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The Lead with Jake Tapper
DOJ Releases Audio, Transcript Of Maxwell Prison Interview; FBI Conducts Hours-Long Search At John Bolton's Home & Office; Powell Hints At Rate Cut Due To Labor Market Conditions; Evolving Medical Guidance On High Blood Pressure. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired August 22, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Thank you all for being here, to my panel. Phil Mattingly, on this August Friday evening, we gift you a giant ton of breaking news.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
BASH: You're welcome.
MATTINGLY: Never a dull moment these days.
BASH: Have a great show.
MATTINGLY: Dana, have a great weekend. We'll look for more next week in "The arena."
[17:00:35]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. And let's get straight to the breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead. Just a short while ago, the Justice Department released a transcript and audio of its recent interview with convicted sex trafficker and Jeffrey Epstein's associate, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, this is from a two-day hours long interview Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche conducted with Maxwell last month.
In the transcript, Maxwell talked about President Trump's friendship with Epstein, Epstein's suicide, the millions of dollars found in her accounts. Maxwell also denied ever recruiting a woman from Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate and criticized the testimony from an underage victim who testified against her. This and much, much more.
Combing further through these transcripts for us is CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Katelyn Polantz.
Katelyn, let's start with what Maxwell said about President Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Phil, she's asked about Donald Trump several times in this interview with Todd Blanche that took place one month ago. And Jeff -- Ghislaine Maxwell says that she absolutely never, in any context, saw or heard of anything inappropriate done by Donald Trump. Here's a little bit more from the audio recording of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHISLAINE MAXWELL, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN ASSOCIATE: I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don't -- I don't think they were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the president in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLANTZ: Now recall, this is an extraordinary interview, Phil, in that Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted defendant of sex trafficking of minors, is speaking to the deputy attorney general, number two in the Justice Department, very unusual. At a time where she's still appealing her sentence, this moment where she's talking Todd Blanche, it is under an immunity agreement where she is not allowed to lie or else the Justice Department could theoretically choose to use her statements in court. She also is telling Blanche that she admires Trump very much. It's very complimentary. She says I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the president.
Now the Justice Department, even though they are offering her immunity in this situation, Blanche is very clear to her he's making her no promises and not giving her any benefits necessarily. Although Ghislaine Maxwell was transferred from a low security prison where there would be violent offenders around her to a prison camp in Texas shortly after this interview took place. A camp, the minimal security that the prison system offers.
MATTINGLY: Yes. Still a lot of questions about that. I do want to say up front. I also want to ask, though, Maxwell weighed in on Epstein's death by suicide, ruled by suicide, reiterated that it was a suicide by Trump administration officials as well. What did you say?
POLANTZ: Phil, she's got speculation there. She says pretty clearly she does not believe the position of the Justice Department, the federal government, that Epstein hanged himself in jail in 2019 when he was in federal custody. Here is more of the audio clip of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: I do not believe he died by suicide, no.
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: And do you believe that -- do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
MAXWELL: I -- no, I don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLANTZ: So potential there, Phil, that could fuel some conspiracy theories. Although a reminder that Attorney General Bill Barr, who was the attorney general at that time in 2019 when both Epstein and Maxwell were being charged or investigated and Epstein did kill himself, Barr says that there was no foul play, he did not believe there was foul play and that he did believe that Epstein hanged himself. That just happened on Monday when Barr was speaking to the House Oversight Committee in a deposition. Some other things that Ghislaine Maxwell said in this interview that are important to note, she also said there's no client list. That was another area of conspiracy theory for some time now.
[17:05:06]
Was there a client list the Justice Department was not releasing of Jeffrey Epstein? There has been a contact book that came out during Ghislaine Maxwell's trial of people he knew, but no client list unequivocally, Ghislaine Maxwell says to Todd Blanche last month.
MATTINGLY: I believe it's 337 pages, hours of recording. Katelyn, I know you and the team have already been doing tremendous work. Anything else you find, please let us know. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.
Well, joining us now, former state and federal prosecutor Elie Honig.
Elie, I want to start kind of your -- based on your experience, your read of the transcript, at least up to this point, is this a credible interview?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, my gosh, no, Phil. I mean, I'm -- most of the way through the transcript, now I've been relying on Katelyn's reporting, but in this transcript, Ghislaine Maxwell provides a simply bizarre worldview with wherein almost nobody did anything wrong. She doesn't even actually implicate Jeffrey Epstein. When she's asked about the crimes that Jeffrey Epstein's been convicted of, or excuse me, charged with, he died before he could go to trial, she basically says, I don't have any knowledge of this. I suspect maybe he did some of it but nothing that I know about.
Ghislaine Maxwell herself maintains that she is absolutely 100 percent innocent and she also essentially implicates nobody else in any type of criminal conduct. So, if one believes that worldview, fine, then maybe Ghislaine Maxwell is credible. I certainly do not. I find it impossible to believe her account of things.
MATTINGLY: One of the things that's striking in the account, much of the transcript shows Maxwell struggling to remember parts of her decades long relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: And then I believe, or I don't remember. I think I got a phone call actually. I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was police at his house or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: There was also a lot of praise for President Trump in this transcript. Did anything in that sense surprise you of what you've seen?
HONIG: Well, in contrast to the clip you just played, there also are several sections of the transcript where Ghislaine Maxwell goes on for pages and pages about romantic relationships between members of high society and financiers and details that are pretty much irrelevant, that nobody cares about, that have nothing to do with the actual trafficking of children. So, yes, there are times when she seems to go blank and there are times when she seems to have a lot of recall about things that really don't matter.
MATTINGLY: It's a Friday afternoon in August, which I think has something to do with the timing of the release here. But what does the release, the decision to release this tell you about what DOJ may do next here?
HONIG: So it tells me they're going to do nothing next with respect to actually making criminal cases. And, Phil, I said from the start the fact that DOJ is even considering releasing this transcript, which they now have done, that in itself is a tell. Because if you were planning to ever make new criminal cases based on Ghislaine Maxwell's information, releasing her transcript like they've just done is the last thing you would ever do. It would tip off your potential targets. It would tip off your investigative methods.
And beyond that, Phil, as I just said, I'm actually surprised to see she doesn't even implicate anybody. I mean, even if a juror was to take everything in this transcript as true, there would be nobody else to charge or convict with anything. Yet another reason why I'm just not buying this.
MATTINGLY: Is there a chance that Maxwell could get a reduced sentence because of this?
HONIG: There's a couple chances. So, first of all, she still has an appeal pending. She's trying to get the U.S. Supreme Court to take her case. It's unlikely, but it's possible. She also could receive what's called a Rule 35 letter from the Justice Department.
That's when a prosecutor goes to her judge after sentencing, where we are now, and says, I'd like you to reduce her sentence. That's up to DOJ whether they want to make that motion. But finally, she could get a pardon or a commutation as Katelyn Polantz said, she's absolutely playing for that. She goes out of her way to praise Donald Trump, talk about what a gentleman and a wonderful person he is. I think we can see why.
MATTINGLY: Elie Honig, invaluable resources always, my friend. Thanks so much.
HONIG: Thanks, Phil. MATTINGLY: I want to bring in James Marsh. He's an attorney who represented several Epstein victims. One of them is Maria Farmer, who says both Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell assaulted her 30 years ago.
James, I want to start with -- you told us last time you were here that your victims want transparency. They want accountability. Do you think this goes in any direction toward accomplishing that?
JAMES MARSH, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING EPSTEIN VICTIMS: Well, that's a good question. I mean, certainly we are, you know, happy that they've released this. Obviously, not releasing it just feeds the rumor and speculation that has been around Jeffrey Epstein for decades. And so it's a good thing that has been released along with the audio tape. But I've been trying to lower expectations about this transcript and the so called DOJ records for weeks now, because what we've seen historically over decades is pretty much similar to what we're seeing in the Maxwell transcript, which is she has a really good recall of his finances, the deals that he was involved in, intricate details of the people that he knew.
[17:10:14]
But when it comes to the controversial things about this case, the underage sex trafficking, the possible links to intelligence, how Jeffrey Epstein got all of his money, power and influence, she's a little bit more vague and very studied in her responses. And that is not a surprise given the position that she's in. She's sort of damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. If she tells the full truth, everything she absolutely knows about Jeffrey Epstein, the public is not going to view her in good light. And certainly she's got these cases on appeal. She's trying to get a commutation, I'm sure.
She's trying to get a reduction in her sentence or an outright pardon. So this was probably about the best we could get for her under those circumstances.
MATTINGLY: You know, one of the names that people have raised a lot in terms of wanting more information, you being an individual who has raised this issue, is Alex Acosta, the U.S. attorney in Miami that negotiated the secret sweetheart deal with Epstein back in 2008. That agreement allowed Epstein to avoid federal charges. I want to play a part of the interview where Maxwell references Maria Villafana, who was the lead prosecutor in the Epstein case and was pursuing an indictment. Brad Edwards is an attorney who also represented Epstein victims and CVRA, which you're going to hear in this clip, stands for the Crime Victim Rights Act. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: The reason why I know that she went behind Acosta's back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast, made the revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before and Villefana called him and told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: Can you explain what Maxwell is referencing here?
MARSH: So the Crime Victims Rights Act gives victims of federal crimes, especially crimes such as these, the right to notification, notification of the crimes, a right to participate in the proceedings and have their voice heard. So there was quite a bit of litigation around this issue, spearheaded by my friend and colleague Paul Cassell, who's a victim rights advocate, on whether or not the victims received the proper notice before the FBI and the Justice Department agree to the non prosecution agreement. So this is what she's referring to.
And it became quite a big issue that the victims were not given notification in advance. They were not given their rights, and it resulted in almost a decade of litigation around that issue.
MATTINGLY: There are still a lot of questions about Alex Acosta in general. We'll see what comes of that in the weeks and months ahead.
James Marsh, always appreciate your time. Thanks so much.
MARSH: Thanks for having me on in your coverage.
MATTINGLY: Well, our teams are continuing to go through the transcripts, the audio of this interview between Ghislaine Maxwell and Deputy Attorney Todd Blanche. We have much more ahead.
But first, with suicide behind such a sensitive issue in this story, we do want to mention the national suicide and crisis lifeline. Call or text 988. It's open 247 with counselors standing by if you or someone you know needs help saving a life.
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[17:17:35]
MATTINGLY: We're back with our breaking news in our politics lead. The justice department released a transcript and the audio of its interview with convicted sex trafficker and Jeffrey Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell. I want to get straight to CNN's Kristen Holmes in the north lawn of the White House with new reporting.
Kristen, were actually talking about this earlier today before we knew this was coming out this afternoon. Take us inside the debate at the White House on whether or not to release this.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And Phil, it makes perfect sense that today is the day they would release it. So let's backtrack. We know that the White House has been discussing whether or not release the audio and the transcripts from this interview for weeks now. This was their way of trying to get ahead of the story.
They'd been on the defense for a number of weeks. They were getting attacked by their own base and they were promising transparency. So part of that was this idea of whether or not they were going to release this audio and these transcripts. As that debate went on, there were still members of the administration who were not all on the same page, even when it came to the transcripts of what should be released, when it should be released. And those conversations were ongoing.
The White House wanted to have buy in from all of the principals, all of the people that have to do with the Epstein case that would include the FBI and the Department of Justice, among other agencies. So this started to become tabled. Well, it really became tabled when they start saw a clip on CNN talking about how the searches for the Epstein case had gone down dramatically. And I was told that was sent around from White House staffers to one another basically saying this case is out of the mainstream right this second. Why would we reinsert oxygen into a story that we really don't want to keep talking about?
Well, of course today that story was already going to be somewhat dominating because of the fact that we know the Department of Justice has was essentially handing everything over to the House Oversight Committee. So within that they ended up releasing those today from the Justice Department. But there was a lot of thought, a lot of conversation as to when to put these out. The other thing to note, they wanted to be very careful with victims' names, making sure those were bleeped out as well as redacted because they heard new information from Maxwell on that, Phil.
MATTINGLY: Kristen Holmes from the White House, thanks so much.
I want to bring in Democratic strategist Karen Finney and Republican strategist Kevin Sheridan. Appreciate you sharing the slow Friday.
Kevin, I want to start with the point that Kristen was making where this seemed to have kind of faded away. There's a million other things going on right now. I think the Trump administration was very happy with kind of the D.C. federal police takeover story, which they've highlighted, of course, over the course of the last couple of days. Why do this? Why release it at all?
[17:20:08]
KEVIN SHERIDAN, FORMER RNC SPOKESMAN: On a Friday afternoon? Yes, look, this is going to please no one. You know, there's everything from these -- in this -- in these audio tapes that says Bill Clinton had nothing to do with going to Epstein Island to Donald Trump had nothing -- never did anything inappropriate. She doesn't get into any kind of intelligence connections which the MAGA crowd really wants to hear. This is just going to add more fuel to the fire that there's just not -- we're just not getting the answers that we want to get.
And I don't know what answers are even gettable at this point. I don't know what more documents are in there. Keep -- people keep talking about the Epstein files. Do we know there's more? How much is there?
MATTINGLY: No, I think it's a great question. It's kind of the karmic wonder of this moment. The Trump guys find themselves in where you promise a lot of things. And maybe the underpinning of this is they aren't actually there. KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, but the truth of it is, if you go back, I mean, there were hundreds of people who were actually involved in this endeavor. There were, you know, people who drove these women around. There were pilots, there were chefs, there were maids, there were -- of all these different properties that he had, none of those people, by the way, have been questioned. So, I mean, this could go literally on for years. I think there's plenty of there.
I actually think, though, this question about whether or not Trump is in there is kind of a red herring. Obviously it matters, right? At the same time, it's about all of the powerful men who are in there who have a stake in this not coming out. And so I suspect that when Trump and his administration are trying to protect, they're not just trying to protect him, I think there is a mutually assured destruction element to this that we, you know, when you follow the money, I think we would learn a lot more. And that's really, I think, the crux of it.
It's less about the files, I think it's more about the financial records.
MATTINGLY: Kevin, I want to play something that the President said just a few hours before this was released in the Oval Office today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STAES: The whole Epstein thing is a Democrat hoax. So we had the greatest six months, seven months in the history of the presidency, and the Democrats don't know what to do so they keep bringing up that stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: I think what's interesting to me about this is it's the base of the president that has really kind of driven this. Deeply believed in it, I think, without question. And I think the most interesting part about this whole process has been, I've never seen that base turn against the president or be frustrated with him up to this point, particularly when he says, you're all idiots, stop. Do you think that's going to work? Like, is this going to go away, or is there, like, an electoral political consequence?
SHERIDAN: It's a great test. The online crowd that cares deeply about this issue wants to hear more about the intel connections that they believe exist. They want to hear about the blackmail operation they believe exists. And they are pushing and pushing and pushing. I don't know how big of a group that is, though, and I don't think they're ever going to give it up.
But whether or not electorally it matters, like, they're not going to go vote Democrat, but they may stay home in an election.
MATTINGLY: Karen, what's your sense of, like, my kind of -- it seemed like Democrats were just bringing this up to mess with him on some point on a regular basis, like they are for disclosure but this was more just because they knew it bothered him. Does this -- they drop this, or they keep bringing this up in the place of issues?
FINNEY: Here's part of what's changed, you know, certainly I think when -- initially, when it was clear that this was creating a fracture with his base, it was intriguing. But now you have the victims coming forward, some of whom have been interviewed, some of whom are speaking through their lawyers, and you were just talking with one of them, who -- and now they're engaged and they're saying, we want the records out, we want the truth out there. Many of them are afraid for their own safety, as they see kind of this jockeying. So I think that's a piece that really shifted. And it's one of those things where, you know, Trump's own supporters said, you told us to care about this, and now you're saying, forget about it.
Well, no, we still care. And this is where, I think from a communications and strategic framework, it got away from them, right? Like, it was a great device during the campaign. But then when you're in office, people expect you to deliver the goods, and now you're not. But there's a whole group of people you can't control who are now coming forward. And I think that's putting pressure, frankly, both on Republicans and Democrats --
MATTINGLY: Yes.
FINNEY: -- why I don't think it's going away.
MATTINGLY: Especially when they've done just about everything else he campaigned on up to this point, except this one thing. You're wired in the party of no Republicans on the Hill, in particular in campaigns over the course of many, many years, not that we're old, congressional Republicans who really drove this kind of towards the end before recess, are they going to let this one go?
SHERIDAN: Mostly. You've heard a few of them stay on it, but I think they want to get beyond it. They want to talk about other things. They don't want to be running on this in going into the midterms. They've got other things to talk about.
So I think most of them will be quiet and follow Donald Trump's lead, because that's what they do on every other issue.
MATTINGLY: That's exactly what I was going to say. Kevin Sheridan, Karen Finney, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
FINNEY: Thank you.
[17:24:57]
MATTINGLY: One other major story today, the FBI searching the home and the office of vocal Trump critic John Bolton, the president's former national security advisor. The new details gathered by CNN's justice team on that investigation. That's next.
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MATTINGLY: In our Law and Justice Lead, the FBI conducted an hours long raid of former Trump national security Adviser John Bolton's home and office today. The sources tell CNN it's part of an investigation into whether he disclosed classified information in his 2020 book. Here's Trump when he was asked about this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know about it. I saw it on television this morning. I'm not a fan of John Bolton. He's a real sort of a low life.
I purposely don't want to really get involved in it. I'm not a fan of John Bolton. I thought he was a sleazebag actually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Now, just before the FBI showed up, Bolton lobbed fresh criticism at Trump's approach to securing a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine, tweeting, quote, "meetings will continue because Trump wants a Nobel Peace Prize, but I don't see these talks making any progress." Remember, this feud goes way back. Trump fired Bolton via tweet in 2019, mostly due to disagreements over Bolton's hawkish foreign policy style. Bolton said he left on his own accord.
[17:30:17]
In 2020, Bolton published a book titled "The Room Where It Happened," and it was a scathing review of his time in Trump's orbit, deeming the President, quote, unfit for the job. Following that publication, Trump said Bolton, quote, should be in jail. Trump's attorney general at the time opened a criminal investigation into whether Bolton divulged classified information.
In 2021, then-President Biden closed it without charges. Listen to Bolton tell Jake Tapper about the book in January this year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER DONALD TRUMP: The book went through a four-month-long pre-publication review to make sure there was no classified information in the book. That's been explained in court documents. Donald Trump didn't like the book because it was critical of him, and it came out in June of 2020. That is an assault on free speech, pure and simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Now, that interview was conducted right after Trump revoked Bolton's security clearance and his security detail deemed necessary after an assassination attempt by Iran. CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez is here.
And Evan, you were outside Bolton's house earlier today. What are your sources at DOJ and the FBI telling you about what's happening here?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are going back to the -- the process that John Bolton submitted for that book, the process that -- that reviews whether there's any classified information. And if you go back and look at some of the -- some of the -- the documents and some of the filings in that case, Phil, what you see is that John Bolton did go through the process, but at some point he decided that it was his decision that there wasn't any -- there -- there wasn't any classified documents in there.
So he didn't really wait for a final approval. It appears he wanted the book out before the 2020 election. And so that's where the crux of this lies. The question is, you know, as a national security advisor, as somebody who signed papers when he took the job, agreeing to submit any book that he does to this process, did he actually do that? And so that's where I think you're going to see, I think prosecutors and FBI agents looking through e-mails and whatever documents and -- and -- and thumb drives they may have found in the house today. That's what's is -- that -- that's what's going to be the heart of this investigation.
MATTINGLY: Can I ask, just, you know, following on social media today, as you and the team were reporting this out, top Trump administration officials alluding to this not so subtly. I think in some cases before, like right as the news was breaking here, what's behind that?
PEREZ: Look, I know we keep saying what unusual times we live in, but that is so out of the ordinary, right? It is not normal for the FBI director, for the deputy FBI director, and for the President really, and the Vice President, to be commenting on an investigation, even while the FBI was in there. They were in there for seven and a half hours. And we were watching all of this unfold, and you're hearing some of this commentary from these officials.
And so what it does raise the question of is whether or not this is part of the retribution agenda, right? Which is what Bolton is going to, I'm sure, when we finally hear from him, he is going to say that that's what this is all -- all about. The question now is, what happens next? Do they go to a grand jury and try to get an indictment of John Bolton over this matter from 2020? Did they find new evidence that could support such a case? We will find out. And that's going to be coming, I assume, in the next few weeks.
MATTINGLY: Yes. Busy time for a Justice Department reporter like yourself. Evan Perez, thanks so much.
Well, joining us now, CNN senior political commentator, former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. Congressman, first, we want to note, we don't know as to -- as of this hour whether Bolton actually has classified info in his house or office. But you posted today, quote, so by pretending there is some major violation by Bolton regarding classified, they are also admitting that what Trump did was a major violation then. Do you think the president's base will see it that way?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, of course not. I mean, he -- he literally can do nothing wrong. And -- and this is a message to his base. This is, you know, he's promised retribution. He's, I mean, think about this, the guy's reelected president. Congratulations. I mean, a huge feat for him. And he is just consumed with this idea of retribution. I mean, I don't know how much something's missing there, you know, in his -- in his soul to have to continually go after that. And so, yes, I think -- I think clearly what we're saying is that this is a -- this is politically motivated. It's obviously focused on that. And, you know, when the President says that it's a witch hunt because he had classified information that, by the way, he moved and the FBI tried for a year to get ahold of, and then they do this and go after him, it's -- it's clear that, look, there's an issue there.
MATTINGLY: Can I just personally, the President's gone after you, his supporters have gone after you, especially for your role in the January 6th committee. What do you think about when you see something like that for you personally?
[17:35:11]
KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, look, it's -- it's not something I would relish, you know, being targeted, but at the same time, what did I do? I did my job as a U.S. Congressman on a committee that was investigating a very serious issue. And so, look, if they want to harass me, and this is the point, what they're doing with John Bolton is harassment.
Now, is it legal? Sure, they got a court order, but it's harassment. And the message that they're sending is, to anybody else, we're -- we can make your life rough. You know, we even have to say on here, well, we don't fully know what evidence they have. They may have nothing. But that's what this kind of thing does.
So, look, if they come after me, I would just double down and say, look, I believe in, you know, my job as a U.S. Congressman. I believe in the investigation we did. And I will not shy away, because shying away is how you allow our justice system to be basically destroyed.
MATTINGLY: I wanted to get your reaction to something the President said earlier today when he was asked about this search. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What do you have to do? I tell them and I tell the group, I don't want to know, but just, you have to do what you have to do. I don't want to know about it. It's not necessary. I could know about it. I could be the one starting it. I'm actually the chief law enforcement officer. But I feel that it's better this way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: What -- what do you make of that?
KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, first off, I absolutely think he did know. You know, for him to make the comment then that he could do this, you know, obviously he has to -- to try to flex his muscle. But, you know, I mean, it's, look, when Kash Patel, you know, uses the language, nobody is above the law, which was basically the same language used when Trump was indicted, that's clear that it's making a point. Pam Bondi, her comment, what she made, look, she had said early on that her job is to be the lawyer for the President. It's not -- it's not justice. It's lawyer for the President. And so these decisions, obviously, I mean, look, can I prove that they made the, you know, that Trump knew? No. Can I prove anything? No. But I think we all pretty much know that this is a message. And -- and honestly, if you look at like X or read any of that stuff, his supporters are -- they -- they're aware it's a message and they're pretty happy about it.
MATTINGLY: Yes, well, no, there's no question about that. He promised it on the campaign trail. You can definitely acknowledge that fact. Former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, really appreciate your time, sir. Thanks so much.
KINZINGER: Sure.
MATTINGLY: Well, the record finish for the Dow today has embattled Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, while hints at rate cuts, which could be a huge inflection point for the U.S. economy. What that could mean for your money. That's next.
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[17:42:11]
MATTINGLY: In our Money Lead, a record finish today for the Dow and the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ, also making gains after a consequential keynote speech from Fed Chair Jerome Powell who hinted interest rate cuts could be on the horizon due to labor market conditions. Now, today's event was a split screen of sorts, unintentionally marking a potentially historic inflection point for the central bank. As it bases President Trump's continued pressure campaign against Powell and the entire Board of Governors.
A Justice Department official has signaled a probe into Biden- appointed Fed Governor Lisa Cook over mortgage fraud allegations. Trump now says he'll fire Cook if she doesn't resign. Cook denies any wrongdoing and says she won't step down.
I want to bring in CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich. Vanessa, on the Powell speech, what else did he say that stood out to you?
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the big takeaway was that interest rate cuts could be on the horizon and you saw investors just loving that today. The Dow finally notching that record in 2025, closing up 846 points.
And now, investors are pricing in that rate cut to come as soon as September, 90 percent of investors believe a rate cut is coming in September. That is up from just a month ago when 58 percent of investors believe that a rate cut was on the horizon.
Now, this speech was really an opportunity to get into the mind of Jerome Powell and to understand how he sees the economy. He said that tariffs are very much having an impact on prices. He also said that the labor market is in an unusual or curious spot right now where there's both a lack of supply and demand for workers.
And he also said that interest rates has, excuse me, that inflation has been steady but is still above the Fed's 2 percent target level. Take a listen to a little bit more of what Powell said about the economy and then that possible rate cut.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE: This year, the economy has faced new challenges. Significantly higher tariffs across our trading partners are remaking the global trading system. Tighter immigration policy has led to an abrupt slowdown in labor force growth. There is significant uncertainty about where all of these policies will eventually settle and what their lasting effects on the economy will be.
Nonetheless, with policy in restrictive territory, the baseline outlook and the shifting balance of risks may warrant adjusting our policy stance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YURKEVICH: Phil, you talked about that split screen. So we had Jerome Powell speaking in Jackson Hole, Wyoming at the same time that President Trump was speaking to reporters. He said that he would fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook if she did not resign. She is one of 12 people who vote on what to do with interest rates.
She, for her part, has said that she will gather the appropriate information to answer any questions there. It looks like there is a DOJ probe that is about to get underway into whether or not she committed mortgage fraud. For her part, she says there's no wrongdoing, Phil.
[17:45:11]
MATTINGLY: Vanessa, I'm really glad you're here because you're so brilliant at explaining what these types of things mean for everyday Americans. We all talk about kind of the broader macroeconomic discussion when it comes to rate cuts. What would a September rate cut mean for people's pocketbooks?
YURKEVICH: It would lower borrowing costs. So you're talking about interest rates on student loans, car loans, credit cards, and, of course, mortgage rates. Mortgage rates have been really sort of out of reach for many Americans, and it would potentially bring some Americans off the sidelines, and they'd be able to buy homes for the first time.
But I do want to say, Phil, that this September rate cut is not set in stone. There's still a lot of economic data that the Federal Reserve has to parse through before the September meeting, including a jobs report and including inflation data for both consumers and producers. If the job market heats up and inflation heats up, Phil, that could pour cold water on this potential for a rate cut. Phil?
MATTINGLY: Such a critical point amid the exuberance, which --
YURKEVICH: Yes.
MATTINGLY: -- may become irrational at some point. Vanessa Yurkevich, as always my friend, thanks so much.
YURKEVICH: Thanks.
MATTINGLY: Well, around the same time today when the Justice Department dropped its audio of the interview with Epstein associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, the House Oversight Committee says it also received DOJ documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. A key member of that committee will join me with his insight into all of it, ahead.
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[17:50:41]
MATTINGLY: In our Health Lead, yesterday, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta explored the latest medical science behind heart health and blood pressure. Today, he's back to answer questions submitted by viewers like you.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks for coming back. Let's start with the first question. It comes from Cherie McCormick in Texas, who asked, is there any way to lower blood pressure without medication?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The answer is yes. Absolutely. In fact, you know, if you look at these guidelines, what they say, Phil, is if you have been diagnosed with hypertension, for the first three to six months, you should really lean into lifestyle changes before you really consider medication. So, that is the primary advice.
And there's all sorts of things you can do. I mean, one of the things you can see on the screen there is -- is talking about diet. That's probably where you're going to make your biggest impact overall, fruits, vegetables, low-fat foods. But also, you know, it's really interesting. People use salt in their food.
That's associated with blood pressure. They know that. Salt is sodium chloride. One of the things in the guidelines was you could substitute potassium chloride for sodium chloride. That could give you some of the same flavor benefits if you want. But also, when you give potassium, you actually cause the body to excrete sodium.
So, you're getting your potassium and you're lowering your sodium sort of at the same time. So, that was, I think, an interesting sort of piece of guidance. Also, when it comes to cardiovascular exercise, one way to think about this, you know, doing aerobic exercise, you make your heart stronger, so it takes less effort for your heart to pump blood through the body and that lowers your blood pressure.
And you also heard, Phil, one of the recommendations was now no alcohol, complete abstinence from alcohol if you're trying to overall lower blood pressure. So, lots of things you can do before you potentially go to medication.
MATTINGLY: Over to James Olean from New York who asks, how often should we be checking blood pressure and what method is best?
GUPTA: Yes, so, you know, one thing you can do is you can use a blood pressure cuff at home. I mean, that -- that's something that people do. You don't have to just go to the doctor's office. The blood pressure cuffs at home are generally pretty good now.
You should do it a couple times a day but whenever you're doing it, do it at the same time. So, if you do it once in the morning, once in the evening, try and do it at the same time and follow those trends. Look at the screen there.
These are some good guidelines for how you take your blood pressure. First of all, do it over your bare skin. If you're doing it over your clothing, that's going to artificially raise your blood pressure.
Keep your back supported, so do it in a chair when you can actually sit up against something. That'll actually give you a more accurate reading. Put your feet flat on the ground. Don't let them dangle. Don't cross your legs. Those things will artificially inflate your blood pressure.
And also, when you think about that cuff, wherever it is, you want your arms supported but also the cuff at the level of your heart. That's going to give you the most accurate reading. But look, you -- you got to do this. A lot of people don't have any symptoms, Phil, with high blood pressure.
So, checking it at home even, it's a really good way to sort of start to get control of this.
MATTINGLY: Yes, and an easy way as well at least to understand what's going on. Next question's from Kate, who asks, what can I do about white coat high blood pressure?
GUPTA: Yes, so, white coat high blood pressure or white coat hypertension, it's called. It's a really interesting phenomenon. Basically, it means that when you're at home, your blood pressure may be OK. As soon as you show up at the doctor's office, your blood pressure goes up. White coat hypertension. Usually, it's due to anxiety and being in the doctor's office.
It may be because you're nervous about seeing the doctor. So, finding a doctor you're comfortable with. Hopefully, I'm not causing white coat hypertension for people. Getting to your doctor's appointment a few minutes early. You know, getting some rest in between pressure readings. So, you know, making sure you have a little bit of a break and avoiding caffeine. That's a big one.
But, you know, the reason this is a concern, Phil, is obviously if it's just happening at the doctor's office, not as big a deal. But if the -- if the concern is that anytime you're in sort of an anxious situation, you're also getting a significant rise in blood pressure, that might be something you need to get checked out. So, typically, it's just a component of anxiety, but it is worth having your doctor look into it.
MATTINGLY: Dr. Gupta, you could never give anyone white coat hypertension, which I didn't know about until just now. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always appreciate your time and valuable resource. Thanks so much.
[17:55:10]
GUPTA: You got it. Thanks, Phil.
MATTINGLY: There's brand new reporting on the Justice Department's document dump today, releasing transcripts and audio of the Deputy Attorney General's interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, and also giving a House Committee material on the deceased convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein.
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[17:59:55]
MATTINGLY: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. And we begin with breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead. This afternoon, Justice Department for the first time publicly released information about Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's two day interview, the sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, an interview that happened about over a month ago at this point.
