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The Lead with Jake Tapper

No Clear Path Out of Government Shutdown as Both Sides Dig in; Dow, S&P 500 Hit Record Highs as Wall Street Shrugs Off Shutdown; Nurse Shares Story of Michigan LDS Church Shooting. Pope Leo Calls Trump's Gaza Plan A "Realistic Proposal"; Climate & Pandemic Experts Wage War On Antiscience In New Book; Jane Goodall, Who Revolutionized The Study Of Primates, Dies At 91. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 01, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to the Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. I'm live on Capitol Hill.

The breaking news and the Lead tonight, nearly one full day into the partial federal government shutdown, and the political blame game is going on in full force. Right now, Democrats refusing to budge, a vast majority insisting they will never vote for a clean funding bill that the Republicans have put up unless Republicans agree to tack on subsidies that would help Americans afford Obamacare coverage, as well as if they agree to reverse deep cuts to Medicaid that were part of Trump's one big, beautiful bill.

[18:00:01]

Republican leaders insist this would grant healthcare to undocumented immigrants. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: They want to give healthcare benefits to illegal aliens. That is true. They gave us legislative text that would've undone us cutting off healthcare benefits for illegal aliens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: We're going to dive into the actual facts behind the Vice President's claim in just a second. It's not quite as simple as he's depicting it. But, first, CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House. Kaitlan, what are you hearing from your White House sources tonight about the shutdown?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, they're very much in the messaging standpoint of this. They don't believe that the shutdowns going to end in the next 24 hours or so. So, what you're seeing is their chance at messaging this and blaming this on Democrats. And that's why there was that surprise appearance by the vice president, J.D. Vance, at the press briefing scheduled today, this afternoon, where he came out and was really becoming the face for the administration on this issue, taking that message there, of course, to his colleagues, his former colleagues up on Capitol Hill, where really what the White House is hoping to do with this, Jake, is to pressure enough Senate Democrats to come to the table and vote yes on this clean funding bill to continue funding the government. And then they say they'll negotiate on things like the Obamacare subsidies later.

And so the question is whether or not they can do that. We saw a couple Democratic senators last night coming over and saying that while they're not happy to vote for this, they believe avoiding a government shutdown, or at least making one as short as possible is in the best interest of the American people. And so this is a pressure campaign by the White House that is directed pretty much at about five Senate Democrats here. And so the question is how effective that will be, how long it will last.

The White House, Jake, I'll note, I've been talking to people, they're pretty optimistic that it won't stretch much longer. They're even looking at Friday, potentially. Of course, the House is not back until next week, but that is how they are watching all of this right now from this perspective. Here at the White House.

TAPPER: Just a few minutes ago on the show Hakeem Jeffries, the House Democratic leader, said that President Trump's A.I. post depicting him with a sombrero and a mustache was not just racist, but indicative of how unserious President Trump is being right now. But, J.D. Vance, the vice president, he defended the meme.

COLLINS: Yes, Jake, listen to what he said in the briefing today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: Oh, I think it's funny. The president's joking. I mean, I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now, I make this solemn promise to you that if you help us reopen the government, the sombrero memes will stop.

Hakeem Jeffrey said it was racist, and I know that he said that, and I honestly don't even know what that means. Like is he a Mexican American that is offended by having a sombrero meme?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Obviously, Jake, you heard from Hakeem Jeffries yourself. He wasn't even saying it's just the meme and talking about how Latino groups have responded to this. He was saying he views it as unprofessional while they are in the middle of trying to come to some agreement on this. But, obviously, that is something the president has posted. He does not see any intention in backing down on that based on what we've heard from the White House and from the vice president, J.D. Vance.

But it kind of just gives you a window, Jake, into what the status of relations are between the White House and these Congressional Democrats as they are arguing over what happens next year with the government funding. TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. And Kaitlan is going to talk a little about this and much, much more, this hot mess of a shutdown. She's going to have Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett and Republican Congressman Mike Lawler. That's on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins, tonight at 9:00 Eastern on CNN.

Kaitlan, I don't know if you heard, but Hakeem Jeffries had some questions for Mike Lawler. You should bring those up in your interview with Lawler. He said, where is he on the threats to funding for the Second Avenue subway and the Hudson Tunnel? Just FYI, a little tip for you.

COLLINS: Yes, Jake. And, actually, Mike Lawler has criticized that Second Avenue subway station, but we'll see what he has to say about this. Because I think one thing that people have pointed out from that post, from the budget director, Russ Vought, those states they're targeting, is that they're all Democratic-led states, or Democratic- led cities, and, of course, there's a lot of projects like that going on in Republican states. But, clearly, that is part of that pressure campaign that I was just talking about. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Thanks so much, Kaitlan.

And joining us now here in this House office building, Congressman Tom Cole, he's a Republican from Oklahoma. He's chair of the House Appropriations Committee. So, good to have you here, sir.

REP. TOM COLE (R-OK): Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

TAPPER: So, you just heard Minority Leader Jefferies telling me he has not heard from the White House since Monday. Shouldn't there be just like constant, continuous conversations between the Democrats, the Republicans, and the White House?

COLE: Well, there are obviously quite a bit of conversations going on, but, you know, as far as the House is concerned, we've done our job. I mean, we have actually passed the legislation to keep the government, we're waiting to see what the Senate does, but that's really where the action's at. So, I don't know that the president needs to be focused a lot on House members. We've made our decision. Now, we're waiting for a reaction from the Senate.

TAPPER: So, you have said -- you've taken issue with Democrats using the shutdown as leverage on items that you say are, quote, unrelated to day-to-day government funding.

[18:05:02]

Isn't that though what Republicans did last time there was a shutdown in 2018?

COLE: It is, and it was a big mistake. And they should learn from how it worked out for us. Look, I've never been in favor of government shutdowns. I don't think they work, they never achieved the objective. And they create a lot of chaos and a lot of ill will. And I'm afraid that's what's happening now.

But I'm pretty proud of the house. We've gotten all of our bills out of committee. We've gotten 60 percent of the funding across the floor. We're in serious negotiations with our counterparts on a package of bills that we could get done and hopefully kick off a process where we actually got them finished.

But -- and, look, we've gotten a majority vote in each House, obviously not 60 in the Senate yet.

TAPPER: Yes.

COLE: But I don't blame them for chipping away at that.

TAPPER: So, you note that the appropriations process is supposed to be completed by the end of September each year before the government's fiscal year starts.

COLE: Correct.

TAPPER: And October, there are 12 separate appropriations bills supposed to be passed. Zero were passed through both chambers this year. As appropriations chair, do you take any responsibility for that?

COLE: Look, everybody has responsibility, but the reality is Congress was focused very heavily on the centerpiece of the president's --

TAPPER: One big, beautiful bill.

COLE: -- one big, beautiful bill. But we got all our bills out of committee by September. And, look, last year, I actually give the Senate a lot of credit this year. They've gotten six bills out of committee three across the floor. You know, Leader Schumer, when he actually led the Senate, didn't get a single appropriations bill passed.

So, we're moving in the right direction but we need to keep the government open, keep negotiating in good faith, find common ground. I think we can do that.

TAPPER: You've mentioned your concern for the thousands of federal workers in your home state of Oklahoma.

COLE: Yes.

TAPPER: White House Budget Chair Chief Russ Vought warned a group of your colleagues today that some of these furloughed workers can end up being permanently fired, and that could actually take place in one to two days. The White House obviously is blaming Democrats for all of this, but do you think your constituents back home care about who fault it is?

COLE: No. I think they care about their jobs and they do important work. Most of them are civilian defense workers. We also have the National Weather Center. We've got the leading groundwater research laboratory from the EPA. Those are just in my district. And then there's a substantial federal presence. So, we're concerned about that. But we know the best way to deal with that is to get the government open. Number one, if you don't want to enhance the power of the executive branch, you open back up Congress and you start passing appropriations bill.

We think we're pretty close to doing that. Unfortunately, in our view, the Democratic leadership dropped in a lot of unrelated issues. We don't have jurisdiction over Medicaid on my committee. We don't have jurisdiction over tax policy, the Obamacare related COVID era tax credits. But we do have jurisdiction over. It's the day-to-day operation of the government. We get about that, I think we solve a lot of our problems.

TAPPER: Well, you brought up the subsidies. Obviously, the Democrats have asked for a number of items. Would Republicans giving on that one issue at least remove a potential political liability in terms of the Obamacare subsidies?

COLE: Well, first of all, you know, some of those subsidies run out, Democrats actually wrote that legislation. They picked the date. The C.R. we're talking about doesn't even extend to that date. There certainly can be separate discussions on those. They don't belong in a four-week C.R. I mean, Democrats have asked Republicans to guarantee them $3.5 trillion over the next ten years for a four-week extension of funding. That's just not going to happen. It's a ridiculous thing. But if you'll let the appropriators do their work, they'll start producing real bills that fund the government and fund it for a full year instead of a few weeks.

TAPPER: Is it something that you'd be willing to have a conversation with, just as a --

COLE: Look, I'm willing to have a conversation with anybody, but I also know the limits of my jurisdiction on my committee. They don't extend into those areas. I have a vote as a member on the floor, but it's not appropriate for us to be doing these things. And Democrats in the past always were, hey, let's just keep the government open, let's keep negotiating. We can solve our problems. You know, I like that approach then even when my own party didn't take it. I think they were right then. I think they're wrong now. And I think they're creating a political crisis, quite honestly, I think partly because Senator Schumer's got some political problems from his left wing and potential challenges in his home.

And in terms of the House, again, we've done our work. We've gotten our bills done and we've gotten this extension going. And so we hope that the bipartisan majority in the Senate, that's already 55, grows to 60 and we get back to work.

TAPPER: All right. Congressman Tom Cole, thank you so much.

COLE: Hey, thanks, man.

TAPPER: Chairman, I should say Chairman Tom Cole. The White House says government layoffs from the shutdown are imminent. We've got a new glimpse into how that could compound an already stressed out job market.

Plus we're going to go live to Memphis, Tennessee, ahead of Trump's National Guard deployment there. Some residents are telling CNN it might make them feel a little safer. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:10:00]

TAPPER: And we're back live from Capitol Hill with our Money Lead. Flying blind is never fun, especially when it comes to the U.S. economy. The shutdown is expected to delay data on jobs numbers. It's a key signal for the strength of the U.S. economy or the weakness. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the U.S. economy suffered a $3 billion hit during the last government shutdown that stretched from December 2018 to January 2019.

So far, Wall Street is still shrugging off the immediate effects of the shutdown, the Dow and S&P 500 closed at fresh record-highs.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is here. She covers the cross section of business and politics. Vanessa, how else might the economy take a hit if the shutdown drags on?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, if you don't have workers getting paid, furloughed workers who may be laid off, or even those who are working but not getting paid, those Americans are likely not spending as much in the U.S. economy. So, that is going to put a dent in consumer confidence and CEO confidence.

[18:15:00]

According to the Congressional Budget Office, that will be likely one of the key impacts as consumer spending is a key economic driver.

Also, there's the possibility of about 750,000 furloughed federal employees every single day. That accounts to wages of $400 million every day that are not -- that's not going into the pockets of these federal employees. And then we've heard from the administration, President Trump, J.D. Vance, the press secretary, saying that mass layoffs are imminent and those individuals may end up winding up on unemployment in a labor market that has become much tighter.

And then, of course, there's those delayed reports from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the jobs report for September, which we are not expected to get on Friday, also key inflation data and the Commerce Department, saying that they are not going to be able to put out reports, including GDP for the third quarter, the first reading.

Jake, these are all reports that businesses try to plan off of, also the Federal Reserve tries to plan off of. There's a meeting later this month where they will decide whether or not to cut rates, but they will not have that key data that they usually turn to in order to make that decision. Jake?

TAPPER: Yes, I was expecting October 3rd, Friday, the BLS data of showing how jobs or joblessness were impacted. Is there any other way that economists are going to be able to get a glimpse into the jobs numbers?

YURKEVICH: Economists will have to turn to private sector data, including a piece of data that we received this morning. ADP payroll put out their report, which signals that the economy actually shed 32,000 jobs in the private sector in the month of September, so continuing to show a shrinking and slowing labor market. Also, there was a revision from that private sector report. Initially, it was reported that there were 54,000 jobs added in August. That number now revised down by 3,000.

But, ultimately, it's like trying to make a big decision without your playbook that you're used to. As you mentioned, Jake, investors on Wall Street, though, very much kind of shrugging off this government shutdown because they do still believe, despite the lack of data, that the Federal Reserve will go ahead and cut interest rates later this month. And that is why you saw that big hooray from investors and some more records broken on Wall Street, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Vanessa Yurkevich, thanks so much.

We're going to take you live to Memphis, Tennessee next. That's where the president is surging more federal law enforcement aiming to crack down on crime there, he says. This as Trump just said, the National Guard is now in place and yet another state. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, President Trump this afternoon posted on Truth Social saying, quote, the National Guard is now in place in Oregon. After last week, he activated members of Oregon's National Guard. Meanwhile, in Memphis, Tennessee, the secretary of war, Pete Hegseth, and the attorney general, Pam Bondi, are there as President Trump surged his federal law enforcement named at addressing violence in that city.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Let me be very clear, I am a career prosecutor, if you touch a law enforcement officer, it is a crime and you are going to jail. We are arresting anyone who touches any of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's Ryan Young is reporting from a staging area in Memphis. Earlier in the day, Ryan, you visited a neighborhood where four children were shot over 20 days. Tell me about that.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this has been a very busy day as we crisscrossed the city of Memphis, trying to track down what federal officers and local police officers are doing to try to keep people safe. There have been a lot of emotions behind this, especially in neighborhoods like the one we walked through today, where people were visibly upset about all the violence that has taken place so far.

Behind us right now, this is where the secretary of war and Pam Bondi were just over there. This is a staging area where we've seen, ATF, FBI. It's been an alphabet soup of law enforcement as we've seen them get ready and go out and make runs throughout the day. We know more than 50 arrests were made just last night, 20 guns taken off the street in the last 48 hours.

You see people like this who behind me with this sign. He has it on both sides. If you can flip it around and show what he's saying, he's hoping that this action by Trump will help make this city safer. Take a listen to a man that we talked to in a neighborhood that basically says he welcomes the idea of this federal action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't be satisfied living in a city where you can't go to the gas station. You go to the gas station, you become a statistic. That's real. I tell my wife, do not go to the gas station at night. But now sometimes you can't go to it in the daytime, you know? I don't look out -- I don't come out my front door without looking out the window first left and right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Memphis has a history of racialized violence in the city. If you think back to the sanitation workers strike, some bringing troops here puts black and brown communities at a higher risk to be targeted and potentially pulling funds and resources from the communities that need them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Jake, you've had me on your show several times and we've been covering crime throughout the pandemic, and we saw that spike back in 2020.

[18:25:02]

Cities have been struggling to get crime back down. We see a year lows now, 25 percent down, according to the police department here. The chief, Chief Davis, has been working to get crime down. We know federal resources will help. The mayor says they want those extra federal resources, but there are people in this community who are scared that a heavy hand here could lead to some sort of action. Let's not forget that this is where Tyre Nichols was also killed. But they want action. They want to see gun crime tampered down a lot.

One other thing, as Hegseth HF talked to the troops here, we know that Elon Musk even bought food for them as they get ready to hit the streets tonight. There's a lot of support for them as they do this action over the next couple days. We'll have more for you later on. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Ryan Young in Memphis, thank you so much.

Michigan LDS Church was targeted in a horrific attack this weekend. In response, we saw acts of bravery and heroism. Coming up next, I'm going to talk to a woman who dropped everything to go and help save lives.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, when a crazed man motivated by apparent bigotry fired upon and set fire to a Michigan LDS church on Sunday, ultimately killing four people and injuring eight others, hundreds of nurses at the nearest hospital were refusing to work, because for five weeks prior, employees at Henry Ford Genesis Hospital had been on strike amid negotiations on a new labor contract.

But after the clouds of smoke began to rise overhead and ambulances began racing past, well, a group of those nurses knew they couldn't just stand by and watch.

Joining me now as one of those nurses, Elise Vinson. Elise, walk us through the day, when did you realize something terrible had happened and feel compelled to run to work?

ELISE VINSON, NURSE WHO LEFT PICKET LINE TO CARE FOR SHOOTING VICTIMS: So, a few of us were, I mean, there were nurses on campus like walking the picket line, but there were a few of us out doing other union business. So, I received a phone call actually from a manager that had told me that there was an event that was happening near the hospital. I had already received some phone calls from some other people that were in the area saying that we may have a code black event and it may be mass casualty.

So, at that time, all of us that were out running, doing union business, we jumped in our cars and we drove straight to the hospital. It wasn't even a question about our labor dispute. We got in our cars and we went because we knew our community was in trouble.

TAPPER: That sounds like -- it sounds like nurses from what I know of nurses. What was it like inside the hospital?

VINSON: I actually did not get to enter the hospital just because we got -- many of us got called off. Only a few people were able to enter for about 30 minutes. Their account, they really said it was very chaotic. Nobody knew how many ambulance would be there. And then once those nurses got -- once administration told them that they had to leave the hospital, everyone jumped into action and headed to the scene and then headed to a very big movie theater we call the Trillium, where the reunification process started with the American Red Cross.

So, first responders and Red Cross, they welcomed us with open arms and our help even though we weren't allowed to actually help inside of our hospital.

TAPPER: Nurses do more than just assist with physical injuries in situations such as Sundays. What kind of emotional support were you able to provide?

VINSON: I mean, nursing -- we always talk about how nurses, we give meds, we dress wounds, but at the end of the day, we give hugs. We figure out, are you okay? Do you have someone to go home with? Most of us sprung into action. We were hugging people, getting water. We grabbed all of our snacks from the strike line and brought them up to the first responders, the victims, the Red Cross, anyone we could. And then once we kind of, that situation, the reunification process happened every, a lot of nurses started getting their cars, getting their car seats, and we started transporting kids back home with their families because they were unable to get their cars because they were at the scene. So, we just used every resource that we had available outside of the hospital to help the community.

TAPPER: Have you ever seen anything like that before?

VINSON: Oh, absolutely not. I've grown up in Michigan my whole life. I lived in Genesee County my entire life, and I have never encountered something that would've hurt this much of my community ever. This is something that we could have never, ever planned for. We prep for it, but you never plan on it happening in your community.

TAPPER: What is the status of the labor negotiations now? Did this attack change anything?

VINSON: No. Actually, our labor dispute, I feel, got a little bit more contentious. The hospital decided that they didn't want us to have any on our picket area. They didn't want us to have chairs or any, like the camping sunshades we were using because it is 90 degrees here right now in Michigan still, and the sun is out.

So, they actually came to us and said that they would go further legally if we did not remove any objects from the strike line. And they're going to allow us only three porta-potties for 750 striking nurses.

TAPPER: All right. Well, as I always say, thank God for nurses. Elise Vinson, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

VINSON: Thank you. Have a good day.

TAPPER: Pope Leo may have inadvertently waited into the world of politics. Hear his remarks that are not going over too well with some conservative Catholics. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: The reason why the American people's government is shut down is because Chuck Schumer is listening to the far left radicals in his own party because he is terrified of a primary challenge.

The Democrats, if they're so worried about the effect this is having on the American people, and they should be, what they should do is reopen the government, not complain about how we respond to the fact that Chuck Schumer and the Democrats have shut down the government in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And we're back on Capitol Hill with our Politics Lead, the government shutdown. Let's discuss with our panel Karen Finney, a former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, Alyssa Farah Griffin, the White House communications director in Trump's first term.

Alyssa, Vice President Vance says that Schumer is terrified of a primary challenge from AOC. What do you think?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, you can't ignore the politics of this. There was a close call of a shutdown earlier this year. Chuck Schumer did what I think is prudent and what leaders in Congress are supposed to do, and he cut a deal and the government remained funded, but he's never been more unpopular than he has since that choice. So, I think there was a lot of pressure from his progressive flank to not vote to fund the government.

And, listen, what I've been telling folks is Donald Trump wants this fight, so Democrats should not want it.

[18:40:00]

If Donald Trump is prepared for the government to be shut down, he wanted this to be the case. I think that spells something about how likely he thinks it is that Democrats are going to be able to outmaneuver or outmessage him from this.

TAPPER: And, Karen, Alyssa is not the only one to make that argument. The Washington Post Editorial Board says Democrats just marched into a shutdown trap. They specifically blamed progressive Democrats and they're saying that chances are slim that the two parties could ever come to any terms that these progressive Democratic activists would ever view as a decisive victory. What do you think?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, here's what I think we have to remember that changed. Yes, Senator Schumer's political fortunes have been a little shaky regardless to shut down or not shut down. But remember that in the interim, the big, ugly bill has passed and we have seen very clearly from the American people, they absolutely hate it. They don't just dislike it, they hate it. We've seen real rage from people throughout the summer.

So, part of Democrat's position, I think, is recognizing part of why I think they believe they're on strong ground is, number one, it's not a quote unquote clean C.R., as the Republicans continue to say, it does include those cuts. It includes that $1 trillion cuts to Medicaid. It also means that the other factor that they're fighting for is the healthcare subsidies. So, I think they believe they're on strong ground because the American people want this. They do not want to see kind of the continuation of the big, ugly bill.

TAPPER: Alyssa, yesterday, both Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, the House Democratic leader, met with President Trump as the government was just hours away from shutting down. President Trump posted a photo from the meeting where you can see a red hat on the table, two of them actually. It says Trump 2028, which apparently President Trump offered to the Democratic leaders.

We know that Trump loves to troll. But what do you make of this, the time, the place, the fact that this was not the only meme that President Trump used to troll them? I mean, this is a serious thing, the government shutdown. People are not only working without pay, some of them are not working without pay and some of them might lose their jobs permanently.

GRIFFIN: Listen, I think it tells you everything about where the president's head is with regard to this shutdown. So, I was in the White House working for Vice President Pence during the last government shutdown, the longest in history. And it was a very different atmosphere. There was a recognition that we had to find a policy solution. Republicans' position on that issue was around border security and wanting greater enforcement. But there was a real recognition by President Trump of we've got to find an off-ramp here. We've got to get a compromise that meets what I'm trying to achieve here.

I don't get that sense at all from the White House, from people I'm talking to. They very much seem to be relishing this fight. They're posting the memes. They're putting out the 2028 hats. And that is because, and I've said this many times, OMB is going to decide what's funded. Russ Vought is going to decide what aspects of the federal government continue to be operating. This is somebody who loves DOGE cuts. This is somebody who wants to dismantle the administrative state and wants to shrink the federal workforce.

This is, in many ways, a MAGA and Trump administration dream. They get to keep what they want going and they get to turn off Democratic priorities.

FINNEY: But can we also just point out, Jake, they are going to do that anyway. I think that's the other reality and thing that has changed. We have already seen them continue to do that. So, to suggest that somehow the shutdown is the reason that they might do it is preposterous, right? We know they've already been doing it. It's what they want to do regardless. We could reopen and they could do it anyway. I don't think any, there's any trust.

And I do think that some of these pictures and memes, you know, make the president seem very unserious in a moment that is very serious and in a moment where, again, I mean, my first shutdown was in the Clinton administration, and let me tell you what, Newt Gingrich was jonesing for that fight, and we all know how that one turned out. So, I think being too eager for the fight could actually be part of what is the undoing of President Trump and the Republicans in this one. TAPPER: Let's change this subject, if I could, because this is an interesting story to me. Alyssa, Pope Leo was recently asked to comment on the fact that Democratic Senator Dick Durbin was receiving or possibly was going to receive a Catholic lifetime achievement award. But local bishops said Durbin should not get the award because of his voting record in favor of abortion rights. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE LEO: It is important to look at many issues that are related to what is the teaching of the church. Someone who says, I'm against abortion, but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life. So, someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I am in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in the United States, I don't know if that's pro-life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:45:06]

TAPPER: White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt, a Catholic, today, said that she rejects the notion that there is any inhumane treatment of immigrants going on under this administration.

But tell me what you think about Pope Leo's remarks about abortion, because I've seen a lot of pushback from conservative Catholics.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, and I'm Episcopalian, but I share pro-life beliefs. And I think that this was something that that many people were waiting to hear from this new pope, to see where he would come down on this debate, because there is really a split between more conservative Catholics and some of the more liberal Catholics.

But a pro-life position has been consistently Catholic and within the Christian Church. I think that there's going to be a tendency to overread politics into this. We're so American centric and politics centric that we want to apply it to what's happening here, but its a universal take that he's giving for the world.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So as a Catholic, as a sort of center left Catholic, if you will, I think also what he is trying to do is return the church to its roots in terms of being with the people and being a little bit more sort of forgiving or open to the idea that perhaps we can hold different viewpoints and still be good Catholics and still be good Christians and believers of the faith.

TAPPER: Karen, Pope Leo also just weighed in on another political and global issue, calling President Trump's Gaza plan a realistic proposal.

FINNEY: Yeah, I honestly didn't see the full quote. So I would want to see that. And I would want to again see whether or not -- I mean, I think a lot of this depends not just on what the Palestinians decide to do, what the rest of the region decides to do. But whether or not Bibi Netanyahu will actually keep his word, because we've seen him break his word consistently to Donald Trump, who said he would get this done in 24 hours and its now been almost nine months.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

She changed how the world looks at animals. Next, we're going to take a look at the life of the legend, Jane Goodall.

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[18:51:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We want no aluminum in the vaccine. The MMR I think should be taken separately. This is based on what I feel.

It's climate change, it's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion. The carbon footprint is a hoax made up by people with evil intentions.

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TAPPER: Man, President Trump, there making several striking false claims last week, none of them supported by data that the scientific community find credible. The rhetoric and that of members of his administration contributes to what my next guests call a global anti- science campaign. In their new book, "Science Under Siege", Dr. Peter Hotez and Dr. Michael Mann join us now.

Dr. Hotez, you specialize in vaccine development and disease. Dr. Mann studies climate change, and you explain how these two threats are linked together. You write, quote, we find ourselves facing not just a12 one-two punch of pandemics in the climate crisis, but a one, two, three punch with that third punch anti-science, obstructing the needed response from government and civil society.

Dr. Hotez, can you give us a quick overview of what you call the five major players contributing to anti-science?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT: Yeah. The point is, Jake, it is -- it is a whole ecosystem and five P's. And credit to Michael there. He loves the alliteration.

That's the plutocrats. People like Elon Musk. The Koch -- the Koch brothers. The Petro states, and even the far right part of the United States resembles a Petro state.

The pros, the credentialed talking heads that we see too often pushing misinformation. The propagandists who amplify it. And then the press, and not just the far-right press, the Murdoch media empire, but even some of the false equivalency given by some of the legacy media.

TAPPER: Dr. Mann, you called the threats of climate change and pandemics inextricably interwoven. Tell me more about that.

MICHAEL MANN, PRESIDENTIAL DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Yeah. Thanks, Jake. Good to be with you.

So they're interwoven in the sense that the climate crisis and environmental degradation is actually leading to the conditions that favor these novel pandemics, these novel viruses, COVID 19. We expect more of this in the future, in part because of the aggravating effects of climate change.

And so, these things are coupled. Climate change is a crisis on its own. Pandemics are a crisis on their own. And indeed, misinformation, disinformation and the promotion of anti-science is making it impossible for us to tackle either or any of the great challenges that we face today. And that's really the point. Anti-science has become deadly.

TAPPER: Dr. Mann, let's dive a little deeper into the Petro states, Saudi Arabia or Texas, I suppose, as two examples. States or countries that rely heavily on fossil fuels. One of the most prominent, of course, is Russia.

President Trump recently called for the E.U. to place sanctions on Russian oil as a way to place more pressure on Putin in his war in Ukraine.

Now, in your book, you make the claim that Russia once again, this is a quote. Now Russia once again interfered in the 2024 U.S. presidential election on Trump's behalf and arguably was the primary reason he prevailed. Explain what you mean by that because just to be clear, you're not talking about anybody hacking the election, but you are talking about an influence campaign.

[18:55:01]

So, explain that.

MANN: Indeed. And this is something we see from these Petro states, from Russia, from Saudi Arabia. They have sought to sort of poison the well when it comes to global efforts to move away from fossil fuels towards renewable energy, because, of course, these are countries whose economies are fundamentally dependent on the extraction and sale of their fossil fuels.

And one of the tactics that they've used is to weaponize social media, Twitter, Facebook, to use social media to create just an overwhelming echo chamber of anti-science, to create conflict, to sort of confuse the discussion and make it very difficult for these social media platforms to be the sort of public square where scientists can communicate the science and its implications to the public. They've done everything to use social media, really to magnify misinformation and disinformation, all in a service, all in service of this agenda, this agenda to paralyze efforts to move away from fossil fuels.

And indeed, this ideologically driven agenda now to discredit public health scientists like Peter. And in the book, we talk about why and how these things are interlinked and why it's all part of one larger campaign to basically just, you know, prevent any meaningful dialogue that will lead to solutions to these problems that we face. TAPPER: And, Dr. Hotez, some of the five forces, the five P's can

blend together, the plutocrats, especially, can weave their influence into politics and propaganda. Tell me how you saw that escalate during the pandemic.

HOTEZ: Yeah, I mean, we saw this when 200,000 Americans died, Jake, 200,000, because they refused COVID vaccines. And it wasn't random. This was a targeted political campaign that convinced Americans that COVID vaccines, didn't work. In their push against vaccine mandates, but you could kind of understand they actually discredit the effectiveness and safety. And Americans died in droves.

So, this is why we care. It's a killer. It's become a killing, a lethal force.

TAPPER: "Science Under Siege", it's available now. Dr. Peter Hotez, Dr. Michael Mann, thanks for joining us.

Our last lead start in our health lead. It is breast cancer awareness month. And a new study from the British Medical Journal found that women who missed their first mammogram appointment could have a 40 percent higher long-term risk of dying from breast cancer.

The study involved more than 400,000 women monitored for up to 25 years. Last year, the U.S. lowered the recommended age for most women to start mammograms to 40 years old. So, listen to the study. Don't miss that first mammogram.

In our pop culture lead, the most ferocious competition of the year is over. It's the fat bear 2025 competition and has a new champion. Out of the 12 chubbiest bears, am I allowed to say that? The true underdog has won. Bear 32 nicknamed Chunk, I did not give the bear the nickname Chunk, so don't get mad at me.

Chunk suffered from a jaw injury but still achieved the im-paw-sible. This contest follows bears in Alaska's Katmai National Park as they eat as much salmon as possible as they prepare for hibernation. At the same time, they try to win the hearts of the Internet. They're all winners, really, aren't they?

And our world lead, the legendary Jane Goodall has passed away at the age of 91. Goodall spent her life studying animal behavior and emotions by chronicling the lives of chimpanzees. She was the very first woman to conduct field studies on chimpanzees in the wild, arriving in Tanzania in 1960 at the age of 26 with no formal scientific education.

But her research changed how scientists study animals, all animals. Goodall was the very first to observe primates making and using tools, eating meat, performing rituals, and using their own form of language to communicate, proving to the world just how closely related humans and primates are.

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JANE GOODALL, CONSERVATIONIST: It had long been thought that we were the only creatures on Earth that used and made tools. Man, the toolmaker is how we were defined. And here was David Graybeard using a tool. It was hard for me to believe what I'd seen.

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TAPPER: Goodall's research has been described as representing, quote, one of the Western world's greatest scientific achievements. Goodall created the Jane Goodall Institute in 1977, which became one of the world's largest nonprofit research and conservation organizations. In the 1990s, she created Roots and Shoots to get children interested in studying animals.

This past January, she was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Biden. Goodall passed away due to natural causes in California while on her latest speaking tour in the United States, according to the Goodall Institute.

May her memory be a blessing.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.