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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Sources: Comey Indictment Could Come As Soon As Today; Rep. James Walkinshaw (D-VA), Is Interviewed About Jeffrey Epstein, Epstein Case Files, Republicans, House Floor Vote, WSJ Report; Epstein's Estate Hands Flight Logs, Messages, Cash Transactions, Schedule Info To House Oversight Committee; Sources: Top GOP Allies Working To Stop Epstein House Floor Vote; WSJ Report Dives Into White House Response To Epstein Scandal; FBI: ICE Facility Shooting Was "Months In The Making"; FBI's Patel: Shooter Hoped To give ICE Agents "Real Terror"; Shooter Used Apps Created To Track Immigration Agents; Shooter Used Apps Created To Track Immigration Agents; CNN Presses Hamas Official On Horrors Facing Palestinians; Oklahoma School Chief Resigns After Controversial Tenure; ABC Veterans: Make It Clear That ABC News And Disney Will Not Be Silenced. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 25, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Listening to what the president was doing there. He also talked a little bit about TikTok. But for now, I want to thank my panel for being here. I want to thank you at home for watching as well.

If you missed any of today's show, you can always catch up by listening to the Arenas podcast. Just scan the QR code below. Follow along wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow our show on X and Instagram. It's at thearenacnn.

And Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead." Hi, Jake. JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. How you doing?

HUNT: Very well. I hope you have a wonderful show.

TAPPER: Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a lovely evening. We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: See you tomorrow.

[17:00:32]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Apparently, not everyone at the Justice Department is all in on charging James Comey. The Lead starts right now.

Latest news is the Attorney General Pam Bondi is not so certain about prosecuting the former FBI director James Comey, at least at this hour. And it turns out Comey's not the only Trump opponent who could face charges. As soon as this week, what else sources are telling CNN? Plus, brand new Epstein documents turned over to Congress. Flight logs, messages, cash transactions, we're going to talk to a lawmaker whose committee obtained all this new material.

And historic settlement, Amazon ordered to pay a whopping $2.5 billion to settle allegations of tricking customers into paying for its prime delivery service. How you might be able to get a cut of that money.

Welcome to the lead. I'm Jake Tapper. The lead tonight, the pressure on Attorney General Pam Bondi from Trump to bring charges against James Comey. Sources tell CNN that the former FBI director could be indicted as soon as today. Trump weighed in on the pending decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're going to make a determination. I'm not making that deter -- I think I'd be allowed to get involved if I want. Comey is a bad person. He's a sick person. I think he's a sick guy, actually.

He did terrible things at the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Sources say Bondi and other federal prosecutors are concerned about the potential charges, which apparently center on whether Comey lied to Congress in 2020 about his handling of the investigation into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election. Right now, it's uncertain what the specific charges would be and which parts of Comey's testimony the Justice Department could be looking at. For example, there is this exchange with Senator Ted Cruz about whether Comey stood by his 2017 testimony that he had never leaked to the press about the Russia investigation or the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): What Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who's telling the truth?

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, Andy McCabe, the deputy FBI director at the time, had said that he thought Comey had authorized him. And it seems unlikely that this -- he said -- he said about whether Comey authorized McCabe to disclose to reporters that there was an investigation into the Clinton e-mail server, it's unclear that's going to be enough for an indictment. And sources tell me that the FBI has not even talked to Andy McCabe about this current investigation. There are, however, a handful of other FBI leak investigations, ones that went nowhere, including one called Tropic Vortex. The former U.S. attorney for Virginia did not think there was enough evidence to bring charges against Comey.

However, he's gone, we shall see if the hand-picked Trump loyalist Lindsey Halligan feels differently. Here with me now, CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez.

Evan, what are you hearing right now from your sources about the -- when this indictment could come and the reservations that we're hearing that maybe Attorney General Pam Bondi has.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, so the -- the courthouse is going to be closed very, very shortly, probably in a couple minutes, and so if something has happened today, we will find out very soon. There was a grand jury there today that would have been -- that would have been the one that would have taken a -- taken a look at this -- taken -- taken -- taken a presentation from the U.S. attorney. Now, the question is who presented the case if they -- if they did go forward with this, Jake, because there are those reservations that have been voiced by some of the career prosecutors in the office who viewed that there were problems with the case, who -- who expressed those views that there were problems with this case. And some of them were obvious, you just -- you just listed some of them, right? The question of whether there was intent to make false statements, whether they, whether the false statements were material, those are all things that are taken into consideration, which is why, you know, the fact that this -- this entire scenario has been looked at before by John Durham under Bill Barr's tenure at the -- at the Justice Department, and they didn't do it.

So we have still a few more days. The -- the statute of limitations expires on Tuesday. So if they didn't get an indictment today, they presumably could try -- again, they could bring in the grand jury on a day that the grand jury doesn't normally sit, they could call them in and try to present it if they didn't go forward with it today.

[17:05:15]

TAPPER: So the new U.S. attorney, or at least acting U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia --

PEREZ: Right.

TAPPER: -- Lindsey Halligan, who had been a Trump adviser at the White House, she had been in charge of reviewing the Smithsonian content.

PEREZ: Smithsonian, right.

TAPPER: Before that, she was a private attorney for Trump working on the classified documents case. Before that, she was an insurance lawyer. As far as I can tell, she has no prosecutorial experience. Do we have any idea if she's on board with an indictment?

PEREZ: Well, we know that she has -- now she's been briefed and she is aware of the concerns from the -- from the career prosecutors and has also voiced some of those same concerns. Obviously, she just got there. But, you know, the -- she is now the political appointee and she is going to be nominated for the job. So if there is someone who's going to do it, we expect that it would be her. So that's one of the things we were watching for today, Jake, was whether Lindsey Halligan was going to be the one that shows up at the courthouse to try to bring this case. Now, we didn't see her. It is possible that she could enter via -- from the -- from the U.S. attorney's office into the courthouse without us being able to see her. So again, right now at this point, we do not know what has transpired, but obviously she is, you know, of the view. And -- and by the way, so is the attorney general, Pam Bondi, right? She has the same concerns that this is a case that likely will fail.

It can be brought. And that's where they're at, is that they know it could be done. The problem is they know that it will likely fail when it gets before a jury.

TAPPER: I guess the question is whether the United States is their client or the president.

PEREZ: Correct.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, perjury charges seem to be what the Justice Department might be weighing against Comey here. How simple is it to get a grand jury to agree to indict someone on perjury charges? The old saw that you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, does that apply to perjury, too?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there's a lot of truth to that statement, Jake, but I would carve out perjury here. Perjury charges are notoriously difficult. Prosecutors are going to have to prove that Jim Comey lied unambiguously, that he did it intentionally. And I think part of the reason that we're hearing, reporting from Evan and others, that there's some hesitation from Pam Bondi, from Todd Blanche and others in DOJ is because it's not clear that Jim Comey committed chargeable perjury. I mean, if we look at that Ted Cruz clip that you played at the beginning of the show, Comey's testimony was, I, Jim Comey, did not leak.

Andy McCabe's testimony was Jim Comey authorized me, Andy McCabe, to leak. Those two things are not necessarily inconsistent. They can both be true. So it's not perjury if Jim Comey wasn't entirely forthcoming. It's not perjury if Jim Comey was splitting hairs.

You have to show a straight up lie. And I don't see it, based on what we know so far.

TAPPER: Is the potential flimsiness of the charges where Attorney General Bondi and other prosecutors could be getting stuck when it comes to bringing this case forward?

HONIG: Absolutely. And this is a crucial decision point that prosecutors often face. You often end up in this zone where, OK, we have enough, we could get this through a grand jury, it's a one sided process, it's a low burden of proof. But we're not so sure we're going to get a conviction at a jury trial. Longstanding DOJ principle and written policy say you are not supposed to indict a case as a federal prosecutor unless you believe you can clear the higher bar, unless you believe you can prove to a jury unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant's guilt.

So there's a lot of discretion at play here. But I think that's exactly why there is some justifiable reluctance within DOJ right now.

TAPPER: President Trump's been very public about wanting this case against Comey and others to be brought. There was this Truth Social post where he named Comey directly and called him and New York Attorney General Letitia James and Senator Adam Schiff, quote, "All guilty as hell." That was just a few days ago. Could those -- I mean, if the case was brought forward, could those comments impact the case?

HONIG: Hundred percent, yes. All of those comments, I promise you, are going in Jim Comey's lawyer's file because what they're going to do if he's indicted is very quickly, I think, make a motion to dismiss for selective prosecution. Now, that's a hard argument to make. It rarely succeeds, but that's because it's so hard to prove that there was some pressure coming from political outlets to charge this person for political reasons. But here, that True Social, I mean, it really doesn't get a whole lot clearer than that.

So if this indictment does get through a grand jury, watch for that to be the next step.

TAPPER: Also, I want to bring up the fact that sources say that senior Justice Department officials are possibly looking to charge former Trump national security adviser John Bolton this week. Bolton's been very critical of Trump. Prosecutors don't seem to have the same reservations about this case, which I think has to do with his possession allegedly of classified documents. How -- how do you see this case as relates to the others?

[17:10:01]

HONIG: It looks different to me, Jake. Yes, John Bolton is a longtime antagonist of Donald Trump both ways, but I want to wait and see the indictment on that one, because if it's related to John Bolton's book and things he put in his book, that's sort of old hat, that's already been gone over. I'm not overly concerned about that. But we've seen reporting that it's beyond that, that it's not about things that he put in his book, it's about other disclosures. So look, with all these cases, we need to wait and see the indictments, but I'm going to really keep the powder dry on John Bolton here.

TAPPER: All right, Elie Honig, thanks so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Coming up, the new fight for free speech in the wake of Jimmy Kimmel's suspension and then return to late-night. How more than 100 veterans of ABC News are trying to use their collective voice to send a message to the network's CEO or the Disney CEO rather. But first, the brand new Epstein documents that are now in the hands of Congress as CNN learns of a major operation behind the scenes to stop an Epstein vote on the House floor. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Back with the politics lead, the estate of Jeffrey Epstein, the dead pedophile, has turned over flight logs and messages and cash transition -- transactions and much more to the House Oversight Committee, according to a letter obtained by CNN. The documents come as sources say top Republicans in Congress and the White House are working furiously behind the scenes to stop a floor vote on the House -- on the floor of the House of Representatives next month, which would call on the Justice Department to release all of its Epstein case files.

[17:15:15]

Here with me is Democratic Congressman James Walkinshaw from the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Good to see you, Congressman. So the estate turned over phone message logs, a spreadsheet of handwritten messages, flight logs, cash transactions, schedule information, I don't know if you've seen any of this. What can you tell me about what you've learned so far from the trove?

REP. JAMES WALKINSHAW (D-VA) OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: So the Epstein estate has been cooperating with the Oversight Committee's investigation. We received a new batch of documents just today. I haven't reviewed them. Our committee counsel is reviewing them. I certainly look forward to -- to reviewing them.

I know we've been very focused on flight logs, on bank statements. In any scandal, you follow the money and you find the crimes. And that's what we're trying to do.

TAPPER: Are -- is the Oversight Committee going to release these, are you going to put them online so the public can take a look at them?

WALKINSHAW: In the past, if you look at the batches of documents the committee's released, Chairman Comer has posted links to them so folks can review them online. I expect the same will be done here.

TAPPER: They gave you the unredacted documents, do you think that that's how we will get to see them, too, unredacted?

WALKINSHAW: Well, certainly any information related to --

TAPPER: The victim, right.

WALKINSHAW: -- victims and survivor --

TAPPER: Of course the victim's name should be taken out. WALKINSHAW: -- survivors -- that's right.

TAPPER: Yes.

WALKINSHAW: But other than that, there should be no redactions. TAPPER: So sources tell CNN's Capitol Hill team the top Republicans are working with the White House to stop this discharge petition. So just so people understand what's going on, we've been talking about this. Tom Massie, Republican from Kentucky, did something called a discharge petition. It's when you get 218 signatures, which is a majority of the House, which then forces a bill onto the floor of the House for a vote. You only need one more.

You were the 217th. There's a new Democratic congresswoman, Congresswoman Grijalva, Congresswoman-elect Grijalva, she's not yet sworn in, but when she comes, she says she's going to sign it. Is there anything that -- that Republicans can actually do to stop this from happening? I guess they could get some of these Republicans, only like five or six, I think, or -- or maybe four or five that have signed it, I guess they could get them to take their names off?

WALKINSHAW: They could. Although I would say the four Republicans who have signed it, I think, are -- are pretty dug in. They've faced a lot of pressure already and have resisted it. If we get to 218, and we will, at some point soon, when the new member is sworn in, there will be a vote on the floor. Obviously, if it passes the House, and I expect it would, it will go to the Senate.

An important question here, I think, is if you're Donald Trump and you understand the media, you understand scandals. And what you're dealing with now is a drip, drip, drip of bad story after bad story after bad story as a result of the Oversight Committee's investigation. The smart thing to do is release the files and get it all out and get it over with. What is so bad and damaging in the files from Donald Trump's perspective that you're willing to endure bad story after bad story after bad story, which is what we're getting now?

TAPPER: I don't know. There's also no guarantee, by the way, of course, that the Senate's going to take it up or that the Senate's going to vote for it. I mean, like, you guys could get that out, you could pass it in a --

WALKINSHAW: Yes.

TAPPER: -- in a -- in a floor vote in October, and then this -- it just dies because Republicans control the Senate.

WALKINSHAW: It could. I think Republicans in the Senate would come under enormous pressure, including from their own base. A lot of folks who are most animated about this issue, most motivated to get the truth out are MAGA supporters and Republicans across the country who believed --

TAPPER: Yes.

WALKINSHAW: -- what Donald Trump and Kash Patel told them for years.

TAPPER: Did you see this White House -- I mean, this Wall Street Journal story posted last night? It's out today about the White House behind the scenes talking about the -- the Epstein scandal. And according to people familiar with Donald Trump's mindset in this Wall Street Journal story, Trump said, "People don't understand that Palm Beach in the '90s was a different time." Did you see that?

WALKINSHAW: I did -- I did see that. I was -- I was disgusted by that. May have been a different time in Palm Beach in the 1990s, but raping and abusing girls was not OK in the 1990s, whether it's in Palm beach or anywhere else. And we've seen this very cavalier attitude, a dismissive attitude, what I've termed a callous disregard for the victims and the survivors from Donald Trump and Alex Acosta and his allies in Congress. It's disgusting.

This is a very serious issue. The American people deserve to know the full truth.

TAPPER: All right, Congressman. Virginia Democratic Congressman James Walkinshaw, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

[17:19:33]

We're getting some new disturbing details about the gunman who was behind yesterday's deadly shooting at that ICE facility in Dallas, including what was in the handwritten notes that the shooter left behind. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our law and justice lead, today, new details about that deadly attack on the ICE facility in Dallas yesterday that left one ICE detainee dead and two other detainees critically wounded. This afternoon, investigators said that the gunman, Joshua Jahn, who killed himself at the scene, was a U.S. citizen. He likely acted alone. And last month legally bought the rifle he used. He also seemed to have put in a lot of planning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH ROTHROCK, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI DALLAS: He searched for information about the -- about the office building and how to track ICE agent's locations. He knew with a high likelihood ICE detainees would be transported that morning in the exact location where he was facing from his perch on a nearby rooftop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's John Miller.

And John, let's start there with the gunman's preparations. What does it tell you?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, a sniper in particular is the kind offender who naturally engages in planning. Think back to the individual who shot at President Trump in Pennsylvania or the Charlie Kirk assassination, this fits into that milieu (ph) in that, you've got to find a perch, one that has line of sight to your target, one where you won't be detected, you have to obtain the weapon, you have to understand your target timing and movement. So they believe he planned this for months. They believe he showed up at three in the morning with a ladder that he knew he needed to get to where he needed to get and that he'd probably done pre operational surveillance to pick that spot.

[17:25:18]

TAPPER: So at this afternoon's news conference, officials also confirmed what was shared in an earlier social media post by FBI Director Kash Patel, that the gunman left multiple handwritten notes, including one that reads, quote, "Hopefully this will give ICE agents real terror," unquote. And here's more from the news conference. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Photo -- ROTHROCK: The clearest motivation for this attack is -- are his own

words. In his handwritten notes he says, "I want to cause terror." He doesn't want to just impact the ICE agents and the law enforcement agents that were carrying out that mission yesterday, he wants to impact ICE agents and law enforcement across the country. Again, his words, cause terror, for those employees across the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What was your reaction to that?

MILLER: It's a clear motive. These were described as loose notes, but you know, the notes saying, you know, this was just me and my brain, this was to cause terror to ICE agents. These are people who collect a dirty paycheck was one of the things he wrote. They engage in human trafficking. So the motive is what it is.

TAPPER: Related to that, authorities went out of their way to -- to decry the demonization of ICE agents by politicians, especially repeatedly pointing out agents put themselves in the line of fire yesterday to protect their fellow employees as well as to protect the detainees. And they condemned these apps that exist out there that let people track the movement of ICE agents. I didn't even know these -- these apps existed. Tell us more about it.

MILLER: Well, these apps do exist and there are more than one. The first one was something called ICEBlock, which you can actually get in the App Store, you know, on apple.com, which is a pretty mainstream place. But the -- the apps were originally meant by people who are concerned with migrants understanding where ICE agents would be operating so they could avoid those areas or have advance notice. I don't think that they were ever meant to target ICE agents for violent attacks, and yet in this case, that's exactly how they were used.

TAPPER: CNN's John Miller, thanks so much.

Ahead, a rare interview with a senior leader of the group Hamas, labeled a terrorist group by the United States. CNN's Jeremy Diamond challenged him on Hamas' responsibility for what is happening to the Palestinian people in Gaza. A must see conversation. We'll have it here on The Lead next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:31:49]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We had a very good meeting with the representatives of the most powerful countries in the Middle East, and I think we're going to be close to a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: President Trump today projecting confidence, again, about bringing an end to the Israel-Hamas war. Today, the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, appeared via video before the United Nations in New York after the Trump administration denied his visa. Abbas insisted that Hamas would not have a role in governing a future Palestinian state.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond had a rare opportunity to sit down with a senior leader of Hamas in Doha, Qatar. It's a man that Israel tried to kill just two weeks ago, and Jeremy challenged this individual on the horrors that Hamas, a group labeled terrorist by the U.S., has brought on the Palestinian people and stalled negotiations to end this war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly two years after Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, Gaza has paid a massive price. The devastation rivaled only by the suffering of its people. Israel has killed more than 65,000 Palestinians, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Hundreds of thousands are displaced and homeless. Israeli attacks are only intensifying

DIAMOND: Do you accept any responsibility for triggering so much death and destruction?

GHAZI HAMAD, SENIOR HAMAS OFFICIAL: The history did not begin on October 7th. We spent 78 years under occupation, under humiliation, under oppression, under repression, under killing, under displacement. Now why is the world focused on October 7th?

DIAMOND (voice-over): Ghazi Hamad is a senior Hamas official, sitting for his first U.S. TV interview in months.

DIAMOND: But before October 7th, Israel had never unleashed this level of death and destruction on Gaza before. How can you look at me with a straight face and tell me that you accept no responsibility whatsoever for what has happened in the two years since?

HAMAD: Look, what is the option left for the Palestinians to do? For the first time, the Palestinians have sacrificed in -- in the -- in the -- this Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

DIAMOND: What gives you the right to decide that Palestinian women and children should be sacrificed on the altar of your resistance?

HAMAD: No, all the time we are sacrificing, we are fighting. DIAMOND: But I am asking you about the civilian deaths in Gaza, and what gives you the right to decide it's a price worth paying? That child can die. It's OK. Because it's -- it's -- it's in order to fulfill our resistance.

HAMAD: As Hamas, we are fighting for the interests of the people. We don't want our people to be killed. Don't put the problem on the shoulder of Hamas. No, I think that --

DIAMOND: Sir, when I speak with Israeli officials, I press them about what they are doing in Gaza. When I'm speaking with Hamas officials, I press them for your responsibility.

DIAMOND (voice-over): But some Palestinians have had enough. Our message to Hamas is stop gambling with us, this man says. You are disconnected from reality, especially since the Hamas leadership is outside of Gaza.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to send a message to Hamas. We talk to people, talk by people. Stop the -- war. We are dying here.

DIAMOND (voice-over): But Hamad doesn't seem interested in hearing those voices.

HAMAD: I know. I -- I -- I -- I have seen. I have seen.

[17:35:01]

DIAMOND: This is not it. There's -- there's more.

HAMAD: I have seen this video. Yes, yes, yes.

DIAMOND: There is more.

HAMAD: I know people are suffering. There are some people who blame Hamas.

DIAMOND: Why will you not listen to the voices of Palestinian people in Gaza?

HAMAD: Look, look, yes, yes, I know. This is not, look, this is not the whole story.

DIAMOND: These people who want -- who want Hamas to surrender, lay down its weapons and leave the Gaza Strip. What do you say to them?

HAMAD: No -- no one asks Hamas to surrender. We will never surrender. These people are under abnormal circumstances. We will put them under target and killing and massacring. What do you expect for people to say?

DIAMOND (voice-over): Hamad is eager to tout what he calls the, quote, benefits of October 7th, in which Hamas killed nearly 1,200 people and kidnapped more than 250 others. He says it led to growing international support for the Palestinian cause. HAMAD: What -- what -- what is the benefit of October 7th now? When the world now, if you look to the General Assembly yesterday, when about 194 people opened their eyes and looked to the atrocity, to brutality of Israel, and all of them, they condemned Israel. We waited for this moment for 77 years. I think this is a golden moment for the world to change the history. I think that now the world is a change. The history is a change now.

DIAMOND: In your view, 65,000 deaths is worth it in order to achieve what you've achieved.

HAMAD: Look -- look, I know the price is so high, but I'm asking again, what -- what is -- what is the option?

DIAMOND: What is worth it?

HAMAD: What is -- what is -- what is the -- the -- the -- the option left to the Palestinians? You know what? We waited for a peaceful process, for a peaceful means, since 1940 -- 1993, since Oslo Agreement, until now.

DIAMOND (voice-over): The prospects for peace seem as far away as ever, two weeks after Israel tried to kill Hamad and other senior Hamas officials not far from where we sat down.

HAMAD: I think it is a miracle, because the -- the rockets are very close to us. We are under target, and it was a brutal attack on us. So I think it was a long and very strong message to us, and even to Qatari, that we are not interested in negotiation. We want to kill, we want to destroy, we want to assassinate. This is our own policy to handle the whole situation. Everything now is frozen.

DIAMOND (voice-over): Hamas's demands have also not shifted.

HAMAD: We insisted to go to the comprehensive deal, to retain all the hostages, either alive or dead. And we -- we said, frankly, we can return them in 24 hours. But Israel refused.

DIAMOND: Well, they have conditions for ending the war. They want Hamas to be out of power, and they want Hamas to disarm. Are you willing to abandon power in Gaza and lay down your weapons?

HAMAD: Hamas is -- is part of the -- of the Palestinian fabric. You -- you cannot exclude Hamas. But the -- but as I said again and again, regarding the ruling of Gaza, we are ready to be out of the ruling of Gaza. We have no problem with this. The arm of Hamas is a legitimate and legal weapon, which is used all the time against occupation. It is not a terrorist weapon.

DIAMOND: How does this war end? Because over the course of our conversation, I've seen very little that suggests any willingness on your part to compromise.

HAMAD: I think it is easy. I think Mr. Trump and the -- and the world could -- could ask Netanyahu in order to stop the war, to stop the genocide in Gaza. DIAMOND: Do you have any confidence that he will do that?

HAMAD: I don't know. I think we tested him many times. But I think it is not easy to trust Mr. Trump or to trust the American administration. All the time, they put the glasses of Israel. They adopt the Israeli position.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (on camera): And Jake, I also pressed Hamad on the fate of Israeli hostages a week after Hamas's military brigade said that they were spreading out the hostages throughout Gaza City amid an Israeli invasion of that city. Hamad denied that they are using them as what it appears to be, which is as human shields.

I also pressed Hamad on the conditions of the hostages. He insisted they're being treated in accordance with Islamic law. I said, if that's the case, then why not allow the Red Cross in to be able to visit them and assess their condition? He said, the situation on the ground is very complicated. Jake?

TAPPER: Jeremy Diamond in Doha, Qatar. Fantastic interview. Thank you so much.

[17:39:12]

A resignation announcement in Oklahoma from the superintendent who wanted to put a chapter of Turning Point USA, the group founded by the late Charlie Kirk, in every public high school in his state. And that was not his only controversial move. His new job, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN WALTERS, OKLAHOMA SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS: I'm excited to announce, I'll be stepping as Oklahoma State superintendent and taking on a role as a CEO of the Teacher Freedom Alliance. We're going to destroy the Teachers Unions. We will build an army of teachers to defeat the Teachers Union once and for all. So this fight is going national. And we will get our schools back on track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Our Politics Lead now. Surprise announcement last night from the only superintendent of schools that you've probably ever heard of, the one in Oklahoma, Ryan Walters. His new gig is running a conservative group called the Teacher Freedom Alliance. His resignation comes after a contentious and controversial tenure.

He called for Bibles, not just any Bibles, Trump Bibles in every classroom. He directed all schools, public schools to teach about the Bible and The Ten Commandments, the Protestant version. He created a test to weed out, quote, woke teachers. Here's now -- here is our panel. That's quite a list. I didn't even get into the videotape thing going on. It's not all Republicans in Oklahoma are sad to see him go. The Republican state attorney general posted, "ever since a Gov. Stitt appointed Ryan Walters to serve as secretary of education, we have witnessed a stream of never ending scandal and political drama. The Stitt-Walters era has been an embarrassment to our state. Even worse, test scores and reading proficiency are at historic lows."

Oh yes, those. "Gov. Stitt used to say he would make us top 10. But after seven years, were ranked 50th in education. Our families, our students and our teachers deserve so much more." Again, that is the Republican state attorney general of Oklahoma.

[17:45:04]

KAREN FINNEY, CNN COMMENTATOR: Yes.

TAPPER: Does he have a point? Should he have been the school superintendent? Should she have been more -- he should have been more focused on reading, writing, arithmetic, and not Trump Bibles?

FINNEY: Absolutely. You know, I work for the New York City public schools in the Giuliani administration and school -- the test scores matter. If the kids can't read and they can't do basic math, that's a problem. And so, you know, as somebody who apparently touted that he was going to -- they -- they basically lowered, I think, the -- the standards for what passing was, which is why apparently initially it looked like kids were doing better and they weren't.

And this, you know, it's a really important point. I mean, kids need to learn the basics. They -- it doesn't need to -- it's not shouldn't be about the Trump Bible or the that Bible or the this Bible, it should be about, are our kids getting the basic education so that they can thrive in this new economy.

TAPPER: What do you got?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm not opposed to the, you know, have some type of morality and -- and ethical teachings for our youth I think that's important.

TAPPER: Sure.

SINGLETON: But in terms of education, I agree with Karen a 100 percent I don't see this as a partisan issue I was just talking -- talking to our Jim Sciutto before we came live about China and that my concerns there particularly with education, they are leaps and bounds ahead of us and many of our Western allies, particularly in science, particularly in reading.

And so right now, Jake, if we're looking at the next 100 years of who will lead this next frontier of technological revolution, I want it to be us and not the Chinese. But if our kids can't do math, how can they compute, how can they do coding, et cetera, those are skills that are going to be necessary.

TAPPER: But can I just say one point on that? SINGLETON: Yes.

FINNEY: Yes.

TAPPER: If you were China and you wanted to make the next generation of American kids less intelligent less educated in years.

SINGLETON: TikTok.

TAPPER: What would you do, would you introduce an incredibly addicting app that highlights tension and more us conflict.

SINGLETON: Of course. That's we have TikTok.

FINNEY: Right. Well, I guess you -- I mean America's greatest vulnerability, one of them is our how divisive we are for fighting each other. We're not thinking about what are the global threats that we should be focused on. And I don't want to gloss over what was happening in Oklahoma because, you know, he was trying to push an ideology he was trying to curry favor.

TAPPER: Well, let me bring that up.

FINNEY: Yes.

TAPPER: On that point, he went before he made this announcement he went on a different show on "Fox" yesterday talking about his plan to bring a chapter of Turning Point USA, the political group that Charlie Kirk founded to every public high school in the state, here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTERS: I'm going to have them in every school because we've already got requests from every school. So that makes it very easy. What we have seen our teachers unions, woke administrators trying to block them from happening and that's what you can't do this is an organization that's about free speech, creating free thinkers patriotic Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Making sure that students can form political groups. That's great. That's wonderful. Students should have the freedom to do that. But it -- when he says every school was going to have to form one it sounded to a lot of people like, oh, you're just replacing the liberal indoctrination you complain about with right conservative indoctrination.

SINGLETON: Right. I mean if you're in California and I think most of the families, many of the families in his home state I would imagine are probably conservative.

TAPPER: Right.

SINGLETON: And so if there are many students who want to start turning point chapters, I support that.

TAPPER: Sure.

SINGLETON: I think those schools should help those --

TAPPER: If the student -- if the kids wanted to organically do it, yes.

SINGLETON: But I -- I do get nervous though about us sort of pushing certain things on people because if you have conservative families in a liberal state or blue state, I would want those liberal or blue states pushing whatever would be their alternative to TP USA. And so I would be a little worried about that support students want to start the organization's I wouldn't use compulsory force to mandate though.,

TAPPER: It is great to have speakers go to colleges conservatives liberals, whatever. I just -- I'm -- I'm coming right to you.

FINNEY: No, no. But he was a high school and so I think that's --

TAPPER: Right.

FINNEY: -- different. It's one thing when you're in college and you make the choice.

TAPPER: Yes, no, I'm sorry, I'm segwaying to the next thing.

FINNEY: Yes. OK. Sorry.

TAPPER: I agree.

FINNEY: Yes.

TAPPER: So and -- and there's a Megyn Kelly and Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin --

FINNEY: Yes.

TAPPER: I think they're filling in for Charlie Kirk for stuff he obviously can no longer attend because of the horrific assassination. So they went to an event at Virginia Tech and I'm going to show you a clip student -- a student asked Megyn Kelly why she supports a President who uses, "the rhetoric they got your friend Charlie killed." That's what the student said. Here's part of Megyn Kelly's answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, JOURNALIST: That's a blatant lie. It's a defamatory, blaspheme. And it's inappropriate. And by the way, Trump has every right to load his enemies. They try to put him in jail for the rest of his life. They tried to bankrupt him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK. So what Kelly said there, you couldn't hear because it wasn't great audio. That's a blatant lie. It's a defamatory, it's blasphemous, it's inappropriate. By the way Trump has every right to load his enemies. They try to put him in jail for the rest of his life, tried to bankrupt him and they tried to kill him that she also said. What would you think?

FINNEY: That is not the that -- there's not the values that I want kids learning, I mean we should not be teaching our kids that the person who is the president of all of the United States of America, even the 75 million people who didn't vote for him, it's OK for him to hate them. That -- that's not a good message and that is not actually, you know, free speech, free thought let's have a conversation. That is how you shut down speech and that is how you shut down conversation.

[17:50:14]

TAPPER: Well, shutting down speech is also part of free speech.

SINGLETON: Yes. Look -- look, I think she has every -- I know Megyn like or I think she has every right to defend the President, she supports the President. I remember being on your show last year talking about some of those court cases, particularly out of New York and the political implications of many of those court cases that we even had individuals like a little negative so to argue some of the stuff does appear to be a little political so the premise of Megyn's point I think is not flawed.

TAPPER: Thanks to both you.

FINNEY: Found guilty, but, well, sorry.

TAPPER: He was found guilty in those New York cases that is -- that is that is accurate.

FINNEY: I'm just saying.

TAPPER: United effort by veteran "ABC News" journalist sending a message to the network. And Disney's president or CEO after Jimmy Kimmel suspension brief as it was from late night T.V. stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:55:08]

TAPPER: In our Pop Culture Lead, Jimmy Kimmel second night back on T.V. since the suspension was lifted. Last night's monologue alone attracted nearly 6 million viewers just on YouTube despite Kimmel's return many still free feel that free speech is under attack and that too many CEOs are all too willing to bend the knee. More than 100 veterans of "ABC News" are pushing back signing a letter urging Disney CEO Bob Igerl, Disney owns "ABC" to publicly defend journalists under political attack and not buckle under pressure.

I myself I should acknowledge was a senior White House correspondent "ABC News" oh my God, who's that. Some of these I should note in this letter, all of these are longtime respected colleagues and I'm going to be joined by two of them right now. Award-winning journalist, Lisa Stark, who covered with federal regulatory agencies including aviation safety when I was there when she was there, also with us from L.A. former ABC correspondent, Judy Muller, also has her share of Emmys and Peabody's now professor emeritus at the USC Annenberg School of Journalism. So Lisa you -- you helped organize this letter why did you feel compelled to write it and get people to sign it?

LISA STARK, FORMER ABC AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we just felt that we were seeing a full sail assault on the First Amendment on freedom of the press freedom of speech and that we could couldn't sit by and stay silent anymore so we felt we needed to reach out to Bob Iger and speak publicly. And what really galvanized us was the FCC chairman's move to threaten "ABC" about the Kimmel show and then Disney's response immediately to pull Kimmel off the air for a while.

And we felt that this was a very dangerous precedent and looked as though "ABC" was bowing to political pressure and we don't see this as a political issue. It's the First Amendment, right? Kimmel even talked about that his first night back. This is an American issue. Everyone should believe in free press, freedom of free speech and we felt we could just not stay silent.

TAPPER: Yes. Republican Senator Ted Cruz said this doesn't end well for conservatives either if you give this power to presidents it will be used against them. Judy, these are the signatories of this letter are journalists who usually don't sign any petitions. They don't -- they want to avoid politics. They don't even sign, you know, people teenagers at the corner saying will you support this. No, no, no, I'm a journalist. I can't. What compelled many of them? You're professor at one of the top journalism schools in the U.S. What is all of this teaching your students?

JUDY MULLER, FORMER ABC CORRESPONDENT: Well there's a couple of questions in there. First of all, I think, they're the people who have given their lives to reporting and journalism and reporting facts and exactly they don't sign on to things like this. They want to be factual and credible and if they lose their credibility they lose everything. So by signing this and there was a rush to sign it and people are still asking to sign it which I think is really amazing.

I -- I thank Lisa and Ian for doing this because this is bigger than politics. This is about the erosion of the First Amendment freedom of expression, freedom of speech. And when I'm teaching journalism students, I want them to have jobs to go to that they can be proud of. When the Defense Department is saying reporters at the Pentagon can't report anything unless it's approved first, that's not freedom of the press. That's outrageous.

TAPPER: No, it's lunacy.

MULLER: So I think --

TAPPER: Really. I mean that -- that Pete Hegseth pushed that over the weekend. Yes.

MULLER: Right. We all had such a feeling of powerlessness watching this that when this letter came around everybody said OK at least I can say what I feel that this has, you know, Bob Iger who's the president of Disney, president of "ABC" has to stand up. Now I can't wait for Bob to respond. He hasn't yet. I'd like him to. I realize it's a big company and we now live in a world of corporate running of press. But, you know, we don't have Katharine Graham's anymore. We have Bezos. You know, it's this Bob Iger is, you know, "ABC News" is a tiny bit of Disney and that is a problem.

TAPPER: Yes.

MULLER: We don't have people who really care.

TAPPER: And Lisa, I should --

MULLER: Not to say, Bob Iger.

TAPPER: Yes. And -- and Lisa, I should note without naming them, I looked at that letter. I was happy to see so many people. It was also just like, good to see, oh, Bob Crawford, you know, people that I remembered, Tom Bettag. But there are some pretty notable people who are no longer full -- full time journalists who -- who did not sign the letter. Did they give you reasons why? Were they afraid of retaliation?

STARK: No, I don't think so. I think everyone had their own reasons for signing or not signing. I think some of the people who chose not to sign feel that they're making their own inroads privately. Some of them feel that they're still connected with "ABC" in some way or they're still a working journalist, even though if they're not at "ABC." So there were a lot of reasons that people decided that they weren't comfortable at this point signing the letter.

[18:00:11]

But as Judy mentioned, after this letter came out, we are now being inundated with "ABC News" staffers, former staffers who do want to sign this letter. So I think there is a groundswell of support within this group of former journalists who care very much about a free press and the First Amendment to come on and sign this letter.

TAPPER: We didn't know that those were the -- the glory days at "ABC News" when were there, right? I mean, Diane -- Diane and Charlie in the morning, Peter in the after -- in the evening, and Ted at night. I mean, Judy Muller --

MULLER: Yes, it's, you know, here's the thing. It isn't just former correspondents and producers and executive producers who have signed this letter. These are assistant producers, these are video editors, these are photographers and sound people. And I mean, I looked at that list and I thought, I know all these people. I work with them. This is not some big footing, big producer, correspondent thing.

TAPPER: Yes.

MULLER: This is a ground, well, of really anger and upset. And -- and that's what we are. We're angry. And we want our leaders to stand up for the First Amendment and the Constitution. Is that too much to ask? TAPPER: Well, it is not. And we hope to hear from Bob Iger soon when he responds to your letter. Judy Muller, Lisa Stark, thanks to both of you.

STARK: Thank you.