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The Lead with Jake Tapper
White House Says, Trump Considering Going to Middle East After Friday; Tension Builds on Capitol Hill as Shutdown Drags into Day Eight; Comey Pleads Not Guilty, Plans to Ask Judge to Drop Charges. Trump: Israel & Hamas "Signed Off" On First Phase Of Gaza Deal. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired October 08, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to the Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.
Our breaking news this hour, huge, fast-moving developments in the Gaza Ceasefire negotiations, President Trump, during a live event, was just handed a note that appears to say an Israel-Hamas ceasefire deal is very close. What might that mean for the Middle East and what might it mean for the release of the remaining hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza?
Plus, the federal government shutdown could not shut down an argument in the halls of Congress, between House Speaker Mike Johnson and Democratic members of the House and Senate. I asked Speaker Johnson about it in the last hour. We're going to break that down and break down that tiff as both parties escalate the blame game for the shutdown, none of which inspires confidence that we're going to find a way out of the shutdown anytime soon.
Also, nine months after one of the worst fires in the history of the state of California, decimated the Los Angeles area and killed a dozen people, a man has been arrested on suspicion of arson.
[18:00:06]
The Lead tonight, the handwritten note with major global consequences. Last hour President Trump stopped the White House event to announce an Israel-Hamas ceasefire deal negotiated based on his 20-point plan is almost across the finish line.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us. Kaitlan, tell us more.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, this was a moment that stood out to everyone who was watching this event play out here at the White House. It was a lengthy event. The president was going around the table and then he summoned his secretary of state, Marco Rubio, who had entered the room from the back. We saw the chief of staff, Susie Welles, get up from her seat, and then Rubio came and sat down and he passed the president a note. And you could see the president as he was reading it. And then he took a moment to stop as Secretary Rubio came over. And then essentially he told everyone what exactly he was being informed of, Jake. Listen to what the president had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- to find the criminal conspiracy.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Okay. I'm just given -- yes, I was just given a note by the secretary of state saying that we're very close to a deal in the Middle East and they're going to need me pretty quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After that, Jake, we saw Dan Scavino, one of the president's top aides, sharing a video of the president, Marco Rubio and the vice president, J.D. Vance, walking to the Oval Office after that meeting there and that event there broke up.
Obviously, we're waiting to see if the president is going to post on Truth Social because the eagle-eyed photographers who were in that room zoomed in on the notes that were handed to the president there. And it basically said something to the effect of being able to announce a ceasefire deal on Truth Social first.
And so we've been monitoring the president's account. He hasn't posted anything yet, but that's something that we've been told by White House officials to look closely at and expect an announcement to potentially come from that, Jake.
And, of course, we also got a statement from the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, right after. I want to read it to you because the end part of this is notable, but it says that, on Friday, the president is going to be traveling to Walter Reed Military Medical Center. That, of course, is where he is -- where he goes to -- for his physicals. They said he is going to be getting a physical while he is there on Friday, Jake. And then at the end of that statement, they said President Trump is considering going to the Middle East shortly thereafter.
So, two things that stand out from that, Jake. One, we could see the president traveling to the Middle East, as he suggested, potentially to Egypt, where those negotiations have been taking place in recent days. We'll see if that happens, but also, Jake, the fact that the president is getting a physical on Friday stands out. They referred to it as a routine physical there. But he also just got his yearly checkup here back in April, Jake, when he went to the doctor for the first time since retaking office. And after that, the White House physicians said that the president was fully fit to perform the duties of his office.
So, it's not clear why he is going back so soon. Typically, the president goes once a year, but we've asked the White House for any update on that, and obviously we'll let you know what we hear.
TAPPER: Yes. I mean, obviously the president has been having some health issues. We've covered and discussed in terms of the swollen ankles and the bruises on his hand. He's also 79 years old. Always good to go to the doctor. I hope that they disclose as much as possible.
Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. Don't miss Kaitlan on her show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN.
It's day eight of the government shutdown. Formal negotiations seem to be few and far between. Just last hour, the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, told me that members can't get back to legislating in the House until the shutdown's over. He noted that's why he has not called the House back into session or Republicans back to Washington.
Joining us now is the House Democratic minority whip, Congresswoman Katherine Clark. She's a Democrat from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Thanks so much for being here.
So, you just heard -- maybe you did or maybe not. You just heard me paraphrase at least. Speaker Johnson said that the House is not going to vote on a standalone bill to pay U.S. service members during the shutdown. He said that earlier today. The congresswoman from Virginia wanted that. He said, the only way that troops are going to get paid is if Democrats vote for the continuing resolution. The American people seem right now kind of split on who to blame for the shutdown. I guess a plurality blame it on Republicans. But Democrats, maybe 30 percent, are being blamed for the shutdown.
I think we can agree that the vast majority of troops or the vast majority of American people believe that troops should be paid. What do you make of this all in terms of like this move to have the troops be paid?
REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): You know, we have always come together in a bipartisan way, however bitterly we may be divided over a shutdown and said unanimously, we're going to pay our troops. They should not pay a cost and not get paid while we are settling out reopening government. That has always been something that has happened until we hit these Republicans in Congress and this particular president.
[18:05:00]
And Mike Johnson said something even worse earlier. He said it was a show vote. And it just shows the absolute disregard that he has for the people who are caught in this shutdown, the people who are having to go to work and not be paid or sent home and furloughed, and having that back pay, which is guaranteed to them under law, be threatened by this president.
And it is a continuation of the policies that we have seen and why we are in this shutdown that Republicans have imposed. They said to American voters on day one, we're going to lower your costs. They have come in every single day and made life harder and more expensive. And nowhere is that more evident in what they have done to healthcare.
And I have a little sympathy for Mike because I too would not want to have to explain to the American people that we took $500 billion out of Medicare, 800 billion out of Medicaid, that we are disrupting the entire market of the ACA, that we have cut off medical research all to pay for tax cuts that we made permanent for the very wealthiest Americans.
TAPPER: So, you're blaming the Republicans for the shutdown. But a point of fact, it's the Democrats in the Senate who are refusing to vote for the clean continuing resolution to fund the government for seven weeks. I mean, that just -- it's just as a point of fact, the way that we have always covered shutdowns is that the party that is not voting for the C.R., the continuing resolution to fund the government, is the party that is blocking the government funding and is responsible for the shutdown. That's how we did it the last time in 2018, 2019. That's the time we did before that during the Obama administration. I mean, it's your party that is refusing in the Senate that is refusing to vote for the continuing resolution.
CLARK: Well, we are refusing to vote for that because it would does not address this healthcare crisis that they have continued. And not only is it what they did in the big, ugly law, but it is even in the C.R. where they've taken away healthcare from 4 million more additional people. We have been saying to them since March, work with us, work to improve a healthcare system that wasn't working very well for people when the Trump administration began. And they are dismantling it, dismantling it. So, come to the table and negotiate.
TAPPER: Do you have legislation -- I know you have this. The Democrats' continuing resolution has a lot of restoration of the Medicaid funding that was cut or reformed, as Speaker Johnson puts it, during the negotiations over the big bill, the Big, Beautiful Bill Act.
Do you have a clean bill? Given the fact that obviously you're not going to get all of that, and it seems like the Obamacare or ACA premiums, the subsidies are what you're really focused on, at least rhetorically. Do Democrats have a bill that would just do that legislation? Because we've seen that there are Republicans out there, like Congresswoman and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who seem open to supporting extending these subsidies. Does that legislation exist?
CLARK: You know, we have proposal after proposal that has talked about this. We have been talking about if we just want to focus in on the ACA and put all the other cuts aside for a moment, there is an urgency around this that seems to be lacking in Republicans' understanding.
TAPPER: But it's -- right. The subsidies expire at the end of 2025, at the end of the year.
CLARK: That's right. And right now people are getting the premium notices and open enrollment begins November 1st. And Republicans are saying, trust us, we'll come back.
I think in your interview, Mike Johnson said this is a December 31st issue. That is the date where the tax breaks for billionaires become permanent and the tax credits for hardworking people go away and expire. So, when they go into the open ACA enrollment period on November 1st, that is where people are going to make decisions on whether they can afford to stay in their small business, whether they can afford to take care of a loved one to get their cancer treatments or not.
And for them to say, well, you should just continue this until November 20th. And then what happens? These decisions will already have been made.
TAPPER: Take a listen to Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, Republican of Georgia, who's just spoke with our own Manu Raju.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): It is hurting so many people, Manu. Seriously, so many people across the board, no matter how many -- how they vote, I'm literally calling it out and saying, let's take off our Democrat jerseys, let's take off our Republican jerseys and we should do something responsible for the American people and fix this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:10:13]
TAPPER: Have any Democrats reached out to Marjorie Taylor Greene to try to get her on board so that if this does come up for a vote, you can actually have it ready to go?
CLARK: I mean, it sounds like she is on board because you know what she wrote? She wrote that her adult children got their premium notices and are going to have a hard time affording it.
In my district, if you make $88,000 as a couple, those premiums are going to double. That same couple at that same income level in Mike Johnson's district, that's triple. So, I don't want to hear from them that somehow we are the ones shutting down --
TAPPER: You're the minority party. You need Republican votes for this to pass in the House. I mean, there are three Republicans who represent districts that Kamala Harris won in the election. I don't need to tell you that. And there's Marjorie Taylor Greene. That's four. There's your vote. You know, you need those four votes plus all the Democrats, right?
CLARK: Yes, of course we do. But we're not even --
TAPPER: But you're not reaching out to them is what I'm saying.
CLARK: We're not even in session. What vote are we going to have? Let's have a vote. Let's put it up. I'd be happy to work with --
TAPPER: Well, her phone works right now.
CLARK: -- and other people.
TAPPER: You don't need to be in session to reach out to her to get this momentum going uf you really believe in this. CLARK: The momentum we need to get going, Jake, is that the Republicans need to come to the negotiating table. They need to remember who sent them here. It's not Donald Trump. It's not their billionaire donors. It's the people of this country. When we have 60 percent of Americans who cannot provide the basics for their families and we have the arrogance of the Republican Party to say, you sign our bill, we'll get back to you in December.
Like why would we even believe that? They have shown no regard for American people who are saying, we are drowning, we're not making it. And it should not be a luxury item to be able to take your child to the pediatrician, for your spouse to be able to have that cancer treatment, for the moms we are talking to. Just today, a woman from West Virginia who relies on the ACA for her health insurance and relies on Medicaid for her non-verbal brother, who she takes care of full-time. Without those two supports, her life falls apart.
It's not a red state or a blue state, Republican, Democratic issue. Come to the table. Fight for the people who sent you here. We know we're in the minority, but we can negotiate. We can make some progress. And the arrogance they're treating and the disrespect from everyday working people to our troops to say, we're just going to go home and you guys just will have to take it from us, we'll get you working for the American people someday soon, stay tuned.
TAPPER: Congresswoman Katherine Clark, a Democrat from Massachusetts, one of the members of the House Democratic Leadership, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.
CLARK: Thank you.
TAPPER: Former FBI Director James Comey's criminal trial is now set for January 5th. How he plans to try and get the case completely tossed out of court before there's even a hearing, that's next.
Plus, police have arrested an arson suspect in the Los Angeles area of the Palisades fire. And police say they found a disturbing A.I.- generated image on his devices.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:00]
TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, after pleading not guilty to two felony charges at his arraignment earlier today, former FBI Director James Comey's criminal trial is now set for January 5th. His lawyers want the case tossed out all together before it even makes it to a jury. Comey is charged with providing false statements to Congress and obstructing a Congressional proceeding.
Joining us now to discuss CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez and Gene Rossi, former assistant U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, where this case is being handled.
Evan, how is Comey and his legal team -- how are Comey and his legal team planning to get the charges thrown out all together?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, these types of motions that they're planning to make, there are a number of them that they are scheduling between now and January 5th, they almost never succeed, Jake. The first of them is going to be the most important one. I think it's the selective or vindictive prosecution. Normally, these fail, right? Judges are very reluctant to throw out charges that have been approved by a grand jury, but this is not a normal case.
TAPPER: Right.
PEREZ: We've never seen a case where the president of the United States has played such -- like just looming over this case, right, where he's been calling for Comey's prosecution, where he fired the former U.S. attorney who was resisting bringing it and installed his own personal lawyer to bring this case. So, we've never seen one like this. And so that's why, you know, it's not clear whether this is going to fail, like most of these usually do.
And then the other one is obviously whether Halligan, Lindsey Halligan, who's the current U.S. attorney, whether she's legally appointed because the former U.S. attorney had already served 120 days, which is under statute the limit of what those appointments are.
TAPPER: So, Gene, this is what we know about the case.
GENE ROSSI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes.
TAPPER: We know that if we think it is this Arctic Hayes leak investigation, in which Comey was investigated way back in 2017, for bringing in his friend, Daniel Richmond, telling him stuff, and then the accusation was that Richmond then leaked it to the press on his behalf in four specific stories.
We know from the release of those FBI documents for that 2017 leak investigation that Richmond denies it. Comey denies it. We know that John Durham, the special right counsel who had been called to look into any malfeasance during the Russia investigation, didn't think that he could bring charges against Comey for it. We know that the former U.S. attorney, Eric Siebert, who was fired a few weeks ago, he didn't think he could bring charges for it. Do Comey's lawyers have a good case to make that this isn't a case that would've been brought to trial without Trump demanding it?
ROSSI: Okay. If Donald Trump had not demanded it, I think the motion for vindictive prosecution would be relatively weak because the case law on vindictive prosecution is tough.
[18:20:08]
But this is sui generis. This is first among equals. The conduct of Mr. Trump before the indictment, all his statements and all that, and that he sent his personal attorney to present it to the grand jury is fertile ground for vindictive prosecution.
I want to just alert your viewers to this. A judge in Nashville, I think, last week granted a motion made by the defendants in the Abrego Garcia case to allow discovery on the issue of vindictive prosecution. If I'm a prosecutor, that would scare the heck out of me. Because what that'll do is it'll allow the defense to call witnesses, possibly get documents to show the malevolent motive of the president and the people in the Justice Department. I think this is a fertile ground.
I do think this though. Sam Alito is probably going to save this case. When he was with the Justice Department, he, Sam Alito, wrote a memo saying, every U.S. attorney district gets one bite at the apple. You get one interim U.S. attorney. You don't get two. She is two. So, arguably, she's illegal. So Judge Nachmanoff, who I'm friends with, he's a great judge, he's brilliant, he's fair, I peered in front of him, I got to tell you, those two issues have legs.
The third issue that nobody's talking about is grand jury abuse. If you present an indictment to the grand jury, Jake, and you don't provide substantial exculpatory evidence, and there's substantial exculpatory evidence, if you fail to do that, the Supreme Court says you could have a motion to dismiss the indictment. It's very rare, but it could happen.
TAPPER: A lot of big challenges for Lindsey Halligan, who is not an experienced prosecutor, to say the least here, Evan.
PEREZ: That's right. Look, I mean, you know, the judge -- one of the things the judge pointed out today is that, you know, this classified evidence that the prosecutors say they have, he's going to -- he says you're going to have to do this quickly because he wants this happening on January 5th.
TAPPER: All right. Evan Perez and Gene Rossi, thanks to both you, I really appreciate it.
ROSSI: Thank you.
TAPPER: Police today say the arson suspect in the Los Angeles area Palisade fire casually took videos of the view just before setting the blaze. What we're learning about how all this unfolded, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:00]
TAPPER: In our National Lead, a major arrest months after the deadly Palisades wildfire that killed 12 people back in January of this year. Investigators say 29-year-old Jonathan Rinderknecht from Florida ignited the fire, then filmed firefighters trying to put it out.
CNN's Veronica Miracles in the Palisades area bracket. Veronica, this was a very long investigation. What evidence did law enforcement uncover?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, investigators say they found the suspect and arrested him in Florida where he currently lives now, but at one point he lived here in the Pacific Palisades about a block away from the trailhead where investigators believed this fire began. They conducted hundreds of interviews, including some overseas, and they say they extracted data from his phone, including an image that he apparently produced on ChatGPT a few months before this fire began that shows a city burning with people fleeing. They also say that he was listening to a French song on repeat. Apparently, he was raised in France, new French, and this song shows the main character in the music video lighting things on fire.
Investigators say, over the course of this year, it went through 13,000 pieces of evidence. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY COOPER, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE OF ATF L.A. FIELD DIVISION: Part of the lengthy time that it took to go over the thousands of acres that were burned is we literally had agents with our partners on their hands and knees crawling through fire debris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIRACLE: In a criminal complaint, it says the suspect was apparently driving for Uber the night that the fire was erupted, the night the fire began, and that he had actually dropped off two passengers near the trailhead where this fire started and eventually became the Palisades fire. They say he was the only person near the trail head at the time of the fire, and also there's surveillance video that shows his car near that trail head on January 1st. One week later, that fire erupted into the Palisades fire. He's facing a minimum of 5 years, up to 20 years in federal prison. Jake?
TAPPER: All right. Veronica Miracle in Los Angeles, thanks so much.
A Gaza ceasefire deal could be very close. That's the latest from the senior official from the terrorist group, Hamas. The latest on what details still need to be ironed out, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
TAPPER: In our World Lead, we can all hope that an end to the brutal two-year war in Gaza may finally be in sight. The U.S. secretary of state, Marco Rubio, earlier today handed a handwritten note to President Trump during a separate event at the White House this afternoon. It said the note, quote, we need you to approve a Truth Social post soon so you can announce the deal first, unquote. The deal based on a 20-point ceasefire plan presented to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last week. The White House just announced President Trump might even soon be traveling to the Middle East.
Joining us now, CNN National Security Correspondent Kylie Atwood and Dana Stroul, the former top civilian Pentagon official on the Middle East, and a current research director at the Washington Institute.
Kylie, what are the biggest remaining hurdles right now?
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's clear that there's some dramatic positive momentum right here. I mean, you don't see the secretary of state hand a note to the president saying that they're very close, unless they actually are very close. But there are still issues that could be deal breakers, right? If the agreed to parties come to something and then they bring it back to the leaders of Hamas, or they bring it back to the prime minister's office or even President Trump and they say, this doesn't look quite right, this could still go off the tracks.
And there's a few things to consider here. The first of which is that we're not sure that Hamas actually knows where the bodies of all of these prisoners, particularly the ones who are dead right now actually are. So, can they hand over, excuse me, the hostages? So, can they actually hand over all of those hostages, which is part of what would be this first phase of the deal? We don't know that they can.
The other thing to consider, of course, is the fact that there are some Palestinian prisoners who we know that Palestinians are really supportive of. They want to be released as part of what would be considered an exchange here. And we're hearing from Israeli sources that those specific ones are not going to be released. And then you have to, of course, consider the fact that the Israeli parliament, they're going to have to actually approve this in a vote. So, even though there might be political sign off, there's still a process back home in Israel that's going to have to go through. So, you have to consider all of those factors as we get down to what could be the wire here.
TAPPER: And, Dana, you met directly with officials in the Middle East when you served at the Pentagon.
[18:35:00]
Take us inside these negotiations. How fragile are conversations like these? How close do you think we are actually to a finish line here?
DANA STROUL, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR THE MIDDLE EAST: I think we're really close. I have not, in the years that I've watched, the two years of these ceasefire negotiations, heard so many officials from so many capitals be so optimistic. Kylie's right, it's the same issues, which Palestinian prisoners, can Hamas deliver all of the hostages, both the living and the deceased? Exactly what is that withdrawal line for the Israeli military? And where, what are the checkpoints where the humanitarian aid will get in? But the difference this time is there's such a convergence from Arab leaders, Muslim leaders, Turkey, Washington and Jerusalem, and President Trump has put his own name on the line to get this done.
TAPPER: And, Kylie, you know, one of the things that's curious here is that President Trump said last week, I think it was, when the momentum started for this, that he told Netanyahu to stop the bombing. The bombing is still happening, though, maybe not as much, but it's still going on. At least eight people were killed and dozens injured in the past 24 hours, according to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health. When would these strikes stop? I mean, Trump already called to front them to stop and Netanyahu's still doing it. ATWOOD: Yes. Though we've talked to U.S. officials and they say that they have decreased and they think that when there's an agreed to deal, that's when the bombings are going to stop, because in order to actually get out these hostages, you can't have active warfare going on in Gaza. So, Israel would then have to agree.
The other thing that Israel would have to do is withdraw its troops to an agreed to line, and that has been one of the other conflict issues that we know that negotiators have been discussing, what is that line that the Israelis feel comfortable withdrawing to at this time as sort of this first phase of an interim deal that President Trump wants to turn into a bigger deal to bring actual peace to Gaza. There's still many pieces that would have to fall into place for that to be the follow-on if this does come to fruition.
TAPPER: Dana, it seems to me, and, you know, you're the expert, not me, but it seems to me Hamas has never expressed any willingness to disarm and to hand over power. And, you know, I texted President Trump over the weekend, like what happens if they don't? And he said, complete obliteration.
But I know the Arab League is actually called for Hamas to not be part of any future Palestinian state. Is there a realistic possibility that Hamas actually would, for peace, say, okay, we're going to, you know, go to some desert island somewhere and live lives of luxury and not be part of this?
STROUL: Look, this is a terrorist organization. They're not a responsible member of the community of nations. So, for Hamas, no matter what this agreement is that could be announced within minutes or hours, they're going to look for a way to say, we won, we're victorious.
Right now, again, we're talking about these very tactical issues, numbers of hostages, living and dead, the prisoners, the IDF withdrawal line, as Kylie said, and the humanitarian aid, they haven't actually gotten to those big things that you're talking about dismantlement, giving up their governor's position, whether they get to be part of some Palestinian national dialogue. And they can't do that if they commit to peaceful coexistence with Israel and non- violence. And that is what they are as a terrorist organization, they're not going to commit to peaceful coexistence.
So, getting to this agreement today means they feel such pressure, both militarily and politically, from all of these outside actors that they have no choice, that survival can come through this ceasefire rather than continuing the fight.
TAPPER: All right. Dana Stroul, Kylie Atwood, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.
President Trump's Department of Homeland Security is throwing some shade at a major country music star over lyrics in his song he has not even released yet. How is he responding to this backlash? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:40:00]
TAPPER: Our Health Lead now, in the last 24 hours, President Trump re-Truth this message to his millions of followers, quote, pregnant women, don't use Tylenol unless absolutely necessary. Don't give Tylenol to your young child for virtually any reason. Break up the MMM, that's measles, mumps, rubella shot, into three totally separate shots, not mixed. Take chicken pox shot separately, take hepatitis B shot at 12 years old or older, and importantly, take vaccine in five separate medical visits, unquote.
So, that's a lot from Dr. Trump. Let's be clear, Tylenol and the combination MMR vaccine have been repeatedly proven safe. Delaying the Hepatitis B vaccine can be life-threatening for some infants.
Joining us now to discuss Dr. Richard Carmona, he served as U.S. surgeon general under President George W. Bush. He's one of six former surgeons general who co-authored a Washington Post op-Ed warning that HHS Secretary RFK Jr. is endangering the health of the nation. Doctor, thanks for joining us.
Let's start with the president in that post urging pregnant women to avoid Tylenol, to break up the MMR shot and the rest. What is your response as a physician?
DR. RICHARD CARMONA, FORMER U.S. SURGEON GENERAL, GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION: All my response from -- to your question is, at no time should the public be taking medical advice from a politician. That's what physicians are for. That's what scientists are for, our NIH or CDC and so on. Unfortunately, many of those critical positions are vacant now because of ideological pursuits. And we're suffering from the loss of their leadership.
TAPPER: You and five other former surgeons general say that RFK Jr. is, quote, endangering the health of the nation, unquote. What specifically is he doing that you believe is putting lives at risk?
CARMONA: Well, I would say the first thing that is probably most problematic is that he is spreading misinformation and disinformation.
[18:45:00]
He's creating divisiveness among the public. They don't know who to turn to when your government and the senior most health official at HHS is giving bad information based on ideology, the challenge is, of course, that people don't know where to turn for good information.
And so, what we're seeing now is less children getting vaccinated, people worried about taking Tylenol, things like that. There is no scientific validity to anything that the president has said or Mr. Kennedy has said.
TAPPER: Trump's acting CDC director is calling to separate the MMR shot, measles, mumps, rubella, despite zero evidence that that would be safer. I know from having kids, subjecting a kid to three shots instead of one is not something that I would look forward to as a doctor or a parent.
What would it mean for public health if the MMR shot was separated into different shots?
CARMONA: Well, I think it makes it more makes it more difficult, challenging to be able to schedule appointments, go to multiple appointments when you can get one. And the fact is, as you pointed out, the science is quite clear that there is no evidence whatsoever that this should be split up for any reason.
I have no idea where this information came from, but since they have disbanded our ACIP team at CDC that gave the scientific information as to how best to do this, a lot of the information, we can't figure out where its coming from. It's not scientifically valid.
TAPPER: You write that mismanaging HHS, quote, undermines national security, unquote. How so? What's at stake if the kind of policies and claims go unchecked, how does it undermine national security?
CARMONA: Well, starting with a population that is going to have a preventable disease and economic burden, well start seeing diseases like measles that are coming back now where children are sick and even some children have died. As more and more people are unvaccinated, more and more people get sick. That ripples across the country and it gets into our military as well. So, we have soldiers and sailors and so on that are not being adequately vaccinated.
Then there's the issue of Tylenol and all the other myths that they are propagating that are making it very uncertain for the public. Then you take it to a global level. The rest of the world often depends on our scientific acumen as to what best practices are. That's being dismantled now, where were leading with ideology and leading with mis- and disinformation. So now our allies globally don't trust us.
So, all of those things are very important, and our democracy is struggling right now.
TAPPER: Former surgeon general, Richard Carmona -- thank you so much, sir. Really appreciate it.
CARMONA: Thank you, sir.
TAPPER: My panel joins me now.
Mike Dubke, let me just ask you, like aside from the obvious health risks of all this misinformation and sowing doubt, is there a political advantage for President Trump and HHS Secretary Kennedy to be doing this like?
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, they must think that there is a political advantage. I saw today Whole Foods is saying that beef tallow is making a comeback.
And, you know, why am I bringing that up? Because that is part beef tallow rather than seed oils is part of this movement. And, you know, you have a U.S. company that is seeing a growth with chefs and consumers buying this stuff.
So, there is a marketplace for that. And there must be a political reason for it. But it is a -- you know, it's a dangerous path to go down. My concern is that the feeling of distrust predates Kennedy --
TAPPER: Sure.
DUBKE: -- with CDC, and this is just continuing that distrust that the American people started having around COVID, and it's continuing. And I do think there's some political landmines around that. But, yeah, there's an audience for this.
TAPPER: What do you think, Karen?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's just so dangerous. And part of what is so heartbreaking is that it is people who low information Americans, usually low income or people as the as the doctor was just pointing out who maybe can't go to the doctor three times to get their kids the shots and the confusion. Just since Trump made those comments about Tylenol, the confusion that we've seen in people trying to get accurate information and figure out what is the source of information I can trust. It's incredibly dangerous.
It's dangerous because of disinformation, but it is. It does put people's health at risk.
TAPPER: We have interviewed authors not crackpots, but respected physicians and professors about mistakes made during COVID. In terms of being too eager to shut down the schools. The mask thing, and on and on is --
DUBKE: Groceries.
TAPPER: Yeah, exactly. Remember when everybody was washing their groceries?
Obviously, you know, I have sympathy for public health officials during a once in a century pandemic. And obviously, some things are said. And then it turned out to be not true and this and that. But do you think that the medical establishment bears any responsibility for some of the distrust, that people like Kennedy are now able to, to use?
FINNEY: Well, I think it's -- I think some of that, yes, as well as the political leadership at the time telling us to, you know, swallow bleach and things like that. I mean, I think and again, I agree with you, I have a lot of empathy for people. I mean, remember how people were dying at such --
TAPPER: Yeah, it was crazy.
FINNEY: It was such a fast rate. I imagine that it was hard to -- and we were in the beginning and they were trying to understand the science, but it would -- sure, it would have been helpful to at some point come out and say, okay, here's what we know at this point, and here's where the mistakes were. Although I will tell you, I say this as my mother just spent ten days
in the hospital. She's 82, she got COVID. So, COVID is still a very real problem.
TAPPER: In the hospital?
FINNEY: Yes, in the hospital. She's now home with pneumonia. And you know, the doctors at the hospital said they're very concerned that this season for COVID is going to be very bad because more people, fewer people are able to actually get the vaccine.
TAPPER: Let me turn to another topic, because the Department of Homeland Security is now slamming country music star Zach Bryan over his new unreleased song in which Bryan sings about immigration raids by ICE. Bryan took to Instagram and wrote in part, quote, everyone using this now as a weapon is only proving how devastatingly divided we all are. We need to find our way back, left wing or right wing. We're all one bird and American.
Mike, it's not too often that we see the Department of homeland security attacking a country music star. Although, you know, I guess it's not unprecedented. We have heard -- I remember when the Dixie Chicks and George W. Bush, that was a whole thing. And obviously, DHS has also weighed in on Bad Bunny, et cetera, et cetera.
What do you make of it all?
DUBKE: Well, I -- I will admit, I did not know who Zach Bryan was, so to be smart about this, I went to see what the controversy was. And frankly, some of the lyrics about ice coming to your door and we won't be able to build your houses. I mean, this seemed more like a marketing ploy to me than anything else, but I will say at the end of that, at the end of that video was a commercial by DHS about self- deportation.
TAPPER: Is that right?
DUBKE: So I got caught up in the algorithm, Zach Brown and Kristi Noem.
TAPPER: So, speaking of country music, Dolly Parton thankfully gave us an update. Everybody was really worried because her -- she had to cancel some appearances. Her sister put out a tweet or social media post saying, pray for Dolly.
FINNEY: Yeah.
TAPPER: And -- but then here's Dolly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLY PARTON, SINGER: Everybody thinks that I am sicker than I am. Do I look sick to you? I'm working hard here. Anyway, I wanted to put everybody's mind at ease. Those of you that seem to be real concerned, which I appreciate, and I appreciate your prayers because I'm a person of faith. I can always use the prayers for anything and everything, but I want you to know that I'm okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, there is a god. Dolly Parton's okay. There is a god.
(LAUGHTER)
DUBKE: It's a country music god.
TAPPER: It's a country.
DUBKE: Yeah.
FINNEY: Who doesn't love Dolly Parton? Come on.
TAPPER: Yeah. No, I agree.
FINNEY: We love her.
Can I just say, though, you don't need your sister tweeting about your health, your business, right? Like, don't -- don't tweet.
TAPPER: She probably just like a lot of people very legitimately believe in the -- in the power of prayer. And she maybe just wanted some prayers for her sister.
FINNEY: Okay, maybe I don't know. But good news. Dolly's all right. She's back and she'll be singing.
DUBKE: This all worked out. This is a good news story.
FINNEY: Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl.
TAPPER: We like it.
DUBKE: Actually. Bad Bunny, Dolly Parton, Super Bowl, that would save the NFL.
FINNEY: Come on.
TAPPER: Speaking of that, speaking of interesting performances, former vice president Kamala Harris was at an event in Los Angeles Monday, and here is Vice President Harris summing up today's political landscape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Because there is so much about this moment that is trying to make people feel like they've lost their mind, when in fact, these mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I told them not to bleep it, but --
FINNEY: We were just talking about a president who thinks he's a doctor telling people whether or not to take Tylenol. I don't know.
TAPPER: These motherf-ers are crazy.
FINNEY: She kind of got a point.
TAPPER: I think she has a point.
DUBKE: She's trying to out Gavin Newsom Gavin Newsom, is trying to out-Trump Trump, and it is not possible to out-Trump Trump.
FINNEY: It has been previously reported --
DUBKE: Look, all of this -- all of this is marketing. You got Zach Brown with his marketing program and her infos for selling her book. Yeah.
TAPPER: Mike and Karen, thanks so much. Appreciate it. We do have some major breaking news from President Trump. And that's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:53]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
TAPPER: We do have some breaking news for you now. President Trump did finally post on Truth Social moments ago that a Gaza ceasefire deal has been reached.
Let's go straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House -- Kaitlan.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake, we have been waiting to see if the president was going to post. And when. It was a question that the White House officials said was going to come very soon. And now the president has posted on Truth Social that an agreement has been reached between Israel and Hamas to bring the war in Gaza to an end.
I want to read to you in full what the president said here, Jake. He said, I am very proud to announce that Israel and Hamas have both signed off on the first phase of our peace plan. That means that all of the hostages will be released very soon, and Israel will withdraw their troops to an agreed upon line as the first steps toward a strong, durable and everlasting peace.
He said all parties will be treated fairly, and this is a great day for the Arab and Muslim world. Israel, all surrounding nations, and the United States of America.
And, Jake, he thanked the mediators of Qatar, Egypt and Turkey who worked with us to make this historic and unprecedented event happen. Blessed are the peacemakers. Signed by the president of the United States, Jake. And obviously, the huge takeaway here from the beginning of that is he
says, this is the first phase of this deal. Obviously, what the president had unveiled when the prime minister of Israel was here just last week, was this agreement that within 72 hours of Israel and Hamas agreeing to this deal, that all of those hostages would be released, that are still being held in Gaza? We know there's about 20 who are alive and 28 who are not alive. Jake. So, obviously, that's the question here to watch that.
And also, what happens with the IDF that is in Gaza on the ground right now and how much they withdraw and what that looks like. But this on top of that announcement from the press secretary earlier that the president is considering traveling to the Middle East in the coming days. Obviously, Jake, is a moment that this White House has been working toward ever since President Trump took office back in January.
TAPPER: What do we know about his travel plans? Kaitlan, you said earlier in the show that the White House announced the president was going to be going to Walter Reed to meet with troops and also have a checkup and that he might -- he's thinking about traveling to the Middle East after that. Do we know anything more than that?
COLLINS: Yeah, Jake, that's the question of where he could go in the Middle East, because all of this has been happening in the past few days in Egypt. That is where the mediators have been. We know that's where the top negotiators for both sides, for Israel and Hamas have been. Whether the president himself goes to Egypt when he travels in the coming days, and if that actually happens, remains to be seen. If he chooses to go to Israel also is something that we don't really know yet at this point, Jake, of how this is going to shake out in terms of the signing here in and of itself.
I mean, as this agreement is going to be signed and will likely get more details, as clearly both sides here wanted the president to be able to be the one to formally announce this, Jake, as we've been seeing some rumblings, as I'm sure you had online of what this was going to look like here. They clearly waited for the president to announce this, and so, I would expect him to certainly travel to the Middle East based on what we've been hearing from White House officials.
TAPPER: I don't want to diminish the importance of this. And obviously, blessed are the peacemakers, indeed. But it is worth pointing out this is a ceasefire deal, right? This is not a larger peace deal about a Palestinian state of any sort. And who gets to rule a Palestinian state and Israel gets security guarantees. How and all that. That is still TBD, right?
COLLINS: I mean, yes, yes, but -- because the "yes but" part of that is that, yes, this is the first phase of this deal where the two key parts of that was a ceasefire and the release of the hostages, and also the release of Palestinian prisoners that are being held in Israel.
But obviously, Jake, that peace plan had 20 points to it. There were many more points about disarming Hamas, Hamas having no role in governing Gaza. What the Palestinian Authority has to do in order for them to have any role, the eventual creation of a Palestinian state that the prime minister has firmly rejected on many occasions.
Those are the really hard parts, Jake. And so that is the question going forward of what exactly that's going to look like. Right now, we don't know. But he says its the first phase of the peace deal, Jake.
TAPPER: Well, let us hope that the cease fire is real and holds too much death and destruction.
Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much for your reporting. You can check out more with Kaitlan later tonight. She'll be hosting her show "THE SOURCE" at 9:00.
Until tomorrow, you can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN.
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Our breaking news coverage now continues with "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT".
