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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Bondi Dodges Questions As She Clashes With Democrats; Texas National Guard Troops Arrive In Illinois Ahead Of Expected Chicago Deployment; White House Questions Back Pay For Furloughed Workers; Two Years After Oct 7: The Fights Defining Israeli Society; Trump Rips Democrats, Says They "Have No Leader" As Sen. Schumer Urges Trump To Get Involved In Talks; Conservative Jewish Speaker Accuses NYU Of Caving To Backlash Over His Event On Free Speech & Anti-Semitism. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired October 07, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[17:00:13]
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks to my panel for joining us today. Really appreciate you guys. And if you at home missed any of today's show, you can always catch up with our podcast. Scan the QR code below. You can follow along wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow the show on X and Instagram at The Arena CNN. But now it is time for Jake Tapper who is standing by for The Lead. Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Why only X and Instagram? What about Bluesky? What about TikTok? What about Facebook?
HUNT: It's a work in progress.
TAPPER: There's so many social --
HUNT: We see CNN on TikTok. But I really need to ask the person that helps me do TikTok. I'm --
TAPPER: So many social media apps. All right, Kasie, we'll see you back in the arena tomorrow.
HUNT: See you tomorrow.
TAPPER: Contentious does not even begin to describe the Senate hearing today that we're going to tell you about. The Lead starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Find it interesting that you want order in this proceeding now. Excuse me, Senator.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do know the answer.
BONDI: Don't call me a liar.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: The sparks were a fly in as Attorney General Pam Bondi faced down her toughest Senate critics. But will this hearing and approach accomplish anything?
Plus, will furloughed federal workers get back pay when the federal government reopens, as they did in previous shutdowns? Why? President Trump now says, well, that depends.
And shutdown factor impacting anyone flying. The list of major airports with staffing shortages in control towers is growing by the hour.
And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. The Lead tonight, a fiery day on Capitol Hill sparked by a hearing from Trump's Attorney General Pam Bondi. Democrats pressing Bondi about what they deem a pattern of President Trump weaponizing the Justice Department.
Bondi attempted to deflect questions about that and the Epstein files and the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey and border czar Tom Homan's now dismissed bribery investigation and the administration's continued use of law enforcement to fight crime in U.S. cities. The National Guard to fight crime in U.S. cities.
Bondi often responded with a bag of sharp ad hominem attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: I'm not going to be lectured --
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Let me move on another topic by hoping that you will review --
BONDI: -- about integrity by someone who lied about being in the military just to be elected as senator.
Senator, I don't think a lot of people like that. You were out protesting with Antifa, right?
I don't know the answer, Senator.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do know the answer.
BONDI: Don't call me a liar.
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Was she --
BONDI: If you worked for me, you would have been fired because you were cinched, censured by Congress for lying.
SCHIFF: Will you support that request?
BONDI: Will you apologize to Donald Trump?
SCHIFF: I guess the answer is --
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: No doubt delicious red meat for the MAGA base, but not a lot of substantive answers to perfectly reasonable questions from the legislative branch conducting oversight. At times, Bondi's answers in the hearing transcript read more like mean tweets.
Meanwhile, Republican senators are blaming Biden's Justice Department for overreach, pointing to documents released yesterday that showed Special Counsel Jack Smith's January 6th investigation obtained call records of eight Senate Republicans. They did so through a court order.
It is unclear what investigators wanted with the records or if the senators were targets of the investigation into the events of the insurrection and plans to deny the American people a free and fair transfer of power.
Attorney General Bondi says her Justice Department is now working to return what she insists is its core mission, fighting real crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: They were playing politics with law enforcement powers and will go down as a historic betrayal of public trust. This is the kind of conduct that shatters the American people's faith in our law enforcement system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's Evan Perez, who's been watching this hearing all day. Evan, how would you describe Bondi's strategy over all in this hearing?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, look, I think she came there with a mission, right? And a lot of it was in those binders that she had there. She had one liners that seemed tailored for every specific Democratic senator. She knew what they were going to come after her for, and she took it and redirected it straight back at them.
And you saw a lot of them seem completely, unprepared really for this, for what was coming, despite the fact that, really we saw a similar performance a couple of weeks ago from Kash Patel, the FBI director. So it's kind of remarkable to me to watch that hearing unfold and to see these Democratic senators not seem to know what the playbook was. Right.
[17:05:08
What we saw, though, the attorney general defending the conduct that she's been overseeing at the Justice Department, the accusations that the President has been giving her essentially orders of which political enemies to go after. And of course, we don't need to imagine some of that because we saw the social media posting from the President right after he fired the U.S. attorney, his own appointed U.S. attorney nominee in the eastern District of Virginia, and then, of course, getting that indictment of James Comey. So that is not an imaginary set of conversations, but Bondi was very,
very ready to turn this into another type of weaponization discussion, which was those, that discussion that you just saw highlighted about those phone records.
There's a lot of misunderstanding, I think, about it partly because we don't know a lot about what went on in that investigation, but it certainly left a lot for those senators to work with there.
TAPPER: So there were a lot of perfectly reasonable questions the Democratic senators were seeking answers on. Did we learn anything new about these ongoing Justice Department issues, Comey's prosecution, the Epstein files, the phone records from the Jack Smith investigation?
PEREZ: No, not very much. We know she did say that there is an ongoing investigation into those phone records. So presumably if there was some wrongdoing, we will find out about it from the Justice Department in the coming months, Jake.
We also, she refused to really dignify any question about the Tom Homan investigation, and she refused to even discuss the Justice Department authorization, whatever legal opinion has been provided to the President for those attacks on the supposed narco trafficking boats on the Caribbean Sea.
By the way, at another hearing, we learned from an army official that there is a Justice Department memo on that, Jake. So the attorney General didn't want to tell us, but we learned about it in another hearing.
TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thanks so much. Let's bring in CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero and POLITICO's Ankush Khardori. Ankush, you're also a former prosecutor at the Justice Department.
Ahead of today's hearing, you went back and you watched every time Attorney General Bondi went on TV this year. And after seeing her roughly 100 appearances, you concluded, quote, Bondi has emerged as perhaps the most openly political and partisan attorney general in modern American history.
First of all, that's quite a stark assessment. Second of all, how did her appearance today square with all those other appearances? Roughly 100 appearances, none of which were on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, they were all on conservative media or public -- in public situations.
ANKUSH KHARDORI, SENIOR WRITER, POLITICO MAGAZINE: She did do a couple on ABC.
TAPPER: Oh, did she?
KHARDORI: Yes.
TAPPER: Oh, thanks. I stand correctly.
KHARDORI: One outside, one on the White House lawn, and one for the digital side of ABC.
TAPPER: That's why I missed them.
KHARDORI: Yes. So, yes, it is a stark assessment. Honestly, I was a little anxious about putting that assessment out into the world, but I think she proved it right today. I was really taken aback. What we saw was the essence of her approach over the last eight months in office, which is -- has been partisan. It's been really about fidelity to Trump and Trump's political interests. Hyper defensive. All of the things we saw today, the vitriolic attacks, the ad hominems, the non sequiturs, these are not new.
She's been doing this whenever she's gotten questions, including from Democratic Congress people handling the appropriations oversight. But this was taken to another level entirely. I think it was really a sad and offensive display. She seems to believe that she only answers to Donald Trump rather than the American people.
And she had such contempt for the oversight responsibilities of the Democrats, who she seems to perceive as enemies rather than representatives of the American public. I thought she proved everything I wrote 100 percent right, but that was -- that is really sad. That's really sad.
TAPPER: Carrie, Senator Amy Klobuchar, a Democrat from Minnesota, asked Attorney General Bondi about Trump's directive to her on Truth Social. Some people speculate that he didn't mean to say it on Truth Social. It was meant to be a text. We don't know, we'll never know.
It's specifically addressed to Pam and it asks about serving justice to former FBI Director Comey and Senator Adam Schiff and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Comey was prosecuted or indicted, we should say later.
Bondi, when asked by Klobuchar, said that the President was being transparent. But I wonder, can her testimony be used in Comey's legal case?
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he certainly is going to say that he, in his defense, is going to say that this is a political prosecution and really he's going to just counter whatever is the evidence, to the extent the Justice Department has any that really would support the charges against him.
[17:10:10]
I think certainly from a public perspective, we can look at the social media post by the president as well as all the other statements that are out there and draw from that the prosecution of Jim Comey and it cannot be anything but politically motivated. It's such a flimsy indictment.
The timing of it was on, you know, when the statute of limitations were running out, and they've put out publicly that he was a political adversary of the administration and the president. TAPPER: So Attorney General Bondi frequently deflected questions from
Democratic senators by bringing up violent crime statistics in their home states or the issues along the border. How does that tie into the way she's tried to reshape the Justice Department in terms of its priorities?
KHARDORI: So she has really narrowed down the Justice Department's priorities. We saw her today, say, returning the Justice Department back to its core mission of fighting real crime. I think she said something along those lines. What she means is immigration enforcement, guns and drugs, but mostly immigration enforcement. Even the guns and drug referrals for prosecutions have gone down this year.
And one, you know, there are a few things you never hear her talk about and you probably didn't hear her talk about at all today. Financial fraud, cybersecurity, foreign election interference, public corruption, both domestically and abroad. All of those things are exempt from her construct of what constitutes real crime or the core mission of returning to violent crime.
And I would just say she used a tactic today that she frequently uses, which is when someone brings some asks her a question, a reasonable question, she says, well, what about this crime that occurred in Colorado a couple weeks ago in your home state or in Chicago, you know, there have been X numbers of murders. She's very careful not to use percentages or --
TAPPER: Trend lines.
KHARDORI: Trend lines.
TAPPER: Yes.
KHARDORI: It's all anecdotes and raw numbers.
CORDERO: Just to add to that briefly, this attorney general has, in my judgment, presided over the most dramatic transformation of the justice department in probably 25 to 30 years in terms of the priorities where the last 25 years it shifted towards primary national security issues, complex criminal investigations. And she has totally changed that.
In today's hearing, I just didn't see the senators really get at that issue to understand the dramatic change both in terms of priorities as well as in terms of drawing down the workforce generally at some of the most critical Justice Department divisions.
TAPPER: Well, maybe someday you'll be a senator up there and you'll ask the right questions. You have my vote. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
Coming up, dramatic new video coming in from Chicago. Witnesses intervening as ICE officials presumably tried to make an arrest.
Plus, the White House Budget Office memo that's raising alarm for thousands of furloughed federal workers. When the shutdown ends, will they get their back pay? Why that's a bigger question today than it was yesterday. That's ahead.
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TAPPER: In our National Lead, rising tensions in both Chicago, Illinois and Portland, Oregon, as local officials await rulings in their legal challenges against the Trump administration. This Thursday, attorneys for the administration will argue in front of federal judges in both cities at the same time. CNN is on the ground in both Portland and Chicago.
Omar Jimenez in Chicago. Shimon Prokupecz in Portland. And Omar, the Texas National Guard arrived today at a military base near Chicago. How confident is the Trump administration that they will legally be allowed to deploy these troops?
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Well, they seem to be very confident, at the very least, putting in place the pieces if and or when that path is officially cleared. And we've been outside this U.S. Army Reserve Center. I just want to point out we've actually been watching to see if there were troops amassed at any point. And actually just in the last few seconds, you can actually see a bunch of uniformed military personnel standing around there.
This is where we saw the Texas National Guard gathered a little bit earlier with a insignia patch of a T on their left arms. It's kind of hard to see if those are the specific ones there, but we've been able to see essentially less and less of this base.
This fencing just went up literally in the past few minutes. And these trucks were pulled in front of our view a little bit earlier where a lot of the cameras here had been observing members of the Texas National Guard as they officially got here.
Now, one of the big questions is, what will the scope of their activities actually be here? That's the question on the minds of many in the community who have had recent run-ins with federal immigration enforcement. It's why some have taken it upon themselves to warn of others or try to support others when they see it.
There was this video from a few days ago of what appeared to be a border agent trying to detain someone in a neighborhood. And the key word trying because they weren't really succeeding. And there were people going by, honking. Others were yelling at them to let the man go. And after struggling on the ground for minutes, they eventually did let them -- let him go.
Now, DHS says it was because they had to respond to another incident as well, but it highlights some of the tensions that are simmering in these communities where people in some cases feel like they need to look out for themselves for incidents like these.
TAPPER: And, Omar, thank you, Shimon. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem is visiting Portland, Oregon, right now. Do we know what is on her docket, what she plans to see?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CIRME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So I can tell you, Jake, she just left. We saw her motorcade leaving. She spent a couple of hours here meeting, it appears, with the law enforcement officials that have been out here securing this building.
You know, this is all center, Jake, around this one building, and it's really a driveway that the law enforcement officials attached to the ICE building are used to come in and out.
[17:20:10]
And that's where all of the flare ups have been. They've been small, have been small groups of protesters. And really the only time, you know, I was here last night, Jake, and I could tell you that, you know, having covered so many protests, like the only time that we have that we saw any flare ups, the only time we saw any kind of aggressive actions by either protesters, it was because of the federal law enforcement officials. They would come out from behind the gate, the fencing that they've been in to open so that cars could come in or out and that would draw the crowd.
And then on a number of occasions they were firing from the roof, these pepper balls, the federal law enforcement officials down at the crowd to get them to move, to get them to get out of the way. And so once they would retreat, things would calm down. And that's how things have been unfolding here.
We've had local police department here. They've been monitoring the situation. We'll see how tonight goes. For now, many of the people who've been out here protesting, they're trying to get back inside right now. This entire area is closed off. It's expected to reopen soon.
TAPPER: Omar Jimenez in Chicago, Shimon Prokupecz in Portland, Oregon. Thanks to both of you.
Coming up, President Trump's response when asked earlier today. A furloughed federal workers will get their back pay when this shutdown ends.
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[17:25:30]
TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, the White House is considering not paying furloughed workers back pay when this government shutdown is over, according to a memo first reported by Axios, which President Trump was asked about in the Oval Office earlier today. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The Democrats have put a lot of people in great risk and jeopardy. But it really depends on who you're talking about. But for the most part, we're going to take care of our people and there are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of and we'll take care of them in a different way.
I follow the law and what the law says is correct. And I follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Here now is the Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee, Congressman James Comer of the great Commonwealth of Kentucky. Thanks for joining us. Here's what your speaker, Speaker Johnson said about this earlier today.
Oh, he said there are some legal analysts who are saying that may be -- may not be appropriate or necessary in terms of the law requiring that back pay be provided. So I'm sure that will be -- there will be a lot of discussion about that. If it's true. That should turn up the urgency and the necessity of the Democrats doing the right thing here.
Both you and Speaker Johnson, of course, voted for in 2019, requiring retroactive pay for federal employees impacted by a shutdown. What's your position now on withholding back pay?
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Well, I think the government employees who are working throughout the shutdown should certainly be paid. And I think the law is probably pretty clear that they're supposed to be paid even during a shutdown. So hopefully everyone will get paid. I'm hopeful that Chuck Schumer will come around and go along with what we've always done when we get to this point where we, you know, pass the continuing resolution to keep the government open and keep the government funded.
I think that if you look at history, I've always said on conservative networks when Republicans and right wing people were calling for a government shutdown, I said it never ends well. Because if you think you're going to save money, you're not, because you're going to have to go back and pay all these salaries.
And I think Republicans have traditionally shut the government down to try to save money, and that didn't work. And now we have a situation where, in my opinion, Jake, the Democrats are shutting the government down because they want to spend more money.
TAPPER: Right.
COMER: And, you know, we'll see what happens there. But I think the employees will get paid.
TAPPER: I want to turn to the investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, which the Oversight Committee is doing. Yesterday, CNN's Kaitlan Collins asked President Trump if he would consider a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell. This is after the U.S. Supreme Court denied to hear her request for an appeal. Here's some of what President Trump had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know, I haven't heard the name in so long, I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. I have to ask DOJ. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it, frankly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Obviously, she's been convicted for sex trafficking minors. What do you think? Should President Trump consider pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell?
COMER: I do not think he should. I've been very vocal about that. I've seen enough information thus far from the thousands of pages of documents that the Department of Justice has turned over, in addition to the documents that we subpoenaed from the estate, in addition to conversations that I've had with some of the victims of Epstein and Maxwell that I can say with confidence I would strongly discourage any type of pardon or commutation of Maxwell.
TAPPER: On the indictment against former FBI Director James Comey. As you know, one U.S. attorney resigned or was forced to resign after he told officials in his office in the Eastern District of Virginia that there was not sufficient evidence to bring charges against Comey.
ABC News is now reporting that John Durham, the former special counsel who spent nearly four years looking into the malfeasance related to Crossfire Hurricane. He apparently told the Eastern District of Virginia that he was unable to uncover sufficient evidence that would support charges of lying to Congress against Comey.
We all saw President Trump sending a social -- message on Truth Social telling Pam Bondi to go after James Comey. Do you have any concerns at all that this is a political prosecution?
COMER: Absolutely not. This is where I probably disagree with you, Jake. I've seen enough on Comey that I think that he deserves a day in court. I believe that there's been sufficient evidence that has emerged that would show potential wrongdoing. Obviously, Comey deserves due process, as does anyone else.
[17:30:00]
But as far as political retribution, I don't view it as retribution, I view it as accountability. And I think that Comey has been a part of a team of bureaucrats in Washington that have weaponized the -- the judicial system, that have weaponized the intelligence agency. So I think that this should be prosecuted, and obviously he deserves his day in court, and he deserves due process, but I certainly think there's enough evidence to move forward.
TAPPER: Republican Congressman James Comer, chairman of the House Oversight Committee. Thank you, sir, appreciate your time.
COMER: Thank you.
TAPPER: Two years since the horrific October 7th attacks by Hamas against Israel, which then created this horrific war in Gaza. The power one mother of a hostage says she realized as she fights for her son to finally come home.
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[17:34:58]
TAPPER: Topping our World Lead today, marks two years since October 7th, 2023 when Hamas attacked Israel. As negotiators in Egypt make progress in finalizing a deal based on President Trump's ceasefire plan according to a source. Another possible sign of progress, the head of Israel's delegation and Prime Minister Netanyahu's closest confidant, Ron Dermer is expected to attend talks tomorrow along with Qatar's prime minister.
Back in Israel, a somber remembrance today. CNN's Jeremy Diamond talks to the parents of Israelis killed or killed two years ago who are still pressing Israel's government for answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For two years, they have been fighting. For sons taken hostage, for daughters killed at a music festival, and for the future of a country at a crossroads. Two years later, Hamas's October 7th attack and the war it unleashed still define this small country. Vicki Cohen knows that all too well.
DIAMOND: Hello Vicky. Hi.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Her son is still being held in Gaza. And she is at the forefront of the hostage family's movement. Demonstrating in front of the Prime Minister's home, inside Parliament and in weekly Saturday night protests.
DIAMOND: It's another Saturday night.
VICKI COHEN, MOTHER OF ISRAELI HOSTAGE: Yes. But it's feel different.
DIAMOND: Feels different, huh.
DIAMOND (voice-over): On the night we join her, the whole country is buzzing about a possible deal to free all of the hostages.
COHEN: It's mix of feelings. It's excitement, it's patient, it's a -- also fear.
DIAMOND (voice-over): This video shows the moment that changed everything. Her 19-year-old son, Nimrod, conscripted for mandatory military service, being pulled from an Israeli tank on the Gaza border and taken captive.
DIAMOND: So this is the Rubik's Cube that was in the tank.
COHEN: The real one that was found in the tank. He used to take it wherever he go.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Heading to another rally, Cohen cannot help but feel hopeful. But she is determined to keep fighting.
COHEN: We would still fight and do everything we did before until it's settled, until it's final, until they're at home.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Cohen wasn't always at the forefront of the protest movement. But she ramped up her fight after losing faith in her government.
COHEN: Many other families realized that we need to be more polite and less polite and be more aggressive with the fight.
DIAMOND (voice-over): She soon realized she had real power.
COHEN: I heard from so many people who told me, I heard you are -- you are asking and you are calling for us to come. And we will come. We are coming because of you. This is so important.
DIAMOND (voice-over): These rallies are where Vicki found her voice. And where she found a community to fight alongside.
DIAMOND: Saturday nights in Israel have represented a chance for the hostage families to raise their voices week after week with the support of so many Israelis. Vicki and her son are just about to go on stage.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Today I was filled with excitement, anticipation and great hope. But also, she tells the crowd, concern. The Israeli Prime Minister was speaking while Vicki was on stage.
COHEN: Did Netanyahu say something?
DIAMOND: Yes, he said that he hopes that they can be returned during Sukkot.
COHEN: The hostages?
DIAMOND: He said the goal is to limit negotiations to a few days. He doesn't want it to be dragged out.
SIGAL MANSURI, DAUGHTERS KILLED ON OCT. 7: They thought they were going to be safe here.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Sigal and Menashe Mansuri are also still fighting.
S. MANSURI: We just know that they went to a festival and they never came back. And we do know that their last couple hours were --
MENASHE MANSURI, DAUGHTERS KILLED ON OCT. 7: Hell.
S. MANSURI: -- were hell.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Two years after their daughters were slaughtered inside this bomb shelter, they are fighting for answers and accountability.
M. MANSURI: What we're looking for is the truth.
S. MANSURI: We want to know the truth in a legal way, in a decent way, in a respected way. We want to know what led us to October 7th. We want to know how come the -- the IDF didn't respond for so many hours.
DIAMOND (voice-over): The couple helped found the October Council, pushing for an independent commission of inquiry to investigate Israel's failures that helped lead to October 7th.
DIAMOND: But two years later, can you believe that you still have to fight for all of this? Did -- did -- did you think this fight would last this long?
S. MANSURI: No, no. You know what? It's -- it's -- it's even more than that. I didn't think that we'll have to fight for this.
DIAMOND (voice-over): But the Israeli prime minister has refused, claiming the commission would be biased.
S. MANSURI: When you have nothing to hide, how come you're so against it? And why are you trying to fight -- fight it?
[17:40:00]
DIAMOND: Do you believe that a state commission of inquiry will ever be set up while Prime Minister Netanyahu remains in office?
M. MANSURI: No.
S. MANSURI: Most likely and unfortunately, no.
M. MANSURI: The country, the state of Israel need to have the truth about what happens.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Along the border where Hamas militants stormed into Israel, the devastation wrought by Israel's subsequent attacks on Gaza is unmistakable. Here, the fight for Israel's character and its future are also on display.
SAPIR SLUZKER AMRAN, ISRAELI ACTIVIST: We came to the fence today, as close as we can to Gaza, to say that not all Israelis support the genocide, not all Israelis are supporting the starvation of Gaza.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Others have come to see and revel in the destruction.
RAFAEL HEMO, ISRAELI CITIZEN: No Arabs are supposed to be next to us here.
DIAMOND: So you want Gaza razed to the ground?
HEMO: No Gaza.
DIAMOND: No Gaza.
HEMO: All the building, I see a couple buildings there. Please help me. I want this flat. If you ask me, Trump wants to build a base here. You are welcome.
DIAMOND: Some would say that's genocide or that's ethnic cleansing.
HEMO: No, it's not genocide.
DIAMOND (voice-over): For Vicki Cohen, whether Israel prioritizes a deal to free the hostages or a forever war in Gaza will also define its future.
COHEN: It's a fight of something bigger than to release the hostages. It's something very basic of the Jewish community here in Israel that we care for each other. We don't sacrifice the lives for the land.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: And our thanks to Jeremy Diamond for that report.
With the shutdown in day seven now, why President Trump compared Democrats to the country of Somalia as Democrats continue to make demands for their votes to reopen the federal government. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[17:46:19]
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They have no leader. Nobody knows who the leader is. I look at AOC talking about how if they want to negotiate, they can come to my office. She's not in that position to do that. And who the hell is she to say that? They are a mess. They're a party that has no leadership.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: We're back with our Politics Lead. Today, President Trump blasted Democrats who continue to say they're not going to vote to reopen the government on day seven of the shutdown. On the Senate floor, Democratic leader Chuck Schumer, the minority leader, called on the President to get more directly involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: Ending this shutdown will require Donald Trump to step in and push Speaker Johnson to negotiate. Because without the President's involvement, Speaker Johnson and MAGA Republicans in the House are increasingly dug in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's bring in our panel, Susan Page. In a recent article, you called the shutdown, "the nuclear war of shutdowns." And you note that while it's not the longest, "it's already scoring the most far- reaching substantive impact of any of them." And one of the things you wrote that I thought was so insightful is there is -- there's no incentive for either side to blank.
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: There's every incentive for both sides to keep the fight up. Trump is having a wonderful time with the shutdown. It's helping him impose his policy agenda on agencies. He may be able to actually fire more federal workers. And for Chuck Schumer, this is a chance for Democrats to look like they're standing up and fighting against Trump, which has been something that a lot of core Democratic voters believe they have not done until now.
TAPPER: And, Jonah, Trump attacked Democrats for their tactics in these negotiations. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The Democrats have no leader. They remind me of Somalia. OK. You know, and I met the president of Somalia. I told him about the problem he's got. I said, you have somebody from Somalia who's telling us how to run our country from Somalia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Can you make any sense of -- of that? Just the idea that there's just roving bands of warlords. What -- what is he saying here?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think all of it just sort of plays into the sort of Dems in disarray thing.
TAPPER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: It throws gasoline on the fire.
TAPPER: Are they in disarray?
GOLDBERG: Not -- not -- I mean, conceptually, intellectually, I do think they're in disarray.
TAPPER: We always think that. Right.
GOLDBERG: We just talked about this on here yesterday. There is a kind of, you know, Andrew Cuomo was right that there is a kind of -- there's an intellectual civil war between sort of the social Democratic side and the sort of moderate middle side of the party.
And I think one of the reasons why they're in disarray is not because Donald Trump is saying, you know, it's like Somalia because vests have no sleeves and other sort of non sequitur nonsense. It's because the Democratic Party has all of its muscle memory. It's about fighting Republicans who want smaller government, less spending, lower taxes, all of that kind of stuff. That is where -- that is what they know how to argue against.
And Donald Trump is a big government guy. He wants more spending and all of these kinds of things. And, yes, he wants to, like, get rid of Democratic programs and all that kind of stuff. But it's very clear that the Trump White House is thinking about once they crush the Democrats and the government shutdown, they're actually going to cave on the subsidies for Obamacare premiums. Like, he has no problem doing that. Marjorie Taylor Greene is coming out with that. Josh Hawley is coming out of that.
Trump said today or yesterday that he was certainly open to it. And it's going to cause all sorts of problems for the House Freedom Caucus guys, but they're eventually going to go along. And Democrats don't know how to argue with a President who is fine with profligate spending and large government and protectionism and all these kinds of things. And I think that's the real dilemma, is they want to be anti- Trump.
[17:50:01]
But on policy stuff, Trump is sort of, he's wacky, but he's closer to the center and he's closer to Democrats on policy broad -- broadly speaking, role of government stuff than any Republican we've seen since Nixon.
TAPPER: I want to turn to some moves by Democrats. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro is out with a new ad boosting the incumbent Democratic Supreme Court justices in Pennsylvania for re-election next month. Shapiro obviously running for re-election himself. Here's part of his ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): Here in Pennsylvania, the threats to our freedoms are very real. That's why we need to keep our state Supreme Court standing up for what's right. I hope you'll join me in voting yes to retain Justices Donahue, Dougherty and Wecht. They've proven we can count on them to protect a woman's access to abortion and birth control and stand up for all our freedoms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So Susan, how much of this is about Donahue, Dougherty and Wecht?
PAGE: And it's also about Shapiro.
TAPPER: Yes.
PAGE: It's also about the retention elections, which until this I didn't realize they had in Pennsylvania. I mean, these are not elections for justices where they're running against each other. It's these -- shall we retain these three justices? It's not traditionally something that gets very much attention. But of course, a chance here on some big issues, as Shapiro says, and also a chance for Governor Shapiro, who clearly hopes to run in 2028 in what is going to be an enormous Democratic field. It's good for him too.
TAPPER: Pritzker and Newsom are threatening to withdraw their states from the National Governors Association if the group doesn't condemn Trump's National Guard deployment into states that -- that the governors don't want them. Newsom posted, if the National Governors Association cannot stand against states literally invading one another, count me out.
Pritzker posted, "we should be standing as one against the idea that Donald Trump can call up the National Guard against our will." Is this also 2028 related, you think?
GOLDBERG: Of course it's 2028 related. Just very quickly on the Pennsylvania thing, Donahue, Dougherty, Wecht, and Shapiro, sounds like a great lot. On this thing, look, I'm old enough to remember when a lot of my fellow conservatives were part of what they called the Tenther Movement, which was this whole idea of sort of states' rights and, you know, the states were sovereign entities in our Federalist constitutional structure.
I find myself in a very strange place of actually agreeing with Newsom and -- and Pritzker on a -- on a meta level, which is that there was a time where protecting the sovereignty of states was a core conservative position. They're coming at it for partisan reasons, for their own democratic reasons, but there's a core truth to that that I'm actually in favor of, and the National Governors Association should condemn this stuff.
TAPPER: By the way, you can find a tweet from then-governor Kristi Noem, then-governor of South Dakota, now Homeland Security Secretary, making that same argument. Joe Biden cannot send National Guard troops to South Dakota. I think she has a different position on that right now. Thanks to both. We really appreciate it.
[17:52:53]
As the world marks two years since Hamas's January 6th attacks on Israel, my next guest says NYU canceled his event today on free speech and anti-Semitism, but then, once under fire, brought it back. So why the back and forth? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our National Lead, my next guest says that NYU's law school tried to cancel his panel today on free speech and anti-Semitism only to face backlash and end up rebooking the event.
Ilya Shapiro calls himself a non-progressive, and with today's event, two years after the October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel, Shapiro says school administrators said they feared protests. Ilya Shapiro is with me now. He's a fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it. You called the reasoning for NYU originally canceling your event a classic heckler's veto.
I'm sure NYU would say that, you know, there has been a rise in anti- Semitic attacks and they were worried about security. That wasn't reasonable in your view, though.
ILYA SHAPIRO, FELLOW, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: It was a little rich. I was booked over the summer, and then the administrators just gave the students who invited me the runaround. First they said security. Then they said you can have a room in the basement. Then they canceled that. Then they said we just don't have the staff. And it was completely disingenuous.
And at the end of the day, even if there was security concerns, by the way, there were no protesters that I saw today. Maybe they went uptown to Columbia. But giving in to that rather than enforcing your own rules and maintaining decorum, that's inappropriate.
TAPPER: So NYU, we should note, said that the university was pleased to accommodate this conversation at the time and date that Mr. Shapiro had originally requested. I'm glad the event went out -- went on without problems. You have a book on this very issue. It's called "Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elites." And you say the book indicts higher ed for a liberal indoctrinating takeover. And you argue that structural issues create blind school administrators. Tell us more about that.
I. SHAPIRO: That's right. This was one of the ironies of this whole incident. I was there not to talk about Israel or -- or anti-Semitism on campus per se, but about my book, which is an indictment of the illiberal takeover of higher education, including especially law schools, cancel culture, indoctrination. All of these negative trends that we've seen that have arrived at a flashpoint in the last couple of years since October 7th. And there have been failures of ideology, bureaucracy and leadership. And I think we've seen all of those with this incident in a microcosm.
TAPPER: In New York today, some pushback from -- on the comment about October 7th from the Democratic candidate for Mayor Mamdani. He contemned the attacks. Then he went into accusations against Israel for launching a genocidal war in Gaza. He said -- he said the U.S. government has been complicit. Israel pushed back, accusing Mamdani of normalizing anti-Semitism, acting as a mouthpiece for Hamas propaganda. What -- what do you make of the back and forth?
I. SHAPIRO: I mean, I'm just happy I don't live in New York, obviously. I'm with the Manhattan Institute. A lot of my colleagues are here. I think it's going to be -- it's going to be tough. He's -- it looks like he's going to win and it's going to be a terrible situation for New Yorkers. Of course, we have our own situation in Virginia, where I live, where the Democratic candidate for attorney general is, you know, has these tweets wanting to kill the kids of his political rivals and all this. So not a good scene for political culture in America more broadly and -- and part of that is -- is the education and kind of the lack of teaching, of being able to have civil discourse.
[18:00:29]
TAPPER: All right, Ilya Shapiro, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.
I. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
