Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Israel Strike In Qatar Runs Counter To Trump's Objectives; White House Continues To Insist Trump Didn't Sign Epstein Birthday Letter; Report: U.S. Added 911K Fewer New Jobs Than First Believed; Study: Ending Vaccine Mandates In FL Could Result In 1M Measles Cases And Thousands Of Deaths; Man Faces Federal Charge In Deadly Charlotte Stabbing. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 09, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks to all of you at home for watching. Thanks to my panel for spending the afternoon with us. Really appreciate it.

And if you at home miss any of today's show, you can always catch up by listening to The Arenas podcast. Just go ahead scan the QR code before below. You can follow along wherever you get your podcasts. We're also on X and Instagram. You can follow along at The Arena CNN, but don't go anywhere. The Lead with Jake Tapper starts right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper and we do have breaking news for you in our World Lead. At any moment we are expecting President Trump to appear publicly and take some questions from journalists after Israel dramatically escalated its war against Hamas, this time by striking a Hamas target inside the nation of Qatar, a U.S. ally.

President Trump moments ago on Truth Social wrote, quote, this was a decision made by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu. It was not a decision made by me. Unilaterally bombing inside Qatar, a sovereign nation and close ally of the United States that is working very hard and bravely taking risks with us to broker peace does not advance Israel or America's goals, unquote.

Closed caption TV footage in Doha, the city of Doha, the capital of Qatar, captured the moment of the Israeli strike which targeted residential headquarters where members of Hamas's political bureau live. Hamas says that the strike killed five of its members but did not kill the negotiating delegation or the five senior leaders.

Qatar says the strike killed a member of the Qatari security force. Qatar, of course, has been a key mediator in ceasefire talks, maintaining direct channels with the United States and with Israel and with Hamas.

Let's get right to CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House. Kristen, one more is the White House saying about this attack?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I've talked to a number of Trump officials, advisers to the president who all have expressed frustration and anger at the way that this played out. And I actually want to read to you another part of that post that I think is why there is so much hostility and anger at the way that this played out.

President Trump writing I immediately directed special envoy Steve Witkoff to inform the Qataris of the impending attack, which he did. However, unfortunately, it was too late to stop the attack. It was so late that it was after the attack had already started. And we are told that these Trump administration officials are very unhappy with the fact that they weren't able that Steve Witkoff wasn't able to reach out to our allies who have been helping with this process of trying to come to peace agreements, not even just between Hamas and Israel, but on other fronts internationally as well, that Witkoff was not able to tell them ahead of time that this was happening. So they are not happy with how this happened.

TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes at the White House for us. Thanks so much. Just moments ago, the Qatari prime minister described the Israeli attack as, quote, state terrorism, saying that Israel's weapons went undetected by radar and that the U.S. contacted Qatar 10 minutes after the attack. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Israel with how the Israeli military is defending the strike.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Explosions rock the Qatari capital. Israel has just tried to assassinate Hamas's political leadership. Brazen military strikes with far reaching implications.

Israeli officials say Hamas leader Khalil al-Hayya and several other senior Hamas officials were the targets, calling them, quote, directly responsible for the October 7th massacre.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: At the beginning of the war, I promised that Israel would reach those who perpetrated this horror. And today Israel and I have kept that promise.

DIAMOND (voice-over): Hamas says Israel failed. Al Hayya's son was killed along with five others, including a Qatari security official. But the group says Hamas leaders all survived. Hamas says the strike shows Israel is trying to thwart American efforts to end the war.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think we're going to have a deal on Gaza very soon.

DIAMOND (voice-over): Attempting to kill Al-Hayya, Hamas's chief negotiator, amid a renewed American push to reach a ceasefire and hostage release deal. A senior Hamas official said al-Hayya was targeted while discussing the latest American proposal. Israel has targeted Hamas decision makers at critical junctures

before. In May, it killed Hamas's de facto leader, Mohammed Sinwar, one day after the group released an American hostage, Edan Alexander, in a gesture that was meant to spur on ceasefire talks.

And now Israel has violated the sovereignty of a key mediator in those negotiations. The Qatari government fuming, calling the Israeli attack a blatant violation of international law and one that clearly was designed to undermine the peace negotiations in which the United States and Qatar are collaborating closely.

The Israeli strike also drawing international condemnation from Europe to the Middle East.

[17:05:00]

In Israel, hostage families who have demanded a cease fire deal in recent weeks said they felt, quote, deep concern and heavy anxiety, fearing the 20 living hostages still held in Gaza will pay the price for this latest Israeli strike. Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much for that report. Let's discuss this incredibly momentous event with Beth Sanner, former deputy director of National Intelligence who used to provide President Trump with his daily intelligence briefings.

First of all, let me start by reading you something I just read in the Jerusalem Post, which was I think a lot of people think is probably true, although I don't know it to be the case, which is the idea that Israel would not have done this without the United States knowing just because of U.S. presence in the region and the idea that the Israel just doesn't do anything without the Israel knowing about it.

Let me just read the quote, Israel would not have carried out such a dramatic strike without a green light from Washington. Its planes could not have entered Doha's airspace without U.S. forces stationed there detecting them. Is that necessarily true?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: No, I don't think it is. Israel has done things and will continue to do things that they know we oppose and they will set it up in a way that makes it very hard for the United States to say no or they'll just go ahead and do it anyway.

I mean, when I'm thinking about that, the quote there about the statement that Trump made, if he had just said this isn't in America's interest, I would say, huh, I wonder if there's something there. But because of our relationship with the Qataris and how important that is. But he said it's not in America's interest or Israel's interest.

So that means he thinks, I don't think he would just throw that out there. We may find out it's all a conspiracy. But I'm kind of leaning toward the reason the U.S. military found out late is because they had late notification and that's why the military in the Pentagon called Trump, not the Israelis. TAPPER: So big picture, why would Israel do this? What does it get

them to? I mean it is an attack.

SANNER: Sure.

TAPPER: In a sovereign country that is an ally of the United States. Qatar.

SANNER: Yes. I mean, I think I've told you this before. I always think about the relationship between Israel and the United States as a Venn diagram. Looking back at our childhood geometry, right, where we've got like that center part, where we have this overlapping part.

But the Netanyahu little part of shared interests is much smaller with the United States and with Trump than the overall U.S.-Israeli relationship is. I don't think this is in our interests at all. But Netanyahu believes that only force will get Hamas to the table and he does not want to negotiate. But I think he also is very clearly by this saying the hostages are not my number one priority. Killing Hamas and looking strong for the next election is his priority.

TAPPER: So President Trump obviously saying out loud he disapproved of the location of Israel's strike inside the capital city of Qatar, Doha, that it runs counter to his objectives in the region. In the region before that, a top Qatari diplomat based in UC said the strike was designed to undermine peace negotiations and claimed the U.S. and Qatar are collaborating closely.

Netanyahu said hours before the strike that the ceasefire deal was in Hamas's hands, that the war could end today if Hamas just accepted the deal and then he does this.

SANNER: Yes, well, it's always true that this could end if Hamas said yes. But in my view, you wouldn't kill the people or try to kill the people who actually are more open to negotiating and leave the only people standing, the super, super anti any kind of negotiation, the people who are in Gaza.

So if they had been successful, then you would have had people who had said no way, no matter what.

TAPPER: Yes.

SANNER: And so I really think it's counter to getting the hostages out.

TAPPER: And the other question is how much of a heads up did the U.S. have? There is always, of course, the question of maybe Israel didn't want to give the U.S. a heads up so that the U.S. could say we had no idea. But when asked today, the White House was very clear in their language. They said the Trump administration was notified by the U.S. military of an impending Israeli attack. That could just be like the military detects that these jets are coming in or whatever.

SANNER: Right.

TAPPER: It's about to strike in five minutes.

SANNER: They go to the military liaison who's sitting in Israel and say, we're in the midst of this strike. That's what's coming in. It's not hostile forces.

TAPPER: And as you know, you mentioned the hostages. So many family members of Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza are upset about this as they've been upset about things Netanyahu has been doing for months. Quote, the price for the 48 hostages could be unbearable. The living hostages could be murdered at any moment and the deceased could disappear forever. The time has come to end the war. This is a statement from the Hostages and Missing Families forum.

[17:10:06]

Do you think this strike makes getting back those hostages less likely?

SANNER: Yes.

TAPPER: You do?

SANNER: Yes. My heart is breaking for the hostage families right now. I'm very, very worried about it. And let's remember a majority of Israelis want this war to end and the hostages out. That's their number one priority too.

So Netanyahu, while he's got the far-right people on his side on this, I don't think this is a popular move, but it helps keep him in power.

TAPPER: Beth Sanner, thanks so much. We have brand new today, the so called MAHA report that's Make America Healthy Again or the Trump administration's plan that it claims will make America's children healthy again. This is from the brand new report that came out this afternoon. What this report includes, what it does not include. We'll talk about that with a HHS advisor.

But first, the strong reaction from the White House one day after the release of the so called Epstein birthday book. An Epstein survivor with strong feelings of her own about this entire episode will join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:15]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, the White House is once again strongly denying that President Trump ever drew and signed a picture of a woman's torso for a book of even disgusting letters celebrating Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday back in 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president did not write this letter. He did not sign this letter. And that's why the president's external legal team is aggressively pursuing litigation against the Wall Street Journal. And they will continue to.

The Democrats are using victims as political pawns to try to smear and to push a hoax against the President of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining us now is Epstein survivor Jess Michaels, her attorney, Jennifer Freeman, also joining us. Thanks so much for joining us.

Jess, I know that the release of the birthday book and the images and all the coverage of this fallout is creating a lot of triggering and trauma and heartbreak for people like you, other survivors of Epstein's malfeasance. Let me just start by asking, how are you? How are you doing?

JESS MICHAELS, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: So, firstly, thank you so much for having me on, having Jennifer on. Thank you so much for asking that question. Though the last six, eight weeks have been tremendously agitating, I felt very empowered speaking and felt good about that. I've been in trauma therapy for seven years. I really haven't experienced a tremendous amount of triggers or retraumatization until this morning at 4:00 a.m. when I couldn't sleep. And I was scrolling through Instagram and I saw an image from the book.

TAPPER: Oh, I think I know what it was. And I want to ask you about it. Was it the cartoon? I mean, cartoon makes it sound like it's not serious, but it was it the Epstein with young people and then Epstein with. Let me just -- if it's the image I think it is, let me show it to people so they understand what's going on.

And I want to warn people, I want to warn our viewers. This is disgusting, but it is important. This is from Epstein's birthday book. It's on the air right now. On the left it appears to show Jeffrey Epstein and it says 1983, giving balloons to three little girls. And on the right it says 2003. And it's Epstein with. Presumably these girls are now older and they're giving Epstein a massage. One of them looks to be in the middle of a sex act.

We do not know who's responsible for this disgusting drawing at all. There are no names attached to it. We're not alleging that anybody drew it in particular, but obviously it suggests people knew. This is 2003, this birthday book, before Epstein was first arrested for anything, which I think is 2004, 2005.

This suggests people knew. They knew he was grooming. They knew he was trafficking. Jess, your response. Now, I'm sorry for interrupting, but I just wanted to make sure everybody knew what you were talking about.

MICHAELS: Thank you. Thank you for updating everybody on that. So the reason this was so triggering for me is because I'm a 1991 Jeffrey Epstein survivor. I'm one of the earliest publicly known survivors. There are survivors that are earlier. They're not public that I know of. And in 1991, there was something that he did when I was there

initially training me to do massage, as he had trained a very dear friend who trusted him, spoke highly of him and directed me to him. And during that time where he was training me and we were talking about massage, at one point, it devolves into sexual jokes, and one of the jokes started with that in other countries, you know, it can be a little different. You don't just have one masseuse, you have three. You have one at your head, one at your feet, and one in the middle. Hahaha.

And when I saw that picture, and like I said, I haven't had many triggers happen. I've worked so hard on my own healing and taking responsibility for that. All that put me right back there to what happened next. But I think there's something really important about it. And you started saying that joke he told in 1991 shows a pattern of behavior, that's clearly depicted in that cartoon.

I mean, I think you see it too, Jake, right? Like, you see that joke that he said in 1991 is right in that cartoon.

[17:20:02]

TAPPER: That's disgusting.

MICHAELS: Everyone around Jeff, it's disgusting. Everyone around Jeffrey Epstein thought this was funny, thought this was something to celebrate, thought this was acceptable. Everyone around Jeffrey Epstein, everyone in that book, Ghislaine Maxwell co-signed this behavior.

And that is why I felt like it was really important to talk about this, that this started long before anyone is talking about if he made that joke in 1991 with me.

TAPPER: Yes, it's horrific. And I don't know who knew what when, but whoever drew that cartoon obviously had an idea that there was some really shady stuff going on, but they thought it was amusing.

Earlier today, White House Press secretary Karoline Leavitt was asked if President Trump wants to deliver justice to the Epstein survivors and if he's willing to meet with you and others. This is what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The president cares about victims of all crimes. And that's why Republicans in the Trump Department of Justice have done more in terms of transparency when it comes to the Epstein case than any prior administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So she didn't answer the question whether Trump wants to meet with the Epstein survivors. But I wonder what your reaction is to what she said. And also like she said that this is a hoax in terms of Democrats are only caring about this because they want to use this against President Trump.

And in fact, she said people in the news also only care about this because we want to use this against President Trump. What is your take on the attention you're getting?

MICHAELS: That's a great question because I actually posted a couple of weeks ago that I was being inundated with media requests and I was doing four to five interviews a week for, up until last week in D.C. and I had not received one single request from a conservative national news outlet.

So it's not as if I wouldn't. I would want to feel safe, obviously, but I haven't been asked.

TAPPER: Last night, CNN's Abby --

MICHAELS: And I don't think it's --

TAPPER: Go ahead.

MICHAELS: I don't think it's because conservatives don't want to hear about it either. When I talk to friends, when I talk to family that lean, more conservative, they are wondering why they are not seeing me on Fox, why Megyn Kelly isn't interviewing me, why they're not hearing about it anywhere else.

TAPPER: Last night, CNN's Abby Phillip asked an attorney representing convicted sex offender Ghislaine Maxwell, one of Epstein's main collaborators or conspirators, about her prison transfer from a serious facility in Florida to a minimum security prison in Texas. After Maxwell was willing to sit with that interview, if you want to call it that, with the deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, here is some of what this attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell said. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Obviously, I can talk in generalities.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Let's just pause.

AIDALA: When anybody who's represented by a lawyer who knows what they're doing goes in and meets with the government, there's always a quid pro quo. You don't just take your client in and say, let me talk to you about something. Why you laughing? That's what I've done, that for 35 years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just admitted to a quid pro quo.

AIDALA: But that's how the whole system worked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: He later went on to say he did not know specifically about Maxwell's prison transfer and he wasn't involved in this proceeding. But what did you make of the suggestion that she was transferred because of a quid pro quo?

MICHAELS: I mean, I think it's obvious that's exactly what happened. And do we have all the information on what that quid pro quo contained? No, just what they showed us. So I don't think we actually have the full picture of what happened on the other side, what the agreement was.

I think it's horrific that they're talking to a convicted sex trafficker of minors over listening to victims, which goes completely against what Karoline Leavitt said. They have not gone out of their way to actually speak to us and learn about our experiences before trying to close this case.

So I just think it's horrific. Sometimes what comes out of this administration is laughable. You couldn't write this in a screenplay and have anybody believe it.

TAPPER: Jennifer Freeman, final thought.

JENNIFER FREEMAN, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING JESS MICHAELS: This has been part of a pattern, but a nonpartisan pattern. This is not just the Trump administration that started, at least in 1996, when Maria Farmer, the whistleblower, went to the government then-under President Clinton and told the government, told law enforcement, went to the FBI and told them about Epstein's sex trafficking ring and his child pornography and many other things, including about her own abuse by Epstein and Maxwell.

[17:25:10]

This has been a 30 years of failures by various administrations, including this one today. So an ongoing institutional betrayal for all survivors.

TAPPER: Jennifer Freeman, thank you for your time. Jess Michaels, most especially, thank you for your courage and for sharing your story with us today. Hope to have you back.

MICHAELS: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up, the biggest revision ever, ever on a jobs report today. What prompted the changes? My next guest used to run the department that released these reports. I'll ask him, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:03]

TAPPER: A shocker in our Money Lead, revised numbers show that U.S. employers created nearly a million fewer jobs over the year that ended last March, most of which was under President Biden.

If the revision holds when the final numbers come out next February, this will be the largest annual revision to U.S. jobs data on record, and no surprise, the big number is sparking lots of criticism from the current Trump administration. Let's discuss this with Bill Beach, a former commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

BILL BEACH, FORMER COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS: It's my pleasure entirely.

TAPPER: So nearly a million fewer jobs than first reported sounds like really bad news. JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon says the revised figures could mean that the economy is entering a recession. What do you think?

BEACH: Well, I think the trend that we've seen this past year in the unrevised numbers indicates that the labor markets are slowing down. And usually when labor markets slow down, that's a pretty good indicator that the general economy is slowing down, especially if you have a trend and that trend has been going like that.

Now, what -- what you saw, Mr. Tapper, that today --

TAPPER: Call me Jake.

BEACH: Jake --

TAPPER: Please.

BEACH: All right. Very good. What you saw today was a reconciliation of all the estimates that we had in '24 to an actual census or full count of everybody works in the United States. And what we found was we had 911,000 estimated fewer jobs in this past year than what we thought.

TAPPER: So step back a moment. Let's discuss why these numbers change. So BLS data is based on certain bits Bureau of Labor Statistics based on surveys sent to more than 100,000 businesses around the country. Now, what we've been told is that for the last several years, the businesses are slower in getting these surveys back to BLS in the first month, in the second month, in the third month.

BEACH: Right.

TAPPER: But this is for a year that ended in March.

BEACH: Right. Right. So the lack of response rate, that's called a response rate, is -- is a longstanding problem. When I was commissioner between 2019 and 2023, I struggled with response rates on all of our surveys, whether they were the jobs report or whether the prices, whatever constant problem --

TAPPER: People just don't work.

BEACH: Well, yes. And people just don't want to respond to government surveys or, you know, and they get a lot of surveys. I don't know about you, but I get surveys all the time.

TAPPER: I just throw them all out.

BEACH: That's it. That's what most people do.

TAPPER: Right.

BEACH: Thank you. I won't ask you to be a respondent for BLS. But -- but that's -- that's the heart of the problem. And then it becomes a real public problem when these official numbers that are used for big decisions and big deals all across the -- all across the world begin to lose statistical quality, we might say. So we need to do some big things to reform the statistics -- we need -- because they're public infrastructure like roads and bridges. And we can do those.

And I think the Trump administration is kind of eager --

TAPPER: Is it a paper survey that sent through the mail?

BEACH: For the jobs report, it's electronic.

TAPPER: It is through the e-mail. OK. After these revised numbers came out, Labor Secretary Lori Chavez-DeRemer posted on social media that the revision, "gives the American people even more reason to doubt the integrity of data being published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics." And since the numbers cover the period March 2024 to March 2025, most of which was under Biden, here is Trump's White House press secretary blaming the Biden administration. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Between this revision and last year's job growth was actually overstated by approximately 2 million jobs. And the Biden administration stood up here and vouched for that data and told you that data was real. And when President Trump calls into question the veracity of that data, like he did before he took the oath of office and even now as president of the United States, he was ridiculed for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, is she wrong?

BEACH: Well, as it turns out, that was a good point, right? There -- there were too many jobs in the estimates. The estimates were off. So I think what we have to do now is not blame the messenger, BLS employees or patriotic people who want to do a good job. We have to go deep inside and say, can we make the surveys better? Because it really is important. These don't cost you a lot of money, but they can get bad quickly.

So I have got -- I've got suggestions. I've talked to the administration just today about what we can do. And I think they're very receptive to those ideas.

TAPPER: How many questions are on a BLS statistic?

BEACH: Well, for this one -- this one is not too many questions. You're asked what your industry is, what -- what -- well, of course, how many people work there? What -- what -- are they paid for supervisory and non-supervisory pay? So it's not real difficult --

TAPPER: How long does it take to fill out one?

BEACH: It's about -- it's about an eight minute survey, maybe 10 minutes, depending upon if you have the data handy.

TAPPER: Do they get paid for it?

BEACH: No, no, they don't.

TAPPER: Maybe they need to be paid for it.

BEACH: We tried that. And it doesn't make --

TAPPER: It didn't work either.

BEACH: Yeah.

TAPPER: All right. Bill Beach, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

BEACH: Thank you, Jake.

[17:34:44]

TAPPER: Florida surgeon general told me Sunday that he absolutely did not do any projections on potential new cases of diseases as he prepares Florida to end vaccine mandates, including in public schools. But it turns out scientists did do those calculations and we're going to share them next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Did you do any data projection of how many new cases of these diseases there will be in Florida once you remove vaccine mandates?

DR. JOSEPH LADAPO, FLORIDA SURGEON GENERAL: Absolutely -- so, absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Absolutely not. In our Health Lead, the Florida Surgeon General may not have looked into the potential human cost of ending vaccine mandates, including for public school students. But it turns out scientists have and it doesn't look so good. CNN's Meg Tirrell is here. Meg, what -- what did these scientists find?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. So, we talked with a lot of different experts on this, some of whom had already done models and some of whom did a model after the announcement last week from the Florida Surgeon General. Well, one expert told us is that he expects measles likely would return first because it is so contagious. But what he really worries the most about is polio.

[17:40:03] Now, in one of these models from a group led by folks at Stanford, they looked at what would happen if there was a 15 percent contagious. But what he really worries the most about is polio. Now, in one of these models from a group led by folks at Stanford, they looked at what would happen if there was a 15 percent decline in measles vaccination rates in Florida.

And what they found is that over the next 25 years, they said that would lead to 1 million measles cases. And given the death rate of measles, that could lead to potentially 1,000 to 3,000 deaths from measles in the state of Florida that could be potentially prevented by the vaccine.

Now, another group at the University of Florida did modeling after that announcement from the Surgeon General last week that they're looking to get rid of vaccine mandates. And what they found is that even a 4 percentage point drop from 89 percent MMR, measles, mumps, rubella vaccine coverage, to 85 percent would increase the likelihood of outbreaks and increase their size.

So you take the likelihood to about 93 percent from 86 percent for an infected child to start an outbreak. And you take the size of that outbreak in a school, say, of 200 kids to 32 from 20. So at least two models they're showing that this would lead to potentially more cases and even more deaths from something like measles.

TAPPER: And what does research show about the impacts of vaccine mandates, which Florida is trying to get rid of?

TIRRELL: Yes, the Community Preventive Services Task Force has looked at several studies and they found that overall vaccine mandates increase vaccination rates by about 18 percentage points. And interestingly, as you pointed out in your interview on Sunday, Florida parents overwhelmingly support vaccine requirements for at least some vaccines.

Measles and polio, 82 percent in a KFF Washington Post survey done over the summer, say that there should be requirements with exemptions, which, by the way, already exist for those vaccines for schools, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Meg Tirrell, thank you so much, as always. Really appreciate it.

Coming up, the new federal charges today for that man in custody for deadly -- the deadly stabbing of that Ukrainian refugee on the light rail in Charlotte, North Carolina. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:06]

TAPPER: We have breaking news in our Politics Lead. The U.S. Justice Department announced federal charges against Decarlos Brown. That's the repeat offender who was guilty of the allegedly deadly stabbing of 23-year-old Iryna Zarutska, the Ukrainian refugee. U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi saying, "we will seek the maximum penalty for this unforgivable crime. And he will never again see the light of day as a free man."

My panel joins me. So this is such a horrific story in so many ways. And there were obviously so many failures in terms of this man who had been caught up in the criminal justice system and diagnosed schizophrenic and still was walking the streets. There is something interesting that the Secretary of Transportation said.

Remember, this took place on the Charlotte light rail. This is Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy last night on "Fox." Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I can't pull money today from their transit system. I actually have to do an investigation. That's what the law requires. I guarantee all your viewers that if I find what I think I'm going to find, they're not going to have your federal tax dollars going to their public transportation system, zero, none, nada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So Secretary Duffy also posted on social media, "if mayors can't keep their trains and buses safe, they don't deserve the taxpayers money." I have lots of thoughts. But, T.W., what's your reaction?

T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT, PUSH DIGITAL GROUP: First and foremost, so many people are trying to give their public transit away for free in local cities. Should we be subsidizing free transit in cities that are usually subsidized by the people riding? I'm not sure.

I think my biggest issue is this. Here is a man who has been arrested 14 times on charges anywhere from attempted armed robbery to -- to lower crimes. And, look, I believe in grace. Judge Frank Caprio was the late who just passed last week, was a great show of grace in -- on the bench. But he was dealing with parking tickets and speeding tickets.

As you laid out, this man was a schizophrenic. He was released on cashless bail in January. He missed his date for his medical evaluation in July. And he was still roaming the streets. I hold accountable the judges who released these people onto the streets after repeat offenses, repeat and repeat, repeat offenses. And also the D.A.s, the D.A. who didn't request him be detained.

The D.A.s who are not bringing certain charges that allow these people to rack up such a rap sheet. Look, I don't know what the remedy is for the legal system. I'm not a constitutional scholar. I don't know if you can remove them, if you can charge them. I don't know what that looks like. But I do know that the D.A.s are a massive problem and mixed with bad judges who won't enforce the law make a bad problem even worse. TAPPER: So let me just ask you a question as somebody who used to work at the Justice Department. What would the practical effect of taking away transportation money from Charlotte as a result of this crime, what would that mean?

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That means more crime. More crime potentially on these -- on public transit. The reality is, is that local --

TAPPER: Or on the streets.

HINOJOSA: And on the streets. Local officials were very clear that they actually need more cops on the streets. They're not saying that they are fine with resources or they don't need federal government help. Frankly, they're saying that they need more resources.

The interesting part is the Justice Department actually funds, they give grants to local jurisdictions to provide more law enforcement on streets. And just in May they took back about $500 million in cops grants that would normally go on streets to help places and jurisdictions like this one. And so it actually does the opposite effect.

And so I think this is an interesting story. It's a devastating story. But it's an interesting story on the administration's role in law enforcement and fighting crime. Because National Guard isn't the strategy. But providing resources to cops is the strategy. And they don't seem to see it.

TAPPER: So Republican Congressman Tim Moore from North Carolina, his district is actually west of Charlotte. He, along with nine other House Republicans from North Carolina, signed a letter today, T.W., "calling for the removal of Magistrate Judge Teresa Stokes." He goes on to say, "this tragedy was preventable. There must be accountability. North Carolinians deserve better." What do you think, T.W.? I mean, that -- that is accountability for one of the judges involved.

[17:50:02]

ARRIGHI: Yes, look, just like I said, I'm not a constitutional lawyer.

TAPPER: Yes.

ARRIGHI: I don't know what that looks like. But we need judges that enforce the law. To your point about local officials saying we -- we need more cops, I don't know if I see the mayor of Chicago running around the street saying I need more cops here. I thought -- and by the way, and I also don't like to say in Washington, D.C. here, Mayor Bowser always wanted more cops and more jails.

What happened was it went to the city council, and you had the entire city council shoot down --

(CROSSTALK)

ARRIGHI: Well, Charles Allen and that coterie of people --

TAPPER: A lot of them.

ARRIGHI: -- absolutely did. And we pay the price.

HINOJOSA: And the Justice Department actually did provide them with more, and that's why violent crime went down.

ARRIGHI: But she was still asking for more of it, and now it's gone down to zero. You know, we had zero deaths for two weeks. Carjacking is down 80 percent. I've lived it. I see it. But look, it really comes down to law enforcement.

TAPPER: Yes.

ARRIGHI: Who are the people who are -- who are carrying out the prosecution of these crimes? And I think the D.A.s and the judges have done a horrible job in Democratic jurisdictions dealing with it.

HINOJOSA: It's not just Democratic jurisdictions. It's across the country.

TAPPER: But let's turn to the New York mayor's race. I want you guys to take a look at this fascinating poll. New York Times-Siena poll shows the Democratic nominees Zohran Mamdani with a commanding lead in a four-person race, 46 percent behind Mamdani, 24 percent behind disgraced former Governor Andrew Cuomo as an independent. The Republican nominee, Curtis Sliwa, gets 15 percent. Current Mayor Eric Adams is running for reelection, at least as of now, as an independent. He's at 9 percent.

President Trump said the only way to stop Mamdani is a one-on-one with Cuomo. This poll asked about that hypothetical matchup, and take a look. Mamdani still leads Cuomo 48 percent to 44 percent for Cuomo, but it's a much more competitive race. The poll conducted September 2nd through the 6th. On the 3rd, of course, in the midst of that, we learned about talks of a possible Saudi ambassadorship for Eric Adams if he -- if he dropped out.

But I have to say, when I read the first block, I said, oh, well, there's no way all those people for Sliwa and Adams will go to Cuomo. And I was wrong. Then came the second question.

HINOJOSA: Yes.

TAPPER: I was completely wrong.

HINOJOSA: Same.

TAPPER: They generally all went to Cuomo.

HINOJOSA: Same. Yes.

TAPPER: That's --

HINOJOSA: That's the same reaction. And actually, my third reaction was Andrew Cuomo polled, and I'm sure his internal polling, I have to imagine, said the exact same thing. And he handed that to Donald Trump. And I'm assuming that is why Donald Trump has been trying to get everyone out of the race. And this is why, I mean, Trump sees polling. He understands it, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

HINOJOSA: And I have to imagine that is why he's been so interested in this race, because he knows that if, you know, these two candidates get out, that Cuomo has a shot and Cuomo is making his case.

TAPPER: What -- what would you -- what would you -- what would you like to happen in terms of, I assume you don't want --

ARRIGHI: I love New York City, so I don't want to see it go to hell. But I, politically speaking, it would be a godsend to have Mamdani.

TAPPER: Oh, you want him there as a --

ARRIGHI: As a political crudule (ph), absolutely. And I think the President looks at it the same way. He loves New York. He -- he knows he wants it to remain the financial capital of the world. His friends are in his ear. That -- so he's -- he's dealing with that.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

[17:53:02]

To another global tension point with the U.S. after last week's strike on a suspected narco drug boat. A top official in Venezuela is calling White House behavior bipolar. Not sure they have medical expertise for that diagnosis. The explanation in an exclusive interview with CNN, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our World Lead, Venezuela is not looking for a conflict with the United States, they say. But it will defend itself against any possible threats. That's the message from Venezuela's foreign minister who sat down with CNN in an exclusive interview just days after the U.S. carried out a military strike on a boat leaving Venezuela allegedly carrying drugs. Here's CNN's Stefano Pozzebon.

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Jake, the Venezuelan foreign minister, Yvan Gil, sat down with CNN for an exclusive interview. He told us that he does not believe that this current confrontation will lead to an open war between the two countries. And called the White House behavior on Venezuela, bipolar.

At the same time, you remember that one of the most controversial episodes of this crisis took place last week, when the Department of Defense announced that it took out a Venezuelan speedboat allegedly carrying drugs into the Caribbean Sea and effectively killing 11 Venezuelan nationals. Here is what the foreign minister told us about that episode.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

YVAN GIL, VENEZUELAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We can't explain this. And we should ask the U.S. military, how can they degrade themselves by using destructive technology against a defenseless boat?

POZZEBON: Are you calling for an international investigation into that incident?

GIL (through translator): We have seen a whole story of violations of international laws, protocols of engagement, the very same protocols of the U.S. Coast Guard and of the U.S. Armed Forces that are being violated.

POZZEBON: We have also covered many allegations against, about violations of human rights here in Venezuela from this government against the Venezuelan population.

GIL (through translator): OK, but we are part of the Human Rights Council. And yet we disagree on how they acted here with a double standard.

POZZEBON: There are no violations of human rights in Venezuela.

GIL (through translator): Look, in Venezuela we have exemplary behavior when it comes to human rights.

POZZEBON: Well, my country mate, Alberto Trentini, has been detained here since October last year. It's been 11 months. He still hasn't seen a judge nor been able to speak with his family.

GIL (through translator): Yes, but his human rights are not being violated. I know this case.

POZZEBON: He should be seeing a judge.

GIL (through translator): He has a lawyer. He's on trial. And there's a lawsuit going on and it will continue its course. The process must be followed by. In Venezuela, there are thousands of courts representing all nationalities, Colombians, Peruvians, Italians. From many crimes, the most common one is drug trafficking.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:59:54]

POZZEBON: Now, the Venezuelan government has detained foreigners in the past to use them as bargaining chips in negotiations, mostly with the United States. You remember several U.S. citizens among them in the last few years. He confirmed to CNN that as of now there are no U.S. citizens detained in Venezuela. Jake?