- wild guess here.

TAPPER: So forget -- forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown, is what you're throwing at me?

SWISHER: Chinatown. Yes.

TAPPER: All right. Kara Swisher, thanks so much.

SWISHER: Yes.

TAPPER: Appreciate it.

SWISHER: Thanks.

TAPPER: The future of FEMA in the wake of disaster. How about this take from a survivor of Hurricane Helene in Western North Carolina?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ABBY NORTON, HOT SPRINGS, NORTH CAROLINA: FEMA doesn't need to be eliminated. It just, the processes need to be easier.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's John King went back to this region to hear folks there and what they have to say about dealing with disaster and the politics that come with it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:38]

TAPPER: And we're back with our Politics Lead. In questions about the future of FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Trump administration says that they would like to get rid of it altogether and let states take over disaster response. But the flood crisis in Texas, as well as the government response, harkens back to what people in western North Carolina experienced last fall.

Back then, Hurricane Helene caused catastrophic flooding, loss of life, and people had to deal with FEMA. Fast forward to today, and CNN's John King is just back from North Carolina for his All Over The Map series.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOREY HAMPTON, NORTH CAROLINA VOTER: You hear that sound? It's the sound of excitement.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Korey Hampton's office, her source of income and of joy. But seeing the French Broad River is much more complicated now. The floodwaters nine months ago changed everything.

HAMPTON: We pulled people out of second story windows in a river that just the day before had been calmer even than it is today.

KING (voice-over): Hampton and her husband, Mitch, run French Broad Adventures, but they also volunteer for the local raft rescue team. Days of exhausting rescues after the flooding, then weeks of worse.

HAMPTON: Doing recovery work, and what that means is --

KING: Looking for bodies.

HAMPTON: Yes. It -- it painted the river in a new light for me. I still see piles, and I wonder if there's somebody in it. I still smell smells and think I should go look at that pile. It's hard to kind of switch back to the like, oh everything's fun, no big deal.

KING (voice-over): Tiny Hot Springs flooded when debris turned this bridge into a dam. Most of downtown is still a mess. Hot Springs Mayor Abby Norton puts the build back at 40 percent.

NORTON: What I thought Washington would do, would be to immediately come in and -- and either fix everything or supply the funds for us to fix everything, but that's not how it works. KING (voice-over): Mayor Norton says she voted third party for president, just weeks after the flood.

KING: Is there a Biden difference or a Trump difference in what you have experienced?

NORTON: First of all, I'm not a politician. I never have been. But it has been better under the Trump administration than it was under Biden, my opinion.

KING: Is that because they're more receptive and responsive?

NORTON: Yes.

KING: Or is it because, you know, Biden was president when -- when it was hell or?

NORTON: Things are getting done faster. They're more -- they are more responsive. We're getting a lot more help.

KING (voice-over): But the mayor is quick to say things still take too long, like waiting for federal help to rebuild the town offices. Now, troubled when she hears the president talk of big FEMA changes.

NORTON: FEMA doesn't need to be eliminated. It just, the processes need to be easier, more user friendly. No, I don't think it needs to be eliminated at all.

KING: Or shifted to the states or?

NORTON: No.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Jake, it's just remarkable when you go to these small towns, Marshall, 800 people, Hot Springs, 500 people. These people are not waiting for help. They need a lot of help. They're frustrated they haven't gotten more help from FEMA, from other places. But they're not waiting for it. They're rebuilding their communities. And it's interesting to hear the mayor there. She says the Trump response has been better than the Biden response in terms of getting somebody on the phone and getting stuff done. But she says it's way too much red tape. It's taking way too long to get things done. But she was adamant.

[17:55:08]

Yes, Trump's better than Biden in her view. But do not get rid of FEMA. Make it better. Make it streamlined. Make it more user-friendly. Yes, but as the people of Texas go through tragedy nine months ago, those towns were under water. They say, you know, FEMA actually was a lot of help. Can it be better? Absolutely. Don't take it away.

TAPPER: That's exactly what her U.S. Senator Thom Tillis told me yesterday, another conservative Republican.

KING: Right.

TAPPER: John King, excellent work as always. Thanks so much.

President Trump said again today more tariffs are on the way after imposing dozens already just this week on various countries. But the 50 percent tariff threat on Brazil, that's different. This one is Trump attempting to use economic pressure as a political weapon on behalf of an ally. And it could come with a rise in prices on your orange juice and your coffee because of that ally. We'll explain ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:02]

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, Trump's beef with Brazil, why his latest trade war is in retaliation for what --