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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Epstein Case Fallout Divides Trump's Officials And His Base; Thousands Of Afghans In U.S. Losing Protected Status; The Impact Of Trump's Tariffs On Holiday Lights; Trump's New Plan To Sell Weapons For Ukraine Through NATO; New Book Explores The Qualities Of U.S. Presidents. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired July 14, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead on Jake Tapper.
This hour, Trump's MAGA base at odds with Mr. MAGA, the president himself, and all-in on calling for the Justice Department to release those long-hidden files about Jeffrey Epstein and say publicly who else helped this pedophile commit sexual crimes against children.
Plus, a deadline approaching tonight for thousands of Afghans living in the United States, the urgency by the Trump administration to end their special temporary protected status.
[18:00:04]
One Afghan told CNN if he's deported, he and his family will be killed.
Also coming up in just minutes, the NATO secretary general will be here live on The Lead just hours after sitting next to President Trump, as the U.S. pledged new weapons for Ukraine and imposed a new deadline on Russia.
The Lead tonight, the Trump administration's refusal to release any of the as yet unreleased files related to convicted pedophile and sexual trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. It's causing the MAGA faithful to lose faith. The political firestorm also spreading within the administration, infuriating President Trump, sources tell us. And despite repeated calls from some of the president's own ardent supporters to fire U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondy for not releasing more information, Trump is sticking by her for now, at least for now.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House for us. Kaitlan?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. Not only is he sticking by the attorney general, he has been firmly on her side as this controversy has continued and only had grown over the last several days, including when there was that ultimatum from Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director last week, where he essentially told the White House, either Pam Bondi has to go or he is going to leave as the deputy director. Now, I should note this morning started with officials texting each other and reporters, including me, asking whether or not Dan Bongino had actually showed up for work today at the FBI after he did not go into the office basically as a form of protest on Friday for how things had handled and this blowup that he had with the attorney general in the halls here of the West Wing last week when she was questioning him about whether or not he was leaking information about the Epstein files and about, you know, what the FBI was advocating for in that.
And we did find out and confirm this afternoon, my colleague, Kristen Holmes, reported that Dan Bongino did indeed actually go to work at the FBI today. He is still on the job as the deputy FBI director. But that was an open question just yesterday, Jake, when I was talking to officials who were talking about not only whether or not he wanted to stay in the job, but also how the president felt about this. Because, essentially, it had become this huge, dramatic moment where he wasn't speaking to a lot of people, leadership at the Justice Department, White House officials had not really heard from Dan Bongino since last week. And so there were real questions about what he was going to do here.
But also, Jake, what I was told is that the president was incredibly angry with how he had handled this situation and also with the FBI director, Kash Patel. There had been some reporting that he might also consider resigning. He put out a statement over the weekend saying that was not true and he was going to stay at the FBI as long as President Trump will have him there.
But, Jake, really, to just kind of encapsulate where the president came down on all of this, yesterday, we saw him attending a soccer game in New Jersey. By his side was the attorney general, Pam Bondi. So, despite the MAGA backlash that she has faced, and it has been quite a lot of it from his supporters, the president says he is sticking by her for now.
TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. Kaitlan's going to have much more on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. It's tonight at 9:00 P.M. Eastern only on CNN.
Over the weekend, President Trump's MAGA base made it pretty clear, they very much care about getting more information regarding Jeffrey Epstein. The drama making headlines at a conservative conference in Florida, and that's where CNN's Donie O'Sullivan spoke with some Trump supporters who want the Epstein files to be released.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the first topic that all of us as Americans, not as Democrats, not as liberals, not as Republicans, are actually lining together and saying, we all want the Epstein files. And I said, come on Donald, give us those files.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: We are here at the Turning Point USA Summit in Tampa, Florida. It is a big gathering of Trump supporters. And one thing everybody seems to be talking about here this weekend, Jeffrey Epstein.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to get to the bottom of Epstein because Epstein is the key that picks the lock.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST, THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW: Let me just ask you, make some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
O'SULLIVAN: what do you think is going to happen?
LISA BRITT, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think they're going to maybe give us pieces and maybe not the whole thing and think that that's going to suffice. And I don't think people are going to be quiet about it until they really do it. But who knows if we'll ever know the true story.
O'SULLIVAN: Can Trump just say, look, release everything?
BRITT: If you know anything about him, he can do and say whatever he wants. Do they have to listen? I don't know the legalities of that or the policies and procedures.
O'SULLIVAN: This is Turning Point USA Student Action Summit. It's an event aimed at mobilizing young conservatives.
Ultimately, I mean, how bad do you think it would be for the MAGA movement, for young people's trusts in Trump if, by the end of his term, they don't release everything they know about Epstein?
TAYLOR SHARP, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, I think that if they don't release the Epstein files, whatever J.D. Vance says then is irrelevant because it's like everybody's going to take it as like a lie because of what Donald Trump did.
[18:05:06]
But I think J.D. Vance wants these files released as well. And I think that Donald Trump, he promised them, so he needs to do it. No matter who's on them, we need them to release the Epstein files.
O'SULLIVAN: Because right now the whole debate's about Bongino versus Bondi. But, ultimately, it's Trump's decision, right? I mean, he has the power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's Trump's decision. It's Trump's decision. I think, again, and I'm not going to make the decision for the president, it's not my job, it's not my place, but I do think the way that I'm seeing it played out is that Bongino will be here and that Pam Bondi will be the fall guy.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you think that's fair?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think anything's fair in politics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'SULLIVAN: And Trump, I've -- sorry, Jake, I've never seen Trump supporters at odds as much with the president as over this issue at the weekend. In fact, on Truth Social, which is basically a pro-Trump echo chamber, that post at the weekend, the boys and gals post, has 47,000 comments under it, you'd be doing really well to find one that agrees with the president. It's overwhelmingly negative from the base.
TAPPER: And that's on Truth Social?
O'SULLIVAN: Correct.
TAPPER: Oh, wow, were never is heard a discouraging word about President Trump, shocking.
Donie O'Sullivan, thanks so much.
Joining us now to discuss, Democratic Strategist Karen Finney, former Trump White House communications director during the first term Mike Dubke.
So, Mike, sources tell CNN and the President Trump has been calling some of the most vocal critics of Attorney General Bondi over the weekend, including Charlie Kirk, who runs that Talking Points or is -- what's it called? Whatever it's called. Anyway, and it looks like it might've worked because here's Charlie Kirk today. You know this is just one day after sitting with Megyn Kelly talking about how important this is for everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, FOUNDER, TURNING POINT USA: I'm done talking about Epstein for the time being. I'm going to trust my friends in the administration. I'm going to trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done, solve it, balls in their hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Good boy. Good boy.
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Look, this is a class --
TAPPER: But, by the way, not to pick on Charlie, let me just also say, Matthew Gertz from Media Matters notes that Fox News today, 85 mentions of Biden, zero mentions of Epstein as of 4:00 P.M. according to Matthew Gertz. So, I mean, people are taking orders.
DUBKE: But here at CNN we're continuing to have this discussion.
TAPPER: Because it is something that they promised that they were going to do. It's a story that, by the way, like we had Julie brown on the show years ago to talk about this. This is a legitimate scandal.
DUBKE: It's a totally legitimate scandal. And this is a -- I think this is a classic example of overpromising and underdelivering. There were along the way -- there are legitimate questions that have to do around the handling of the files, the handling of him in jail, all of these things. They were exercised during the campaign. And now that the powers that we are in power with Pam Bondi at Justice Department and Kash Patel and others at the FBI, there is an expectation of these files being released. And they fumbled it terribly out of the gate, especially talking about the files are on my desk and all of this.
But the politics of this are that this could actually be one of the first areas of misstep within this administration and it's of their own making. And by that, I mean we've got the midterm elections coming up. There is immense worry amongst Republicans that without Donald Trump on the ballot, how are we going to turn out his base? Well, you turn out his base by keeping the base happy. And this isn't one of the ways that you keep the base happen.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I agree with that. I mean, I think part of what's interesting here, this is the -- I mean, there are people who are unhappy with the president for lots of different reasons, right? We're seeing that in the polls, whether it's the way he's handling immigration, whether it's tariffs, whether it's anxiety around inflation and cost.
What's different about this is the first crack we've really seen in that one third of the party that is solidly in Trump's corner, that when he threatens candidates and says, I'm going to primary you, that's who they're worried about, is whether or not those voters will turn out.
DUBKE: I do think he can come back from this though. I was -- my biggest surprise, just to be blunt on this, was the post that the president put out on Truth Social.
There is a disconnect here that I think he will realize that there is something that needs to be done for the base on this issue. And I do expect him to write the ship on this. Others have stopped talking about it. He needs to address it, and I think he will.
TAPPER: Can I just talk one thing that we haven't mentioned here, and I'm not blaming you guys, it's on me, but like there are victims.
FINNEY: Yes.
TAPPER: There are talking dozens and dozens of now women, then girls, who were sexually, at the very least, abused by Jeffrey Epstein and trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and possibly others.
[18:10:08]
And like they have stories to tell and they deserve justice and they did not get justice.
FINNEY: I agree with that and I think that's one of the things that endures. And, you know, there's sort of the conspiracy theory and then there's really the tragedy of those women and these survivors, I think, we need to call them, because they survive something horrible and do deserve justice. And they didn't get it in the form of a Jeffrey Epstein trial, whether you believe he committed suicide or not. Ghislaine Maxwell obviously cut a deal. So, we don't know what --
DUBKE: There's no trial, really.
FINNEY: No. So, there won't be that sort of public accounting.
But what I also think is important, I mean, what does righting the ship look like? Because, let's be honest, when you traffic in crazy conspiracy theories, don't be surprised when the crazy conspiracy theorists go crazy on you because you didn't give them what you promised.
And he's not only trafficked in it, but this has been, you know, part of the way he has stirred that part of his base for years. And so the -- you're right, they mishandled it. But what hubris to think we were just going to say we're not talking about it anymore, and that was going to make everybody go away?
DUBKE: And I think this is where the realization after this weekend at Turning Point.
TAPPER: Turning Point, sorry, Turning Point. I knew it was T.P.
DUBKE: Yes.
TAPPER: I knew it was T.P.
FINNEY: Well, but then what was Lara Trump talking about today when she suggested that there might be more to come?
TAPPER: I don't know.
DUBKE: I think at some point they are going -- whether it be flight logs or whatever else comes out.
FINNEY: That's sort of been out front.
DUBKE: But there are other lists.
TAPPER: There's a lot of information.
DUBKE: It doesn't have to be his list.
TAPPER: There's a lot of information that needs to come out. That could come out. We have covered this story four years, not just this week or last week, and, you know, I'm going to continue to cover it. I mean, I'm sure other stuff is going to take it up. But like these women deserve some justice and some closure. We're all agreed on that.
Karen Finney and Mike Dubke, thanks. They should bring you back to the White House. That's then you could tell them what's what and who's who.
DUBKE: I would offer all of this advice as well.
TAPPER: Here, it is free. They don't even have to pay you.
Ahead, hear that suggestion today from Lara Trump, President Trump's daughter-in-law, that there is probably more to come. Does she know what she's talking about?
And we will speak to the head of NATO about other issues, such as President Trump's new tone on Russia and weapons to Ukraine, and a new deadline for Vladimir Putin.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARA TRUMP, FORMER RNC CO-CHAIR: I don't know what truly exists there, but I know that this is something that's important to the president as well.
I believe that there will probably be more coming on this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: President Trump's daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, saying today that the Trump administration might release more information related to convicted pedophile and sexual trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Not sure if that's actually the plan though.
Sources tell CNN that the number two top official at the FBI, Dan Bongino, did return to work today. It's notable because he did not show up at the office on Friday amid this fallout with U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi over her handling of the investigation and refusal to disclose more information.
Let's bring in the former FBI deputy director, Andrew McCabe, as well as CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez.
Evan, Bongino's appearance at work today is one thing, but as long- term future as FBI deputy director, that remains uncertain, yes?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think uncertain, perhaps unlikely, Jake. I think everyone, including at the FBI and the Justice Department thinks that this is not tenable long-term. You can't have the deputy FBI director basically being insubordinate to his boss, who is the attorney general.
And in the end, you know, as someone pointed out, an attorney general is expensive, right, for an administration. The amount of political capital that goes into getting an attorney general confirmed especially with Thom Tillis, you know, now where he's at, politically, as you pointed out in your interview with him, you know, it makes it a lot more difficult for you to replace Pam Bondi than for you to replace Dan Bongino, who is not a Senate confirmed in a -- not in a Senate-confirmed job.
So, for those basic reasons people at the Justice Department and at the FBI believe that Bongino is going to leave at some point, perhaps after this dies down after a few days or weeks. TAPPER: And, Andy McCabe, I mean, is this tenable at all? As a former deputy director, I mean, of the FBI, first of all, is it not just stunning on its face that we know that the deputy FBI director is mad at the ATTORNEY GENERAL for how she has not released more information related to this? I mean, I've never known anything like that about any other deputy FBI director and attorney general.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Of course you haven't.
TAPPER: Right.
MCCABE: This has never happened to this level before.
I can tell you, Jake, I worked for a lot of attorneys general, full attorneys general, acting attorneys general, the idea that as deputy director, I would go into the White House and get into a shouting match with one of them in front of the president's chief of staff, I would have left the White House expecting to be fired before I got back to my office.
I'm kind of shocked that hasn't happened yet. Men and women in the FBI are standing back and looking at this. First of all, they're embarrassed. They don't like this kind of controversy about their organization. And to have their deputy director engaged in something that is really clearly insubordinate, in the least case, disrespectful, it's really head-spinning.
TAPPER: So, you and I were talking about this at the commercial, like the Epstein case has stunk from the very beginning, from the moment that Palm Beach law enforcement came in with a search warrant, and they'd been tipped off by somebody, probably somebody in the state attorney's office, or the U.S. attorney's office, who knows, but that the warrant was coming and they'd already stolen computers. I mean, this is a well-connected guy and the fix has been in from the very beginning.
But there is stuff that the FBI could do to release information that could at least satisfy those of us, like me, presumably like you, who do care about this story.
[18:20:05]
MCCABE: You know, to be clear, I'm sure there's information in that file that they can't release.
TAPPER: Sure.
MCCABE: 60 protected (ph) material, privacy act material, material from --
TAPPER: The names of victims who don't want to be named, yes.
MCCABE: Of course, that sort of thing. But they could go through that material. They could redact out that information and they could explain their redactions, explain why they're releasing things when they are to try to be as transparent as possible. The problem is they've backed themselves into such a corner by fanning the flames of the conspiracy theories that I think it's unlikely that those folks who believe those conspiracies will ever accept anything they say about it.
TAPPER: And, Evan, there's so much about Epstein that were still secret. For example, the investigation over his death, his autopsy, those were never made public. We had Julie Brown on the show earlier, the Miami Herald reporter who's won a lot of awards for her coverage of this, and she notes that the family's forensic pathologist did not believe that he committed suicide. Why not release this? Is it even possible that there are other people that could be charged in this case?
PEREZ: So, you know, that's actually a very good question. That last part is something that I asked over the weekend, Jake, because, you know, obviously, this was coming to a head. And, you know, one way to resolve this is to, you know, I thought maybe someone at the Justice Department or at the FBI would say, look, we're going to take another look and see if there's any other crimes that could be prosecuted. And I was told, no, there is nothing else. There is no nothing in these files that remain under seal, that remain not public that indicates a prosecutable case against anyone.
And so that's what I was told is part of the reason why, you know, if you have information, and, for example, people's names are in these files, right, people who were clients of Epstein's financial clients, right? These are people who he helped invest their money and so on. You know, the question is, is it fair for their names to be put out there when they're not being accused of crimes, they're not being associated with some of the horrible crimes that Epstein committed, right?
And so that's part of the consideration that is going on inside the Justice Department and lawyers and so on. And, you know, so that's a hugely important thing that I think will continue though to reverberate in this case, Jake, because you're asking the right question, which is, you know, what about these other people, right, who were on his plane, who went to the island and so on? And the Justice Department is kind of caught in a place where they believe that there's no more information they can release without doing other damage.
TAPPER: All right. Evan Perez, Andrew McCabe, thanks to both you.
Coming up, a deadline quickly approaching for a group of Afghan nationals while the Trump administration wants them out of the United States, that despite the fact that so many of them risk their own lives to help American service members during the Afghanistan war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:00]
TAPPER: In our National Lead, as of one minute before midnight tonight, the lives of thousands of Afghans living in the United States could become more uncertain and more endangered. They came here to get away from the Taliban, but as CNN's Dianne Gallagher explains, the Trump administration is ending what is called their temporary protected status.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Just west of Charlotte, the spices of Kabul drift out of S.B. Afghan Marketing Kitchen.
ZIA GHAFOORI, CEO AND FOUNDER, INTERPRETING FREEDOM FOUNDATION: We have these from Afghanistan.
GALLAGHER: For decorated former interpreters Zia Ghafoori and Bahroz Mohmand, this is their American dream.
BAHROZ MOHMAND, INTERPRETING FREEDOM FOUNDATION: Over here, it's land of opportunity.
GALLAGHER: Now, U.S. citizens, they've worked to help hundreds of other Afghan allies and their families with resettlement through their nonprofit, the Interpreting Freedom Foundation.
GHAFOORI: We have to and keep our promises that we made and we need to help those who help us.
GALLAGHER: But today, the Trump administration's rapidly changing immigration policies are making the IFF mission feel impossible.
GHAFOORI: It's a big chaos right now.
GALLAGHER: New refugee admissions paused indefinitely, leaving Afghans overseas in limbo. Special immigrant visas for interpreters and allies are still being processed, but their resettlement support programs have been suspended, altered, or eliminated. And many legal avenues for Afghans already here are stalled or ending, including temporary protected status on July 14th.
In her termination explanation, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem cited notable improvements in the security and economic situation in Afghanistan.
DHS says the situation in Afghanistan has improved. Has it?
GHAFOORI: No. This is -- that's funny. That's really, really funny.
GALLAGHER: Last month, President Trump included Afghanistan and his new travel ban, citing security concerns.
MOHAMMED, AFGHAN REFUGEE: I'm scared from myself. I'm scared from my family.
GALLAGHER: We spoke with Afghan refugees who fear retribution both back home and here. So, we're protecting their identities.
Mohammed, a former Afghan Commando with temporary status who worked with the U.S., began to worry in April that his family would be deported after DHS sent an email saying, it is time for you to leave the United States.
MOHAMMED: They want to deportation us to Afghanistan. We can go to in Afghanistan and say, okay, you work with the U.S. government for a long time. And then they killed us. They killed a family.
GALLAGHER: It was not a legal order, but it went out to thousands. Nashinus, an Afghan Christian who says he was tortured by the Taliban for his faith, got one too.
NASHINUS, AFGHAN REFUGEE: If I go back to Afghanistan, it is like I sign my suicide mission.
GALLAGHER: In a statement, DHS pointed out TPS is supposed to be temporary and noted, quote, anyone who was here on temporary protected status can still apply for asylum and other programs.
[18:30:04]
As more aggressive immigration enforcement tactics play out across the country, legal cases are backlogged for years.
MOHMAND: Some of them, they can't even step out of their house right now to go grocery shopping because they think that the ICE is waiting for them, and as soon as they go out, they'll grab him and deport them.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Bahroz Mohmand and Zia Ghafoori.
GALLAGHER: In his first term, President Trump mentioned Mohmand and Ghafoori by name at a Medal of Honor ceremony. Last year, believing his tough talk about the way the U.S. left Afghanistan would mean better treatment for Afghan refugees, they say they voted for Trump.
MOHMAND: We did have the assumption that when President Trump become the president, he might make this process even faster. You know, he might even give more support to Afghan interpreters.
GALLAGHER: They still want to believe that if the president hears their pleas --
GHAFOORI: Our president, Donald J. Trump, please help our Afghan allies.
GALLAGHER: Maybe he'll reverse course.
MOHMAND: I want U.S. government to fix this, you know? You promised, stand on your promise.
GALLAGHER: Dianne Gallagher, CNN, Charlotte.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Our thanks to CNN's Dianne Gallagher for that report. The Department of Homeland Security added there are Afghan nationals with TPS who have been investigated for fraud, public safety and national security. DHS did not offer us any examples. The IFF and some veteran groups have offered to help with vetting, if needed.
Over the weekend, President Trump launched a brand new round of tariffs on countries, 30 percent on Mexico, another 30 percent on the European Union. How small businesses here in the U.S. are dealing with Trump's tariff tactics, we'll ask in our Business Leaders series. That's next,
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TAPPER: Back now with our Small Business Leaders series, where we speak with small business owners from coast to coast about the impact of President Trump's tariffs and threats of tariffs on their businesses. Village Lighting in Salt Lake City, Utah, specializes in holiday lights and displays, everything from remotely controlled decorative lights to storage solutions to keep lights and artificial Christmas trees safe and dust free for the rest of the year.
Jared Hendricks started the company more than 20 years ago. Jared, thanks for joining us. First of all, tell us more about Village Lighting and how the president's tariffs and threats of more tariffs are affecting your business, if they are.
JARED HENDRICKS, FOUNDER AND CEO, VILLAGE LIGHTING COMPANY: They are very much affecting our business. I've been doing this for a long time, as you mentioned, over 20 years, and this is the hardest year by far.
We specialize, as you mentioned, in Christmas. We do Christmas in a very quick timeframe. So, we do -- most of our sales happen in three months. And so when you start talking about tariffs and issues like that, it really hits us hard because we have a very small window of time to make our entire year worth of revenue.
And in this case, where we have placed orders a year in advance for our product to start production and then to go through the production process and move into shipping, we don't have room to absorb any additional fees. And so for those of you who I would hope by now everyone understands what the tariff situation is, but, basically, if you hear some kind of tweet or message from Washington that says, China has a 30 -- will pay a 30 percent tariff, that is not true. They don't pay that. It comes to us, the importers.
In fact, when those letters and tweets go out, I could guarantee you that there's tens of thousands of small businesses in the USA who are having a very bad day. Because what that means is they're trying to figure out how to pay for their payroll, how to keep the lights on, and how to keep to get business going because their cash flow has just been hijacked by a new tax that wasn't in the budget. There's many layers of complexity, but, boy, this unexpected cost, the uncertainty the cash flow problems where you have to pay for it up front, and not to mention all of the other logistical ripple effect it has, extremely difficult for businesses like mine.
TAPPER: So, what have you done to keep up with your cash flow needs?
HENDRICKS: So, in my case, because we do bring everything over in such a short, compressed timeline for short compressed sales cycle, I honestly didn't have enough resources to pay the tariffs. So, I've had to leverage loans against my home or a loan against my home. I will be going into debt to pay for a fairly substantial tariff bill.
Of course, I don't have the margins. We don't function on margins to cover this particular tariff bill, and so I'm going to have to figure out a way to pay that loan back. It's leveraged against my house. My wife very much wants me to pay it back, so I'm going to try. And the only way we can pay it back is to pass those costs forward and to cut costs anywhere we can in our own organization.
TAPPER: Have you raised prices?
HENDRICKS: We are in the process of raising prices. We've got them all mapped out. However, because of the uncertainty of the next time's-up phase of the tariff situation, we are going to wait and see what happens. Anything can happen in the next 30 days and it's extremely uncertain, extremely troubling. We want to make sure that we raise the prices to the correct amount because it will greatly affect our season. So, we're just letting things unfold a little more and then we'll move forward with the change.
TAPPER: Utah is a pretty pro-Trump state. Are people in Utah mad at the president at all for any of this?
HENDRICKS: Anyone I talk to sure are concerned, especially when they hear my story. And earlier when I was talking about how tariffs work I try to just mention it as often as I can, I still feel like people don't understand what tariffs are and that somehow they believe the messaging that the country pays for it.
So, as I talk to people, they very much will become frustrated and I'm seeing in my very republic state, more and more frustration with Trump, certainly.
TAPPER: All right. Again, Village Lighting, it's in Salt Lake City. It's also as close as your phone or your computer, Village Lighting all one word, willagelighting.com, villagelighting.com. Jared Hendricks, thanks so much for joining us today.
If someone had to sum up your character in one sentence, what would it be? What one historian made of the qualities of modern day U.S. presidents and character and the importance of character, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our World Lead today, President Trump rolled out a new U.S approach for him to Russia's brutal war on Ukraine, in addition to threatening another round of punishing tariffs on Russia, if Russian President Vladimir Putin doesn't reach a peace deal in 50 days. Trump also announced a new arrangement to get U.S. weapons into the hands of Ukrainian troops. Listen to President Trump this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: We had a great meeting with NATO, the secretary general, and we're going to do something a little different for this country. We're going to supply weapons to NATO at a large amount. They're going to deliver the weapons and they're going to pay for 100 percent of the weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:45:03]
TAPPER: Back on THE LEAD right now, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte.
Mark Rutte, Secretary General Rutte, thanks so much for joining us.
So, NATO doesn't have a centralized bank account, but Trump says you're going to pay for 100 percent of the weapons. Is that right? How is that going to work?
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Quite simple. So European allies will buy from the defense industrial base in the U.S., that can be Patriot systems or missiles or ammunition. And then we will make sure that the U.S. will be reimbursed for whatever European allies are buying.
TAPPER: So, Trump says Putin has 50 days to make a peace deal or face these punishing trade consequences. Why do you think Trump's giving Putin 50 days? I mean, this war has now been going on for years. Why not just impose the economic punishments now?
You may know in the U.S. Senate, there's a bill supported by 85 senators to sanction Russia.
RUTTE: Yes. I will have dinner after this with Senators Graham and Blumenthal and others who are working on that bill. But I think what President Trump announced today is a real smart way to move forward, because what it basically says to India, to China and to Brazil, so countries still buying from Russia, hey, pick up the phone, call Vladimir Putin and tell him he has got to get serious on peace negotiations.
And if he doesn't, then we will be targeted. Of course, Russia itself, but also all these countries still buying from Russia. So, I think it is a very smart move.
TAPPER: So you just praised President Trump. You've given him a lot of credit for getting NATO allies to spend more on defense credit. He, without question, deserves from the first term and the second.
But last month, you had some criticism because some flattering texts that you wrote to the president that he shared to everybody were released. You appeared to call them daddy, daddy's home or something about like about time to get serious. RUTTE: Yeah, I said it. Get serious about Iran and Israel. And I said,
sometimes daddy has to be tough. And I should have said the growing up in the room or father. But the good thing about President Trump is that he -- that he then immediately coming back into the U.S. made this video daddy is home. So, and this is also one of the reasons why I like the man. He has that humor and that light touch, which is great to work with him.
TAPPER: Do you think it's also important to -- to be flattering to him that it serves, that your job is to keep NATO together and as a -- the strongest military alliance in the history of the world.
RUTTE: Uh-huh.
TAPPER: Do you really care if you get criticized for what you need to do in order to keep it?
RUTTE: I'm a politician for many years now. I was for 14 years prime minister of Netherlands. I can assure you, Dutch politics is brutal. You get your criticism, I don't care.
But here it is. It is rightly deserved because Trump, 45, was really pushing allies to spend more. He was successful.
TAPPER: Yeah.
RUTTE: Now Trump, 45, has led to a trillion extra spent in Europe and now Trump 47 got the eight countries not yet on the old 2 percent who moved to the 2 percent. And the outcome of The Hague summit is historic European stepping up, being able collectively with the U.S. to defend ourselves against the Russians.
So, he deserves this. So, this is not thinking, oh, I need to flatter somebody. No, this is when somebody is doing great stuff, why not say so?
TAPPER: So last time we spoke, you said you didn't think President Trump trusted Putin too much. But here's what President Trump said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We thought we had four deals, Howard, right, with Putin. Somehow, they end and we get off the phone. Oh, that was a very nice conversation. And then he sends missiles into a building someplace. I said, what was that all about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now this comes a few days after Trump accused Putin of peddling, quote, "bullshit" last week. It sounds like Trump is admitting that he did trust Putin too much. Or at least Putin is -- is full of crap. I mean, that's what he's saying.
RUTTE: Well, I see it like this. President Trump became president again in January. He picked up the phone on the 12th of February for the first time to cool -- to call Putin. He was the one who had to do this. This was breaking the deadlock, testing Putin whether he was serious. And then he got the Russians to Istanbul in may for the first round of talks with the -- with the Ukrainians.
But clearly, the Ukrainians sending a senior team, Russia was sending a junior team, with some historian leading the team discussing the history of Ukraine and Russia itself (INAUDIBLE). So, not really seriously taking these talks.
And then there was the sixth phone call now ten days ago, followed up by 700 drones into Kyiv and many missiles. So, what he has been doing is really testing the waters. And this is what the American president has to do. And now he came to the conclusion, okay, that phase is now over. We will do more in terms of weapon deliveries into Ukraine. We will do more in terms of sanctions and in tariffs on countries still trading with Russia. I think this is exactly what you expect them to do.
TAPPER: Ukraine says it needs 10 new Patriot missile systems. Do you think that target can be met and how soon by the end of the year?
RUTTE: Well, this is step by step. So today, Boris Pistorius, the German defense minister, was here having talks with Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, secretary of defense. And by the way, Germany now more than doubling its defense spending in only a couple of years.
[18:50:02]
TAPPER: Yeah.
RUTTE: So, this is also evidence of Europe stepping up, taking the outcome of The Hague summit series.
But when it comes to the Patriot systems, but also when it comes to ammunition and missiles, we will work on this from now on every hour, making sure that the stuff gets into Ukraine. But of course, we know it's not on patriots, it is also Patriots against ballistic missiles. You also need the air defense systems against cruise missiles. So, this is really discussing everything the U.S. can still deliver without hurting the defense of the U.S. itself.
TAPPER: NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, it's always great to have you here. Thank you so much.
RUTTE: Good to be on the program. Thank you.
TAPPER: Good to see you, sir.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our politics lead, grace, resilience, optimism, humility, giving back, doing good, doing what's right, depending on your political persuasion, those are qualities you may or may not attribute to the current residents of the White House or the previous residents of the White House.
[18:55:02]
But a new book argues those qualities do apply to some former occupants.
Joining me is Mark Updegrove, president of the Lyndon Johnson Foundation and author of the new book "Make Your Mark: Lessons in Character From Seven Presidents".
So, it's so cool you interviewed all seven of these presidents, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Bush, Clinton, Obama, and the underlying theme of the book is character and how each president tried to find the very best of himself in the White House, usually in times of a crisis?
MARK UPDEGROVE, AUTHOR, "MAKE YOUR MARK": Well, generally speaking. There's a major pillar of their legacy. That speaks to a certain
character trait. And a -- and a perfect example is Gerald Ford, doing what's right. Pardoning Nixon was politically expensive for him, but he did it to heal the nation. It cost him the election, probably to Jimmy Carter in 1976, but he knew that was the right thing to do. So that underlies a major portion of his legacy.
TAPPER: You describe Reagan as an optimist and how he changed the dynamic of the cold war and restored the nations battered confidence after the Iran hostage crisis and the '70s, the economic challenges of the '70s.
How was he able to make that turnaround?
UPDEGROVE: You know. Part of its the dynamic that he had with Mikhail Gorbachev. And interestingly enough, Reagan was -- he was a product of Hollywood. So he could play the role of president really brilliantly. And I think he made us believe in our country again by playing the president and instilling the notion that we could be better. But that relationship with Gorbachev, I think, was made all the difference in the turnaround in the, in the cold war dynamic. And part of that was humor. He used humor frequently, not only with Gorbachev but with others. And it was sort of the elixir of an optimist.
TAPPER: So you use the word resilience when you're talking about Clinton, Bill Clinton, although obviously many of the obstacles he faced, he faced, he'd put there.
UPDEGROVE: Yeah, right.
TAPPER: Right? I mean, there was self-inflicted wounds. But you also note that he was rarely bitter. How did he make his mark, do you think?
UPDEGROVE: You know, I think it's by the longest sustained period of economic growth in American history. And he did that by putting his nose to the grindstone every time. There was great scrutiny or great controversy around his presidency. He showed the American people that he was working for them. And it speaks volumes that after the impeachment, the Monica Lewinsky impeachment, Jake, his approval rating was at an all-time high of 73 percent.
The American people said, look, we know this guy has character flaws, but we can see him working for us.
And it's -- the proof is in the economy. He's creating opportunity. When he left the White House, he had the highest approval rating of any outgoing president in modern history, 64 percent.
TAPPER: And grace is how you describe President Obama. And there's this great story in the book that I remember. There's the photograph right there. That's five year old Jacob Philadelphia in the Oval Office after asking the president, is your hair like mine? Obama invites the young boy to touch his head. I believe Pete Souza took that picture that was up at the White House. I just know from being White House correspondent during Obama's first term that was up in the halls there.
Explain the significance of that moment.
UPDEGROVE: You know, that was about three months after he came in as the first African-American president. It's a big moment in history. And there was an outgoing -- there was an outgoing member of his security council, and they were getting the requisite photo and visit with the president. And as you said this, this young kid asked, is your hair like mine?
President Obama answered by bending over at 90 degrees and saying, feel for yourself. And the kid felt his hair and, you know, it was there was great symbolism in that, you know, that there were so many people in this country who could not relate to the occupants of the Oval Office.
And then there's the first African American. For a young kid like this see a hair like the president that spoke volumes about the significance of Barack Obama.
TAPPER: So you're one of the few people I know who's interviewed all seven presidents that are in the book. Again, Ford, Carter, Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton, Obama. I only had one Bush. Clinton, Obama. Not to mention the last two guys, but is there one thing that they all have in common? I mean, is there any sense of charisma or anything that you could detect from all seven of them? Or are they just all completely different?
UPDEGROVE: Not a lot of commonality, but the one thing I would say, Jake, is they passed the most important test. They loved their country. They put its interests above their own, and they did their best.
And I don't think we can ask a whole lot more from the occupant of the Oval Office than that, than those things. They did them. Some succeeded more than others. Some will get more vaunted places in history. None probably are belong in the presidential pantheon, with Washington and Lincoln and FDR, but they did make their mark in significant ways.
TAPPER: Again, the book is "Make Your Mark: Lessons in Character From Seven Presidents".
Mark Updegrove, thanks so much. Great to have you here in studio. Say hi to everybody back in Austin for me.
You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X, @TheLeadCNN.
If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now handing it over to you a little early, Erin. Have a good show.
