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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Alleged Kirk Assassin Faces Murder Charge And Death Penalty; Patel Defends Recent Firings Of FBI Officials; Epstein Scandal Threatens To Haunt Trump's U.K. State Visit; Credit Scores Drop At Fastest Rate Since Great Recession; Actor, Director, Activist Robert Redford Dies At 89. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 16, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: And we're starting off this hour of The Lead with the breaking news. A short time ago, the suspect accused of assassinating conservative activist Charlie Kirk made his first court appearance. 22-year-old Tyler Robinson now charged with aggravated murder, felony discharge of a firearm, two counts of obstruction of justice, two counts of witness tampering and commission of a violent offense in the presence of a child. That child, sadly, Charlie Kirk's kids. Utah officials are also seeking the death penalty in this case, most revealing today perhaps, alleged text messages between the suspect and his roommate, with whom prosecutors say he was in a romantic relationship, prosecutors read some of those messages aloud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY: Roommate, you weren't the one who did it, right? Robinson, I am. I am. I'm sorry. Roommate, I thought they caught the person. Robinson, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude then interrogated someone in similar clothing.

Roommate, why? Robinson, why did I do it? Roommate, yes. Robinson, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: We also heard a recounted conversation between the suspect and his parents after his mother identified the shooter in photos released by law enforcement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAY: As they discussed the situation, Robinson implied that he was the shooter and stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it. When asked, why he did it, Robinson explained there is too much evil in the guy, referring to Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: We also learned that the suspect's mother told investigators that her son had become more political and left-leaning over the past year, quote, becoming more pro-gay and trans rights-oriented. Prosecutors also confirmed that the alleged shooter's roommate with whom he was allegedly having a romantic relationship is in the midst of transitioning from male to female.

TAPPER: Here to talk about these charges is the Utah Department of Public Safety commissioner, Beau Mason. Commissioner Mason, thanks for joining us.

So, prosecutors say that those detailed messages were sent in the hours after the assassination in two days before the suspect was arrested. Did you support the decision to publicly reveal these messages before the trial was set?

BEAU MASON, COMMISSIONER, UTAH DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: You know, that's a decision the county attorney makes based on -- the charging document is a public document. And so the things that are put in there to show the elements of the crime and some of that pertinent information is a decision they make. And so they're the experts in how that case is going to go and ensure a fair and just trial. And so we trust them in their decision-making with that.

TAPPER: Obviously, one of your tasks right now is to make sure that this trial proceeds peacefully with no further violence. Officials say that the roommate has been cooperative with investigators. Do you fear for the roommate's safety or the parent's safety or anyone else's given how horrific this assassination was and how politically charged at all this?

MASON: You know, we absolutely do. We have seen threats increase in the day -- in the hours immediately following the shooting. We took one individual into custody and detained them as a person of interest. And then, you know, quickly ascertained they were not involved and released them. That individual was threatened and harassed just because they were questioned. And so there's no doubt in my mind that the family is feeling that pressure. The roommate is feeling that pressure. You know, we have no evidence to prove that any of them corroborated in, you know, the killing of Charlie Kirk. But they were persons involved with Mr. Robinson and therefore receiving, you know, some hatred and some judgment. And, yes, we definitely fear for their safety and take measures to hopefully protect them.

TAPPER: Is there any indication that anyone else may have been involved in this assassination, in this horrific act of violence and anyone else might face charges?

MASON: So, right now, our investigation continues. The arrest has been made, but that does not stop the investigation.

We're looking into online profiles. We're looking at people that Tyler Robinson may have interacted with in transit when he's traveling to the university and in the hours following. And so we haven't ruled that out. We absolutely are doing a very thorough investigation. At this time, I can tell you very confidently that the evidence points to him acting alone as the shooter on the Utah Valley University campus. That doesn't mean we're going to stop and not look for any other connections and we continue to do that. [18:05:01]

TAPPER: During a hearing at the Senate earlier today, the U.S. Senate, FBI Director Kash Patel said the FBI is looking to question more than 20 people who were in that online group chat on Discord where the suspect allegedly confessed to killing Charlie Kirk. Do you anticipate anyone in that group chat might be associated with the crime in any way that they might be charged with anything?

MASON: Again, I can say we're looking at anyone that had involvement with Charlie Kirk. Some of this information, I can't release. You know, as the state lead investigating agency, we have, you know, different things that we can release. We're working very closely with the county attorney's office. Is that lead investigative agency that is charged with moving the case information over? We can't speak to evidence that we're currently working on or interviews that we're currently conducting.

TAPPER: You said you were looking to anybody that was involved with Charlie Kirk. I think you meant to say anybody involved with the suspect, Mr. Robinson.

MASON: Yes. I apologize, Mr. Robinson leading up to the shooting and the timer out, anyone that had interactions with that and anyone that had interactions online, anywhere.

TAPPER: Yes. I just wanted to clarify. I knew what you meant. Utah Department of Public Safety Commissioner Beau Mason, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today, sir.

Earlier today, Senate Democrats criticized FBI Director Kash Patel over his handling of the Kirk assassination investigation, especially over his premature social media post about a suspect having been in custody. That suspect was released and was not actually involved in the shooting.

Joining us now is Republican Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania. And, Congressman, one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is because obviously you have served as both an FBI special agent and a federal prosecutor. What are your thoughts on how FBI Director Patel has handled the investigation so far?

REP. BRIAN FITZPATRICK (R-PA): Well, they captured the killer, so that's good. There were some missteps along the way, I think everybody would acknowledge that. But, you know, to turn that case around in the quick manner that they did I think is commendable. And it was a, you know, true team task force effort between the federal, the state, and the local. And it looks like they have solid evidence against him. So, the outcome is good. Certainly, things could have been done differently. I think they would all acknowledge that.

TAPPER: Isn't the outcome because the family cooperated ultimately and turned in their son? I mean, isn't that really why he was caught? I don't want to take anything away from the hardworking men and women or the FBI, but is it -- wasn't that the lucky break? FITZPATRICK: Well, that was one piece of evidence, a very important piece, but also the video surveillance that identified him, that captured him, that allowed his family to, in fact, identify him. So, there were a lot of pieces of evidence that corroborated it, the seizing of the weapon, the DNA collected off the weapon. There's a lot of pieces to this puzzle.

Building these cases is very complicated. Some pieces of evidence are more important than others, but they all collectively paint the mosaic that the prosecution is going to need.

TAPPER: Yes, good point. The mom did see the image of her son, which inspired her action.

Also brought up in today's hearing is the rise in political violence, which is pretty, pretty horrific and has been for years. This is what Republican Senator Eric Schmitt of Missouri had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ERIC SCHMITT (R-MO): We've heard years of the left, their loudest voices calling anyone on the right extremists, extremists MAGA Republicans, fascists, Nazis, an existential threat to democracy. Check yourself and don't give me this both sides bullshit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What are your thoughts on this, sir?

FITZPATRICK: I think the rhetoric needs to come down across the board. Nobody should be shouting in a committee hearing. Nobody should be casting aspersions. This is a time, especially now, when we can draw a direct causal link between this incident and the rise of hate speech across America that leaders need to, you know, be the calm, cool, collected ones to lower the volume and temperature of the discourse and bridge the gap between differences. I think that's incumbent upon all of us in Congress, in the media and in the public as well.

TAPPER: When you say hate speech, what do you mean? Because Attorney General Bondi is facing criticism, even from many in on the conservative side of the aisle, over her comments about the Justice Department going after what she says as hate speech. And after her comments, Brit Hume with Fox posted on social media, someone needs to explain to Ms. Bondi that so-called hate speech, repulsive though it may be, is protected by the First Amendment, she should know this.

So, what do you mean by hate speech and what do you think of what Brit Hume had to say about Pam Bondi?

FITZPATRICK: Well, I think it's, you know, anything that's inflammatory, Jake. You know, we can -- based on the words we use and the tone we take in our communications with others, we're either fanning the flames of division or we're trying to lower the volume of temperature of the discourse. We all know that. We know it from our personal relationships that you have to see the world through the other person's eyes and try to see the humanity in the other person. [18:10:01]

And I think that's really what's lacking right now with so many -- as we're seeing so many of these crimes unfold, we're seeing a lack of humanity. We're not seeing the humanity in other people. You should never hate anybody. You especially should never hate someone that you've never met, that you've never spoken to.

And I just think it's incumbent upon every leader in this country, no matter what you're leading, to be a responsible adult and understand the weight of your words.

TAPPER: All right, I agree. Republican Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania, right outside Philly, thank you. I appreciate your being here, as always.

Also, at the Senate hearing today, the FBI director, Kash Patel, addressed the firing of three FBI agents. The attorney for those fired agents will join me next with this response to what Patel said.

And this just in, a new lawsuit from several families against the developer of Character.AI, alleging that the company's chatbots contributed to the suicides of their children and attempted suicides. One mother dealing with the aftermath is going to join us ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead today, FBI Director Patel pushed back against claims over whether the White House directed him to fire FBI employees who had been involved in any investigation in any way against President Trump.

[18:15:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Any termination at the FBI was a decision that I made based on the evidence that I have as a director of the FBI, and it's my job and I'm not going to shy away from it. And as you stated, those are allegations and that is an ongoing litigation. So, they'll have their day in court, so will we.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: He is referring to the three fired FBI agents currently suing Kash Patel and the Trump administration over their terminations. And their attorney, Chris Mattei, joins me now.

Chris, so Patel is denying that the White House instructed him to fire FBI officials, to fire your clients. So, what are your clients alleging?

CHRIS MATTEI, PARTNER, KOSKOFF, KOSKOFF AND BIEDER: Well, that's certainly very different than what he said when he had a direct conversation with Brian Driscoll, where he told Brian Driscoll that his superiors, including the White House, had directed him to fire people who had been involved in investigations of President Trump, that it wasn't his decision and that he would be fired if he didn't carry out the White House's wishes. So, that's something that we expect to prove at trial. It's very different than what he said today. But at some point, as Director Patel said, we'll have an opportunity to sit across the deposition table with him, sit across a courtroom from him, and he'll have to answer for his actions.

TAPPER: How can you prove that in court?

MATTEI: Well, we're very comfortable that somebody like Brian Driscoll, who's had a 20-year career at the FBI, who's led some of the most sensitive missions during the course of his career at the FBI, led hostage rescue teams, led critical incident response teams, has been awarded the Medal of Valor and the Shield of Bravery and spent his career investigating and proving that people had engaged in unlawful behavior, we won't have any problem proving that Director Patel did exactly that.

TAPPER: Patel also said during his Senate hearing today that the White House contacts agencies on budgeting processes but not individual personnel decisions. Is that true?

MATTEI: Not according to Director Patel when he had conversations with Mr. Driscoll, and including conversations in the presence of others. I mean, it was quite clear that Mr. Patel had been tasked with purging the FBI of agents and supervisors who had not demonstrated sufficient personal loyalty to the president.

So, I'm sure that there are budgetary conversations with the White House. That's not what this litigation is about. This litigation is about Emil Bove, Director Patel, Pam Bondi, Stephen Miller and the White House executing a purge of the FBI because agents and supervisors had done their jobs in investigations involving President Trump and that they stood up for the FBI workforce when the FBI workforce was under attack for political reasons.

TAPPER: Do you think that these firings, not just of your three clients, but other dozens of FBI agents who, you know, did what they did as they were told during previous administrations has affected the FBI's ability to protect the American people?

MATTEI: There's not a doubt in my mind. When you get rid of people like Brian Driscoll, Steve Jensen, Spencer Evans, and many, many others who, for years, had provided nonpartisan expert service to the American people as leaders within the FBI and really stood as examples to the rest of the FBI workforce, you absolutely handicap our ability to prevent and respond to crises and threats.

There's a reason that Brian Driscoll and Steve Jensen and Spencer Evans were in such significant positions of responsibility, and that's because they had proven over time that they were capable of doing the work that needs to be done. And what happens when you make decisions for political reasons is you deprive the American people of the level of protection that they are entitled to and that they should expect.

TAPPER: Chris Mattei, thank you so much. Please come back as your case proceeds. We appreciate it.

MATTEI: Thank you.

TAPPER: President Trump just arrived in London, foggy London Town, and following him there some of the stark reminders of his controversies back here at home. We'll show you some of the new images just coming in from foggy London Town. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, President Trump just touched down for his second state visit to the United Kingdom, but amidst the fanfare of his pending meetings with the royal family and Prime Minister Keir Starmer, the Jeffrey Epstein scandal is still casting quite a shadow all the way across the Atlantic.

CNN Anchor and Chief Whitehouse Correspondent Kaitlan Collins is on the ground near Windsor Castle. Kaitlan, explain the connection here.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, and not really just casting a shadow, I should note. They're literally casting images of this on Windsor Castle earlier tonight to kind of remind everyone of those ties that you mentioned there with Jeffrey Epstein. This was done -- I should note, four people have actually been arrested as a result of this. And these images that we were recorded here showing that alleged birthday letter that was in the Jeffrey Epstein book that was released, pictures with Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, that's that old footage from Mar-a-Lago. They also are posting images of the president's mug shot. I'm not so sure he would mind that one. They have it hanging inside the halls of the West Wing.

But, Jake, the one thing that the British prime minister and President Trump do have in common is they've now both had to fire senior officials in their orbit as a result of their ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously, Trump did so in his first term with his then-labor secretary, Alex Acosta, the one who negotiated that sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein years before he was the labor secretary, but something that became a sense of intense scrutiny, obviously, after Jeffrey Epstein's, federal charges that he was facing and most recently for the British prime minister had to fire his ambassador to the United States, a huge position and certainly a critical one, especially ahead of a state visit over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, something that was known before he took the job, but became much clearer after a lot of this information became public, including emails and messages between Ambassador Peter Mandelson and Jeffrey Epstein.

[18:25:08]

And so, obviously, that is part of this that is going into this.

It's not looming over the entire trip. It's certainly an angle of it. Jake, given obviously it's been a huge interest for the president's base inside the United States and also for lawmakers inside Washington. So, it remains to be seen if it comes up. Certainly, who they pick as the next ambassador to the United States is a key role because this is someone who talks to top officials. Peter Mandelson was helping negotiate deals with the vice president, J.D. Vance, in the days before his ouster. And so it's a key role here. They couldn't get brought up as the president is here now for his second state visit with the U.K.

TAPPER: And, Kaitlan, aside from the Epstein related discomfort, what do we know about President Trump's existing relationship with the Royal family and his relationship with the prime minister, Keir Starmer?

COLLINS: Well, he's always had a fascination with the royal family. And so we are going to see that, that put on display here. He's had a state visit before, that was in 2019, his first time in office, but obviously with a different monarch and also it was at Buckingham Palace. And so this one will look a lot different than his last state visit, which they have been keen to highlight how that is unprecedented to offer that to a US president, to be able to afford two of those, given his two terms in office.

He'll be meeting with all the royal family here tomorrow. They're going to have basically every sense of pomp and circumstance that you can think of, Jake, rolling out every single red carpet that they have for the president. And so we'll see how that proceeds as they're meeting with them. Then after that, he'll go and meet with the British prime minister at Chequers, which is the country residence for the British prime minister. All of these are moments to watch very closely.

And, Jake, they're actually intertwined because having the state visit is a huge card basically that Keir Starmer has in his pocket, a way to impress the president, to ingratiate him with the U.K. and to try to use that obviously to benefit them, whether it's on trade, defense, business, all of those issues that are going to come up on Thursday here for the state visit.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins in London, thank you. And tonight, Kaitlan, will be interviewing Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, and she'll have a lot more coverage from London, foggy London Town, on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern on CNN tonight. It's live from foggy London town.

TAPPER: Just in, that new lawsuit against the developer of Character.AI, that's the chatbot platform that one mother says is the reason behind her son's suicide. And that mom will join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE DOE, MOTHER: I had no idea the psychological harm that an A.I. chatbot could do until I saw it in my son and I saw his light turn dark.

MATTHEW RAINE, FATHER OF ADAM RAINE: When Adam worried that we, his parents, would blame ourselves if he ended his life, ChatGPT told him, that doesn't mean you owe them survival. You don't owe anyone that. Then immediately after offered to write the suicide note.

MEGAN GARCIA, MOTHER OF SEWELL SETZER: In a reckless race for profit and market share, they treated my son's life as collateral damage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In our tech lead parents sounding off on Capitol Hill today about the dangers of A.I. chatbots after they say their children were harmed or died by suicide because of these platforms. Among those testifying, Megan Garcia, whose son, Sewell Setzer III, was just 14 when he died by suicide in February, 2024.

Garcia is now suing Character.AI, a chatbot app that she says her son was messaging with moments before his death.

Today, more families announced lawsuits against Character.AI's, developer, and Google, alleging their children also died or were harmed after interacting with these bots. And Megan is here with me now. And, Megan, I'm so sorry that we're meeting under these circumstances. It's just absolutely horrific and I'm so sorry and I'm sure everybody out there is feeling the same way.

When Sewell started talking to Character.AI, you said you thought it was just like talking to a video game. The platform is set up differently than ChatGPT and other bots. Tell us about what you know about how Sewell was using it.

GARCIA: I understood that he was using an A.I. product but my limited understanding of what A.I. was at that time led me to believe that it was some -- like an avatar or something that does not -- I had no idea that it had the abilities that this product actually had of having human-like conversations, mimicking human behavior, and even drawing the user, my son, into conversations that led him to emotional reaction to the chatbot.

TAPPER: And you're suing Character.AI alleging that the company knowingly failed to implement proper safety measures that would've prevented this horror from happening to Sewell, to your family. Character.AI told CNN that the company does not comment on pending litigation, but wrote in a statement, quote, our trust and safety team has implemented numerous new safety measures, including a pop-up directing users to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline that is triggered by terms of self-harm or suicidal ideation.

Do you think that those safety measures that they started, that they've implemented since Sewell's horrific passing, do you think that goes far enough? Is that enough?

GARCIA: I do not. Those safety measures were implemented on the eve of the lawsuit coming out last October. They had the ability to put those safeguards in place before this tragedy. They chose not to. For whatever reason, they chose not to. After the lawsuit, then they put -- then they have more safety precautions, such as the suicide chatbot pop-up that comes up. However, there's reporting and studies that show that those safety measures are not always -- they don't always work.

TAPPER: Yes. I mean, I would think that a young, impressionable mind, and we're talking about a 14-year-old here, might think that the chatbot is real and some popup ad is just an ad.

[18:35:00]

GARCIA: Part of the problem is the characters are designed not to break character. So, in the case of my son, when he was talking about his suicidal ideations, the character didn't break character. It didn't stop and say, I'm not a human. I'm an A.I. You need to talk to a human and get help. It just continued to pretend to be the person that it was pretending to be. And that's part of the problem that they don't -- my son didn't receive a popup for suicide, a suicide crisis hotline, and he continued the conversation.

TAPPER: You testified today before Senate Judiciary Committee subcommittee. What regulations or federal pressure do you think might be effective to stop this from happening again? I just -- it's so awful and I hear your story. I hear Sewell's story and I think there, but for the grace of God, this could have been any child, it could have been any parent.

GARCIA: A large part of the danger is in the design of the product, because the goal of the companies is to maximize engagement. The longer they could keep my 14-year-old on Character.AI, the more data they could extract from him to use to train their model. So, they have incentives, wrong incentives, to keep my child engaged. So, what they do is they have conversations that a 14-year-old would be interested in and to continue the prolonged engagement to just gather the data.

And there are hundreds of children, or millions of children actually on these platforms, and they're gathering all their intimate thoughts, impressions for their own financial gain.

TAPPER: Megan Garcia, thank you so much and may Sewell's memory be a blessing. I'm so sorry that you went through this and I hope that your voice prevents it from happening again.

GARCIA: Thank you.

TAPPER: If you or anyone you know is struggling with any thoughts of suicide or mental health, help is available to you. You should please call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. Again, that number is 988. There is help for you. There is love for you.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): Let me be clear. Violence is never okay. Regardless of the motivation, violence is never the answer. And we cannot allow violence to be used as a pretext for more violence. We must reject the rhetoric of vengeance and instead focus as you are today on the work of healing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Back in our Politics Lead, that is, of course, Democratic Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro condemning political violence at the Eradicate Hate Global Summit in Pittsburgh today. The governor also spoke about becoming a target, recounting the horrifying moments earlier this year during Passover when a man tried to set his house on fire. The suspect admitted to police to quote, harboring hatred for Shapiro and said he would've beaten the governor with a hammer if he had not been caught.

Here's our panel. Governor Shapiro also criticized the selective cherry-picking of political violence. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAPIRO: Unfortunately, some, from the dark corners of the internet all the way to the Oval Office, want to cherry-pick which instances of political violence they want to condemn. Listen, doing that only further divides us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: T.W., I know you are not guilty of that. You have condemned violence, political violence, left, right, center, at this table, as have you, Ashley. What's your take on what Governor Shapiro had to say and this moment that we're all in and whether or not you think President Trump is rising to that moment?

T.W. ARRIGHI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think his words, broadly speaking are correct. I think we, as I said on this channel, the change begins with each of us individually. We all need to meet the moment in our own way. That's really where this change begins from. I'm not so certain Donald Trump is a fan of violence. That was the only qualm I would have with what he said. I don't believe that is the case.

And I believe Donald Trump is speaking from a visceral area with Charlie Kirk being like a son to him. And you've seen a lot of people comment on the statistics about the rise of violence and when on the left they say it's okay to use it. But make no mistake about it, it's immaterial because whether where on the political spectrum it comes from, it's still wrong.

TAPPER: Yes.

ARRIGHI: And we ought to say it clearly.

TAPPER: So, take a listen to what Republican Congressman Don Bacon from Omaha, Nebraska, said earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I realize we've had people on both sides murdered and I think it's better to treat it that way. We have a chance to say, hey, political violence is wrong, period. And it affects both parties.

So, we ought to treat this as a team and not make it worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Ashley?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, we can't -- I don't want to both sides this. I feel like that's what we do too often and the reason why people are doing it so easily now is because it's a consistent behavior that is hard to stop in a moment of deep emotion. I don't doubt the people who followed Charlie Kirk or the president are experiencing great rage, anger, and sadness in this moment. And we have to be adults also and say violence on all sides are wrong.

And I think what the congressman is saying is like there have -- there were the legislators in Minnesota that were murdered, but there's also things that happened that we always don't even cover on the news that happened in this country, whether it escalates to death, violence is violence in any form, and we just have to stop it.

TAPPER: Yes. Yesterday, Vice President Vance hosted The Charlie Kirk Show, the podcast to honor his friend, the conservative activist. He attacked the Nation Magazine for an article that was headlined, Charlie Kirk's legacy deserves no mourning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G. Here is what the vice president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: The writer accuses Charlie of saying, and I quote, black women do not have brain processing power to be taken seriously.

[18:45:07]

But if you go and watch the clip, the very clip she links to you realize he never said anything like that. He never uttered those words. He made an argument against affirmative action as a policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: All right, so we saw him saying that and we wondered what he was talking about.

We went to "The Nation" magazine article. The vice president is talking about. It does have a correction that says a previous version of this article attributed a quote to Charlie Kirk incorrectly. And so, Vice President Vance is correct that the quote was wrong.

But this is what Charlie Kirk had said that the vice president and "The Nation" were referring to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE KIRK, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: If we would have said that Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Ketanji Brown Jackson were affirmative action picks, we would have called -- racist. But now, they're coming out and they're saying it for us. They're coming out and they're saying, I'm only here because of affirmative action.

Yeah, we know you do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person's slot to go be taken somewhat seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Okay, so the quote is not, quote, Black women do not have the blah, blah blah, blah blah. It's you and he is referring to four prominent Black women, Joy Reid, Michelle Obama, Sheila Jackson Lee, Ketanji Brown Jackson.

So, the vice president is correct that it was a misquote, but what's your response?

ALLISON: Yeah. When I hear Charlie Kirk say things like that, I find it offensive as a Black woman. I have had people say to me, I'm sitting in a seat because I took it from -- because of affirmative action.

But guess what? Even in my finding that offensive, I still don't think Charlie Kirk deserved to be murdered. And we have to be able to hold two thoughts as people in this country, that people can say things that offend you and you can dislike them.

And I'm a commentator, so I push back on it all the time, but that doesn't mean you condone violence.

TAPPER: Yeah. I think what's interesting is I've heard progressives say that in the morning of Charlie Kirk and in the condemning of the horrific, unacceptable violence, there is a whitewashing of what he said. He was a provocateur. He said things that offended some people. I don't think we have to hide that.

ALLISON: Uh-huh.

TAPPER: That's, in fact, those are the people -- I mean, the First Amendment is there not to protect, you know, the person that says, here's an ice cream cone, it's there to protect everybody.

ARRIGHI: Exactly right. And there's been people who are public facing individuals who talk for a living, like Charlie Kirk, who have hours upon hours upon hours upon hours of content that can be gone through. And by the way, this example aside, there have been plenty of falsehoods spread about Charlie Kirk.

TAPPER: Sure. ARRIGHI: Stephen King putting out that he wanted to stone gays only to

delete it and say, I'm sorry, but that's the type of stuff that percolates over time. And John Fetterman talked about this this weekend. He said, we got to stop using certain language to describe people just because we disagree, because that metastasizes into something worse and eventual violence.

Words aren't violence. Violence is violence.

ALLISON: I think I agree with you that maybe we should be mind -- everyone should be mindful of the words they use. I also think we should be mindful of how we characterize people, that we might not like, the way they live their life. If you are not -- if you -- if you have prejudice in your life, maybe take a second. You just said, and I said this on Sunday, be the better version of yourself you want to be.

What I am not hearing a lot of in this conversation is what can I do as a person. There's a lot of pointing fingers in this moment. The only change that we will ever see, if we change ourselves.

So if I hold bias towards you because you are a conservative and I have make assumptions about you as a conservative, what I can do, the agency I have is ask you, why do you feel that way? Is this how you actually feel? And what I would hope, as someone who loves discourse and debate, is that you would give me the same choice. It doesn't mean you're going to change my mind, but we have to be able to do both.

ARRIGHI: And the fact of the matter is, it takes discourse to get to know the person because it's really easy to hate somebody who you've never met before. And it's good to realize that until we get the humanity of somebody else, we ought not paint them with a broad brush.

TAPPER: And, you know what's really bad for that. This horrible get off your phone and share. Don't -- you don't have to share every horrible thought you have at every moment you have it.

Thanks to both of you. And I see your humanity. Both of you right here.

ALLISON: I see yours.

TAPPER: Thank you. I appreciate it. That's two. All right. Appreciate it.

In our money lead today, American credit scores are dropping, apparently at the fastest pace since the great recession of 2009. The folks at FICO say that the national average is down two points this year. More borrowers are falling behind on debts such as credit card payments and car loans.

Which brings me to our "Business Leaders' series, where we hear from small business owners coast to coast about the impact of Trump's tariffs. Rohrman Automotive Group is family owned. It's been around since 1963.

[18:50:01] They have 22 car dealerships across the Midwest, and CEO Ryan Rohrman joins us now.

Ryan, how is business now compared to how it was before the tariffs went into effect in April?

RYAN ROHRMAN, CEO, ROHRMAN AUTOMOTIVE GROUP: Yeah, Jake, thanks for having me on the show tonight.

Business is still very good. You know, it's -- nationally, we still see a. three to four percent increase through August. You know, since 2020, we're looking at potentially our second or maybe even our first best new car year since COVID hit us, which, you affected the entire economy.

But overall, we're looking at a 16 million SAAR this year, which we haven't seen one of those for many years now. So the tariffs, they're definitely affecting the United States economy. But inside of the auto industry itself, it's still moving forward.

You know, historically, we see a 2 percent increase right now roughly on new car sales, or new car selling prices year over year. But that's right in line with the national average of every single year. We do see new car prices going up as new technology comes out, new models come out.

So, overall, the industry inside the new car model or the new car segment is still very strong.

TAPPER: That's fantastic news. I'm really happy to hear that.

Are the tariffs impacting your sales at all?

ROHRMAN: You know, it's -- are they impacting our sales? It's hard -- it's hard to directly answer that because sales are still very good. They're definitely impacting the auto industry.

The price of cars has gone up. It's just who's paying for it. So right now, the manufacturer has really stepped up, to cover most of our costs. You just remember, inside of the automotive industry, the segments that we sell, they're extremely competitive. So if one manufacturer comes out and raises the price by $2,000 or $3,000, they effectively remove themselves from that entire segment.

You know, so, like a CRV to a RAV4, they're strategically priced close to each other. So, if one of them drastically increased their pricing, you would see a pretty steep decline in the sales of that model. So, it's very competitive.

At the same time, we're seeing a 6.8 percent offering from the manufacturers and incentives. So, with the price increase of a little over 2 percent this year, we're still seeing savings of north of 6 percent. That's not on every single car. But it's -- the good deals are still out there from the manufacturers. So, it's definitely making prices go up. I don't think anyone would say that that's not happening. But there's an answer, to find a good deal and to try to soften it as

much as it can.

TAPPER: Quickly if you could. Is it a good time right now to buy a car, given the price increases that you've talked about, or do you think prices might drop next year?

ROHRMAN: You know, historically we don't see car prices drop. Like I said before, we see car prices continuing to go up. You know, the last five years, we saw a -- really a softening in the incentives from the manufacturer. Right now, we're back up to where they were before COVID at almost a 7 percent offering at many of the manufacturers.

So, I would say right now is a great time to buy a car just because you're looking at an average, a 2 percent increase with, potential to save 6.8 percent with incentives, whether it's APR, dealer cash rebates, whatever it might be.

So, like I said, the deals are out there. It's so competitive. And the manufacturers, they're going to keep it competitive because that's what moves them forward.

TAPPER: All right. Ryan Rohrman of Rohrman Automotive, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir.

ROHRMAN: Yeah, thanks for having me on show. Appreciate it.

Some legendary names are sharing their condolences for Hollywood icon Robert Redford. We're hearing from Meryl Streep and Glenn Close and Morgan Freeman and a host of others.

Coming up next, we're going to talk about some of the classic work that has so many reflecting.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:58:35]

TAPPER: Finally, from us in our pop culture lead, we mark the passing of actor, director, philanthropist and environmentalist Robert Redford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one clear shot. That's all I want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get away from me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to fight him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: His talent and good looks made Redford one of Hollywood's favorite leading men for decades. From "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", and romances such as "Barefoot in the Park" with Jane Fonda in the 1960s to the 1970s, when he was still going strong. "The Sting" earned Redford his only Academy Award nomination for acting. Also, in the '70s, he costarred with Barbra Streisand in "The Way We Were", and he was still the heartthrob in the 1980s.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR: Farewell, farewell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep it --

REDFORD: Well, I leave out the dull parts. Farewell, farewell. But this I tell to thee thou wedding guest. Lay your head back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Redford not only starred with Meryl Streep in out of Africa, he also had moved on from acting to directing. He won the directing and best picture Oscars for the 1980 drama "Ordinary People". Redford also had a huge influence in how movies get to the screen through the Sundance Film Festival, in which he championed independent films.

Robert Redford died in his sleep at his Utah ranch earlier today. He was 89. May his memory be a blessing.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky and on the TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN. If you ever missed an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.