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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Shifts On Peace Deal, Urges Ukraine To "Fight And Win"; Trump: NATO Should Shoot Down Russian Jets Violating Airspace; Trump Calls Climate Change "The Greatest Con Job"; W.H. Calls For Investigation After Trump Escalator Incident; Trump Bashes The U.N., Then Says U.S. Is Behind It "100 Percent"; Trump Links Tylenol & Autism Despite Inconclusive Evidence; NYT: Trump Border Czar Accepted Bag Of $50K In FBI Sting; Harris Revisits Infamous Moment On ABC's "The View"; Armed Group Disavows Trump Peace Deal, Will Keep Fighting. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 23, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks to my panel. Thanks to all of you at home for joining. If you miss any of today's show, you can always catch up by listening to The Arena's podcast. You can scan the QR code below on your screen. Follow wherever you get your podcast.

You can also follow the show on X and Instagram. We are at thearenacnn. Erica Hill is standing by. She is in for Jake Tapper. Hi, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. Nice to see you, my friend.

HUNT: Nice to see you, too.

HILL: We will see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: Have a great show. HILL: Thanks.

[17:00:40]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump just flipped the script on Russia's war in Ukraine. The Lead starts right now.

Ukraine can win, that is the new message from President Trump just weeks after rolling up a red carpet for Russia's Vladimir Putin. So what changed? Plus, the response after the president ripped into world at the United Nations. And the FDA's actual message to doctors on autism and Tylenol, far different than President Trump's. We're paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta to help sort out what's actually new here.

And former Vice President Kamala Harris back on "The View," how she addressed that cringeworthy moment from her last appearance at the table.

Welcome to the Lead. I'm Erica Hill in for Jake Tapper. And we begin with our world lead, which was a world wallop, frankly, from President Trump. His address to the United Nation's General Assembly today, an airing of grievances big and small, light on diplomacy and also at times light on the facts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whoever is operating this teleprompter is in big trouble. It's time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now. See, I can tell you, I'm really good at this stuff, your countries are going to hell.

Whatever the hell happens, there's climate change. It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Now, when it came to foreign policy, what most U.S. presidents would typically use that U.N. podium to speak about, Trump used his oft repeated claim that he has ended several wars, spending though just a few minutes addressing the wars he has promised to end but are still raging. On the Israel-Gaza conflict, Trump said countries recognizing a Palestinian state are rewarding Hamas terrorists. On Ukraine, Trump chastised European countries for buying Russian oil. But then a short time later, he posted this on Truth Social, quote, "After getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation, and after seeing the economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form."

Let's get to all this. Joining us, CNN's Bill Weir here in New York, Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon and Senior White House Correspondent Kristen Holmes joining us from D.C.

So, Kristen, I want to begin with you. I think that huge shift there was sort of what we felt in the speech and then all of a sudden the shift in terms of Ukraine, in terms of what the president was posting on Truth Social, the question now, does this translate, I guess, into direct U.S. action?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And Erica, that's just not something that we can guess on because for months now we have heard from White House officials who say that President Trump is on the verge of sanctions. He's closer than he ever has been to action against Russia, only to then have him pull back, have him say it's about brokering a peace deal, have him set up a meeting with Vladimir Putin on U.S. soil. So in terms of whether or not this translates to action is unclear.

It's also unclear if this is just President Trump trying to kind of twist a knife into Vladimir Putin. It should show you, it should show you how poorly these talks are going in terms of peace talks. We know they have completely stalled, we know that the Russian president has not set up any kind of a meeting with the Ukrainian president, which was supposed to be the next step weeks ago now, so this could be President Trump posturing, showing that he is not -- he is willing to change course if needed, because keep in mind, this is something we have never heard from him. I mean, we've heard a lot of different things when it comes to Russia and Ukraine, we've never heard this idea that Ukraine could win. In fact, he was at one point, as we know in that famous meeting was Zelenskyy saying, you don't have the cards, and since then it's all been about peace. So this is a complete change on his rhetoric.

Unclear if it's supposed to be in terms of actions right now or if it's just posturing on his behalf.

HILL: Right, which is such an important point.

Natasha, there was also one moment when Donald Trump did push back on Russia this afternoon, saying that he thought NATO should shoot down any Russian jets that violate member countries airspace. That too is getting a lot of attention.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And he's certainly not alone on that. NATO has experienced approximately three Russian violations of its airspace in just the last two weeks alone, including in Poland and Estonia. And several NATO countries have now come out and said, look, next time Russia does this, we are going to take action and shoot down, whether it's Russian drones or Russian jets, we are going to respond forcefully.

[17:05:06]

As of right now, leaders in the U.K., Poland, Turkey, Latvia, they have all said that we are going to respond with force if Russia again invades our -- our sovereignty, our sovereign airspace. And the Polish foreign minister, we should note, was very strong, saying that, quote, "If another missile or aircraft enters our space without permission, either deliberately or by mistake, and gets shot down and the wreckage falls on NATO territory, please don't come here to whine about it. You have been warned." They said that to the Russians. That is a sentiment that was approved of by Trump's special envoy for Ukraine, General Keith Kellogg.

So clearly the U.S. getting on board with that idea. But it's worth noting that with the incident that happened with the Russian jets flying into Estonian airspace without permission last week, it's still unclear what the intention actually was. And we reported earlier today that the top U.S. general in Europe actually told a meeting of NATO allies that that was likely accidental. Russian pilots are not very well trained, there was a lot of cloud coverage, but still the Europeans are saying, look, regardless of whether this is accidental or deliberate, we view it as a provocation. And the U.S. is saying, look, do what you have to do.

If you have to shoot them down, then we're on board with that, too. Erica.

HILL: Yes, also this is a significant statement. And I also want to -- Bill, there was a lot that happened today, as we know. Bill, the -- the president really went off your climate change hard, calling it the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world. Here's a little bit more of what he had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Germany was being led down a very sick path, both on immigration, by the way, and on energy. They went back to where they were with fossil fuel and with nuclear, which is good. They were going all green. All green is all bankrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So help me with a little fact check here, if you would, Bill. Number one, has Germany actually done away with renewables as Trump suggested? And are fossil fuels actually cheaper?

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: No and yes. No, Germany runs about gets about 60 percent of their electricity from sun and wind and other renewable sources. The United States is 16 percent. A couple of years ago, Germans did vote to get off of nuclear power. They shut those plants down, unlike their neighbors in France who added more.

But that meant just a little bit more gas use, no more coal use. They've managed to get by without Russian gas during the Ukraine war there. So it's just not true, the country's on track to get 80 percent of their electricity by renewables in just five years. And they want to eventually get the whole country net zero, I think by 2080 or so.

But more than that, Erica, is, you know, who does believe in climate change and is acting like it is Xi Jinping in China, which in the last six months added more solar, twice as much solar than Germany has had at all time, and they used to be the leaders and more than the United States has added all time. And so you just have to imagine -- you got to put yourself in the seats of those other world leaders where their scientists, they still live on planet Earth and are telling them the ravages of what's happening listening to Donald Trump say those things akin to trying to convince them that gravity isn't real. It was really astounding.

HILL: Yes, it certainly was. And there were several moments throughout the speech when he went after different elements of it.

Kristen, I also want to ask you quickly, the White House called for an investigation, as I understand you, an escalator malfunction at the United Nations today an investigation?

HOLMES: Escalator gate 2025. Now, what seemed to be a mishap or a malfunction when President Trump and the first lady stepped onto that escalator, it stopped going. And now what we're hearing from the press secretary is this call for an investigation if this was, in fact somebody intentionally doing that. The press secretary posting an article or at least a sweet screenshot of an article in a British newspaper, the Times, that said that some U.N. staffers had been joking about turning off the escalator and the elevators and then just telling President Trump, oh, it's because we're out of money. She posted that with this call for some sort of investigation and calling for anyone involved to be fired.

HILL: All right. Well, we'll be watching this space for more on escalator gate 2025. Thank you all. We're going to continue to dive into some of these comments that we've heard from President Trump today, including this twist on the Russia's war in Ukraine and why he thinks now today he's saying he believes Ukraine can win.

[17:09:29]

Plus, as two major local T.V. station groups refused to air Jimmy Kimmel's return to late night, the response that's getting from the head of the FCC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: We're back in our world lead with an apparent change of tune for President Trump when it comes to Russia's brutal war on Ukraine. After months of pushing and failing to get Russia and Ukraine to a peace deal, Trump conceded today, quote, "After getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation," putting that out there. He went on to say that he thinks Ukraine should continue to fight. He thinks Ukraine can win and return to the borders from where the war started.

Joining us now, Hagar Chemali. She hosts a world news show on YouTube called "Oh My World." She also served as the former spokeswoman for the U.S. Mission to the United Nations. It's so good to have you here today.

That 180, especially after, frankly, a very long speech from the president at the U.N. General assembly that was a little bit light on foreign policy, if you will, to see that from this president. This frankly, 180. What do you think may have changed for Donald Trump? Because there are conversations that happen at this event behind the scenes.

HAGAR CHEMALI, HOST, "OH MY WORLD": Yes. Quite a 180. If you think about where we started that disastrous meeting in the Oval Office, right? You know, he's clearly getting frustrated with Putin and sees that Putin is doubling down no matter what. And every time he tries to even negotiate or invite him to Alaska, for example, or say, I'm going to -- I'm going to impose all these sanctions on you. He imposed secondary sanctions on India for Russian oil, right?

[17:15:03]

There's still more you could do there. But the point is he is pursuing all these incremental steps and seeing that there's no change in Putin's behavior. On the contrary, there were those drones that went into Poland, and that was very clearly deliberate. And so he's singing a different tune now. I mean, now you saw this meeting with the -- the Ukraine -- Ukrainian and U.S. flags.

He's saying about Zelenskyy, this is a great guy and he has this fight. And, you know, it's quite a 180 but it's because he's not seeing Putin shift. At the same time, there are more costs. He needs to communicate to Putin the costs or not communicate, I mean, through actions show to put. HILL: Right.

CHEMALI: Or not communicating, I mean, through actions show to Putin there are more cost.

HILL: Well, and that's the thing, we've heard words in the past, that's important to note. The president had said he's frustrated with Vladimir Putin in the past, but there have not been actions to back up those words.

CHEMALI: Yes.

HILL: So it'll be interesting to see if this, in fact, right, if this translates to other action. You know, you've spent a fair amount of time, I will say, at the U.N. General Assembly, I know you've said it's sort of like the prom in some ways for foreign policy fans, the president also spent a lot of time bashing the U.N. today. Here's some. In case people missed it, here's some of what he had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: All they seem to do is write a really strongly worded letter and then never follow that letter up. It's empty words, and empty words don't solve war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Is there any truth to that and -- and the relevance of the United Nations in 2025?

CHEMALI: So to answer your first question, I'm going to be very blunt on this, yes, there is truth to that. And -- and I -- I had it when -- you know, I faced it when I was working there. For 20 years I've noticed this at the U.N. Dating back to when I started in my career in foreign policy. And it is known, by the way, and this is something that you -- a complaint you hear from all foreign policy experts, those on the left, those on the right, that the U.N. is ineffectual. It is very bloated. It -- especially the U.N. in New York City, though I want to be very clear, I'm talking about the U.N. operations in New York City, which one hand is bloated.

It's a lot of reports. It's a lot of hobnobbing and elbow rubbing and no action. And you're seeing it face this existential crisis, right? You've got Russia with a veto on the U.N. Security Council. So nothing happens on Ukraine, nothing happened on Syria during the civil war and so on.

But I don't -- but I want to separate the U.N. agencies in the field, many of them, the World Food Program and many others, UNICEF and so on, that do amazing work. And so there is this sense and this frustration that, yes, the U.N. needs to be reformed and it is bloated. It kind of needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt. And that's where I would answer my -- your second question, which is I'm a big believer that the U.N. is needed, without a doubt, but it's not working for today's world and it needs to change.

HILL: We only have about 30 seconds, do you think there, realistically, any of that change will come to pass? Is there enough of a push to maybe burn it down to the ground or at least some reform?

CHEMALI: There is a lot of frustration and they've been talking reform forever.

HILL: Yes.

CHEMALI: I will tell you, so the U.S. has withheld a lot of funding.

HILL: Yes.

CHEMALI: I don't normally love that, but I will say it is forcing the U.N. to -- to restrategize, to cut back on staff and offices and, you know, and that can force ultimately a rejiggering of the organization. So we'll have to see.

HILL: We'll see. Good to see you. Thank you.

CHEMALI: Thank you.

HILL: Well, Trump and Tylenol, how his stern message for pregnant women does not quite align with reality. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here next to share some very important health information and also to correct the misinformation. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:22:18]

HILL: In our health lead, we're following up on President Trump's repeated warnings yesterday that taking Tylenol or acetaminophen during pregnancy maybe linked to autism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Don't take Tylenol if you're pregnant and don't give Tylenol to your child when he's born or she's born, don't give it. Just don't give it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That message from the president going much further than the guidance from the FDA, the doctors, which reads, and I'm quoting it here, "In the spirit of patient safety and prudent medicine, clinicians should consider minimizing the use of acetaminophen during pregnancy for routine low grade fevers."

The Trump administration had based its recommendation in part on a recent Harvard survey of 46 previously published studies. The co- author of that meta-analysis telling CNN that the review found evidence of, quote, "an association between exposure to acetaminophen during pregnancy and increased incidence of neurodevelopmental disorders in children." But it adds importantly, "This association is strongest when acetaminophen is taken for four weeks or longer."

And also goes on to then mirror the FDA's guidance noting, "Patients who need fever or pain reduction during pregnancy should take the lowest effective dose of acetaminophen for the shortest possible duration after consultation with their physician." We're paging CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta on this.

Sanjay, President Trump's words off script from what we've learned had a lot of people reeling, frankly, freaked out, and doctors like yourself working overtime to calm some of those fears. What are the facts, first of all, when it comes to autism and the use of acetaminophen?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the facts are that this has been something that people have been looking at for quite some time. So there was no new data or evidence presented, which I think is really important because some pretty significant conclusions as you just alluded to were being made. But this isn't -- this isn't new. Going back some 20 years -- there's -- this is -- this association between Tylenol and autism is something that's been -- been considered. Now, I will say over the last decade or so, importantly, Tylenol use in women during pregnancy has gone down even as autism rates have gone up, just -- just something to sort of bear in mind as we think about this.

One of the challenges with association studies, Erica, is something known as the paradox of ubiquity, which basically means if something is really common, you can associate it with just about anything. So you really got to drill down on these studies. And that's what they did in this Sweden study that I think we talked about a little bit yesterday. Basically 2 million children, 25 yearlong study, about 180,000, 200,000 roughly women took Tylenol during pregnancy in this study and then they compared siblings in situations where they were not exposed to acetaminophen. And basically the conclusion was there was no associated or increased risk of autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders.

[17:25:13]

That's why you do the big study, because there was enough signals from these association studies in the past to sort of do a study like this. So, you know, to calm people down, I -- I -- I sort of remind them of that. And also that, you know, close to more than half the women in the United States have taken Tylenol during pregnancy. And obviously that is much higher than the rates of autism.

HILL: So -- so at the end of the day, when people are looking at this, Sanjay, can we trust what the FDA is saying then?

GUPTA: So this is what's interesting is, I think, you know, a lot of people obviously, understandably paid attention to the president's words where he said, do not take Tylenol. What we subsequently heard from the FDA and a lot of other medical associations was a much more sort of tempered down sort of message there, which is the same message, incidentally, that people have been saying for a long time when these associations between Tylenol and autism started to -- to come about. And that is to, you know, be judicious about this. Take the lowest dose for the shortest amount of time. And that -- that has been the -- the advice for some time. Keep in mind, when it comes to things like aspirin and ibuprofen, those are known to have some side effects when it comes to pregnancy, Tylenol is really the -- the -- the safest option. But even then, taking any medication during pregnancy in consultation with your doctor at -- at the lowest dose for the shortest amount of time.

HILL: Yes. One of the other statements that is certainly getting a lot of attention that the president made when he said that women should -- should not take Tylenol even if they have a fever, they should just try tough it out. Just remind us, what are the risks during pregnancy if a fever is not treated?

GUPTA: Yes. So, you know, a fever is a -- is a concern for sure, always, but certainly during pregnancy. So this is something obstetricians take very seriously. Fever typically over 101.5, over 102 degrees Fahrenheit. There's risks to that, including risks of birth defects, risks of miscarriage and risks of neural tube defects as well, neurodevelopmental defects.

So, there's real concerns. But -- but again, it's a balance. You know, in one of the studies you cited where they said you really did not see a problem with Tylenol use until people took it for a month or longer. In that same study, they found a beneficial effect when Tylenol was taken for seven days or less, meaning that the fever treatment was -- was really critically important.

HILL: Yes. Before I let you go, the FDA also recommends now this use of a new treatment for autism. Can you just explain that to us and -- and what we know about how effective it is?

GUPTA: Yes. So, Erica, this is something you probably are familiar with when your prenatal vitamins had folate in it, it's a type of B vitamin. One of the things they have found is that for some reason, in a certain percentage, 50 percent, 60 percent, maybe even 70 percent of children with autism, they seem to have trouble transporting folate into certain areas of the brain or into the brain. This is a type of B vitamin, leucovorin, it's called, that actually can -- it's reduced, meaning it can transport more easily in the body. And there have been small studies at this point showing children who over 12 weeks became verbal while taking this medication.

Small studies, we're not sure everyone will benefit. There are people who have this deficiency who do not have autism, people who have autism do not have a deficiency, so it's not perfect, but this is certainly one of those areas we're studying.

HILL: Yes. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always appreciate it, my friend. Thank you.

GUPTA: You got it, Erica. Thank you.

HILL: And Sanjay is also taking your questions on this topic. So just scan that QR code that you see on your screen right now and you can submit a question. Dr. Sanjay Gupta will be back this week to answer some of those viewer questions.

[17:28:58]

So is it case closed? Turns out, not so fast. The demands today in Congress for more information about that alleged connection between a bag of cash and Trump's border czar.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump's borders czar, Tom Homan, denying any wrongdoing after reports that he accepted $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: Look, I did nothing criminal. I did nothing illegal. And it's hit piece after hit piece after hit piece. And I'm glad the FBI and DOJ came out and said, and, you know, said that nothing illegal happened and nothing, you know, no criminal activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: "The New York Times" reports Homan took the money in exchange for agreeing to help win federal contracts in Trump's second term. Now, House and Senate Democrats want to hear why Justice -- Justice Department closed that investigation this year. And they also want access to any recordings of Homan allegedly taking the money.

Joining me now is Mark Greenblatt, former Inspector General for the Interior Department. Mark, good to have you here. So both the FBI and the Justice Department say there's no credible evidence of any criminal wrongdoing. There could, though, be an independent watchdog, maybe the Inspector General of the Justice Department, who could look into it to verify it. In your view, is that worth it at this point? What would that -- what would that offer up?

MARK GREENBLATT, FORMER INTERIOR DEPT. INSPECTOR GENERAL: Absolutely. I think that would be the great, the value that the Inspector General can bring to this very type of allegation is that -- is that transparent, independent view. Here's the problem, though. Under the Inspector General Act, there's a special carve out for these very types of matters that sends those not to the I.G., but to the Office of Public Responsibility.

[17:35:02]

Here's the problem with that. That office reports to the attorney general. So then you have a situation in this case where the attorney general and her staff would be essentially investigating itself as opposed to an independent body like the Inspector General. That's the key problem here, is that there isn't that -- that angle of transparency and independence that the Inspector General can bring.

HILL: This has quite the headline, right? That certainly makes you stop a bag of cash, $50,000. But our own legal analyst, Elie Honig, pointed out just how difficult it would be to prove bribery, to prove intent here, especially considering that there were recent Supreme Court rulings, right, which make it a really high bar for what constitutes bribery. So there would have had to be a -- there would have had to have been a very clear case here.

GREENBLATT: Erica, you're completely right. Elie is completely right. And I would defer to him as longtime prosecutor on those specific legal aspects that this -- the Supreme Court over the years has narrowed and raised the bar, as you say, on what constitutes bribery. And -- and the other problem here is that we don't know what official actions, if any, Mr. Homan took while in office.

It's one thing to -- to talk about it beforehand. It's another thing to do it while in office. That seems to be a key gap here, a key void in the evidence. There may be evidence. We don't know. That hasn't come to light publicly. But that would be the key thing is, did he take official actions to help these purported executives who are actually FBI under under -- undercover officers?

HILL: When it comes to the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, what are the kind of investigations, right, that they would oversee that the inspector general at the Justice Department would not?

GREENBLATT: Right. So they do anything where DOJ personnel, this is attorneys, law enforcement personnel are litigating, investigating or providing legal advice with respect to -- to matters under DOJ's jurisdiction. That's going to go to OPR by law under the Inspector General Act. It must go to OPR. The inspector general does other kinds of misconduct, but that special carve out prohibits them actually from looking at -- at, you know, in this case, prosecutors or investigators that are providing advice to -- to -- to more senior folks at the department or the department senior leadership making decisions that would be at OPR rather than OIG.

And I worked in the OIG, you know, one of the primary offices that deals with these investigations. And -- and we take that carve out very, very seriously.

HILL: Mark Greenblatt, great to have you here, thank you.

GREENBLATT: Thank you.

HILL: Former V.P. Kamala Harris back on "The View" today for the first time since uttering your phrase, many say, hurt, they have even doomed her presidential campaign. Why she used it again today. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:42:09]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You've not held back your criticisms of President Trump today. Do you think that there's anything he's done right since coming back into office? Does anything come to mind?

KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, I -- nothing comes to mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Former Vice President Kamala Harris there, making her first appearance back on "The View" today, since that infamous moment featured in attack ads during the 2024 campaign, this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years?

HARRIS: There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of, and I've been a part of -- of -- of most of the decisions that have had impact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: My panel joins me now. So as we look at this, Kamala Harris out on this book tour, obviously she's promoting her memoir, "107 Days." She's going to be opening herself up to criticism, which is going to come, understandably, including maybe why she had not spoken up sooner, talking to former President Biden, telling him he shouldn't run for re-election. Christine, what does she actually get out of this moment? How is she setting herself up, especially in a book that -- that, you know, where she does pull some punches? I mean, there's still some questions, but she goes there in some parts.

CHRISTINE QUINN, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, WIN: If she is thinking seriously about running for president, I don't understand this book because, one, I would never have a phone conversation with her that I didn't want to go out in public because she clearly doesn't hold conversations privately.

Two, although to some degree on the Rachel Maddow interview last night, she tried to take personal responsibility on Biden. But really in the book, she mostly blames other people. You know, that kind of victim-type role doesn't translate well. People don't want that in a leader.

Now, if she's done and this is just a truth-telling and a kind of a cathartic processing, then fine. Though generally, as a Democratic leader, I don't like airing dirty laundry in public. I'd rather keep family things within the family.

HILL: Keep it within the family. And in terms of whether is she going to run, will she, won't she, of course, that's one of the main questions that she's getting. She has said that her focus right now, right, her focus is she's on her book tour, not a denial. But, S.E., what's -- what's your take on that? How do you see, could this in any way help her politically or is the airing of the dirty laundry perhaps not so helpful?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I -- I -- I feel for my friend, Christine, because she's right. This is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable for Democrats to watch a one-time star of the party, maybe a future star of the party, really air this dirty laundry. But I see it a little differently.

I think if she is going to mount another presidential campaign, one that is entirely her own, and without all the baggage of the previous administration, she had to shed some of this stuff and she couldn't do it halfway. She had to say, listen, a lot of things went wrong here and I was aware of them. Whether people are going to buy that or not is another question. But I don't think she could not acknowledge some of the stuff that happened and the damage that was done to her ticket and to the Democratic Party if she wants another shot at this.

[17:45:29]

Now, she's got a lot of work to do, but I think this might be a first step in like 100 steps that she would need to -- to take over the next few years to put herself in a good position to -- to run again. And I think echoing some of the stuff that our -- our own Jake Tapper had in his book kind of solidifies there was -- this was the story. This was the story of the 2024 election. Biden should not have run. She was aware of that and she was sort of dealing the cards she was -- she was dealt.

HILL: Yes. I also do want to get your take on. Of course, we're counting down to Jimmy Kimmel tonight, or at least I am. I'm going to tape it because I have to get up early. But anyway, in terms of that, I -- I was struck by some of the comments, right. So Sinclair and Nexstar Media Group have said they are not going to air it. They're going to keep the show off the air for their affiliate stations that they own. I was struck by this comment because it was so welcomed by FCC Chair Brendan Carr.

He posted on social media saying, they, being Democrats, simply can't stand that local T.V. stations for the first time in years stood up to a national programmer and chose to exercise their lawful right to preempt programming. I mean, how do you take that comment? And do you anticipate anything, Christine, from viewers?

QUINN: Well, I think there's going to be ratings off the chart. I think people are going to, you know, take this --

HILL: Love or hate them, they're going to watch.

QUINN: Absolutely. It's a moment.

HILL: Yes.

QUINN: It is a moment in this country, a moment in history. You know, I think those local stations aren't standing up against, you know, the -- the parent station or the parent entity, if you will. I think they're caving in fear that if they ever need something from the FCC. If they don't put Jimmy Kimmel back on, they're not going to get it. This isn't about bravery on the part of those stations. It's about fear and the Trump administration wielding regulatory agencies like a hammer to keep people in check and to squash any voices of opposition.

HILL: I also do your take on this. I was struck by, in fact, we were on a call for the show when this e-mail crossed and I said, I can't be reading this correctly. Disney Plus is confirming that they're doing a price hike amid all of this happening FCC. You have people you have Howard Stern talking about how he's canceling Disney Plus and they're jacking the prices up a couple of dollars.

It is kind of mind boggling that nobody in the communications department, for example, said, hey, guys, maybe we should wait a couple of days.

CUPP: Yes.

QUINN: Timing is everything.

CUPP: Hold off on this one. Disney is boys -- yes, it really is. And money talks. And I think money was the impetus for the first decision and pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air. And money is the impetus for returning him. Disney is it stands to lose $3.8 billion from this boycott. Just to put that in perspective, you remember the Bud Light controversy with Dylan Mulvaney? They lost about a billion. Anheuser- Busch did. In that -- this is poised to be almost four times as much.

So listen, local affiliates are allowed to air what they want. I have a syndicated go on local "Fox." Not every affiliate picks it up. They know their markets, that's fine. But Christine's right. I think the ratings are going to be off the charts. And I think every station manager of these affiliates is going to be like, oh, we really should air this. Just the -- the cash cow that it -- it's going to be, I think, for a while at least is really, I think, hard to resist.

HILL: Christine Quinn, S. E. Cupp, great to see you both. Thank you.

[17:49:00]

Just ahead here, a CNN exclusive, rare access to part of a country that President Trump says -- where President Trump says he solved a war. Why his claims, it turns out, don't match the reality.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Returning to our World Lead, President Trump regularly says he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for resolving conflicts, including a conflict between the African nations of Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo. He mentioned it today at the United Nations. And as I noted, it was not the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Congo and Rwanda, a vicious, violent war that was.

We settled the Congo with Rwanda. That was going on and that was a machete war. That was a gruesome war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Now, while officials of both countries did sign an agreement in Washington, D.C. last June, that deal came after an armed group known as M23, which is allegedly backed by Rwanda, took control of two major cities in the Democratic Republic of Congo, including Goma. And that group's political leader has not signed anything.

In a CNN exclusive, Larry Madowo visited Goma and spoke with him. And I do want to warn you, there are some disturbing images in his report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Democratic Republic of Congo, a militia flaunts its new army on graduation day.

These men are said to be former Congolese army soldiers who laid down their arms during fierce battles for the DRC's largest eastern cities of Goma and Bukavu.

The man watching over them is Corneille Nangaa, the leader of the Congo River Alliance which includes the M23 rebel group allegedly backed by Rwanda.

The White House brokered a peace deal between the DRC and Rwanda in June but these rebels are still fighting. Rather than peace, this former election chief says he plans to take his soldiers to the capital, Kinshasa, to overthrow DRC President Felix Tshisekedi.

[17:55:13]

CORNEILLE NANGAA, AFC-M23 POLITICAL LEADER: Our aim is to go to Kinshasa. We are -- we are -- we are going to go with our Congolese people. We are Congolese. We don't benefit anything from Rwanda. And we don't need it.

MADOWO (voice-over): CNN traveled to Goma in eastern DRC to interview the M23 leader amid fresh accusations of severe human rights abuses and war crimes leveled against all sides, but especially at M23.

VOLKER TURK, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS (through translator): My team confirmed that the M23 committed widespread torture and other mistreatment, including sexual violence against detainees.

NANGAA: These are the liars. Fake reports. There's no true on that.

MADOWO: You don't agree with Human Rights Watch and the U.N.?

NANGAA: I don't agree. I reject all those reports, because they are propaganda from Kinshasa and they are being paid -- they have been -- they are being paid for that.

MADOWO (voice-over): The eastern DRC, which shares a border with Rwanda, has been mired in conflict for more than 30 years since the Rwandan genocide. It is one of the most complex and protracted crises in the world, stemming from colonial era border disputes, ethnic tensions and fought over its large deposits of minerals that are crucial to 21st century technology. The Rwandan government denies backing M23, though U.N. experts and much of the international community believe Rwanda supports the rebels. M23 first seized Goma in 2012 and this January took it again. This time, the rebels say they will not withdraw so easily.

MADOWO: Would you accept a peace deal that requires you to withdraw from these areas you currently control?

NANGAA: When we are here, we address the root causes of the crisis. Then we drop everything and everything is done.

MADOWO: President Trump said that they are getting minerals as part of this deal.

NANGAA: Tshisekedi doesn't have any mining -- a mining site.

MADOWO: So President Tshisekedi has no minerals to give to the U.S.

NANGAA: He doesn't have it. He's a crook.

MADOWO: Are you suggesting that President Tshisekedi is manipulating President Trump with minerals?

NANGAA: This is what he's trying to do.

MADOWO: Will it succeed?

NANGAA: I don't know.

MADOWO (voice-over): Goma International Airport has been closed since M23 took over. They accused Congolese troops of leaving behind mines and booby traps.

MADOWO: One of M23's biggest trophies is this Russian-manufactured fighter jet, which they say they took over as the Congolese army fled the city. That fighter jet is used to fly these rocket heads. And you see some of them have been used, some are still active. All abandoned as the city was getting liberated according to the M23.

MADOWO (voice-over): On the streets of Goma, life has largely returned to normal since January's fighting. At this busy market, people declined to speak on camera for fear of being targeted.

Twenty-eight million people, nearly a quarter of the population in DRC, required urgent food assistance as of mid-2025, according to the World Food Programme. It told CNN the escalation of violence following the M23 takeover of Goma and Bukavu has, "severely disrupted humanitarian operations."

The sound of gunfire may have calmed in Goma, but lasting peace still seems a long way off. M23 are so far not even party to the White House agreement.

MADOWO: Will you recognize any peace deal signed at the White House?

NANGAA: I don't recognize Tshisekedi regime. So whatever he signed, I'm not concerned. He's illegitimate. He cannot represent DRC. So whatever they sign over there, and so far as we are not part of it, we don't care. I don't recognize it.

MADOWO (voice-over): M23 consider themselves revolutionaries, not rebels. And it seems even U.S. negotiated peace agreements won't stop them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADOWO: Erica, a spokesperson for the Democratic Republic of Congo government told CNN that it rejects the baseless accusations that Congolese troops left behind mines and booby traps as they left the Goma International Airport. The spokesperson also saying that the peace deal signed in Washington under the accompaniment of President Donald Trump does not include the sell-off of Congolese minerals. That's an important clarification, according to them.

President Felix Tshisekedi speaks here at the U.N. General assembly this week. President Paul Kagame of Rwanda is not due to be coming to New York. So it's not clear when this White House formalization of the peace deal between the two leaders will happen. But whenever it does happen, it will have no impact on the ground because as the rebels told us, they will keep fighting and they will go to Kinshasa to overthrow the government of President Tshisekedi. Erica?

[18:00:08]

HILL: Such important reporting. Larry Madowo at U.N. Headquarters in New York, thank you.