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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Fed Holds Interest Rates Steady Despite Pressure from Trump; Grand Jury Transcripts Requested by DOJ Include Testimony from Only Two Witnesses; House Speaker Faces Resistance from GOP Conference on Epstein Files. NTSB Hearings On Passenger Jet, Army Helicopter Crash; Harvard Professor On Why Interstellar Rock May Be Alien Ship. Aired 6- 7p ET

Aired July 30, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour the U.S. economy rebound, showing growth that surprised even some experts. But there might be still a few red flags. We're going to break it all down in just moments.

Plus, former Vice President Kamala Harris announcing she will not run for governor of California next year's midterms. Does that mean she's preparing for another White House run in 2028?

Also, in a very rare move, Arab and Muslim countries are calling for Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in the Gaza Strip. Is anyone in that terrorist group listening, as the humanitarian crisis inside the strip gets worse by the day?

And the new details released today as investigators try to figure out exactly what caused the deadly collision between an American Airlines flight and an Army helicopter six months ago outside Washington, D.C.

The Lead tonight, an economic uncertainty has the Fed holding interest rates steady, but with some dissent in the ranks. Is President Trump's pressure campaign working? This decision comes in the middle of a massive week for economic news with Friday's fast approaching tariff deadline and a gross domestic product rebound that is spurring debate.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is standing by to explain all of this. Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. It is a flood of news and a critical week for data, data that is still pointing to a lot of the uncertainty that the Fed was talking about a meeting over the course of the last couple of days.

Now, as you noted, the Fed maintaining rates where they were, despite the intensive pressure campaign from President Trump and his top advisers. But for the first time, Jake, in more than 30 years, it wasn't a unified vote of the 12 members of the Federal Open Market Committee. In fact, two governors, both Trump appointees, dissented and appear to back some of the policy arguments, if not the pressure campaign that the Trump administration has pursued.

Now, Powell was asked about this very rare event, at least in recent history. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: what you want from everybody and also from a dissenter is a clear explanation of what your thinking is and what are the arguments you're making, and that's -- we had that today.

The majority of the committee was of the view that inflation's a bit above target. Maximum employment is at target. That calls for modestly restrictive, in my way of thinking, modestly restrictive stance of policy for now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, Jake, what Powell made clear is that he wasn't going to commit to any future rate cuts at this point in time because there is just still too much that needs to shake out in large part because of President Trump's tariffs, as you noted that August 1st deadline just a couple of days away and things likely to settle in the wake of that deadline. Powell, however, making it clear, still views this as an early stage part of the process.

TAPPER: And, Phil, this new GDP report shows the economy grew at a rate of 3 percent last quarter. The White House is touting that, understandably, but there are some complex details in there. Can you tell us about it?

MATTINGLY: Yes. The top line number is big. It is a very good number that beat expectations, but not unlike the first quarter number, which was actually quite bad. It was actually less than 1 percent, less than 0 percent in the negative. It's complicated. It's not quite that clear. And just as you couldn't decide that the economy was in a terrible place in the first quarter, you can't say it's necessarily thriving in its second quarter.

If you take the median of the first six months, the economy grew at about 1.2 percent growing, but sluggish. Beneath those first two quarter numbers, you actually see mirror images of what exactly was driving it, and that was Trump's tariffs yet again. In that first quarter, importers were racing to import goods, which skewed how the actual GDP calculation is made, rolling up major inventories ahead of those tariffs, trying to front run things. In the second quarter, you saw the inverse start to occur as tariffs started to bite, and exporters started to roll up their purchases as well.

So, how this shakes out in the months ahead, again, it feels like everything comes back to the idea of how are tariffs actually going to settle in. The Trump administration making very clear they do not believe they will have any of the impact on consumers that has long been feared, but there's still a lot that needs to kind of settle into the market over the course of the coming weeks.

[18:05:05]

TAPPER: Phil, President Trump's tariff deadline is coming up fast. It's just two days away. He's floating, raising the blanket rate to somewhere between 15 to 20 percent. That's up from the current 10 percent blanket rate. What would be the impact of that at?

MATTINGLY: What's interesting about it is the Overton window on this has shifted. Now, keep in mind, when Trump came in 2 percent, a little above 2 percent was the net tariff, U.S. tariff rate. As it currently stands post-E.U. agreement and post where things stand right now, it's at about 17 percent, maybe a little bit above that, the highest since the 1930s, and yet that is considered survive an advanced number for people or for the E.U., for other countries that have been willing to make agreements. And by that, I mean, their economies can survive it, their producers can figure out a way to it not shut down entirely.

Now, there will be an impact, the scale of it, and probably most importantly, whether U.S. consumers see it directly, that is still just very volatile at this point in time. And we're going to have to see how it plays out.

TAPPER: All right, Phil Mattingly, thanks so much.

Almost simultaneously, President Trump taking further action on tariffs ahead of his major Friday deadline, imposing new duties on copper imports and hiking his tariff rate on Brazil up to 50 percent.

Let's bring in CNN's Chief Whitehouse Correspondent and Anchor Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, Trump's deadline is just two days away. How many more announcements are we expecting?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the question is really what happens on Friday and whether or not that deadline sticks. Because, obviously, we've seen previous deadlines from the president change or be shifted a little bit further down the road, and so that's really a question of today. But if the president's view of this is an indication, he posted in all caps today saying that the August 1st deadline is firm, that it is going to stay that way. He wrote on Truth Social, it stands strong and it will not be extended.

Obviously, that is something that a lot of nations are on tinder hooks right now, trying to wait and see if that truth actually comes to fruition come Friday, because that has been the big question here of these nations is they've been negotiating. At times, we've heard they don't know exactly what it is that the White House wants or what the United States is seeking.

The president has often made clear, Jake, though, in his talks, and as these negotiations have gone on with several countries over the last few months whether or not he's frustrated with them or don't think that they are doing enough. You just mentioned a slew of options that he took today. He also said he is threatening 25 percent tariffs on India on August 1st. That is just 1 percent lower than what they were on the so-called liberation day back in April. He went off on them for their trade barriers, for buying weapons and whatnot, related to the war happening between Russia and Ukraine.

And so that is a real question, Jake, because obviously that would have a massive impact as well. And so it remains to be seen what that August 1st deadline actually ends up looking like come August 1st.

TAPPER: And it's no secret obviously that Trump wants Trump how the lower interest rates. How is the mood today at the White House with today's news?

COLLINS: No, it's not. I mean, Jake, when he was standing next to Fed Chair Jay Powell last week, he kept saying that he would do the right thing. And, obviously, in the president's mind, he has made quite clear doing the right thing, in his view, is lowering interest rates. And, obviously, they remained unchanged today that it's not a surprise to the White House. I was talking to officials this week who said that they were expecting them to not change, at least this time. The question is what happens going forward.

And you saw Jay Powell citing in his remarks earlier today that there's a little bit of an indication of what the tariffs are doing to prices and to inflation. But he wants to see is it going to be persistent and what is the long-term effectiveness going to be, especially as a lot of these deals and negotiations are still either yet to happen or being hammered out now. And so that remains to be seen.

We actually saw the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, earlier today. I asked him if he had a response to Jay Powell. He did not answer that question, Jake. But obviously one thing the White House has collectively made clear is what they would like Jay Powell and the Federal Reserve to do here.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the 50 percent tariff on Brazil, if we can. We actually have a surplus with Brazil. Is this entirely rooted on the fact that there's a prosecution and investigation of a strongman, former president of Brazil that President Trump likes? Are we really going to be all spending more money on Brazilian coffee because Trump has a thug friend he wants to support?

COLLINS: Yes. And Trump says he is not his friend, Jake. But, obviously, we've seen Jair Bolsonaro at Mar-a-Lago. The president has a very strong affinity for him, thinks he is being wronged here in this corruption trial, or this trial that he is facing when it comes to the election and the election results in Brazil that happened. And what we've seen in the new president there is really pushing back on President Trump in a way that other world leaders have not been doing, especially when it comes to these trade negotiations and whatnot.

And when I asked the president a few weeks ago, we were outside of the South Lawn after he had just what he was going to do with Brazil, why he was doing that given that massive surplus that the United States has with him, because, obviously, with other nations, he has cited a trade deficit as his reasoning for putting tariffs on, he basically told me, Jake, because he can. [18:10:08]

Now, whether or not that ends up in legal filings as they try to challenge this remains to be seen, but, obviously, it would have a huge impact and it goes against the rationale that he had for inputting nations on other countries and making very clear it is about what is happening to Bolsonaro here.

TAPPER: Yes. The United States has a $6.8 billion trade surplus with Brazil, billion with a B.

COLLINS: Yes.

TAPPER: Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much.

Kaitlan's working on new reporting for her show, The Source of Kaitlan Collins, her guest tonight, Paul Dans, who is the architect behind that controversial project 2025, much of which seems to be coming to fruition. That's tonight and every weeknight at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.

What a memo from the Justice Department is revealing about his latest request for grand jury transcripts in the Jeffrey Epstein case.

Plus, former Vice President Kamala Harris passes on a run for California governor. Does that mean she has her eye on something else and, say, 2028 perhaps?

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TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, despite growing calls for the Justice Department to provide more transparency to the American people regarding the Jeffrey Epstein case, Tuesday's late night Justice Department request to the Southern District of New York was for just two items of testimony, both of them from law enforcement officials, according to a Justice Department memo.

[18:15:12]

Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche personally filed the unusual request.

Joining us now to discuss, Julie K. Brown, she's an investigative reporter with the Miami Herald. She's been covering the Epstein story for years. She wrote the fantastic book, Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein Story, came out in 2021. I recommend it for anybody trying to find out more, learn more about this story.

So, Julie, two law enforcement officials who are, according to the Justice Department memo, quote, the same FBI agent from the Epstein grand jury proceedings, and a detective with the NYPD, who was a task force officer with the FBI's Child Exploitation and Human Trafficking Task force. That's what they requested. So, no other witnesses, no other victims. What do you make of this very limited request by Bondi and Todd Blanche? JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE MIAMI HERALD: Well, we always knew, you know, when whenever you go before a grand jury, you don't present your whole case. You just present enough to get the indictment and then you keep working on the case. And that's what they did here. I mean, I know from the beginning they were still searching for more victims when Epstein was arrested after his indictment. They needed more information from victims. They put out a call to please come to us. So, they were -- they still had a lot of information that they had to investigate and to build their case.

So, they just preliminarily, I would imagine, presented enough information from the law enforcement people for them to get the indictment.

TAPPER: Yes. Trump, oddly, we keep learning new different reasons why Trump and Epstein had their falling out. First, we were told it was in that grifters book about Mar-a-Lago that Trump cut off Epstein from Mar-a-Lago because he was a creep, he had hit on a daughter of a Mar- a-Lago member. Then The New York Times reported that the Epstein-Trump falling out was over a real estate deal. They were both bidding for something that Trump ultimately won. But now, just a few hours ago last night, Trump said that it was because young women who worked at Mar-a-Lago were poached from his employee by Epstein. Listen to what Trump said last night on Air Force One when asked about Virginia Giuffre, one of the victims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. Yes he stole her. And, by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know, none whatsoever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, first of all, he stole her, is an interesting way to talk about the victim of sex trafficking. But it also raised a significant question about what Trump knew at the time and just the whole timeline here.

BROWN: Yes. Well, because that was in 2000, she was working at the spa. By the way, technically, she was stolen from by Maxwell, who is the very person that is Justice Department is now speaking to. And she -- you know, she's been convicted of helping him with his sex trafficking organization. So, it's sort of ironic that he keeps saying that Epstein poached his employees, or Virginia, when Maxwell was really the one directly involved in that.

So, you know, it's odd how the reasons for their falling out or their -- you know, them not being as close of friends keeps changing.

TAPPER: And since we last spoke, Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend, his partner, the one who groomed all these young victims for him, offered to testify before Congress. She demanded a lot of conditions, one of them immunity. Her attorneys also say she would only testify after her Supreme Court appeal is over. She also demanded all the questions ahead of time and on and on. What are you hearing from the victims? I have to imagine that they are concerned about yet another predator getting some sort of sweetheart deal here.

BROWN: Right. Well, one of them actually called me today and she's just -- you know, they are beside themselves because they don't understand what's going on. Imagine you're -- you know, after all these years, this has turned into an international story once again. And you're hearing all these, you know, not only the news that we're talking about here, but all the conspiracy theories, they listen to all those things. And some of them are deeply affected by some of the things that are all over the -- you know, the internet.

[18:20:01]

So, this is a retraumatization of what they've always felt, which is that nobody is really listening to them or understanding that this was such a serious crime and a travesty of justice.

TAPPER: All right. Julie K. Brown, thank you so much. I appreciate it, as always.

The longest serving Senate Republican pushing back today at President Trump after days of pressure and criticism. That GOP back and forth is next,

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TAPPER: Back with our Politics Lead. Last hour, I spoke with House Speaker Mike Johnson. If you missed any of it, we're going to post the entire thing online.

[18:25:01]

But right now, I want to bring in our political experts to discuss this moment and much more.

Tiffany, take a listen to what Speaker Johnson just told me about releasing the Epstein files.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I want everything to come out about the Epstein evils that is possible to be released because the people that were involved in those unspeakable evil acts should be punished with the greatest severity of the law. And it should have happened a long time ago. So, I'm fully in favor of that.

And, by the way, so is the president, he has said the same thing. We're using every mechanism within our power to do that and to do it as quickly as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I believe that in his heart he wants all that. Do you think President Trump does? TIFFANY SMILEY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, absolutely. And he is made it clear that he is being transparent about releasing the files to the American people. He has done it over and over repeatedly, every time this comes up in the media, he has been very clear. They're willing to sit down with Ms. Maxwell and get more information or more leads on anyone that might have been involved with this evil man. And anyone that has been involved with him needs to be held to account. He's been very clear about that.

But it's also important to note, like while the media continues to talk about this and spin it, as President Trump trying to withhold something, he's out working for the American people. And as the conspiracy theories will continue to spin and fly around, he's out getting stuff done every single day. So --

TAPPER: Do you think President Trump wants it all released?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. If he did, he would. It's very simple.

SMILEY: But he is.

BEGALA: It's about -- well, Lori's sandwich, Tiffany, he is in control of those files and he is not releasing them. And every day he has a different excuse. He could release them today. He should release them today, all of them. He won't because he can't. Now, I don't know why he can't, but he just feels like he can't do it. And it's not from some principle, okay? His only principle is self-interest.

So, I think that those victims, they deserve this. The country deserves this and Mr. Trump is covering it up and I don't know why. There's no good reason why he would be covering it up.

SMIMLEY: Well, he is also protecting the victims and it has to go through the course before anything's released.

BEGALA: No, it doesn't.

SMILEY: You need to remember that there people that --

TAPPER: The grand jury transcripts have to go.

SMILEY: Yes.

TAPPER: But most of the files are not grand jury transcripts.

SMILEY: And I guess I have to ask the question if there really is a smoking gun in this Epstein case.

TAPPER: I have no idea.

SMILEY: Then why didn't Joe Biden and Merrick Garland release anything?

BEGALA: Yes, I have no idea. First off, Garland should have first, but, second, I have no idea what's in there, neither do you, but Trump does. He's been briefed on it. His attorney general, according to published reports, told him he's in some of those files.

Now, he may be perfectly innocent. Honestly, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. We're all innocent until proven guilty, but he's proving himself to be hiding this and covering it up. And it's the worst thing he can be doing to his own base. They care more about this than anybody else. The MAGA base is being stabbed in the back by Mr. Trump.

SMILEY: No, they're not.

TAPPER: So, let's just move on. Former Vice President Kamala Harris announced a few hours ago that she's not going to run for governor in California in 2026. Does that mean you think she's going to run for president in 2028?

BEGALA: I think so, yes. I haven't talked to her. I don't have any inside knowledge, but sure. You know, the late Mo Udall who ran for president is a congressman from Arizona, he said the only cure for presidential fever is formaldehyde, embalming fluid. So, I always presume they're all running, and I think she should. I mean, my party's got a huge bench. It's a great bench. We have no leader right now, absolutely leaderless, but that's what a presidential primary is for. I want a big crowded, messy, aggressive, hard-hitting primary.

TAPPER: Well, you didn't get one last time.

BEGALA: No, we didn't, and we should have.

SMILEY: And you think that's Kamala this time around?

BEGALA: No. I said I want a primary. Who knows? We'll put them all on the track. But I want what we did not have in 2024, which is a tough primary.

TAPPER: In light of the mass shooting in New York City the other day, that horrible shooting, mayoral nominee for the Democratic Party, Zohran Mamdani, is walking back comments he made in the past about defunding the police. Here he is earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYORAL NOMINEE: My statements in 2020 were ones made amidst a frustration that many New Yorkers held.

I'm not defunding the police. I'm not running to defund the police. Andrew Cuomo is far more comfortable living his life in the past and then attacking tweets of 2020 and in running against the campaign that we have been leading for the last eight months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, one of the tweets he's referring to, he wrote back in 2020 and said, we don't need an investigation to know that the NYPD is racist, anti-queer, and a major threat to public safety. What we need to do is hashtag defund the NYPD. Andrew Cuomo obviously seized on this as would be malpractice if he did not after the attack.

So, what do you think of all this?

SMILEY: I mean, this is what he just won his primary on, right? Was defunding the police, free housing, free communities, free grocery stores. And so I think he's going to have a hard time walking back those comments now. New York is one of the most strict gun law states. And to see something like this happen, it's horrific. I mean, I was talking today to folks about it, my drivers about it, like it's absolutely horrific that this is happening in our country.

[18:30:01]

And Mamdani is by far the most progressive, far left candidate that our country has ever seen. And it should wake everyone up.

TAPPER: Everyone stand by. I want to turn to a bruhaha raging on Capitol Hill right now. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley, Republican of Iowa, says that he has been insulted by what President Trump posted on social media about him. It has to do with how the Senate handles opposition to nominees to the federal judiciary from both senators from that state. It's called blue slipping. It's not -- it's kind of in the weeds but it's a long held tradition.

CNN Chief Congressional of Correspond Manu Raju is going to break it down for us. Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this has become a very personal fight with very significant implications for the Senate. One of the last bipartisan traditions in the United States Senate is to allow home state senators to sign off on district court nominees and U.S. attorney nominees who are picked by the president. That essentially gives Democrats veto power if they don't like one of the President Trump's picks, whether it's to those lower court chips or potentially for a U.S. attorney position.

That's what Donald Trump wants to do away with. He does not like the way Democrats have been handling this, and that's what Senate Republican leaders are pushing back against. And Donald Trump escalated things pretty dramatically and launching a series of attacks on Truth Social, re-tweeting -- reposting attacks on Truth Social against Chuck Grassley, calling him a RINO and the like.

Grassley, a veteran Republican, the longest serving Republican in the United States Senate, someone who was elected into the chamber in 1980, made clear he is not too thrilled by the president's attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA): I was offended by what the president said, and I'm disappointed that it would result in personal insults.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And, Jake, I also asked Grassley about the president's claim that it was because of Trump's endorsement that Grassley won reelection back in 2022. Grassley told me, quote, I have never been down by the polls. He referred to also his primary win when he won by almost 50 points. And so he said I could have gotten elected without his endorsement, but, Jake, he added, but I did appreciate his endorsement.

TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju, thank you so much.

Why bring this up against Grassley? I mean, Grassley, just for the record, he's not a RINO, he's not a Republican in name. He is a very conservative Republican. He is an institution in Iowa.

SMILEY: Well, look, I think President Trump is frustrated, and rightfully so, with the delay in getting his nominees through. And he sees this as an outdated rule that's sort of impeding him to getting what he wants and delivering results for real America, right? That's why he won, to break through the status quo, to shake things up.

And at the end of the day, Thune, Grassley, President Trump, they all want the same thing, and that's to get President Trump's nominees through as fast and as quickly as possible, and they're running into some roadblocks.

So, I think it's just a frustration on the president's part. And he is the master negotiator, so he knows how to get what he wants in the end.

TAPPER: So, I think one of the problems here is Alina Habba, he wants her to be the U.S. attorney un New Jersey, and that state has two Democratic senators, Cory Booker and Andy Kim, and they don't want her. And this is traditionally a way that both parties use the blue slip process, and it's a way to make sure that the U.S. attorney in Texas during a Democratic administration is somebody that Republicans in that state feel like they can work with.

BEGALA: Right. It's one of the last vestiges of bipartisanship. And so, of course, Mr. Trump's going after it. What he wants is to be an autocrat, and he's well on the way there. He doesn't want checks and balances. This is the Senate checking and balancing the president. We're not used to seeing that in the last six, seven months because Mr. Trump has been so successful at cowing all these -- Republican senators are cowed, you can hear them moo.

Chuck Grassley's standing up on his hind legs. And I don't think he's scared of Trump on this because he's got -- believe me, he's got the Senate behind him on this, because it's a senatorial prerogative that they're not going to turn loose of.

TAPPER: All right. Paul Begala, Tiffany Smiley, thanks to both you. I appreciate it.

As we continue to see these haunting images of starvation and Gaza, yet another western country is now saying it's going to recognize a Palestinian state in just weeks. That's next.

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[18:35:00] TAPPER: This just in, the Trump administration has reached a $50 million agreement with Brown University. The school agreed to several measures, including dismantling certain diversity, equity and inclusion programs. In exchange, of federal government will reinstate federal grants frozen in response to allegations that Brown failed to protect Jewish students on campus after the October 7th attack on Israel.

The White House and Brown say the $50 million are going to be paid over ten years to Rhode Island workforce development organizations to help the regional economy and create jobs. This agreement comes just after last week's $221 million settlement with Columbia University.

In our World Lead now, for the first time, a group of Arab and Muslim countries, including Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, have issued a joint call for Hamas to disarm and to relinquish power in the Gaza Strip. Just moments ago, Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney also joined a growing course of western nations planning to recognize the Palestinian state at the big United Nations Assembly in September, unlike the United Kingdom whose leader said the U.K. would back down if Israel achieved a ceasefire, Canada did not put similar conditions on its announcement.

All of these unprecedented moves come as Gazans keep dying while they try to reach -- try to eat, trying to reach aid. More than 50 people were killed today, according to the director of the Al-Shifa Hospital in Northern Gaza.

Joining us now to discuss is David Milliband. He's the president and CEO of the International Rescue Committee and former British foreign secretary. Secretary Milliband, good to see you, as always.

Let's start with Prime Minister Keir Starmer's recent announcement. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The U.K. will recognize the state of Palestine by the United Nations General Assembly in September unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:40:04]

TAPPER: Canada doesn't have those conditions. They said they're just going to acknowledge a Palestinian state. Do you think the U.K. is going to follow through in September? Is this just a threat to try to get Netanyahu to take the starvation crisis seriously?

DAVID MILLIBAND, PRESIDENT AND CEO, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE: I think there's a very deep-seated sense of political emergency about the situation in the Middle East, and particularly whether there'll ever be a resolution of the dispute of a land between Israel and the Palestinian people. I think that I would describe it as the British and now Canadian governments trying to put a defibrillator on an essentially moribund political process.

Obviously, our concern as a humanitarian agency is the moral and, really, political emergency in Gaza, but I think there is obviously a wider context. The humanitarian emergency has a very clear resolution. The politics is obviously much more complex.

TAPPER: Yes. And tell us about what you think the significance is of this group of Arab and Muslim countries, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and others, calling on Hamas to disarm and relinquish power? That strikes me as, as quite significant.

MILLIBAND: Yes, I think that's a good point. Look, there's always been a demand that there'd be more straight talking, straight talking about who should govern Gaza clearly post-October the 7th. It needs to be a new administration, clearly, in addition. It's very important there's straight talking about the way in which all countries of the Middle East are going to have to contribute to a resolution of this issue in a way that guarantees safety and security for Israel and dignity and statehood for the Palestinians. That's been at the essential conundrum all along.

Now, I would argue that feeding people is not the cause of terrorism. Feeding people is an imperative. It's not feeding them that is fueling the danger that we're seeing around the region.

TAPPER: You have a new article in TIME Magazine where you say, quote, the solution is tragically simple. First, open all viable land crossings, not for hours, and not with caveats, but at scale with fast screening and consistency to flood Gaza with aid immediately. Second, ensure unimpeded access for humanitarian organizations to reach children and their families from Rafah to Northern Gaza. Third, the political tracks still matters as ceasefire remains vital, unquote.

If you could speak directly with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu today, what would you tell him?

MILLIBAND: I would say that the opening of the land crossings proved its worth in January, February, and early March during the ceasefire. We showed how to get aid in, to get it to the right people and to make a difference to people on the ground. Now, we're in a situation where an independent agency has assessed that effectively 100 percent of the population are facing acute food insecurity. This is a very unusual kind of finding. Because even in somewhere like Northern Nigeria, the assessment is only one in six people are in acute food insecurity.

For the independent international phase classification system, to say 100 percent of people are facing acute food insecurity and that there is effectively famine two out of the three conditions met that the only two they were able to measure. This is an unprecedented political and moral emergency. It's one that has a clear resolution in the opening of the crossings in the way that's proven its worth before.

TAPPER: But opening the crossings is not the only issue here. The United Nations has a graphic on its website showing the amount of aid that's reached Gaza since mid-May this year. In the past few months, the U.N. says, nearly 30,000 pallets have been collected from the border crossings, but more than 25,000 of those have been intercepted either, quote, peacefully by hungry people or forcefully by armed actors during transit in Gaza. So, that leaves roughly 4,000 pallets that reached their intended destination.

A recent U.S. government review found there was no widespread looting of aid by Hamas, however. So, what are you hearing from your IRC staff on the ground about the looting, about the fact that according to the U.N., there are a lot of pallets are seized.

MILLIBAND: Well, I'm very glad that you've raised this because I discussed this directly with our own teams on the ground who are both providing nutrition and water and sanitation services, but also trying to deliver medical aid. We have pallets trapped on the wrong side of the Israel-Gaza border.

What they say is, first, is the shortages that are putting a premium on the small amount of goods that are coming in. That's what's fueling the violence around the crossings. Secondly, the aid drops are actually contributing to disorder rather than helping to resolve it. And that's why, thirdly, we should use the trusted mechanisms, not just the four distribution points that have been opened for the so- called Gaza Humanitarian Forum, where the 50 deaths that you rightly note today are a further tragic occurrence on top of another thousand. What we need is the effectively 400 distribution points that were being used in the period of January, February, March, when we were able to make a significant humanitarian difference.

[18:45:01]

TAPPER: Secretary Millibank, thank you so much and thanks for what you do. I really appreciate it, always great having you here.

Coming up next, the new details reveal today about the final seconds before the deadly collision between an American Airlines passenger plane and an army helicopter.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our national lead, an investigative hearing is underway right this minute here in Washington, D.C., as the National Transportation Safety Board tries to figure out exactly what caused that horrific crash between an American Airlines flight and an army helicopter earlier this year.

CNN's Pete Muntean has more for us now on the new details revealed today about the final seconds before that horrific collision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the deadliest crash involving a U.S. commercial flight in two decades, a hearing of unprecedented scope, three days of testimony, 200 new documents and 10,000 pages of interviews, tests and transcripts to find out how an Army helicopter and American Eagle jet could collide over the Potomac River.

National Transportation Safety Board chair Jennifer Homendy.

JENNIFER HOMENDY, NTSB CHAIR: This is not an adversarial hearing. This does not mean difficult question's wont be asked.

MUNTEAN: The agency's packed hearing room fell silent as investigators showed 11 minutes of flight tracks and audio of a controller in the Reagan National Airport tower, warning the Black Hawk pilots of the incoming CRJ 700.

[18:50:07]

TOWER: Pat 25, do you have the CRJ in sight?

TOWER: Pat 25, pass behind the CRJ.

HELICOPTER PILOT: Pat 25 has aircraft in sight, request visual separation.

MUNTEAN: Just released transcripts from the helicopters voice recorder detail that exchange, prompted the army pilots on a training flight to discuss changing course. The instructor tells the pilot, "come left for me, ma'am," and the pilot responds, "fine," but it was too late. Not a second later, the recordings captured the sound of the collision.

TODD INMAN, NTSB BOARD MEMBER: How much tolerance for safety should there be when civilian lives are at risk? How much is that tolerance? I think it should be zero.

MUNTEAN: The board grilled army officials for what they call discrepancies with the helicopter's instruments. Following the crash. The NTSB tested three Black Hawks from the same army unit and found their altimeters displayed 80 to 130 feet lower than the helicopters' actual height. Investigators underscore only 75 feet separated the helicopter route and the approach path passenger planes fly into national airport.

HOMENDY: That's significant. My concern is where else in the national airspace does that exist?

MUNTEAN: Doug Lane lost his wife, Christine, and son Spencer in the crash.

Tuesday, Senate Republicans proposed a bill mandating harsher rules for helicopter flights near airports.

DOUG LANE, HUSBAND AND FATHER OF CRASH VICTIMS: Every meaningful step towards transparency, accountability and safer skies is a victory for every family who has suffered an unimaginable loss.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MUNTEAN (on camera): PSA Airlines was operating this American Airlines regional flight, and the NTSB spoke to its pilots, and they said they got collision alerts for helicopters flying near Reagan National Airport five times in as many months, including one the night before this crash. There was also this bombshell admission by the army aviation brigade, in which they said that its helicopters would regularly fly below flights descending into land at Reagan National Airport.

The major theme here, Jake, this was so preventable.

TAPPER: So tragic as well.

Pete Muntean, thanks so much.

My next guest says there are signs that a comet -- a comet in space, may actually be an alien craft on its way to Earth.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:56:38]

TAPPER: In our "out of this world" lead, where some scientists see a mere rock hurtling through space, one professor sees possible signs of alien life. Comet 3I/ATLAS is the third known object outside our solar system, discovered by a NASA-funded telescope.

Let's bring in Harvard astronomy professor Avi Loeb.

Professor Loeb, thanks for joining us.

What makes you think 3I/ATLAS could actually be an alien spacecraft?

AVI LOEB, ASTRONOMY DEPARTMENT CHAIR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me.

Well, if it's a solid object, it has to be quite large to reflect as much sunlight as we detect. But the main unusual aspect of it is that it's moving on a very special trajectory that lines up with the orbit of the Earth around the sun. With that plane, it will get closest to the sun when we won't be able to see it, because we will be exactly on the opposite side of the sun. It gets unusually close to all the inner planets with a likelihood of less than one part in 20,000. And moreover, it moves in the opposite direction to the motion of the earth around the sun that basically prevents us from reaching it or intercepting it with any of our rockets.

And it also came from a special direction in the sky that is very crowded in stars. So that's why it was discovered only recently. And one wonders whether this trajectory was designed.

You know, we are in a special time right now when astronomers can discover objects from outside the solar system, and we expect a new one every few months. And I argue that we should check each and every one whether it might be alien tech, because that would be a security concern. TAPPER: We should note that this is not the first time you've

projected that there's alien life on its way. In 2017, you suggested Oumuamua, the first interstellar object detected in our solar system, also might be an alien spacecraft. You have critics, as you know, who call your claims sensational.

What makes this one different?

LOEB: Well, it was not sensational. It's just that Oumuamua was on its way out, so we didn't collect enough data. My main motivation in suggesting the possibility that 3I/ATLAS might not be a comet is to encourage my colleagues to get as much data as possible.

You know, science should be asking questions and answering them with data, with evidence, and assuming that we can tell the answer in advance is really inappropriate. It's anti-scientific.

And I am saying we sent out technological objects to space. Voyager will be on the opposite side of the Milky Way galaxy in a billion years. So, we should be humble and expect smarter kids on our block.

You know that we are late to the party. The sun formed only in the last one third of cosmic history, and we should just examine the sky and see what comes our way.

And this one is moving on a very special trajectory. So let's monitor it. If it ends up being a comet, so be it. And we should then monitor the next one that comes along.

TAPPER: At some point, one of them is going to be an alien craft, one has to think.

Professor Avi Loeb, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir.

LOEB: Thanks for having me.

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