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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Emotional Reunions And Ceasefire Deal Signing Mark Historic Day; Trump Admin Reinstates Hundreds Of CDC Staffers Mistakenly Fired; Top Prosecutor Removed As Trump Ally Reshapes Key DOJ Office; Obama Rips Businesses, Law Firms For Conceding To Trump; Annie Lennox Looks Back At Career In Visual Memoir. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 13, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper.

This hour, home at last. After two years and six days of being held in captivity by Hamas, the remaining living hostages crossed the border from Gaza into Israel. We will bring you stories of families reunited as President Trump hails a dawn of the new Middle East.

Plus, as the government shutdown drags on, the Trump administration fired thousands of federal workers only to have to hit the undo button, after realizing some of those workers are actually in critical positions.

And speaking of personnel changes, the Justice Department has removed yet another senior prosecutor in the office that charged former FBI Director James Comey. The source saying Trump's handpicked U.S. attorney there is interested in moving around prosecutors who may oppose her work.

The Lead tonight, the 20 living hostages captured by Hamas and hundreds of Palestinian detainees held by Israel now walk free again. The hostages' reunions with loved ones and the cheers throughout the streets of Israel and along the West Bank creating a momentous day, for deceased hostages also transported back to Israel after Hamas handed over their coffins to the Red Cross the entire day, part of the first phase of the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: This is the end of an age of terror and death, and the beginning of the age of faith and hope and of God. It is the start of a grand concord and lasting harmony for Israel and all the nations of what will soon be a truly magnificent region. I believe that so strongly. This is the historic dawn of a new Middle East.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: President Trump speaking before is Israel's parliament for more than an hour today before heading to Egypt, where alongside other world leaders he signed the deal that the entire region is now hoping will bring an end to the brutal two-year war between Israel and Hamas.

There is so much to cover on this momentous day, and we begin with CNN Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward in those incredible scenes of reunion.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Two years of anguish and agony finally giving way to joy. For the mother of 23-year-old hostage Bar Kupershtein taken at the Nova Music Festival on October 7th, this was the hug she had dreamed of.

Bar's paralyzed father is helped out of his wheelchair so he can finally hold his son amid whales of raw emotion.

For hostage Segev Kalfon, even the sight of his family was all too much. Scenes of tearful reunions between the final 20 living Israeli hostages and their families punctuated this historic day. Your home, your home, the mother of 24-year-old Guy Gilboa-Dalal cries in disbelief.

In Hostages Square, the beating heart of the movement to bring them home, tens of thousands of Israelis gathered from the early hours singing Habaita or coming home. The crowds cheered as the first images of the hostages emerged before their release. Surreal scenes of them calling their loved ones as Hamas militant stood in the background.

After reuniting with their immediate families at Ream Military Base, they were flown to hospitals looking down at the crowds gathered to welcome them home.

You can hear the crowd cheering as you see those hostages traveling via a helicopter to Ichilov Hospital. This is a moment that these people have been waiting for for 737 days.

In Gaza, they have known the pain of waiting too. Applause erupted as some 1,700 Palestinian detainees emerged from crammed buses outside the Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis. Held without charge by Israel throughout the war, they waved to the crowds tearful. Some returned to the worst possible news.

[18:05:01]

This man learned that his wife and daughters were killed in an Israeli airstrike. My wife and my children, my family is gone, he says, clutching a birthday gift for his two-year-old daughter.

For many in Gaza, joy still feels like a distant dream. Scale of loss and destruction leaves little room for it. And as Israel turns the page on a very dark chapter, Gaza is opening a new and uncertain life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WAR (on camera): Now, Phil, in addition to those 20 living Israeli hostages, we were also expecting to see the remains of further 28 deceased Israeli hostages. Now, we did see those four coffins earlier this evening that emerged from Gaza into Israel so those families can finally have some closure and grieve. But that clock that you may have noticed in Hostages Square in our story that has been taking count of every minute, every hour, every day since those hostages were first taken on October 7th, that clock will continue to tick until all of the bodies of all of the hostages are finally home, Phil, and that could still take quite some time.

MATTINGLY: Clarissa Ward, you and your team have been doing extraordinary work, as always, live for us in Tel Aviv. Thank you very much.

Joining me now is Eliav Benjamin, the deputy chief of Mission at the Israeli Embassy here in Washington. Thank you very much for joining me. I can only imagine what the last few days, like the last couple years have been like for you just to start with this moment for Israelis, for Jewish people worldwide, explain to people what today felt like.

ELIAV BENJAMIN, ISRAELI DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Well, thank you, Phil. It's the ultimate feeling of mixed feelings, because on the one hand, we are over the moon with joy with the release of 20 of our live hostages and four deceased hostages as well. The visit of president in Israel, president -- this is an amazing visit of his, very short, addressing the Knesset. People are celebrating in the streets. But at the same time, we're still waiting for another 24 deceased hostages to come back home and to see that we go through with the next phase of this arrangement.

MATTINGLY: The 24 bodies of the deceased that have not been returned to this point, there was a 72-hour window for phase one to be completed. That was within the 72-hour window. In your view, does that mean that the agreement has been broken on some level?

BENJAMIN: True. There were 72 hours that were given. But let's also remember that 70 hours were also given a week ago. And the reality on the ground is much more complicated than it is on paper. We are holding them accountable. We're holding Hamas accountable to stand -- to keep its end of the deal.

And we expect them to do so until the very last hostage that returns. And we expect them to do it. And we expect the entire international community to lean hard on Hamas, as they leaned hard on them to actually come to the table and to make this deal happen, to actually go through with it.

MATTINGLY: You mentioned President Trump's remarks today in front of the Knesset, very powerful remarks. But they also included a very pointed statement about the war and what it means going forward. I want you to take a listen to it real quick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Israel, with our help, has won all that they can by force of arms. You've won. I mean, you've won. Now, it's time to translate these victories against terrorists on the battlefield into the ultimate prize of peace and prosperity for the entire Middle East. It's about time you were able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: The president has repeatedly made the point the war is over in his eyes. Do you believe that's the case?

BENJAMIN: He spoke about -- the prime minister speaks about peace through strength, which is exactly what we have achieved with the strength part of it, making people understand that we will not bend and we will fight for what is right and fight for our survival and fight for a better Middle East. We are at a much better Middle East today than we were yesterday or than we were a year or two ago, a much better place not just for Israel, but for the entire region and actually for the world. And we'll make sure that this happens.

We still haven't finished the job. We still need to make sure that Hamas goes through with their part of the deal of disarming themselves, not governing Gaza anymore, and not posing a threat, not to their people, nor to our people.

[18:10:02]

MATTINGLY: What's your understanding of that process, kind of the next phases here? I think the one most people are trying to figure out right now is the combination of demilitarization but also governance of Gaza. Do you believe there's a firm understanding and agreement on what that will look like in the weeks and months ahead?

BENJAMIN: Oh, 100 percent. The idea is that Hamas is no longer in control, not militarily and not governance-wise, but rather other forces that come in and start building the alternative that we've all been working for tirelessly over these past couple of years, again, for the for the future of their own people.

And this will be done through international work. We're seeing just now, as we speak now the -- or today, the summit in Sharm El-Sheikh hosted by President El-Sisi with, of course, with President Trump and other world leaders working exactly towards this, to making sure that Hamas is no longer in control and this is the stepping stone for the broader Middle East for a better place.

MATTINGLY: It was a remarkable day. It's first time, I think, hope has really felt palpable in a very long time.

Eliav Benjamin, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

BENJAMIN: Thank you, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Well, more moving scenes from reunions between these now former hostages and their loved ones. One of them, Avinatan Or, first saw his parents, then he saw his girlfriend, Noa Argamani, who was also captured at the Nova Music Festival and then later rescue by Israeli Forces last year.

Next up, a look at how Gaza is impacted by this ceasefire deal. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

MATTINGLY: We are back with our World Lead. 250 long-term Palestinian prisoners convicted by Israeli courts along with more than 1,700 Palestinian detainees who've been held without charge throughout the war were released by Israel today as part of the ceasefire agreement, their homecoming sparking joy in war torn Gaza.

Joining me now, Ahmed Alkhatib, the senior fellow for the Atlantic Council, he grew up in Gaza. He's been critical and has been a critic of both Hamas and Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu.

I want to start with kind of the scenes that we saw today of the releases, particularly of the detainees. Many if not most, tough to put numbers on it, not connected to Hamas have not seen what's happened to Gaza over the course of the last two years. What's your sense of their reaction to coming home and seeing what Gaza is now?

AHMED FOUAD ALKHATIB, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Well, good to be with you. Many have been shocked indeed to see what has become of their homes, of their families, of their communities. Some of their family members in Gaza were actually surprised to see them being released or to even see their names and the lists and the manifests of released prisoners because they simply thought that they were dead, that they were buried under the rubble.

And remember, we have an estimated 5,000 to 10,000 missing Palestinians in Gaza who are believed to be under the rubble, some of whom have been reported missing for over a year, presumed dead, some of whom have been picked up by the Israeli military. And so there have been jubilation, there have been sadness, there have been shock and surprise among those detainees as well as their communities, their families, and loved ones.

My sister-in-law's brother has been missing since April of 2024, and he's been captured by the Israeli military. We had hoped that he would in fact be released today. Unfortunately, he's not part of the 1,700 that have been released thus far. And that just goes to show you that who knows, maybe he's not even alive. And that's the tragedy of the situation that thousands of Palestinian families face.

MATTINGLY: President Trump, the meeting today in Egypt with other regional leaders, world leaders writ large, about the rebuilding of Gaza, he said this at one point. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Numerous countries of great wealth and power and dignity have come forward to me and just today and over the last week to say they want to help in the reconstruction of Gaza, putting up whatever money is necessary.

We also agreed that Gaza's reconstruction requires that it be demilitarized and that a new, honest civilian police force must be allowed to create a safe condition for the people in Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: The financial resources is a piece of this, and I think when you talk to White House officials, they're confident that exists, if they can get to that point. It's the latter part of that statement. What is your sense of the process toward demilitarization based on what you've seen over the course of the last couple of days in particular?

ALKHATIB: Well, as much as I'm grateful for the fact that we had phase one, I remain highly skeptical of the fact that we're going to get to a place where Hamas willingly gives up its arms, which it said it won't, where Hamas accepts the entry of an international stabilization force, where they've said they won't, where Hamas accepts the commissioning of an international overseeing board of peace, which they said they won't. And so I remain skeptical in questioning of the euphoria with which President Trump regularly speaks.

And I want to be euphoric and enthusiastic, but everybody's looking to U.S. leadership. I spoke to a senior Arab official when we were on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly. And I spoke to many of Arab officials, in fact. But one in particular of a Gulf nation who said to me point blank, listen, this is not a resource issue.

This is a leadership issue. We are all looking to U.S. leadership without which we cannot come in and basically be stuck between Hamas on one hand and Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on the other given that the United States is the only party that's capable of essentially pressuring Netanyahu and pressuring Hamas' patrons in Qatar and Turkey.

[18:20:18]

And so that's what we should be looking for in the coming weeks.

MATTINGLY: It was clearly the ability to kind of move forward with that dynamic, which other administrations, certainly the last administration weren't capable of kind of pulling together given various issues and constraints that they were all facing that led to this point. What's your belief in the durability of that moving forward?

ALKHATIB: Well, again, like I think there was something so well- defined about the immediacy of the release of hostages, and in exchange for that, Hamas wanted a very specific number of detainees, Palestinian prisoners, I should say, in accordance to a well- established formula that was already tried and tested in November of 2023 and in January of this year.

So, there was something very specific and tangible to work towards, and President Trump through his unconventional methods, through his ability to whip up enthusiasm. And Mr. Witkoff and Jared Kushner, his son-in-law were very much so able to muscle up the focus and the attention toward this goal. When it comes to the second goal, which is the phase two, if you will, of the agreement, which is the demilitarization of Gaza, the establishment of a new governance apparatus, that's a lot more nebulous, that's a lot more -- that's a lot less well defined. That's a lot less clear in terms of the milestones and the necessary steps. And so that's where I am skeptical that the same level of enthusiasm and attention that Trump had for phase one can easily be applied to phase two. I hope that I'm proven wrong.

MATTINGLY: Yes, critical weeks, critical questions ahead.

Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, I really appreciate your time and perspective. Thanks so much.

ALKHATIB: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, fire then quickly rehire, some of the Trump administration's government shutdown layoffs went a bit sideways. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

MATTINGLY: In our Politics Lead, more than half of the 1,300 CDC staffers fired on Friday night were reinstated on Saturday after the administration says the employees mistakenly received layoff notices.

Joining me now is former CDC Chief Medical Officer Dr. Debra Houry, who resigned in August in protest over the firing of CDC Director Dr. Susan Monarez.

Dr. Houry, just can you take people inside the agency right now in the last 72 hours? What is the feeling about what's been happening here?

DR. DEBRA HOURY, RESIGNED FROM CDC: Yes, it's really been whiplash for the staff and I think it's really concerning when, on Friday, people that were on the Ebola response, on measles, in charge of global health, in charge of suicide prevention were laid off from the agency and then they were brought back. And there's still groups like the ethics office that looks at conflicts of interest that the secretary cares about. The research office over the institutional review board, those things and H.R. are still all laid off. The agency can't function without many of these critical areas.

MATTINGLY: The process, to me, seemed very much like they felt like the administration needed to lay off entire offices to try and fit into kind of their legal opinion of how they could actually implement this, which without going too far down a rabbit hole here.

HOURY: Yes.

MATTINGLY: What effect does that have to public health, in your view?

HOURY: So, it's like, you know, if you want to trim something, you use a scalpel. They used a machete. And by doing that, they really, you know, took the agency, they decreased the bandwidth and the boots on the ground of people being able to respond. And I am very concerned that with the cuts that happened, and continue through the potential budget cuts, that CDC will not be able to protect the public health in our nation.

MATTINGLY: Do you feel like there is an intentional, deliberate attack on the CDC specifically from this administration?

HOURY: I do. When you look at CDC versus other agencies, CDC has had greater budget cuts and greater staffing cuts. Certainly, all of government has been experiencing things. But when you look at Health and Human Services, CDC really has had greater cuts than many other agencies.

MATTINGLY: Why do you think that is?

HOURY: I don't know why it is, but I think it's problematic because CDDC protects the health of Americans 24/7. And if they aren't able to be in the local communities and the state Health Departments and working around the world, we are all at risk.

MATTINGLY: Dr. Debra Houry, I really appreciate your time and perspective. Much more to get to on this, I have no doubt, in the weeks and months ahead. Thanks so much.

Well, another major leadership change at the Justice Department in that same office that brought charges against some of Trump's political adversaries. That's next.

Plus, you just can't get enough of the moving images of hostages reunited with their loved ones. This is Nimrod Cohen, an Israeli soldier kidnapped from a tank close to the Gaza perimeter fence, now back in the arms of his family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

MATTINGLY: Exclusive reporting in our Law and Justice Lead, another leadership shakeup in a key Justice Department office where President Trump's handpicked U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan, has already brought charges against former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James, two political adversaries of the president.

Joining me now, CNN's Katelyn Polantz and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree.

Katelyn, first to you, because I've lost track at this point with kind of what Lindsey Halligan has done since she became the U.S. attorney. What's going on here?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Phil, she does it all. That's where we are with this U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia. So, Lindsey Halligan, three weeks ago, it's been 21 days, comes in as the interim or acting appointee from Donald Trump's White House to take over this prosecutor's office.

And the latest here is that she's getting rid of her first assistant, the person who was serving in the interim right before her for three days because Trump got rid of the other person that was the leader of that office. And Lindsey Halligan has moved that person out of the Eastern District of Virginia. Her name was Maggie Cleary, and she was a more experienced trial prosecutor.

The other things that Lindsey Halligan has done leading this office is she's taken two cases that had resistance, pushback within the office among the experienced prosecutors. She's taken them through the grand jury, secured the indictments of James Comey and Letitia James, and she sat in court herself at James Comey's arraignment.

And so what we're seeing here is a deepening split between Lindsey Halligan and how she wants to run the Eastern District of Virginia and the other people, the people who've been there for years.

[18:35:12]

They're either being pushed aside, some are being fired, some are resigning, and the latest is the first assistant.

MATTINGLY: Do people, Tom, who say, look, it's president's Justice Department, he clearly believes that he should have a far more robust approach to the Justice Department from the executive office of president than any president, at least in the last 50, 60 years, what's your response to that?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's absolutely true that the president has the right to have the people he wants serve as the chief prosecutors, as the United States attorneys for these districts, no question about that.

At the same time, there has been a long tradition in the Justice Department that when prosecutors consider whether to bring charges, they typically work in a collaborative way. In other words, they'll talk to one another, they'll bounce ideas off the other. They'll say, look, this is my read of the evidence. I think they support charges, or I think they don't support charges. And through that deliberative, collaborative process, you reach ideally the right result. That's the old model.

The new model now is, as we've seen, particularly in the cases of these, you know, politically-charged prosecutions, the president is basically directing the prosecution from on high, and his orders are being carried out by his handpicked United States attorney. Not a lot of deliberation, not apparently a lot of independent judgment being brought to bear, but that's the way that this president is structuring his relationship with the Justice Department.

MATTINGLY: Can I just ask you real quick? Why does EDVA matter? Like for people who are like, what's the Eastern District of Virginia? Why do I care about that?

DUPREE: It's a hugely important district. Obviously, it's right next to Washington, D.C. And, historically, the district has prosecuted many of the nation's highest profile national security cases. It handled the Paul Manafort case. It's handled a lot of the Al-Qaeda cases coming out of 9/11. So, it is a very centrally important office in the whole universe of the United States Department of Justice.

MATTINGLY: Another prosecution that pertains to a former Trump official, but also kind of Trump enemy, not to sugarcoat it on some level, John Bolton. What's going on there?

POLANTZ: It's not a prosecution yet. It's an investigation of John Bolton. He hasn't been charged. This is one that -- it's unclear if we should be lumping this into an investigation that's been heavily influenced by what Donald Trump wants. What we know about this now and what is new is that there have been prosecutors in the district of Maryland, so not Virginia, not D.C., up in Maryland, who have been working on this for some time.

And there was a split with the political leadership at the Justice Department. It wasn't over whether to bring a case up against John Bolton. It was about timing. What they've been looking into is whether he mishandled, classified or national security information. And there was searches of his house where they pulled out documents, hard drives, computers, phones, just two months ago.

So, it was a question of can they charge a case right now? My understanding from sources I was speaking to this weekend is that the Maryland-based team that was working on this case for some time, they lifted objections to moving forward that they had and that they were at work on Saturday potentially preparing an indictment. So, we're waiting to see if Bolton will be charged in the coming days.

MATTINGLY: Katelyn helpfully correcting that it's not a prosecution yet. Sorry, I'm getting a little -- there's been a number that I'm pointing to, but also this is different in terms of what I think prosecutors have been looking at, as you guys have been pointing out in terms of how we view the lens of is this a politically motivated case, is this a Trump case? What's your read on?

DUPREE: Well, my read on it is I want to see what the indictment says if it comes, and I also want to know if the career prosecutors ultimately got comfortable with it and signed off on it. If it does, I think that would make this different potentially than the other two prosecutions we've seen, where there was clearly a divergence between the views of the career prosecutors and the views of the political- employed plaintiffs (ph).

So, let's see what they say. Let's see if this is something where career prosecutors sign off on this, sign their name on the indictment and prosecute the case.

POLANTZ: But also, how did they do it? There was also a discussion recently in the Justice Department of whether John Bolton should be, quote/unquote, perp-walked. That is a political choice.

MATTINGLY: You just always -- they can't help themselves. They're always going to just say the quiet part out loud at some point. I appreciate you guys. I feel like I'm like a string trying to put piece everything together and you guys actually did it for me. I appreciate it guys. Thank you.

As the government shutdown drags, on federal workers, they're trying to figure out how to survive on partial paychecks. The latest on how this will impact members of the U.S. military, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We're barreling toward one of the longest shutdowns in American history unless Democrats drop their partisan demands and pass a clean, no strings attached budget to reopen the government and pay our federal workers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That was House Speaker Mike Johnson warning this morning on day 13 of the government shut down. For the first time in recent history, U.S. military troops are expected to miss their first paycheck potentially. But on Saturday, President Trump said his administration had, quote, identified funds to get troops paid.

Shermichael Singleton and Chuck Rocha are back with me now. Shermichael stepping in to pay for the salaries of troops, to pay the paychecks of troops, not going to hear a lot of complaints on Capitol Hill about that idea politically. Where do you think things stand right now in terms of the levers of pressure that Republicans have?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, look, I think Democrats, in my opinion, I understand their positioning on healthcare. I personally do not agree with it. I think some of the enhancements that were passed during the COVID pandemic were supposed to be temporary. It made sense to me at the time why we wanted to make sure that we had the necessary funding to provide care for people during a once in a lifetime pandemic, but the expectation, at least from the Republican side, was that those things would zero themselves out. Well, you know, Phil, you give people something in politics, it's hard as hell to take it back.

So, here we are with a clean C.R. Hell, even The New York Times said for the first time in a long time, this is actually a legitimately clean C.R. This is expenses that we've already voted on, what, 13, 12 times in the past? Why try to oppose Republicans wanting to open the government? And then let's negotiate. We have until the end of December. This is a complicated process. Keeping government closed may bring this all the way to November. Your side shouldn't want that, Chuck.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, we'll see what my side will want. What we want right now is we want our side fighting back. And I think Chuck Schumer learned that the first time that he didn't do it. [18:45:03]

And so, you see that coalescing with what you saw with the DOGE cuts with an election in Virginia in just 20 days.

Will this have repercussions a year and a half from now in the midterms? No, we're going to get it back open. Folks are going to get their back pay. But right now, there's an election in northern Virginia, and there's a lot of government workers who lost their job because of DOGE that are mad. And I think it's real.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITCAL COMMENTATOR: But you know what? There are also a lot of contractors who do not get back pay. And so Chuck Schumer is playing politics right now because Democrats beat the hell out of him, because the last time they felt that he didn't stand up because he voted with Republicans to open the government, because the expectation from the average American person out there is that the government should function and operate as it should by being open, not closed.

MATTINGLY: Speaking of playing politics, watch this video real quick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It is TSA's top priority to make sure that you have the most pleasant and efficient airport experience as possible while we keep you safe. However, Democrats in Congress refuse to fund the federal government and because of this, many of our operations are impacted and most of our TSA employees are working without pay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROCHA: Let me say that --

MATTINGLY: Just for context, that's being played in airports, some airports have refused to actually show that that's a video. Like while you're sitting in security. That video is kind of hanging out there.

ROCHA: For folks watching, you can't use federal dollars to do any kind of politicking. Take it from the political consultant. We do some work for some of the congressional offices who take their government money, your tax dollars, to say this is how you can reach us.

If you want to file a V.A. claim, if you have an immigration case because they want the constituents to know, it's called the franking. Everybody on Capitol Hill knows the franking budget because it's been known to be used to communicate with voters about what's going on in Congress.

But you can't say Democrat or Republican, and you cannot say, vote for a Democrat or because of a Democrat or a Republican. This is highly illegal.

SINGLETON: You know, look, this is a simple PSA notify to notify -- to notify the American people -- ROCHA: A simple campaign.

SINGLETON: To notify the American people that government isn't functioning because of my friends on the Democratic side.

And you look you even think about immigration, for example. There was a story out of Florida that just broke, I believe, either Thursday or Friday of two individuals who are in the country illegally who were planning a terrorist attack against a Jewish synagogue, against a shabbat dinner.

And you know who broke that story? This is a name you don't hear often on CNN project veritas, of all places. And so there are real ramifications, I would argue, Phil, about the federal government not being able to function to keep the American people safe. So again, we shouldn't play politics with this. And Democrats are happy to.

ROCHA: That's apples and oranges.

MATTINGLY: I, of course, franking -- franking, by the way, if youre a congressional quarterly like me --

ROCHA: I saw you light up.

MATTINGLY: -- gold mine for reporters when they come to Capitol Hill.

I do want to ask you, former President Obama went on the "WTF" podcast hosted by Marc Maron. I think he was kind of the bookend of the podcast, and he really ripped into the law firms, universities, businesses that have made deals or conceded to the Trump administration. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to be bullied into saying that we can only, you know, hire people or promote people based on some criteria that's been cooked up by Steve Miller.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And Obama also sympathized with those worried about receiving any backlash, but then said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We're not at the stage where you have to be like Nelson Mandela and being in a 10 by 12 jail cell for 27 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: You make of those comments.

ROCHA: You know, I see the reemergence of Obama. I see Kamala Harris out there doing this. I think that the party, my party needs to turn a page. And I think that there's a lot of things he said, made a lot of sense. And I don't think Obama himself, but the people around Obama have never went away.

And during Obama's presidency, this is something that's never talked about. Democrats lost 985 House seats during those eight years because of the way we were running campaigns, getting away from messaging to working folks. We got to get back to talking to folks who live in rural Ohio and in rural Texas about things that they worry about every day, or we're going to continue to lose.

SINGLETON: Well, Phil, I'll say quickly, I hope Democrats don't listen to my brilliant friend Chuck Rocha here. That said, these are elements of what Democrats ran on when Obama or when Trump ran against Hillary Clinton, when Trump ran against Biden, when Trump ran against Kamala Harris. Authoritarianism, fascism, those messaging points aren't resonating with the American people, in my opinion, because you have continued to see the president, former president, now elected again, be successful over and over and over again, despite those claims, chuck is right. Democrats have to figure out a way to speak to the American people at a base level. They haven't figured that out yet.

ROCHA: They come to homecoming with me in East Texas. I can show them some real people.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTINGLY: I got to say, Shermichael finishes the segment and goes, man, I'm glad they don't listen to --

SINGLETON: Oh, my God.

MATTINGLY: It's a lot simple PSA, get out of here with that.

Shermichael Singleton, Chuck, I appreciate you guys, as always.

Well, her career spans half a century and she's reliving it in -- living it all in a special way. The legendary vocalist and songwriter Annie Lennox joins THE LEAD, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:54:01]

MATTINGLY: In our pop culture lead, her music and song titles are iconic, "Sweet Dreams", "Here Comes the Rain Again", of course, "Walking on Broken Glass".

Now, superstar Annie Lennox has written an iconic book called "Retrospective". It's filled with personal reflections and incredible photos from her life as a Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter.

Jake Tapper got to ask her all about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Annie Lennox joins us now.

Thank you so much for joining us. This is such a cool book. I can't wait to put this on literally on my

coffee table. And it has such a unique feel to it. When you read and turn the pages, it's -- I wouldn't say it's like a scrapbook, but it's very -- it feels very personal. Tell me what -- tell me what your vision was.

ANNIE LENNOX, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Well, you know, Jake, as you say, I've been around for many decades now. There was such, such a lot of work that went into everything that Dave and I did as eurythmics and within my own solo career, and I'm 70 now, and I thought, it's the time to collect and collate all the beautiful images from these times.

[18:55:09]

And I, you know, we've got a lot of images in the cloud actually a holding space and we kind of pulled them down and selected. I think there are about 200 images in the book, and it was just a labor of love, I have to say, because it gave me a time to reflect. And I titled the book retrospective, which it truly is, and I think a lot of people will find that they can identify moments in their lives when they were listening to the kind of music that we were making, you know, and have made and keep making, you know.

TAPPER: It definitely brought me back. I mean, as somebody who's been following your career since -- I don't know about the '70s, but the '80s for sure. You said in an interview that you often read books from back to front. This is -- this is one of those books you can do that.

LENNOX: You can do it.

TAPPER: I mean, but also you can just pop in at any moment. It's, you know, it's not a narrative that you have to, like, stick page to page. Did -- did -- are there any of these images or any of these moments that when you look at them, they conjure an image beyond -- well, tell me. I mean, do any of them make you sad? Do any of them make you melancholy?

LENNOX: Well, they certainly reflect and represent moments and time in my own life. And there were many, many moments of being melancholic and sad. But there were also these frozen moments are, in a way, how could I say, a celebration --

TAPPER: Yeah.

LENNOX: -- of the work and the creativity and the manifestation of a vision as a creative artist? I see this book as a memoranda of a life through a -- the life of a performing artist on stage, in video, in photograph. And it's given me a time to reflect on what we were actually doing because we were on a roll of -- for decades.

You know, Dave and I were creating nonstop right from the get go as soon as we met each other and we never stopped, really. And now its beautiful because I think I've got the book here. Ta-da!

TAPPER: Yeah.

LENNOX: You know, this is me -- this is me now, and this is old me, but this is old me holding young me.

TAPPER: Well, you look the same, honestly. You look the same. I am so, curious about the creative process. Like, I just don't. I can't imagine coming up with, for example, "Sweet Dreams" or "Broken Glass" or "Here Comes the Rain Again".

You wrote -- you wrote that David Stewart, your partner in the duo and the eurythmics, struck a compelling beat. I became intrigued and "Sweet Dreams" was born. How does that even happen?

LENNOX: Well, how does conversation happen? When you sit with another person like, we are sitting, were not together, but were having a conversation. How did we even form the words and the sentences to make any sense between each other?

So I would say I've figured out after reading for over the years that creative people are more or less right-brained, and that were wired slightly differently, to the more logical part of the brain, which is on the other side. Our thoughts, we capture and we are curious about the world. So, the world presents itself in many ways, and we reinterpret it through poetry, through writing, through making films, through painting, through making music.

And it's in a way, it's an artistic release for creative people to express what's going on in our minds, because there's a lot going on in there.

TAPPER: Do you know what I think? Actually, I think it's a miracle. I think that people like you are touched by God. And I think, like, I think like "Here Comes the Rain Again". I mean, I could, you know, any number of these songs, but "Sweet Dreams", I mean, it's -- it's genius. It's not just like me talking right now. Nobody's going to nobody's going to download me talking right now and listen to it 600 times over the next year.

I mean, have you ever thought about that, that maybe it's actually touched from some heavenly or some creature or some something we can't even understand?

LENNOX: I think the whole world is something -- I don't know. I'm just using words now. I'm afraid to use the word god because it has so many connotations. But whatever the life-giving source is in this mysterious universe, on this planet that we exist on for a very, very short time. Yes. I mean, were all part of it. So perhaps it's tuning in to that positive life force, but it's in a conscious mental capacity.

TAPPER: Well, we're so lucky that it touched you and that you shared everything with us. The book is called "Retrospective". Annie Lennox is the artist.

Come back anytime. We're so -- we're so honored to have you.

LENNOX: Thank you so much. It's been a joy.

(END VIDEOTAPE) MATTINGLY: You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN. If you ever missed an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show wherever you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.