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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Suspect To Remain In Jail; Next Hearing September 29; Alleged Kirk Assassin Faces Murder Charge & Death Penalty; Prosecutors Reveals Texts Between Suspect, Roommate; Trump Arrives In London For State Visit; AG Bondi: "We Will Absolutely Target You" Over Hate Speech; Researchers: "Kissing Bug Disease" Now Common In U.S. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired September 16, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Thanks to my panel for being with us today. Thanks to all of you at home for watching. Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead." Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. Good to see you. And we'll see at "The Arena" tomorrow.
HUNT: Sounds good. See you soon.
[17:00:35]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to The Lead. I am Jake Tapper. And we're going to start with breaking news in our law and justice lead. Any moment we're going to see Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin in court for the first time. Prosecutors have said that they are seeking the death penalty against the accused, Tyler Robinson, after sharing a deluge of new information on the case today, including a series of rather damning text messages, including ones that read, "Why did I do it?
I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out," unquote. Utah officials laid out charges today, including murder, obstruction of justice, witness tampering and committing violence in front of a child. CNN's Danny Freeman is outside the Utah courthouse in Provo, which is just south of Salt Lake City.
Danny, this hearing is set to start any moment.
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake. This hearing set to start any moment right now. This is going to be 22-year-old Tyler Robinson's first court appearance. And I'll just note what you said there, Jake. Yes, a deluge of information that was totally new this afternoon, which is amazing because we thought that we had actually a lot of information about this case. But the shocking and really tragic details that unfolded just a little while ago from the Utah County attorney really put so much of what has been going on in this case in perspective. Just to go over a little bit about what we're expecting to see, there is a judge inside of the courtroom, physically in there. We have a CNN producer inside as well. But the rest of the participants, including Mr. Robinson, is going to be virtual. So that's why we're able to bring that to viewers at home. It's mostly going to be live streamed.
And again, he's going to be facing these multiple charges, including aggravated murder, which is a capital felony. And interestingly enough, Jake, also a victim targeting enhancement here. And the purpose for that specific enhancement, according to the prosecutors here in Utah County, is because it was intentionally targeting Kirk regarding his political expression. And as you noted, Jake, the Utah County attorney was very clear that he intends to file a notice of intent to seek the death penalty.
Now, Jake, as we wait for this hearing to begin, I just want to go through some of the really more stunning things that we learned again in just a few hours ago from the --
TAPPER: Danny, I'm going to interrupt you for one second. I'm sorry. We're going -- the hearing is beginning --
FREEMAN: Yes, of course.
TAPPER: -- that we're going to -- that's going to break into the courtroom and watch that right now.
JUDGE TONY GRAF, UTAH'S FOURTH DISTRICT COURT: Electronic usage is allowed unless pre-approved. Any disruptions will be removed. To the jail, are we ready to proceed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor.
GRAF: Calling case 251403576, State of Utah versus Tyler James Robinson. Could you state your name?
TYLER JAMES ROBINSON, SUSPECT IN CHARLIE KLIRK ASSASSINATION: Tyler James Robinson.
GRAF: Thank you for being here, Mr. Robinson. I'm Judge Graf.
Mr. Skordas.
GREG SKORDAS, ATTORNEY CONDUCTING SEARCH TO REPRESENT KIRK: Good afternoon, your honor. You're probably already aware of my presence or why I'm here. But if not, I am not entering an appearance. I'm not counsel on this case. I'm working with the county to get counsel assigned. But we need you to allow for the appointment of counsel.
GRAF: Thank you, Mr. Skordas. It is -- well I want to go through the qualifications --
SKORDAS: Absolutely.
GRAF: -- for indigenous (ph) team. But that is my intent, Mr. Skordas.
SKORDAS: Very well.
GRAF: And I thank you for being here.
So, Mr. Robinson, you have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, the court can appoint an attorney to represent you. I have reviewed your declaration of financial status and find that you are indigent. I'm provisionally -- provisionally appointing a rule A qualified attorney to represent you on your case, Mr. Robinson. Along with their filing of their appearance of counsel, the assigned attorneys must file declarations with the court that outline their qualifications under Rule 8. Under Rule 8C -- I'm sorry?
Under Rule 8B and Rule 8C for counsel appointment in a case where death may be a sentencing option. I'm worried that those declarations be filed prior to the next hearing date, which is set for September 29th at 10:00 a.m.
[17:05:00]
Mr. Robinson, I also wish to inform you of your rights against self- incrimination. Anything that you say in court today could be used against you and we want to protect your constitutional rights.
Mr. Robinson, at this time you will remain in custody without bail.
Mr. Skordas, is there any other points that you wish to address?
SKORDAS: No. Thank you very much, Your Honor.
GRAF: Turning to the state.
CHAD GRUNANDER, UTAH COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Yes, your honor. Chad Grunander for the state. I'm also joined and they're listed as attendees, Ryan McBride (ph), Lauren Hunt (ph), David Sturgel (ph) and Chris Ballard (ph). We are the trial team on this case.
I do have a few points I'd like to bring up with the -- with, Your Honor, we have filed a pretrial protective order on behalf of Erika Kirk. We would ask the court to review that. It should be in your queue, Your Honor, and sign that.
GRAF: Thank you. I have reviewed the pretrial protective order and will be grant issuing this pretrial protective order in favor of Erika Kirk. Is there any other business that we need to address today, counsel?
GRUNANDER: Just for the court's information, we did file just recently, within the last few minutes, a notice of intent to seek the death penalty that was filed by Utah county attorney Jeff Gray. So that should be in the court's file.
Lastly, I would just indicate to the court and to at this point, Mr. Robinson, that we are prepared to collect all of the discovery in this matter and get that turned over to the defense as soon as possible. Rule 16 requires us to provide what we have relied on in charging the information in bringing these charges within five days once it's requested. So that'll be prepared to disseminate to the defense as soon as possible.
GRAF: Thank you, Mr. Grunander.
Mr. Robinson, what I also want to do is you have the right to have the charges read that you stand charged of and I wish to read those to you -- to you at this.
Thank you.
Mr. Robinson, recount one, aggravated murder, a capital felony in violation of Utah Code Annotated 76-5-202 in that on September 10, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson, intentionally or knowingly caused the death of Charlie Kirk under the following circumstances, the defendant knowingly created a great risk of death to another individual other than Charlie Kirk and the defendant. Notice conviction of this offense may carry the death penalty or pursuant to Utah code 763-207.7 a mandatory to -- mandatory term of imprisonment for life without parole or an indeterminate term of not less than 25 years that may be for life. Victim targeting enhancement in violation of Utah code annotated 76-3-203.14 sub 2, Tyler James Robinson intentionally selected Charlie Kirk because of Tyler James Robinson's belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression.
Notice if the trier of fact finds beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim targeting enhancement applies, the sentencing judge or the Board of Pardons and Parole shall consider the defendant's selection of the victim as an aggregating factor. Violent offense committed in the presence of a child aggravating factor, the sentencing judge or the Board of Pardons and Parole shall consider as an aggravating factor in their deliberations that the defendant committed a violent criminal offense in the presence of a child.
Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, a first degree felony in violation of Utah Code Annotated 76- 11-210 sub 2 and 3C, in that on September 10, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson, discharged a firearm in the direction of Charlie Kirk, knowing or having reason to believe that Charlie Kirk may be endangered by the discharge of the firearm and that the act caused serious bodily injury to Charlie Kirk. Victim Targeting Enhancement in violation of Utah code annotated 76-3-203.14 sub 2, Tyler James Robinson intentionally selected Charlie Kirk because Tyler James Robinson's belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression.
[17:10:01]
Notice if the trier fact finds beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim targeting enhancement applies, the sentencing judge or the Board of Pardons and Parole shall consider the defendant's selection of the victim as an aggravating factor. Violent offense committed in the presence of a child aggravating factor the sentencing judge or the Board of Pardons and Parole shall consider an aggravating factor in their deliberations that the defendant committed a violent offense in the presence of a child. Count three, obstruction of justice, a second degree felony in violation of Utah Code Annotated 76-8-306 sub 2, in that on September 10, 2025, in Utah county, the defendant Tyler James Robinson with intent to hinder, delay or prevent the investigation, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or pursuant to any person regarding conduct that constitutes a criminal offense, conceal or remove the firearm used to shoot Charlie Kirk and the conduct that constitutes an offense would be a capital felony or a first degree felony.
Count four obstruction of justice, a second degree felony in violation of Utah Code 768306 sub 2, in that honor about September 11, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant Tyler James Robinson, with an intent to hinder, delay or prevent the investigation, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of any person regarding conduct that constitutes a criminal offense, destroyed, concealed or removed the clothing he wore during the shooting and the conduct that constitutes an offense would be a capital felony or first degree felony.
Count five, tampering with a witness, a third degree felony in violation of Utah Code Annotated 76-8-508, in that honor about September 10, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson, believed that an official proceeding or investigation was pending or about to be instituted or intended to prevent an official proceeding or investigation and attempted to induce or otherwise cause his roommate to withhold testimony, information, a document or an item to wit directing his roommate to delete incriminating text messages.
Count six, tampering with a witness, a third degree felony in violation of Utah code annotated 76-8-508, in that honor about September 11, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson, believed that an official proceeding or investigation was pending or about to be instituted or intended to prevent an official proceeding or investigation, and attempted to induce or otherwise cause his roommate to withhold testimony or information, to wit, directing his roommate to stay silent if the police question the roommate.
Count seven, violent offense committed in the presence of a child, a class A misdemeanor in violation of Utah Code Annotated 76-3-203.10 sub 2 and 76-3-203.14 sub 3A little double I, in that honor about September 10, 2025 in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson, committed criminal homicide in the physical presence of a child younger than 14 years of age with knowledge that a child was present and that may have been seen or heard the commission of the criminal homicide victim targeting enhancement in violation of Utah code annotated 76-3-203.14 sub 2, Tyler James Robinson intentionally selected Charlie Kirk because of Tyler James Robinson's belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression. That concludes reading the information.
Mr. Robinson, this case is set for September 29th at 10:00 a.m. It will be a waiver hearing. And I will be the judge assigned to this case. Mr. Robinson, I invite you to join us at that time.
Is there anything further, counsel? SKORDAS: No, Your Honor. We'll have counsel appointed by then. Thank you.
GRAF: Mr. Grunander, anything further?
GRUNANDER: One item, just for clarification, Your Honor, the hearing on the 29th, is that in person or WebEx?
GRAF: Thank you. That is a great question. It will be via WebEx.
GRUNANDER OK. Thank you, Judge.
GRAF: All right. I want to thank all parties for being here. And this concludes this hearing at this time. Court is in recess.
[17:15:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All rise.
TAPPER: All right, the hearing has concluded. Let's bring in CNN Anchor and Chief Legal Analyst Laura Coates.
And Laura, that's the first time we have heard the shooter speak when he gave his name. What's the main takeaway here? What just unfolded?
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, number one, we don't know who his lawyer is going to be. He's been deemed indigent, which means he is unable to afford a counsel of his choosing. And by virtue of the Constitution and the idea of him being able to have counsel, it will be appointed to him. But the judge is asking for somebody under a particular rule who has death penalty experience. That means, of course, we'll have to be well aware of what entails in that sort of thing.
But also you have a very stoic defendant who I was looking to see any emotion that he might be displaying, hearing that the death penalty may be requested for you is a very monumental seismic moment. He had no reaction, nodding in essentially understanding alone.
But then there was also a protective order that was asked for by the prosecution on behalf of Erika Kirk, now widow of Charlie Kirk. That entails that there might be an element of fear that she is experiencing or the thought that she wants no contact either from him or anyone around him that would make her feel more secure. Of course, she is a mother of two young children, you understand that.
But here you have the charges being read to him. This is not a state where they have a grand jury who you go to and say, listen, grand jurors, here is our evidence of probable cause, can you then indict this person? They have a preliminary hearing process which means that a judge will look at the evidence before them and decide whether there is enough probable cause, not beyond a reasonable doubt, to hold this person and find that there is probable belief that this person committed the crime. That's the next court date we're going to hear about. But ultimately you've got a speaking essentially indictment of sorts from the prosecutor earlier today which laid out so much evidence, it's allegations, the statements of counsel, not evidence in a court of law.
But what can come in a court of law --
TAPPER: Yes.
COATES: -- statement to the defendant, including all these text messages.
TAPPER: Well, let's go over that because earlier today prosecutors laid out some of the -- these allegations against a suspected shooter. And here's some of that from just hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY: The bullets trajectory passed closely to several other individuals beside Mr. Kirk, including the questioner who was standing directly in front of Mr. Kirk. Children were visible near Mr. Kirk's stage when he was shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The prosecutor, Mr. Gray there read a trove of text messages between the alleged assassin and his roommate, with whom prosecutors say the assassin -- the alleged assassin was having a romantic relationship. The suspect told his roommate to delete the messages, hence the charge of witness tampering, presumably. One message from the defendant read, quote, "To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you." The roommate responds, "You weren't the one who did it, right," with four question marks. And then the defendant says, "I am.
I'm sorry." Roommate, "I thought they caught the person?" The defendant, "No, they grabbed some crazy old dude."
In another exchange, the roommate asks, "Why?" And Robinson, the defendant says, "Why did I do it?" Roommate, "Yes." Robinson, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out."
We also learned that the suspect's mother told investigators that her son had become more political and left leaning over this past year, quote, becoming more "pro-gay and trans rights oriented," unquote. Prosecutors also confirmed that the shooter's roommate, with whom he was having a romantic relationship, was in the midst of transitioning from male to female.
That is a lot of information --
COATES: Yes.
TAPPER: -- from prosecutors in what you call a -- what you call a speaking indictment or?
COATES: Yes. And of course, interestingly enough, they were still quite conservative in terms of all they may have had. And why? As the prosecutor noted, you want to ensure the constitutional rights of the defendant. You want to make sure that your burden of proof can be met and not tainted in some way by a statement that you're making or have this idea, which we think of in the common lexicon of an open and shut case.
You have to prove every single bit. One thing of note, he is not speaking with the investigators, nor does he have to, it's his right to remain silent. But the words he says can be used in a court of law against him, even if he doesn't take the stand and even if he does not actually speak to the people who are investigating. Why? Because the statements of a defendant are not even in the category of hearsay.
Because theory of hearsay, Jake, is essentially say, I don't want any statement that comes in that I can't confront my accuser or test the credibility of. I got to address an out of court statement from a year ago. No, you have the choice to do so. It's your own words. And there's a part of, it is prosecutorial gold to have the actual question answered.
[17:20:00]
Why did you do it? Not because you have to prove the motive, but you have an aggravating factor here of the political ideology that has been stated, and of course, in front of a child, but because it does give you more of that mountain of evidence you want to prove your case. But the one thing I found so stunning here, normally you think about the identity of the person. How do you know it's him? Well, his own mother identified him.
TAPPER: Yes.
COATES: They addressed that. The mother saw the type of surveillance video that was published for the exact proof of trying to show who the person was and said she called him, questioned him, didn't believe his answer, he was homesick. Talked to her husband, also didn't believe. And then the husband said, the father, send me a picture of the gun your grandfather gave you because it sounds like the one that was actually used. He couldn't do it.
TAPPER: Yes.
COATES: This is --
TAPPER: Because he -- because he'd hidden the gun.
COATES: Because he'd hidden the gun.
TAPPER: Yes.
COATES: Another charge in this case.
TAPPER: Very, very fascinating stuff. And we should note that as far as we know, the parents of the alleged shooter and the roommate have all been cooperating --
COATES: Yes.
TAPPER: -- with authorities, which is, I think, important for our viewers to know.
Laura Coates, thank you so much. Laura's going to have a lot more on her show tonight, "Laura Coates Live." Look for that tonight and every weeknight at 11:00 Eastern.
And only here on CNN, in the wake of this horrific assassination, Attorney General Pam Bondi is today facing criticism from Democrats and Republicans alike for her new targeted approach towards what she calls hate speech. We're going to talk about that.
But first, tension and defiance, some of the testy moments as senators confronted FBI Director Kash Patel earlier today. We'll show you what went down. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): -- your social media posts that tears this country apart --
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: It is my time to address --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:25:28]
TAPPER: Back with our politics lead, FBI director Kash Patel was defiant on Capitol Hill today, telling lawmakers, quote, "I'm not going anywhere." Patel threw indignant responses back at Democratic senators on topics ranging from Charlie Kirk's assassination investigation to the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
Listen to Patel when pressed on why Jeffrey Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell was transferred to a minimum security prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Being in the weeds --
PATEL: You are the biggest fraud to ever sit in the United States Senate. You are a disgrace to this institution and an utter coward.
Citizens of California, we are bringing historic reform.
SCHIFF: -- internet --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Point of order.
PATEL: But all you care about is a child sex predator that was prosecuted by a prior administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: CNN's Brian Todd now shows us more of the fireworks.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATEL: I'm not going anywhere. If you want to criticize my 16 years of service, please bring it on.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A defiant Kash Patel defending his job so far as FBI director. The most contentious moments came just after Democratic Senator Cory Booker accused Patel of making the country less safe, citing Patel's firing of senior FBI officials and his significant misstep in the early hours of the Charlie Kirk investigation.
BOOKER: You claim that you have a suspect in a serious assassination. Whoops. Then you don't have a suspect. But here's the thing, Mr. Patel, I think you're not going to be around long.
PATEL: That rant of false information does not bring this country together. If you want to work on bringing this country -- it's my time, not yours.
BOOKER: My God. My God.
PATEL: If you -- if you -- if you want to talk about --
BOOKER: (Inaudible) fighting this country?
PATEL: It is my time --
BOOKER: I follow you on your social media posts that tears this country apart --
PATEL: It is my time to address your falsehood --
(CROSSTALK)
BOOKER: Verify all you want --
PATEL: -- embarrassment to the division in this country.
BOOKER: -- and not take responsibility for what you had said.
PATEL: It is my time. You had your time.
BOOKER: Sir, you're (inaudible) mock of this Committee --
PATEL: You're time is over.
BOOKER: Sir, you don't tell me my time is over. The people of New Jersey --
PATEL: Do you know how far we comes since --
BOOKER: -- tell me what my time is.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Senator --
PATEL: You can't lecture me.
GRASSLEY: Senator Booker --
PATEL: You can't tell me time over.
BOOKER: You have -- you may be the charge --
PATEL: I'm not going anywhere.
GRASSLEY: Senator Booker --
BOOKER: I am not afraid of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman --
BOOKER: I'm not afraid of you.
TODD (voice-over): Earlier, the committee's top Democrats slammed Patel for the director's initial claim that the subject was in custody in the Kirk investigation, then having to walk that back.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL), RANKING MEMBER, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Mr. Patel was so anxious to take credit for finding Mr. Kirk's assassin that he violated one of the basics of effective law enforcement. At critical stages of an investigation, shut up and let the professionals do their job.
TODD (voice-over): Patel later admitted he could have been more careful with his wording about the subject who was being questioned but said he was trying to be transparent. Republican senators repeatedly defended Patel.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I've seen no reason to -- for the armchair quarterbacks to be criticizing his performance. I think it's been commendable. Took roughly 33 hours to rest the Charlie Kirk killer.
TODD (voice-over): While outgoing Republican Senator Thom Tillis ended the hearing on a different tone.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Within 24 hours of Mr. Kirk's shooting, we had the guy that does the podcast for the war room and another guy who's denied the Sandy Hook shootings say we're at war. There are people out here on our side of the aisle that still need to look in the mirror.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): Patel was repeatedly hammered by Democrats for his firings of top FBI officials. The Democrats drilling down on suggestions that the firings were based in part on political pressure from the White House to fire agents involved in Trump related investigations. Patel repeatedly denied firing anyone on behalf of the White House. Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Brian Todd at Capitol Hill, thank you so much.
Now to our world lead, and several months, several months, that's how long the Israeli military says Israel's invasion of Gaza City will take. That offensive entered a new phase today as Israeli ground forces went in escalating what had previously been a devastating air assault, including on high rise towers in Gaza's largest city that Israelis said housed Hamas. Let's go to CNN's Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv.
And Jeremy, Israel's new ground operation has plenty of critics, not only the leaders of several countries in Europe and the Middle East, but also families of hostages still being held in Gaza.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right, Jake. And for weeks now, the Israeli military has been preparing to carry out this plan to conquer and ultimately occupy Gaza City. We have seen as they have ramped up aerial bombardments, sent ground troops into the outskirts of Gaza City in key strategic areas, all in order to prepare for what the Israeli military said began today, which is the first wave of attacks in order to invade that city.
[17:30:08]
And indeed, overnight, we saw that over the last day or so, at least 86 people were killed, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. That aerial bombardment sent children, adults, elderly people to the hospitals, many of them covered in blood and soot following those bombardments. But what is also happening is the mass displacement of Palestinians. Hundreds of thousands have fled the city already, but hundreds of thousands more still remain, even as the Israeli military has issued evacuation orders for the entirety of Gaza City.
And so what will come next still remains unclear, but the military is saying that it will take months perhaps in order to complete its plans to take over Gaza City. And as you said, there are now concerns as well for the lives of hostages, one of whom we saw in a Hamas video in traveling above ground in Gaza City in just the last couple of weeks.
And so the families of those hostages, 20 of whom are still believed to be alive in Gaza, fearful that this ground offensive in Gaza City could endanger their loved ones' lives as well.
TAPPER: All right, Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv, Israel, for us, thanks so much.
President Trump has just arrived in London and might be a bit knackered or tired, as we say. What is on Trump's agenda and what topic is probably not going to be his cup of tea?
Plus, Attorney General Pam Bondi trying to clean up her comments on prosecuting hate speech, comments that have Democrats and Republicans in something of an uproar. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:35:47]
TAPPER: Our World Lead now. President Trump arrived in London this afternoon for his second state visit to the United Kingdom, the other during his first term. Tomorrow, he will be welcomed by King Charles at Windsor Castle, home to British monarchs for, I don't know, just about the last 900 years or so.
President Ronald Reagan stayed there during his state visit in 1982. Reagan, of course, had a much different attitude toward the Soviet Union and its leaders than President Trump has toward Russia and Vladimir Putin, which will no doubt be a topic of discussion.
CNN political analyst and New York Times White House correspondent Maggie Haberman joins us now from London. Maggie, what should our viewers be on the lookout for over the next few days while Trump's in England?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Jake, I think the biggest question is what happens at this joint press conference that Keir Starmer and President Trump are supposed to hold on Thursday. We don't really know. We don't know how long it will be. We don't know how limited the topics might be. I think that President Trump is going to want to focus as much as he can on the pomp and pageantry around this dinner. He's been talking about it for several days, about the fact that it's highly unusual to have Windsor open for a president.
And we know what a royal watcher he is. He often has talked about how his mother was a royal watcher. So I think that is where he would like his focus to be. But as you say, there are other issues going on in the world.
TAPPER: Including the fact that the British and other European leaders are trying to shore up Ukraine's military defenses, a subject that is likely to come up during the visit. Before he left the White House today, the President was asked if he thought his summit with Putin, which was a month ago yesterday, accomplished anything. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, it accomplished a lot, but it takes two to tangle also. You know, those are two people, Zelenskyy and Putin, that hate each other. And it looks like I have to sit in the room with them because they can't sit in a room together. There's great hatred there. But no, that meeting accomplished a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So the President says that Putin meeting accomplished a lot. What are you hearing from your sources about U.S. efforts to stop this war, Putin's war on Ukraine?
HABERMAN: Look, President Trump is still hoping that there can be some kind of a breakthrough where there would be a bilateral meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin and then a trilateral meeting where he would be present. But as you know correctly, that was a month ago, plus now, that that Alaska summit took place. And there has been no movement since. And President Trump has kicked it over to NATO as their response. They have to go first, essentially, those nations on sanctions and on tariffs if he's going to enjoin the U.S. there as well.
So the answer is, I think the President continues to buy time for not punishing Russia. You know, there's been lots of, obviously, speculation about his dealings with Putin in terms of just leader to leader and the fact that he clearly has more admiration for what he would call the strong ones in terms of world's authoritarians than he does some U.S. presidents or ally leaders. But I also think there is a part of him that realizes he has not been able to get this done.
And so to put sanctions on and still not be able to get it done, I think he's not sure that that accomplishes much. Other people would disagree with him, but I think that that's his perspective.
TAPPER: Yes. One thing, one topic the President cannot escape in London are questions about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, given the involvement not only of Britain's Prince Andrew, but also last week's firing of the British ambassador to the U.S., Peter Mandelson, over revelations of his close relationship to Epstein, which came out by Bloomberg and also that birthday book. What are you hearing about the White House strategy when it comes to any Epstein questions that might come from our friends from Fleet Street?
HABERMAN: Well, look, I think this gets back to the question that I said earlier about what exactly this press conference looks like. I think this is a question that not only President Trump doesn't want to continue dealing with, but I think it's also not a question that Keir Starmer wants to deal with.
This is part of why Mandelson was fired, although certainly not the only reason. Prince Andrew, who was an associate of Jeffrey Epstein's, is not expected to be at this dinner. And so I think that everybody involved here has some interest in trying to minimize attention to this. We will see if that's possible over here.
TAPPER: Everybody involved, except for the journalists, of course. Maggie Haberman, thanks so much. Always good to see you.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Jake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cover-up had little to do with the break-in. It was to protect covert operations. The covert activities involve the entire U.S. intelligence community.
[17:40:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Deep Throat say that people's lives are in danger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What else did he say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said everyone is involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: An iconic scene from "All the President's Men" as the World Remembers actor and director, Robert Redford, who died today at the age of 89. In "All the President's Men," Redford played Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward, who, along with Carl Bernstein, broke the Watergate scandal story, which toppled Richard Nixon's presidency.
In that same scene from the movie, Ben Bradley, the editor of the Washington Post, played by Jason Robards in the film, says, quote, nothing is riding on this except the First Amendment of the Constitution, freedom of the press, and quite possibly the future of the country. A fitting quote, as we note that the current president today is being accused of, yet again, waging a war on the free press through his words and actions. Let's discuss with our panel.
It starts, well, it starts in 2015, but most recently, Attorney General Pam Bondi, drawing criticism from both Democrats and Republicans for comments she made on Katie Miller's podcast yesterday, talking about Charlie Kirk.
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PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: There's free speech, and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society. We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that's across the aisle.
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TAPPER: The attorney general later forced to clarify those remarks posted on Twitter, quote, hate speech that crosses the line into threats of violence is not protected by the First Amendment. It's a crime. Free speech protects ideas, debate, even dissent, but it does not and will never protect violence. It is clear this violent rhetoric is designed to silence others from voicing conservative ideals. Of course, when people talk about hate speech, they're not necessarily talking about incitement to violence, which is a whole other category.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right, I mean, there's hate speech around, as we know, hate crimes, right, which can lead to violence, obviously hate speech that can lead to violence. But what about, I don't know, hate speech around hanging the former vice president of the United States? How about hate speech or inciting violence that leads to a violent mob attacking the United States Capitol on January 6th and a police officer being killed?
I mean, the hypocrisy around this is just astonishing, given that, you know, what we seem to hear from President Trump is hate speech or mean speech or negative, anything he just doesn't like, anyone who doesn't ask him a question that he deems inappropriate seems to be, you know, hateful. We've seen him berate many of our CNN colleagues and others. For any question he just deems it is out of bounds.
TAPPER: Yes.
FINNEY: So what's concerning here is the U.S. Constitution is supposed to help us guide around what's hate speech in terms of any audience that we might be speaking to, not just people we don't like.
TAPPER: I saw a lot of conservatives on social media taking real issue with what Attorney General Bondi had to say.
T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT, PUSH DIGITAL GROUP: Yes, I think that's why she had very worthwhile clarifications. Look, you can't yell fire in a movie theater, you can't yell bomb at an airport. There are consequences to those actions when they turn violent. We know this killer was on Discord and all the chants, talking to people, wanting violence against Charlie Kirk. If this was aimed at another group besides conservatives, I think our tone would be a bit different.
Look, I agree that there is a difference between hate speech and speech that's asking for violence or inciting people toward violence. But I think we're right now very close to that cusp and a lot of left- wing chatter, and it needs to be looked at. And by the way, the administration says they have evidence that groups are funding a lot of that. That should be looked into.
TAPPER: So Terry, our former colleague, ABC's Jonathan Karl, tried to ask President Trump about this earlier today. Take a listen.
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JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: A lot of your allies say hate speech is free speech.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. It's hate. You have a lot of hate in your heart. Maybe they'll come after "ABC." Well, "ABC" paid me $16 million recently for a form of hate speech, right? Your company paid me $16 million for a form of hate speech. So maybe they'll have to go after you.
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TAPPER: First of all, the notion that Jonathan Karl has a lot of hate in his heart.
TERRY MORAN, JOURNALIST: He's one of the fairest and most decent people.
TAPPER: I don't think he has any hate in his heart. But what was your reaction when you heard that?
MORAN: Well, first, as did Trump, look, this is basically what every petty autocrat wants. Make your whims the law. OK, a little clarity. There's no such thing as hate speech in American federal law. The words never appear in the U.S. Code. In the Supreme Court for decades, Republicans and conservatives alike have again and again and again said when the government wants to punish speech, they have to meet an incredibly high burden that came in a case where somebody threatened to shoot Lyndon Johnson.
In a case where somebody burned a cross on a lawn. In a case of stalking a singer-songwriter. And in the case of the Westboro Baptist Church, which staged these despicable demonstrations outside the funerals of fallen soldiers. Each time, the Supreme Court overturned a conviction won by the government. It is almost impossible to win.
TAPPER: But his comments there come the same day that President Trump posted on Truth Social, quote, today I have the great honor of bringing a $15 billion defamation and libel lawsuit against "The New York Times," one of the worst and most degenerate newspapers in the history of our country, becoming a virtual mouthpiece for the radical left Democrat Party. "The New York Times" has been allowed to freely lie, smear and defame me for how long that stops now.
[17:45:20]
In a note to staff, "The New York Times" publisher said, quote, everyone, regardless of their politics, should be troubled by the growing anti-press campaign led by President Trump and his administration. T.W., any issues with that? What do you think of him suing "The New York Times" for articles that he felt portrayed him negatively?
ARRIGHI: Well, he has the right as an American to bring lawsuits against those who he thinks defame him. He obviously won the lawsuit against "ABC" for defamation when he was called.
TAPPER: Well, he didn't win it. They settled.
ARRIGHI: They settled. But what was the core of it? It was defamation, being called a rapist.
MORAN: The core of it was the business interests of Disney.
ARRIGHI: Well --
FINNEY: Right.
ARRIGHI: But why the case -- hold on a second. Why the case, well, bear with me.
FINNEY: No.
ARRIGHI: Why the case was brought was for that reason. He has the right to do it. OK, there is -- I saw one poll in YouGov saying 67 percent of the American people do not believe that Donald Trump gets a fair shake. He often says that I could cure cancer and everyone would hate it. The fact of the matter is, is Donald Trump feels that he is uniquely picked on by the press.
He is constantly challenging them. And I think he was trolling Jonathan Karl there. But I think this is his remedy to try to get at what is the core reason for why the media will never give Trump and his supporters a fair shake. Will it work? We will see. But he has the right to do it.
MORAN: Well, I think that Jonathan Karl, once again, you know, is not a hater in any way, shape, form or fashion. But as far as the president bringing a libel suit, there is leadership interest there involved. And I will say this, this whole discussion is are the chickens come home to roost of the illiberal left's project begun 30 years ago to make speech violence, right, to make hate a crime. And it was all they were always warned by libertarians. At some point, a government you don't like will use this against you. And that's what's happening now.
FINNEY: I think the other problem that I have with some of these lawsuits is it's not just that he's bringing the lawsuit against these networks. It's then saying, and we're going to mess with your bit. I'm going to use the levers of government to mess with your business interests. That is not appropriate. It's one thing to say, I'm going to sue you around speech that I think is inappropriate or because I have my First Amendment rights. But when you are using those levers to then create other problems for a business entity, that's where it becomes problematic. And unfortunately, we're seeing that happen over and over again.
TAPPER: Thanks, one and all. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, the kissing disease, but it might not be what you think it is. This one spreads by bug bites on your face. We're paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta for this one next.
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[17:52:07]
TAPPER: In our Health Lead, researchers are warning of an emerging kissing disease in the United States. They're not talking about cooties. They're not talking about mana (ph). We're paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta to help us understand this new health threat. Sanjay, what exactly is this kissing disease? How widespread is it?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, calling it a kissing disease makes it sound not that bad, right? What we're actually talking about is something known as Chagas, C-H-A-G-A-S disease. A lot of people may not have heard of this, no surprise, because it's mostly, Jake, been relegated to the tropics for a long time. But as the weather has gotten warmer, it's moved from rural Mexico and Central America and South America into the United States.
Take a look at this map here. There's eight states where they're now saying that this is endemic. And that means, basically, people -- those are the states that are the darkest there on that map. These are places where, you know, people got the disease, not because they traveled somewhere and brought it back, but because they became infected there. So sort of a constant presence there. And that's why they're calling this endemic.
There's about 280,000 people, they estimate, in the United States that have Chagas, but only about 1 percent of people actually know it. And that's another reason they're trying to bring some awareness to it. Jake, it's called the kissing disease because these bugs, which are about a half inch to an inch long, typically bite people on the face, and then they leave a parasite in that area.
And then that itches, so people scratch, and they sort of embed that parasite into their skin, and that causes the infection. You can develop what's called the Chagoma. You can develop something in the eyelid. So these are sort of noticeable, identifiable problems, but that's basically what the disease is.
TAPPER: How do you know if you have it?
GUPTA: It can be hard initially, because it may just appear like another bite. And for a lot of people, they may not have significant symptoms. If they develop symptoms, it may be a fever, a rash, headache, and eyelid swelling, like I mentioned. About 20 percent of people, Jake, this persists to be a problem for them. They may develop cardiac issues down the line or GI issues.
Incidentally, that image you're looking at, that is sort of what happens when you get the eyelid swelling that's associated with Chagas. Very characteristic. That's the sort of thing you notice. Most people aren't going to develop that, but these are some of the ways that you can notice it.
TAPPER: Does it only bite you in the face, and how can we protect ourselves?
GUPTA: Yes, it typically tends to be the face. It can bite you elsewhere, but I think part of the reason it bites people in the face primarily is because it's nocturnal. So typically when people are sleeping, they may be covered on the rest of their body, but their face is exposed. That's part of the reason. It tends to come from outside to inside in the after dark.
[17:55:01]
So making sure doors are closed after dark, making sure seals or cracks are sealed, rather, so the bugs can't get in. That seems to help. Insecticides in areas that are particularly hard hit, that seems to help as well. Texas right now, Jake, is the state that has the most of these cases.
TAPPER: Are there any other diseases that we need to protect ourselves from specifically this time of year?
GUPTA: Yes, you know, I mean, you know, we still think about mosquito- borne illnesses and West Nile, for example. So West Nile is caused by a virus that's transmitted by mosquitoes. Chagas is caused by a parasite that is transmitted by these kissing bugs and bacteria from Lyme disease as well.
Jake, I'll tell you, you know, West Nile wasn't a thing in this country before 1999. Then there was that big outbreak in New York and now it's just about everywhere in the United States. So we're seeing more of these endemic sort of pathogens, you know, take hold in this country.
TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Sanjay's taking your questions on this. Scan the QR code on your screen right now to submit a question and Sanjay will be back Thursday to answer some of those questions.
In our National Lead, American farmers are pleading for help from the government to offset the effects of low prices, high costs and tariffs. CNN's Dianne Gallagher takes us to Marvel, Arkansas, where farmers say they're reaching a breaking point.
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P.J. HANIE, OWNER, HAYNIE FARMS: This is Arkansas grown.
DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): P.J. Hanie is a fifth generation farmer. He works nearly 5,000 acres in the region. His primary crops are soybeans and rice.
HANIE: We produce more acres of rice in Arkansas than any other state in the United States.
This is one of my unplanted fields right here. I'm not able to sell anything off this field. This field should be lush full of soybeans right now, but it's not. It's bare dirt.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): For farmers in many parts of the American South, it's a dire situation.
HANIE: This year's been the perfect storm. Low commodity prices, a wet spring, delayed acres from getting planted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last year we made the best crop we've ever made. We lost money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a national concern.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): This was a sentiment at the National Cotton Council meeting in rural Arkansas, where future farm funding and President Donald Trump's so-called big beautiful bill was the hot topic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't see anything that's beautiful about the whole bill.
JOE JENNINGS, CEO, TILLEY CROP PROFITABILITY PLATFORM: This is not your ordinary farm crisis. We call it farmageddon and it really is tough times.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Joe Jennings founded a company that helps farmers with financial and risk management. He drove three hours from Memphis, Tennessee to attend the meeting, feeling a farm crisis could have a catastrophic domino effect.
JENNINGS: Whenever there's a farm crisis, there's a banking crisis. Complexities of the program make it much more important that the farmers take some time to put pencils to paper.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Earlier this month, hundreds of farmers left their fields during their busy harvests to voice their fears and beg congressional aides to come up with emergency assistance.
HANIE: Yes, that sickle cuts it off at the bottom and then that reel feeds it into the machine.
Now, Arkansas farmers need an injection of cash right now to keep them on the farm.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Due to a variety of factors, including unpredictable weather, new tariffs and rising costs for everything from feed to fertilizer, farmers say they're at a breaking point. The 2018 farm bill has had two extensions. It's due to expire September 30th, meaning farmers won't see any federal dollars until the big beautiful bill kicks in late 2026.
HANIE: Our bill collectors want money now. The chemicals, the seed companies, the fertilizer companies, they need it now. They don't want to hear, well, I'm waiting on a farm bill payment that's going to come two years from now. They don't want to hear that.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Unless money comes now, it's projected up to one-third of Arkansas farmers could face bankruptcy or be forced to shutter their operations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first started driving combine, no cab, just out here in that open air and dust. You know, it's hard times.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Ernest Cox (ph) has been farming for more than 65 years and now at 81 still behind the wheel of a combine, he fears this could be his last.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if they don't do something, there's going to be some farmers that ain't going to be around next year.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Hanie hopes if the right person hears his message, it'll spark a positive outcome before it's too late.
HANIE: Seventy-seven percent of farmers voted for President Trump. And all we're asking for President Trump and this administration do is take care of the farmers that feed the world.
Food security is national security. Please, Mr. President, put a moratorium on all farm and food and agribusiness processors immediately.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): Diane Gallagher, CNN, Marvel, Arkansas.
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[17:59:52]
TAPPER: And our thanks to Dianne Gallagher for that report. CNN is going all in, airing this year's Farm Aid benefit concert live. CNN's John Berman and Laura Coates are going to get to host those lucky ducks that Saturday night at 7:00 Eastern only here on CNN.
