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The Lead with Jake Tapper

White House Defends Firing Of Senior Labor Official After Jobs Report; Texas Governor Orders Arrest Of Absent Democratic Lawmakers; U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff To Visit Russia on Wednesday; Trump Tariffs Disrupt Mother-Daughter Hair Business; George Takei's Fight For Equality In New Graphic Memoir. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired August 04, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper.

This hour, President Trump defending his decision to fire the woman behind the federal jobs numbers just hours after a federal jobs report that he didn't like. Today, Trump claiming those numbers were, quote, rigged to make him look bad.

[18:00:01]

In moments, I'll be joined by two people who held that job under both Republican and Democratic presidents for a reality check.

Plus, the governor of Texas has now ordered the arrest of Democrats who skipped today's session and fund the state in protest over Republican efforts to redraw the state's Congressional map, giving GOP even more power in Congress. Ahead of the Democratic National Committee joins me live to react in just moments.

Also, a remarkable story from the frontlines of Putin's war, how Ukrainian forces used a drone and an electronic bicycle to rescue an injured soldier who feared he was going to die alone in a bunker.

The Lead tonight, the firing fallout, President Trump still facing questions and outright criticism over his abrupt dismissal of the top official in charge of Friday's feeble jobs report. Now, one of Trump's top economic advisers stoking his claims that the data was rigged. But where is the evidence exactly?

Let's get straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House. And, Kaitlan, what evidence have White House officials put forth up to this point?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: None. They have just pointed to the revisions, Phil, and said that that is the reason that they believe that there was something and some kind of partisan motivation here behind the revisions that came out with that jobs report on Friday that led to the firing of this official who had worked in the government for decades.

Yes, she was a Biden appointee, but as has been pointed out many times, she was confirmed by a wide bipartisan margin, including two yes votes from then-Senator Marco Rubio, and then-Senator J.D. Vance, obviously, who are now secretary of state and vice president respectively. But this is something that the White House has continued to push as their defense for firing her and justifying why they pushed McEntarfer out of this job and say that she was not the right fit for this job.

Obviously, she does not compile this report alone. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people who work on these reports. And you've spoken to past commissioners and past treasury secretaries who have said it is impossible for the one commissioner in charge who simply has her name on the report to manipulate the data in order to hurt the president. Yet that has continued to be the defense from the president and even his top own economic advisers, people like Kevin Hassett, who have said that the president deserves to have his own people in that position.

And they have not provided any evidence for why they say she was manipulating this data or to show that she was manipulating the data. Of course, it was a huge revision. That is why the White House was so upset about it. But we've seen these revisions in the past, Phil, and I should note that last fall when a report that was put out by McEntarfer showed that there were only about 12,000 jobs added in the U.S. economy, the president was touting it out on the campaign trail against the Biden administration.

And so the question now is who he chooses to replace her with. He says that's going to come in the next few days. And, of course, whoever that is, Phil, will have to be approved by the Senate first.

MATTINGLY: You know, Kaitlan, one of the things I've been trying to figure out, the president's fired a lot of people and he's claimed he's going to fire a lot of people. The blowback he's facing here, do White House officials feel pressure from it?

COLLINS: They don't seem to feel a lot of pressure so far. I mean, they've been defending it. The question I think, you know, with Congress being out of town and on recess is they're not hearing from a lot of Republicans who are being questioned about this by reporters, like our colleagues who are in the hallways of Capitol Hill. That is the only pressure typically that, you know, gets the White House's attention, either from that or the base. And so far they haven't faced that from the base over this.

But I think, you know, coming out of this, you know, the way that economists were looking at this, the way that Wall Street was looking at this is there was such a direct line between the numbers that the president did not like and the firing of the BLS commissioner that I think that was what was raising questions. But, obviously, those numbers still exist and it still raised questions about the state of the U.S. economy.

And so those are questions the White House will solve to reckon with, would this commissioner there or not?

MATTINGLY: Yes, that's a great point. Kaitlan Collins for us at the White House, thanks so much.

And, of course, Kaitlan will have much more tonight on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. That's at 8:00 Eastern here on CNN.

And joining me now are our two former commissioners of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Kathy Utgoff, who served in the Bush administration, and Bill Beach, who served in the Trump and Biden administrations.

I really appreciate you both joining me in part because I come from covering this world and have an understanding of the kind of complexities into the process that ends with the jobs report, none of which involves the BLS commissioner until, my understanding, is about Wednesday of the week. But I think explaining why this matters and why this is important is essential in this moment.

And, actually, I kind of want to start with you about that. What is your kind of initial response to the BLS commissioner being fired in the wake of a bad jobs report?

KATHY UTGOFF, FORMER COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATITICS, GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION: Oh, my initial impression was he made a big mistake. He's just kicked up a hornets' nest, and there are going to be so many people who's saying he did a bad thing, and that is consequential and that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is crucial for democracy and it is a crown jewel. It is a jewel that we have. It's the best statistical agency in the world.

[18:05:00]

And the only people who are defending him are his own people, and they keep digging in every day. They make things worse for themselves. And I thought when he said this, it was his normal, spontaneous, you might call it, remark, and then it was going to blow over, like moving the submarines, but they just kept digging in and digging in. And he kept sucking one of my own people. And somebody told his people that, well, you can't change the numbers.

So, Kevin Hassett says, well, we're not just going to change the commissioner, we're going to get rid of the statisticians and the economists, all right? So, it's just -- it's amazing what they're doing and he keeps sucking on one of my own people. It's not the words somebody -- his people who are used to the spontaneity should be better able to handling it, I think that it would've been a one day story. Because, really, nothing is -- people should know nothing bad is really going to happen. You can't change the numbers.

MATTINGLY: You know, Bill, to that point, you were one of his people, in the sense that you were his appointee and you served two years into the Biden administration. I didn't hear much from Brian Deese and that crew being angry about you during any jobs reports. But to the point being made here, the commissioner's role here, how much say did you have over what the final numbers were going to be when you saw them on Wednesday to the Friday when they were released? WILLIAM BEACH, FORMER COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, TRUMP AND BIDEN ADMINISTRATION: Well, I think zero is the upper bound of that response. Commissioner Utgoff handed to me a very fine organization that was dedicated to getting the numbers out without any political interference or even the appearance of any political interference, and bristled at the fact that they had a commissioner appointed by President Trump. I had a lot of work I had to do to assure them that I would not bring any pressure whatsoever on the process of collecting the data, organizing it, summing it up, running the math so we could get to the sectoral details and also to the totals.

I would see the data Wednesday morning around 11:00 after it'd been totally loaded into all the computers that BLS maintains. There was no way for me to change the data. I could have said, oh, you people need to do a better job. The numbers are too low or too high. It would've made a zero difference to that staff. In fact, they would've talked to me less. They actually locked the doors one time, so I couldn't get in before they knew I was going to be okay. They locked the doors so I couldn't get into any of their offices of this group, the 40, they're putting it together.

So, I just have to say this. There's no reason President Trump should have known about the way the process worked. He doesn't need to know, and he was just badly informed by a lot of people who should have told him, don't do this because this is not a system that's broken because of a conspiracy.

I will say this, and I think that commissioner would agree with me. There's always room for improvement. We need to have a better way of collecting these numbers of more cost effective way. That's what I hope the president does now, he says, backs off on this and says, okay, let's really go in there and improve the statistical performance of a good organization.

MATTINGLY: You make a really good point because -- just real quick, because I want to make this point. It is not a new thing saying there are better methods to do things, and we need to have discussions about better methods, particularly in the wake of COVID and where the response rate has been. It is a little bit, hypocritical to do what they've done when you have a budget request that cuts the overall total and cuts the actual career officials that would be there.

Will you trust data coming out of BLS going forward?

UTGOFF: Yes, I would. It's such a stable -- it's been around since 1884. These people know what they're doing. And I wouldn't say try to do better with the same money. I would say you really need to have more money here because you have to collect more data to make it more reliable. And it's just unconscionable cutting people and money when the BLS is crucial to running the country. It's not as expendable.

So, they should have more money. And that's the one thing I hope comes out of this because there's so much attention on the BLS. Maybe people will say, oh yes, I did say it's crucial for democracy. Maybe I look and see how much money they have, and they will be appalled about the 20 percent reduction in the last since 2001.

So, I'm hoping something good comes out of this. It's been -- I don't think the administration is going to recover. but I hope there's something good that comes out of it, which is more money for the BLS and people -- the two of us will help people understand that nothing bad is going to happen. The numbers aren't going to be change.

MATTINGLY: Just last thing before I let you guys go, to make this point, and I forget sometimes to try and explain this because it's just such how the process works, revisions.

BEACH: Revisions, tight.

MATTINGLY: My view has always been, that's a good thing.

[18:10:01]

UTGOFF: Yes, exactly.

MATTINGLY: They're getting more information over time and they're revising and they're acknowledging, we weren't quite there on this one, we made it better this time.

BEACH: Yes.

UTGOFF: Yes.

MATTINGLY: How should people who are watching this and saying it's true, they're wrong a lot, why do they revise so much?

BEACH: So, it's not a matter of being wrong, it's a matter of having more information the second and third months that this window is open. We send out surveys to 600,000 businesses. Those businesses don't all do their job the same month that they should do their job. About 68 percent get their stuff in. The next month, another bunch get in, it's got up to 83 percent complete. And then by the end of the third month, it's around the 90s, 92, 93, good survey. So, it's additional information. That additional information lets you know whether or not you should revise up or down or not revise at all.

So, who would not want additional information? I mean, that's just -- I mean, the world doesn't work with less information. It works with more. So, this is a -- these revisions are not mistakes. These are improvements on the initial estimate.

UTGOFF: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Really important point. I really appreciate your guys' time for being here. I imagine I will probably ask you to do this again quite often, if you guys don't mind.

UTGOFF: Yes. But I think this story should have died a few days ago, and they just keep it going.

MATTINGLY: Yes. And that, I think, makes it really important to actually tell people how this all works. UTGOFF: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Thank you guys very much.

UTGOFF: You're welcome.

MATTINGLY: We really appreciate it for your time.

Well, I want to bring in now, Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska. Congressman, what's your reaction to kind of how this has all played out over the course of the last couple days, the president's willingness to fire the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics? So, I can't fathom he had any idea who that individual was prior to Friday morning.

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): Well, I got two takes on this first. I do think it was a mistake to so rapidly fire this director. I think it was probably very important to get the facts first and then make a decision. But shooting the messenger when you're the boss has a lot of impact. I'm a five-time commander in the Air Force, and you don't shoot the messenger. You try to get behind those numbers and understand what needs to be done. And maybe after review and you see that maybe there was some malfeasance or negligence, maybe you could make a decision to fire them.

But I think in this case, the numbers reflect about 45 percent of the data for the first month, and you're going to have second and third month to get more data and you can get some revisions. That's what happened with also their revisions for the second and third month this time around. And just shooting the messenger is not a good thing if you're a boss.

The second thing I'd to say, we have to have accurate data to make decisions. And if there's any taint or perception that this data becomes partisan or you're hiding the real data or real facts, that has a real impact on. You know, our federal bank is making decisions on interest rates and the president making other economic decisions. We got to have real data to make decisions on and we got to protect that. We got to know that what we're looking at is the best data to the best of their knowledge, doing their best efforts to get the right data.

MATTINGLY: Yes, I don't think there's any question about that. In your time on Capitol Hill, have you ever, have you had concerns about that? Has there been things that you've looked at and said you don't think that's actually the case with what the government's presenting?

BACON: Well, the revisions at times have been pretty drastic, like they were this time where we saw a significant decrease in the employment numbers. But if you dig behind why that happened, and I was doing some reading today in one of our papers, and there was a lower than normal turnout for the initial tranche of information. And then you get the second and third tranche and it created a significant change.

And what I understand is the bureau here is getting -- they're not getting the feedback in an expeditious manner like they used to. So, we're starting to see more significant revisions there. But that doesn't mean these people are trying hard. That doesn't mean that they're trying to skew the data. And so I think the president should have done due diligence, did a review before pulling the trigger here.

Shooting the messenger as a boss is a bad thing. It has second and third order of effects and we don't want to make our -- we don't want our data to look suspect to the American people and people making decisions on economic matters.

MATTINGLY: We were talking before we came on just about the kind of the pressure on the organization in terms of funding cuts that they faced over the course of the years. I think there's also a proposal on the table to perhaps merge them with some of the data operations inside the Commerce Department as well right now. Would you like to see more funding go? You're a data guy. You make your decisions, your voting decisions, your analysis decisions of what you are seeing and the numbers of what you're hearing from your district. Is that a concern to you, the budget cuts and what that may -- the impact that may have on federal data?

BACON: I do think I should see the data before seeing that. I haven't seen how much the bureau has been reduced or what the proposals are, but we do need accurate data.

[18:15:04]

You know, heck, I'm reading a book on Stalin right now. They were putting out data back then on, you know, whether it's America or what the Soviet Union at the time, European countries, everything's based on data and you got to have accurate data. An interesting thing I find is Stalin didn't want accurate data. It was if you gave him accurate data, he would kill you. This isn't nothing like that, but we got to have vector data and we got to trust what's put out there.

And I would just say from my vantage point here in Nebraska, we're seeing a bit of a troubled economic mess, or right now it's a troubled time. And I'll say in Nebraska, the GDP here has decreased by 6 percent over the last year. And it's all about trade. It's all about getting corn and soybeans out the door. So, what I hear with, you know, weak jobs numbers, but we're sort of seeing that in Nebraska right now.

MATTINGLY: To that point, last one, before I let you go, in terms of, you know, I've talked to administration officials that say, look, tariffs are settled now. There shouldn't be uncertainty. This should help provide some clarity for any industry going forward. What's your -- when you talk to your constituents, particularly in the ag community right now, what do they see over the course of the next month or two?

BACON: Well, we just saw some new tariff numbers and come out last week, so I don't think it's been stabilized yet. You know, I'm a old school conservative. I like Milton Friedman. Free trade provides the best products at the best price, in the most efficient manner. Of course, it has to be fair trade. And I would agree with whether it's not fair trade, the president should try to correct that.

But doing tariffs against 80 different countries, I have a hard time accepting that as a sound strategy. I think in the end, the American consumer would be paying a lot more for the price of their goods, and we're already starting to see that because in the end, tariffs are attacks on consumers.

And so in Nebraska, while I hear from our Fortune 500 companies, I see it with our agriculture producers. We're losing sure the market right now. And that's going to affect jobs. It will have an effect on inflation. We're already seeing maybe a small uptick. But if the president sticks with these numbers, I think, over time, these 25 percent tariffs will be represented in the goods we buy from these countries.

And so I'm concerned about the strength of our economy and I've not -- in reading history, economic history, tariffs very seldom have brought good to our country. I mean, the last time the Republicans had supported something like this was in the 1930s of the Smoot-Hawley Act, and it turned out poorly. And I think the Republicans learned from it and have never supported tariffs since World War II, and that's where I'm at.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it was a hundred years ago. It was Smoot Hawley when the tariffs were last this high. Republican Congressman Don Bacon from Nebraska, I always appreciate your time, sir. Thanks so much.

BACON: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, the Texas governor has now ordered the arrest of Democratic lawmakers who skipped today's special session. I'll get reaction from the chair of the Democratic National Committee in just a moment. Stay with us.

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MATTINGLY: In our Politics Lead, a short while ago, Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordering the arrest of Democrats who refuse to show up for today's special House session. Texas Republicans, they're trying to move forward with their redistricting of the state's Congressional map, an effort to bolster Republicans' prospects of and retaining the House control or the control of the House in the 2026 midterms.

Joining me now the chair of the Democratic National Committee, Ken Martin. Mr. Chairman, I really appreciate your time. I want to start with the Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton vowed to hold Texas Democrats accountable, saying, quote, it's imperative that they be swiftly arrested, punished, and face the full force of law for turning their backs on the people of Texas. What's your response to that?

KEN MARTIN, CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, what I would say is, you know Donald Trump, Greg Abbott, Ken Paxton, they said they wanted a showdown, and guess what? That's exactly what they're getting a showdown. This is not the Democratic party of your grandfather, right, which would bring a pencil to a knife fight. We're bringing a knife to a knife fight. We're going to fight fire with fire, and we're going to do everything we can right now to stand up against this unconstitutional power grab by the Republicans, make no mistake about it. As Leader Wu said, if you want to come and get them, come and take it. We're ready.

MATTINGLY: When you say fire with fire, it seems like the outcome, at least if passed this precedent, for Democrats in this situation is they've got the votes. At some point they will move it forward, whether in this session or in a future session. So, when you say fight, fire with fire, are you talking about other Democratic states changing their maps?

MARTIN: Well, certainly, we're going to do everything we can right now to stop this map from moving forward in Texas. But let me tell you, if they enact this map and they actually pass this into law, I would expect Democratic governors to put every single option they can on the table to respond in kind. And let me tell you, I've had a lot of conversations with governors throughout this country, and they're ready to fight fire with fire as well.

Look, we can't be the only party that plays by the rules. We have to actually stand up right now and fight back right now because this isn't just about partisan politics. It's not about the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. This is about our Constitution. It's about our democracy. And it's going to require all of us in this moment to call it out for what it is. It's bullshit.

And someone needs to stand up and fight back. And guess what? That's the Democratic Party. I'm so proud of the decisions that those House Democrats in Texas made to flee the state. They're using the power that they have to stand up and fight, and I expect Democratic governors and other Democrats around the country to do the same.

MATTINGLY: What are the status of conversations? Presumably, the DNC would have a significant role in moving forward, if other states decide to change their maps or go forward and the effort to change their maps. That's complicated in places like New York, in places like California. Have you talked about organizationally what the DNC would need to do, financially, what the party would need to do if that goes forward?

[18:25:03]

MARTIN: Well, we're prepared to do whatever it takes, Phil. To be honest with you, we've had great conversations with folks in Texas, conversations with governors and others around the country. This party, and, frankly, Americans and people around the world understand what this is really about. This is truly much bigger than Texas. If they're able to get away with destroying Constitution, attacking voting rights and civil rights in this manner, what's next for this Republican Party? What's next for this authoritarian regime? We have to stop them right now on this, and we're going to do everything within our disposal using every single option we have to actually fight back.

MATTINGLY: What is the longer term kind of thought process in terms of building Democratic majorities in state houses going forward?

MARTIN: Well, it's exactly -- you know, look, if we're not willing to fight like hell for the things we believe in, then do we really believe in them at all? For us to win, again, we have to show the American people that not only are we authentic, but that we're willing to stand up to actually fight, to do everything we can to actually build this country the right way and actually deliver on the promises of a better future for Americans.

There's one party who's thrown that completely aside, Donald Trump and the Republicans who said they were actually going to make people's lives more affordable, who said they were going to actually create jobs. And guess what? They've done none of that.

And it shouldn't surprise anyone if Donald Trump is willing to actually fire his Bureau of Labor Statistics commissioner because he didn't like the number, clearly, they're going to be willing to do anything they can to hold onto power. And this is just another example of them rigging the system against the will of the American people.

MATTINGLY: Democratic National Committee Chairman Ken Martin, I appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.

MARTIN: Thank you, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Well, controversial far right activist Laura Loomer has no official Trump administration job, so why is she taking credit for a slew of recent high-profile firings inside the White House? New CNN reporting, next.

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MATTINGLY: In our Politics Lead, you are looking at live pictures out of Austin, Texas, where Democrats are leading a protest outside of Governor Greg Abbott's mansion. It is in response to Texas Republicans' Congressional redistricting plan in the Lone Star State, which would bolster Republicans prospects of retaining control of the United States House of Representatives.

Now, in the meantime, Texas Democrats now face civil arrests for refusing to show up at today's special house session, further blocking Republicans from moving forward with their redistricting plan.

My panel of experts joins me now. And, Chuck Rocha, I want to ask you what we just heard from the Democratic National Committee chair. Democrats have been looking for leadership, looking for somebody to fire them up. This is a moment they're clearly trying to seize on, capitalize on, on some level, not just in Texas, but on a state level. What was your sense of kind of the plan going forward?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: There's a been a big talk about what's the Democrat's message. And what I've been trying to tell Democrats is Donald Trump was onto something when he got elected, and I give him credit for this. He tapped into a frustration and anxiety around rigging the system. It's just one of many things, the border, and other things, but this rigging of the system is real, and nothing says rigging the system like trying to literally steal five seats in the middle of redistricting and bring it.

That's why they left Texas. They know they can't really stop it, but they want you and me to keep talking about them, trying to rig the system because it's real. And people don't like when the system is being rigged against the voters.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I take Chuck's point, but I got to say Democrats going to Illinois with their hands tied behind their backs seemed very weak and feckless in my opinion. And I think it's why there are a lot of voters, who are Democrats, who want to see the Democratic Party be stronger, have a solution to Trump, which that's to be expected, right? What is that solution? Where's the strength coming from the Democratic Party? You just interviewed the chair. And I saw the chair, and I got to be honest with you. This guy didn't inspire me, and I'm thinking, if this is who we're running against, we're going to kick your butts in midterms next year.

ROCHA: I'll tell you about kicking your butt when you're walking down the street and somebody comes up and sucker punches you and then you get up and whoop their butt, that's what the Democrats are doing right now, because we were just minding our own business, walking down the street. You all came to us.

I love Chuck's -- Chuck's politics are my favorite politics.

MATTINGLY: And purely apolitical but absolutely through the image that he presents. It just resonates, at least with an Ohioan.

Okay. Shermichael, I got to ask you. We had some great new reporting from my colleagues at CNN about Laura Loomer, far right activist, her influence within the Trump administration. Loomer says she recently spoke with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth about her work finding disloyal employees within the Pentagon and Defense Department spokesperson confirms the two spoke. She's already succeeded in getting several top. Trump officials fired. What's your read on all of this?

SINGLETON: Yes, look I think it's interesting and a lot of voters who are very ardent supporters of the president, they really like what Loomer is doing. Even though she's not in an official capacity, they like having someone who can advise the president on finding individuals and removing individuals who may object to his agenda because they want to see that agenda move forward. That's why he won not only Electoral College, but also the popular vote.

And so I think Loomer, as a very loyal supporter of the president, is playing this outside role the same as president. I'm going to make sure that whomever you decide to appoint will be people who have stood with you since day one. She's going to get a lot of support from the base, and that's why I think the president will continue to stand with her.

MATTINGLY: Well, like how do you feel about it?

SINGLETON: You know, I'm not bothered by it because if I was a president, I would want somebody to say, Shermichael, you shouldn't appoint this guy because this guy does not have your best interest, or this guy may have been critical of you in the past. I would at least want to say, well, I wasn't aware of that. Where do you stand today and how will that be problematic in your role moving forward?

ROCHA: Is that why you're being nice right now because you're afraid they'll come after you if you say something mean?

SINGLETON: I got a hundred-plus guns at my house. I'm not worried about anybody coming to my house.

MATTINGLY: I love this group. Okay, let's do this for the next 45 minutes. South Carolina governor's race, Nancy Mace, congresswoman just jumped in. What's your read on her?

ROCHA: You know, you all let me know ahead of time I was going to talk about her, and I did a little deep dive before I left, and was surprised about a few things, I did not know she was the first female to graduate from the Citadel.

[18:35:07]

And I also didn't know that one of her opponents is an attorney, a district attorney who's prosecuting her fiance for things that she went on the House floor and talked about. So, I think she's got a lot of motivations. Also, I've found out that the Freedom Caucus, Ralph Norman, is also running. This is going to be a free for all. Like if you want to get some popcorn and watch a Republican primary, I may move down there and just check it out for a little bit, because it's going to be cray-cray.

MATTINGLY: It is very old school, South Carolina.

SINGLETON: It is.

MATTINGLY: Republican politics.

SINGLETON: We can do that, though, take away from that advice from Democrats, we're going to do that, okay? Because if they listen to you, don't start, it might a problem.

MATTINGLY: What is your -- when you talk to Republicans get inside the party right now, as they're looking at South Carolina, like some I talk to are like, dude, I don't even want to talk.

SINGLETON: Yes. It's a mess. It's a mess. I mean, look, I think it's going to either go to the congressman or the lieutenant governor. I think there's not a big expectation from individuals that I've talked to in the state who know the state politics well that Nancy Mace. We'll see some type of a significant rise in the polls. She'll be a bit of a disruptor. She's very loud, provocative. She'll raise some money perhaps, increase her name I.D. further. But in terms of being a competitive candidate, I haven't spoken to a single person who actually believes that. So, it's more of a nuisance candidate.

ROCHA: And Donald Trump endorsement goes a long way here. Now, Donald Trump endorsement goes a long way in a primary like this. It'd be interesting to see where he falls on this thing.

MATTINGLY: It does a long way everywhere.

ROCHA: Absolutely.

MATTINGLY: Yes. No.

ROCHA: But in a red, red state, that's why I was mentioning it.

MATTINGLY: I have to ask, Marjorie Taylor Greene seems to be standing up against the Trump operation a little bit more lately. She said something, quote, I don't know if the Republican Party is leaving me or if I'm kind of not relating to the Republican Party as much anymore. I don't know which one it is. I think the Republican Party has turned its back on America first and the workers and just regular Americans.

It's interesting. I mean, she's been on the opposite side from some Israel issues, some funding issues. It's -- what do you make of --

SINGLETON: I think -- I'll be quick. I think it's healthy to have a disagreement within the party. Sometimes the expectation from outsider's perspective is that the Republican Party doesn't make room for those who may differ from the president. I think we want that disagreement. I think the president will be open to talking with the congresswoman about ways where we can improve the party further.

ROCHA: 2028. Excuse me, I'm sorry. 2028.

SINGLETON: Here you go.

ROCHA: That's just all I'm saying, That's a lot of money doing it. It sounds like she wants to run for president. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. That's what it --

SINGLETON: And who do you guys --

MATTINGLY: We're just going to manifest this one. You're going to try to manifest this one into the universe.

ROCHA: I got to defend Democrats all the time. You defend Marjorie Taylor Greene. Boom, take that.

MATTINGLY: I appreciate you both. Thank you for coming.

SINGLETON: That was good, man.

MATTINGLY: That was pretty, that was a good. I appreciate that. The ties look great on both of you, by the way. Up next, a remarkable survival story from the frontlines in the war in Ukraine, how Ukrainian forces used a drone and a bicycle to rescue one of their own who's badly wounded and stranded. Don't miss this.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

MATTINGLY: We are back with our World Lead. The White House today confirmed that U.S. Foreign Envoy Steve Witkoff will visit Russia on Wednesday. President Trump has given Russian President Vladimir Putin until the end of the week to reach a peace deal with Ukraine as the fighting rages on.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh shares this incredible story from the frontlines about the drone delivery, which saved a critically wounded soldier who thought he'd be left for dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This Russian assault, brutal. Even throwing landmines into the bunkers had left all three of his fellow soldiers dead in the trench next to him, and Andriy, with his leg wounded, unable to run thought like so many Ukrainian soldiers in tiny isolated positions pinned down by Russian drones that he was done.

ANDRIY, UKRAINIAN SOLDIER: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

WALSH: But back at his command bunker watching on drones, they had an idea. Maybe Andriy had the strength to cycle out. So, they attached an electric bicycle to a drone like this, moving it slowly, perilously in pieces to the front. It was dropped to Andriy hole, and then, remarkably, he cycled out.

ANDRIY: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

WALSH: The Ukrainians have tried to ensure the skies were free of Russian drones, but that wasn't enough. Andriy hit a landmine. The drone operator's heart sank. Had it all come to nothing? But then this tiny figure emerged limping out of the smoke, somehow alive, walking on his bandaged leg visible.

ANDRIY: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

WALSH: Greeted by a Ukrainian and helped into another bunker where he had to wait two more days for rescue.

Necessity is the mother of invention in Ukraine, but nothing can beat luck.

Nick Payton Walsh, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine. (END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Our thanks to Nick Paton Walsh for that remarkable report.

Well, our small business series takes us to South Carolina next where a mother and daughter started their company more than 11 years ago and now sell their hair products across the country. How tariffs impacted their business. Are they raising prices for consumers? We'll tell you. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:48:05]

MATTINGLY: We're back with our "Business Leaders" series, where we hear from small business owners from coast to coast about President Trump's tariffs.

Gabby Bows are the signature product of the company Confidence, a mother-daughter business that launched 11 years ago. Their patented hair barrette double clips to make sure it stays in girls' pigtails, braids and twists.

Founders Rozalynn and Gabby Goodwin join me now from Columbia, South Carolina.

I really appreciate you guys joining me.

Rozalynn, to start with you. Where do you manufacture Gabby Bows and how have the tariffs affected the business so far?

ROZALYNN GOODWIN, CO-FOUNDER, CONFIDENCE BY GABBY GOODWIN: Well, Gabby Bows have been manufactured in China since we started 11 years ago. We started 11 years ago trying to source in America, and have tried unsuccessfully for the last eight years because it just is not cost effective to manufacture plastic type products, like our anti-slip guaranteed to stay in Gabby Bow.

MATTINGLY: Gabby, how --

R. GOODWIN: And impacted us so much that we've had to cancel manufacturing orders.

MATTINGLY: Gabby, can you -- the pressure of that the stress kind of going through that, especially a business that you guys have found created looks darn impressive. The video that we're showing right now, that moment for you and your mom right now.

GABBY GOODWIN, CO-FOUNDER, CONFIDENCE BY GABBY GOODWIN: Yeah. It definitely was stressful in the moment to be able to get news of such a high uptick in tariffs, especially in a really big opportunity for us to be able to go into retail. We had had a manufacturing order put in place for us to provide new inventory for a new retailer that we will be launching in next month.

And as soon as we put that order in, we saw that the tariffs were up almost 175 percent, and that was very nerve racking for us. It costs -- the tariff cost way more than the order itself.

[18:50:01]

So, it was a little stressful at first. But, of course, we have learned to pivot in these past 11 years and have been able to successfully fulfill the order with our existing inventory, but it definitely did take a dent on the plans that we had.

MATTINGLY: I mean, as experienced as you guys may have been over the last 11 years, that level of agility I can't fathom you ever imagined having to have. Rozalynn, how did you pivot? Have -- you had to raise prices? How were you thinking about going forward?

R. GOODWIN: Well, we have a low price product and we cannot pass on that price increase to our consumer. Luckily, we had existing inventory that we could fulfill our first purchase order. But we have three purchase orders for this amazing dream retailer that we're launching in 876 stores next month. So, after we feel this first purchase order, were not sure that well have enough inventory for the remaining purchase orders.

So, you know, we remain hopeful that there will be some type of resolution that does not close and bankrupt small businesses and prevent businesses like ours from really realizing their dreams as far as growth and scale.

MATTINGLY: Gabby, to that point, if you had a message that you could convey to policymakers, White House officials, members of Congress, what would it be?

G. GOODWIN: Yes, I would say to keep in mind that a lot of businesses are really being able to fund the American Dream or creating the American Dream. They're being independent. They're going after their passions and their goals and their dreams and things such as tariffs and tariffs that have been put in place through policy are really putting a dark cloud, I would say, over those dreams and not really allowing them to be able to be fully realized and considered, especially for a lot of smaller businesses like ours, product based businesses, people who or products or businesses who are creating products for people to continue to use.

And it has become harder for us to be able to continue to produce those products. And so I would just say to really be able to keep in mind all the people that are continuing to really energize the economy through their businesses and through their ingenuity and really hoping to see kind of a difference in being able to find peace throughout the world as well.

MATTINGLY: You can find Gabby Bows online. I urge you to go find them. Based just on the video we were just watching right there as a remarkable product.

Rozalynn. Gabby Goodwin, really appreciate you guys' time. Thank you.

R. GOODWIN: Thank you so much.

G. GOODWIN: Thank you so much.

MATTINGLY: Well, you know him best from Star Trek. Now, George Takei is getting personal in his new graphic memoir. And he's sitting down with Jake Tapper. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:57:03]

MATTINGLY: In our pop lead, actor George Takei is best known for his role as Sulu in Star Trek.

And over the last few decades, he's also become well known for his work as an activist.

Jake Tapper recently spoke to him about his new graphic memoir, "It Rhymes with Takei", which gives readers an insight into both Takei's personal life and political activism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE TAKEI, ACTOR: I have been closeted most of my life. Two different kinds of closet. When I was a child, five years old, we were imprisoned in the very real U.S. barbed wire fence internment camps.

After the war, and we were released, and I was about 9 or 10 years old, I was discovering that. I was different in ways more than just my Japanese face. I thought Bobby was really cute. He had a sweet smile.

I was attracted to other boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain's log USS Excelsior. Hikaru Sulu, commanding.

TAKEI: So, I spent most of my adult life invisible, imagine barbed wire fence, until I was 58 years old. That's very late in life. And that's when I decided I'm not going to do that. And I came out.

May equality live long and prosper.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Your book about life in an internment camp, "They Called Us Enemy", was critically acclaimed, a bestseller.

Why did you choose to tell this story in that same format?

TAKEI: I was fascinated by the comic books, visual storytelling, and I discovered that they appealed to people that didn't like to read as well. I decided I'm going to do it in that form so I can have a lot of people reading about this even this late.

If I was to be an actor, I had to remain closeted. I felt vulnerable. I knew I was different.

My Buddhist upbringing had taught me to accept all parts of myself and be a part of society. But I had to protect my secret. When Star Trek began, I had been pursuing my own career ambitions. I

wasn't seeking to become an emblematic image, but being of Asian descent, I knew the responsibilities that came with my career choice.

The phrase "coming out" suggests that you open a door and you step out. It isn't that simple. It's a lifelong process.

The narrow corridors widen a bit. And finally, the will to grab that doorknob and step out for combat and see what's on the other side.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: George Takei's new book, "It Rhymes With Takei", is out now.

You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of the lead, you can listen to the show wherever you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.