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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Ex-Trump National Security Adviser John Bolton Indicted; Rep. Mike Johnson, (R-LA), Is Interviewed About Government Shutdown, Democrats, Obamacare; Speaker Johnson Joins The Lead As Shutdown Drags Into 16th Day; Marine Vet Resigns After 24 Years Because Of Trump; Tonight: NYC Mayoral Candidates Face Off In First Debate. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired October 16, 2025 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
Still introducing Donald Trump at rallies last year and was still on board the team. Whether any of this would be happening today?
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Well, you do think about Eric Adams, for example, who also was facing --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HUNT: -- a very long investigation that --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Serious charges that vanished in the air.
HUNT: -- that did cease. OK. We of course, have been covering throughout our hour the indictment of John Bolton on 18 counts related to the handling of classified information. Our breaking news coverage is going to continue right here on CNN. "The Lead" with Jake Tapper speaking starts right now.
[17:00:34]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN BREAKING news.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. It is a big breaking news day. Just moments ago, a federal grand jury in the state of Maryland indicted Ambassador John Bolton, the man who was President Trump's national security adviser from 2018 to 2019. Sources tell us that Bolton has been under investigation for alleged unlawful handling of classified information.
Sources also say prosecutors claim he shared highly classified information with his wife and daughter over e-mail. And that is indeed what the indictment spells out in detail. This makes Bolton the third high profile political adversary of President Trump to be indicted in just the last 30 days. CNN's Evan Perez, former federal prosecutor Alyse Adamson join us now to discuss this big breaking news.
Evan, Bolton denies doing anything wrong. Lay out the charges for us here. What is the Justice Department alleging that Ambassador Bolton did illegally? EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, according to this indictment, they're charging John Bolton with 18 counts in all. They say they're accusing him of retention of national security information as well as transmission of national security information, eight counts of transmission, 10 counts of retention of classified information. Essentially what the case boils down to this, paragraph eight on page four of this indictment, it says that from April of 2018 to August of 2025, Bolton abused his position as a national security adviser by sharing more than a thousand pages of information about his day to day activities as national security adviser, including information related to national defense that was classified up top secret SCI. And they said that he shared this with two unauthorized individuals who are only identified as individual one and individual two.
We know, Jake, from our own reporting that those two individuals are his wife and his daughter. Now, what investigators have been focusing on is the fact that Bolton used his AOL account to share notes, to share observations, almost like a diary he was keeping during the time that he was serving in office and he was sending these over a very unsecured system. Obviously AOL account is not very secure and that those -- essentially those items were retained that included classified information. We know from our own reporting that the FBI went to the National Security Intelligence agencies and asked them, showed them some of the material that he had in his AOL account, and they verified that some of that information was still considered classified. That is the brunt of this case.
And look, that's what -- that's what makes this case a lot different from some of the ones that we have seen lately in the retribution agenda of the president of the United States. We know that the president, of course, has long been a critic of John Bolton, as John Bolton has been a critic of this president. But there's two things that could be true, right, that Trump wants Bolton to be indicted by, but also that the career professionals at the Justice Department believed that they had a legitimate case that they've been pursuing here for a couple of years, Jake.
TAPPER: Alyse, one of the things that's interesting as I peruse this indictment is the fact that the prosecutors are taking quotes of Bolton's about other public officials allegedly misusing -- mishandling classified information. Those names have been redacted, but it seems in at least one instance, possibly Hillary Clinton, in another instance, possibly Pete Hegseth, what is the purpose of a prosecutor saying, look at the harsh judgments that Bolton has offered on other elected officials allegedly mishandling classified information. How does that serve the prosecution's point?
ALYSE ADAMSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, thanks, Jake. That's a great question. So I think it serves a very important point because what John Bolton knew is critical to this case. These are intent based charges. They have to have the requisite mens rea.
[17:05:00]
The defendant must have known that these documents were indeed classified and that he shouldn't be maintaining or transmitting them. So by his own account, he definitely knew. I mean, just by virtue of his position as National Security Adviser, he was in the best position to know what documents were classified and the proper procedures when it comes to retaining them, turning them in at the end of his service, and definitely not transmitting them. But I think, Jake, to your point to your question, the reason that was included was to just go ahead and really shore up that intent element and say, no, no, look, by the defendant's own words, he was harshly critical of other people, pointed out the importance of maintaining these documents and keeping them the way that they are supposed to be kept. And now look at what we're putting in this indictment, he did not follow his own rules.
So I think it bears on his intent, and I think it would be strong evidence at trial.
TAPPER: And, Evan, just to go back to a different indictment, or not indictment rather, statement about a different public official allegedly mishandling classified information. And that is the Hur report, more than a year ago about then President Joe Biden. They were making the case, Special Counsel Robert Hur, that President Biden had these classified documents because he wanted to write a book about his time in -- as vice president, that's how back -- how far back this case -- that case goes. They seem to be making a similar argument here that John Bolton was using this classified information because he wanted to write a book, not necessarily the previous book that he got in trouble for, because a lot of that information apparently was taken out before publishing, but some other publication.
PEREZ: Right, exactly. And what we -- what we see, certainly, Jake, the reason why the FBI went to his home to do a search warrant was because they had the belief, based on a previous investigation, that he still had some of this -- some of this information stored either at home or in his office, which is here in Washington.
And here's what was going on, back in 2021, Bolton was among a number of former Trump officials and current officials at the time who were hacked by the Iranians, suspected Iranian hackers. And what happened was Bolton's own assistant reached out to the FBI to notify them that they had seen some suspicious activity. Turns out the FBI already knew that Bolton had been hacked. And what they found was, at least according to the information there that has been laid out by the government, that the Iranians had come upon information that they considered, that the U.S. considered was still classified. And that's really what starts off this investigation.
This is again, part of the reason why I think the career officials at the Justice Department both under the Biden administration and then continuing in the current administration viewed this case with some seriousness, right? Because they knew that the Iranians had -- because they had hacked into his AOL account and perhaps some of his other private e-mail accounts had been able to obtain sensitive information, national defense information that they believed they only had been able to obtain because they obtained it from John Bolton's systems, from his own e-mail systems. And that's what's the crux of this case and is the crux of why this investigation has been ongoing. TAPPER: Evan and Alyse, stand by. We are going to continue to cover this big breaking news story. Let's go to CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.
And Kristen, President Trump just reacted to this his indictment of Ambassador John Bolton, the man who was once his national security adviser in the first term and has since become a very prominent Trump critic.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jake. And I do want to quickly piggyback off of something that Evan just said. When you talk to sources inside the Department of Justice, and I'm talking about Trump aligned sources also in the FBI, lawyers around Donald Trump who support the president, they do believe that this is the strongest case, that this doesn't necessarily fall into the same categories that some of the other cases that we've seen brought to a grand jury do. But when it comes to President Trump, it's not about just which case is stronger or not. It is about the fact that President Trump wants to see so many of his political rivals, people who are outspoken critics of him, be punished in some way. So I was actually sitting in the Oval Office for another event when this news came down and I asked the President Trump -- asked the president for his reaction, here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Mr. President, John Bolton was just indicted by a grand jury in Maryland, do you have a reaction to that?
DONALD TRUMP. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I didn't know that. You told me for the first time. But I think he's, you know, a bad person. I think he's a bad guy. Yes, he's a bad guy.
It's too bad. But it's the way it does.
HOLMES: Have you reviewed the case against him?
TRUMP: That's the way it goes, right? That's the way it goes. Well, I what?
[17:10:01]
HOLMES: Have you reviewed the case against him?
TRUMP: No, I haven't. I haven't. But I just think he's a bad person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Now we do know, of course, there he says he hasn't reviewed the case against John Bolton, but he is following all of this incredibly closely, including these other indictments that we have seen in the past several weeks. So the idea that he maybe hasn't reviewed the case with the Department of Justice is certainly he says he has not. But we do know that he has been following along very closely. He had been asking people around him where status of the Bolton case was and he was watching closely when Bolton's house and office got searched by the FBI.
TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes at the White House for us, thank you so much.
Much more on this indictment coming up. I want to talk more about how the Justice Department is handling this case and so many others involving perceived political opponents of President Trump's. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back with more of our big breaking news in our law and justice lead. President Trump's former National Security Advisor from his first term was today indicted by a federal grand jury in Bethesda, Maryland. Mr. Bolton facing eight counts of transmission of national defense information and 10 counts of retention of national defense information. Let's discuss this all with the former deputy director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, as well as retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.
[17:15:16]
Andy, sources told CNN prosecutors that Bolton shared this highly classified information with his wife and his daughter over e-mail. In the indictment, it's just referred to as person one and person two who are related to him, but we've been told it's his wife and daughter. You held a leadership role in the FBI. You know how serious classified information is regarded, although there are also over classification issues in the government. What's your reaction to the indictment?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, Jake, so the indictment is very serious and it stands out to me from the recent investigations that we have seen of the -- of the mis -- you know, poor storage, unauthorized storage of classified information, most notably the investigation of Vice President Pence and the investigation of Vice President Biden. In both of those cases, what prosecutors lacked was any indication, any evidence of intent to hold that material in an unauthorized place. And there's a lot of circumstances that support those findings.
In this case, the opposite seems to be true. At least the allegations are that Mr. Bolton was frequently taking essentially his summaries of his day's work, much of which was classified material, and he -- from his position was certainly in a position to know that that -- the substance of that material was classified and sending it to person one and person two over unauthorized systems, open e-mail systems like AOL and Google, things like that. So that allegation alone imparts a great deal of intent. It's going to be hard for Mr. Bolton to argue that those transmissions were inadvertent or that he didn't know that he was mishandling classified or national defense information. So that alone elevates the seriousness of this case and the strength of the prosecution far beyond anything we've seen recently in the -- in the instances of Vice President Pence and President Biden.
TAPPER: Colonel Leighton, let's talk about that, because as Andy McCabe notes, a lot of the allegations here have to do with like diary like memos that John Bolton wrote about his day to his wife and daughter, allegedly. And explain to our viewers and listeners how would that be against the law, given that he's not sharing actually actual documents, but allegedly diary entries that might include contemporaneous notations about classified information that he had learned allegedly.
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Right. Yes. If that's true, Jake, it does present a serious problem because really what's classified is the information. You know, it's nice to have a document that has secret or top secret stamped all over it, then it's obvious that the information is classified. But if you're sending notes, let's say you take notes in a meeting or you're doing something like summarizing meeting and then sending it off, you know, to someone in an e-mail or yourself in an e-mail that's still classified.
And it's fine if you're using the systems that are cleared for that type of transmission, but it's not fine if you're using a regular unclassified system or a commercial system like AOL or something similar to that. I remember when I first became an intelligence officer, the instructors would say, do not keep a diary. That was rule number one for us. We never kept diaries. There was a lot of things that, you know, happened in our, you know, during our particular work that would have been interesting to make note of, but we never did that because there was a fear of putting classified information, even inadvertently into something like a diary.
So that would have been an instruction that may have been useful for someone like Mr. Bolton.
TAPPER: And let me read from this indictment, Andy McCabe, if I could, it says from on or about April 9, 2018 through at least on or about August 22, 2025, so honestly, just a few weeks ago, Bolton abused his position as national security adviser by sharing more than 1,000 pages of information about his day to day activities as the national security adviser, including information relating to the national defense, which was classified up to the top secret SCI level with his wife and daughter. So even if he only had the information or these diary entries, diary like entries from 2018 to 2019, the fact that he continued to share this, again, allegedly, these are just charges, nothing has been proven in a court of law, but all the way through August of this year, that's still a crime even that -- if he hadn't been in the government and he's been sharing these documents with his wife and daughter all along?
[17:20:13]
MCCABE: It is essentially -- Jake, it's continuing the same unauthorized, allegedly criminal activity. There's a couple of things to note here that I think are particularly maybe troublesome for Mr. Bolton. And the first is that as the indictment lays out, he actually was the subject or the victim of a hack by what is presumed to be Iranian actors in, I think, July of 2021, his folks, his staff, whoever reported this to the government. And when they reported it, they never alerted the government to the fact that these systems that were hacked by the Iranians actually contained this material that is now, again, allegedly national defense information, some of which is at a very highly classified level. So it's -- you know, those sorts of details in the indictment really point to the potentially the damage that was done here.
This is exactly why you don't store things on unauthorized systems. You know, transmit important national defense information over unauthorized systems because you as a -- or I should say, Mr. Bolton, as the -- as a former national security official, is always a target of hostile nation espionage activity. And it appears that if you believe the government here, their allegation is that his unauthorized possession of this material, of this information actually may have led to tangible harm to U.S. national security. So, again, very serious allegations not proved yet. There are many defenses that Mr. Bolton, I'm sure will raise in the course of this prosecution, but a very serious case nonetheless.
TAPPER: All right, former FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe, retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton, thanks to both of you for your insights. Really appreciate it.
We have much more breaking news to discuss. The speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, is going to come up and talk about the government shutdown on day 16 of the shutdown. I'm going to get his response to something that Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said about him and House Republicans twiddling their thumbs instead of trying to negotiate an end to this stalemate. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:26:35]
TAPPER: Twenty pounds of news and a five pound bag. We have breaking news in our politics lead here on day 16 of the government shutdown. We now know that the shutdown, the federal government shutdown, is going to extend at least into next week as the House remains out of session and Senators are now leaving town with no further votes expected until Monday at the soonest. Many political analysts frankly do not see right now an end in sight. They say both parties seem to believe that they're winning the political argument and the incentive structures right now do not seem to be for compromise, but rather conflict.
Earlier today, Democrats in the Senate voted against advancing the Republican funding bill. This was the 10th time they did so as the divide deepens over health care related demands for -- remember for Democrats, the biggest issue at the core here of the standoff of the shutdown is the Obamacare subsidies which are set to expire in December, making insurance premiums skyrocket for millions of Americans. Democrats argue that any government funding agreement needs to include some health care policy riders to prevent the subsidies from expiring. Republicans on the other hand, say this is a clean government funding bill, vote to pass it, then we can talk about any other issue. Last night, however, Senate Majority Leader John Thune, Republican of South Dakota took told MSNBC that he has privately told Senate Democratic leaders that if they need a commitment to a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies in exchange for their votes to reopen the government while he is willing, he said, to make that deal. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I've said if you need a vote, we can -- we can guarantee you get a vote by a date certain. At some point, Democrats have to take yes for answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: And joining us now to discuss the government shutdown and much more, the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, Republican of Louisiana. Thank you so much for joining us, Mr. Speaker.
So you heard your Senate counterpart there offering Senate Democrats a promise of a vote by a date certain on extending the Obamacare subsidies. Are you willing to offer the same in the House of Representatives?
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Yes. I mean, we've always been prepared to have a vote on that. It's something that was going to be discussed and debated deliberately throughout October, November. Remembering that this is an end of the year issue. The subsidy doesn't expire until December 31st. And as I've also explained, Jake, I mean, we have 535 members in the House and Senate and there are a myriad number of ideas on reforms that would be necessary to actually have that passed into law and extended.
We need all this time to negotiate that. But yes, I mean, that has always been the intention. And Leader Thune and I meet almost every other day, at least touch gloves and make sure we're on the same page. He has bending over backwards to offer to Schumer and the Democrats everything possible to get the government open again. But they've now voted to 10 times to keep it shut down.
And real harm is being felt by real American people. By the way, that overture by Leader Thune was turned down by Chuck Schumer. He wants a guaranteed outcome of that vote. And that's not something we can deliver today because we haven't had all that deliberation yet.
TAPPER: There's not a lot of trust between Democrats and Republicans on the Hill right now. I want you to listen to what Senator Bernie Sanders said on our CNN town hall last night about talk of health care negotiations. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): They've refused to negotiate and anyone thinks that tomorrow they'll suddenly start negotiating I think is smoking what is illegal in many states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[17:30:02]
TAPPER: It sounds as though Leader Thune is negotiating behind the scenes to assure Democrats the negotiations are real. Are you talking at all to your Democratic counterparts? Are you doing any negotiating? JOHNSON: There have been constant negotiations going on, both inside the individual parties and across the chambers and -- and -- and across the aisle. I don't know what Bernie Sanders is talking about. So much of what he said or what I've heard he said at -- at his town hall last night is incorrect, inaccurate. I think he knows that. He's been around here a long time.
But, look, this has, as I mentioned, the -- the Obamacare subsidy was an issue that was always going to have to be resolved by way of consensus and -- and thoughtful deliberation and discussion. There has been a lot of that on this subject. There is currently and there will be going forward.
That has nothing to do with the short-term stopgap funding measure of the continuing resolution. Bernie Sanders knows that. Chuck Schumer knows that. Everybody knows that. They -- they -- we were -- this is not a health care fight. This is a fight about keeping the lights on.
This is a short-term funding fight, seven weeks, simple measure to allow us to continue all this work. And, ironically, they are the ones that are trying to stop that.
TAPPER: Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia has broken with your party, saying she's disgusted that these Obamacare subsidies are going to -- are going to expire and that health insurance premiums could double. She says that Republican leaders have not given a plan to help the millions of Americans to deal with this. Do you have a plan?
JOHNSON: Marjorie's frustrated because we're all frustrated. I had a thoughtful conversation with her on the phone right after she said that, I think the next evening. She's a friend and a colleague, and I explained to her all the deliberation and all the discussion that's been going on. Marjorie doesn't serve on the committees of jurisdiction, where that's their specialty and their main area of interest.
And I invited her to join the -- the conversation and come into the room when all those deliberations are being had. So, look, there is a lot of frustration around here right now because we know that the American people are suffering. They're struggling right now. Paychecks are being withheld. Services are not being provided.
I mean, real -- real harm to real people because Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate are playing a game. I am very hopeful, Jake, that at least five Senate Democrats will come to their senses and do the right thing. We must have 60 votes to break the impasse in the Senate.
We sent over a totally clean C.R. And I can't emphasize this enough, we did not put any Republican partisan priorities on that bill when we sent it over from the House. It's exactly what Chuck Schumer voted on last March, and it's the exact same thing they've done their entire careers and gave impassioned speeches that we -- we should do because they said, and Chuck Schumer said himself as recently as March of this year, it would be terribly irresponsible and dangerous to shut the government down because of all the -- the people who are harmed in that process.
I don't know what's happened except that politics has gotten in the way, and he's afraid that he's going to have a challenge from AOC or one of the other Marxist Democrats, and then he's going to lose his Senate seat. That's the only way to explain his about face.
TAPPER: So speaking of AOC, last night at CNN's town hall, she criticized you for closing down the House of Representatives during this period where negotiating -- negotiation is needed, and the Senate's in session. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): They need to pick up a phone, Kaitlan. I've never seen people who hate working so much in my life. I mean, genuinely, they won't even pick up the phone. If I were Mike Johnson, you should be in that office negotiating with Hakeem Jeffries every damn day until we reopen this government, and any day that you don't do that is a failure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Your response, sir?
JOHNSON: Yes. Instead of doing publicity stunts like AOC likes to do, instead of making social media videos, Republicans are working. We have been working. Right now they're in their districts doing very valuable work. In our press conference this morning, I highlighted some of the very important things they're doing right now.
What are they doing? They're trying to help their constituents navigate through this crisis that has been created like -- by Democrats like AOC. She voted in -- on September 19th in the House to block the -- the pay for troops, TSA agents, Border Patrol agents, air traffic controllers, to stop the services to nutrition supplemental programs to women, infants, and children.
She voted to stop service to -- to the elderly and disabled and veterans. That's her vote record. And she's trying to obscure that fact and blame Republicans. I am always open to negotiating. But we had the negotiations in the House. And the mutual agreement by Republicans and Democrats who were appropriators, who were working on the government funding, was to extend it for seven weeks to November 21st so they would have time to finish the appropriations process.
AOC engaged in a political stunt, as did Hakeem Jeffries, and voted against it for their own partisan political purposes, and they have created this mess. So it doesn't matter how many hours you give her in a town hall, the first ever socialist town hall on CNN. I'm glad it was aired. You got to hear their real views, and it's pretty dangerous for the future of America.
TAPPER: The director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russ Vought, is taking the shutdown opportunity to fire, for good, federal workers. Not just to furlough, but to -- to fire them. Multiple Republican lawmakers tell CNN that they're only finding out about the administration decisions on layoffs and contract cancellations after they've already been made public.
[17:35:13]
Congressman Mark Amodei says he found out that $202 million worth of battery recycling projects were being canceled in his Nevada district via press release. He said, "the communications culture sucks." Do you think the Trump administration is giving you, the legislative branch, these details sufficiently? And if so, are -- are you passing all this information along to your members?
JOHNSON: Look, the Trump administration is doing the very best they can with a very difficult situation. It is the Democrats who have voted now ten times to keep the government shut down and -- and require all of these reductions in force and -- and the -- the determination about what are essential programs, policies, and personnel, and what are not. This is an unenviable situation that no one in the White House relishes.
The President asked Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer himself in the Oval Office, in my presence, and with Leader Thune, to please not shut the government down. Before any of this began, we never had to go down this road. But now that the Democrats keep deciding to keep the government shutdown, they are forcing the administration to triage federal spending.
Why? Because they have turned off the funding stream, Jake. That is what's happened. They can make this stop immediately if they will just do the simple and right thing, pass our simple 24-page bill that just merely says, status quo, keep the lights on. Democrats refuse to do it. They are the ones that are inflicting this pain on the people.
TAPPER: That's not really quite accurate. I mean, Russ Vought is taking this opportunity to fire workers because they want to reduce the size of the federal workforce. None of these people are being paid anyway. It's not as though that these -- these furloughed workers are sapping up budget. They're not being paid. This is an opportunity by Russ Vought to shrink government, as he has outlined in -- in Project 2025 and other places.
JOHNSON: No, look, this is a very important distinction. Furloughed workers do get paid on the back end. They -- they get that pay back to them. It's reimbursed, as you know. That's how it works. That's the statute and the -- and the tradition and the practice. Russ Vought does want to reduce the size and scope of government, as does every common-sense American, because the federal government is too big, it does too many things, and it does almost nothing well.
As Reagan said, government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem. We want to reform it. But this is a very important point, Jake. Russ Vought doesn't want to go about it this way, nor does President Trump, nor does any Republican in Congress. We want to do it through the regular order, the regular process of the Congress, to do this in a deliberate fashion.
We don't want federal employees or federal workers to be given a hardship. We've got some of the most patriotic Americans who serve in these agencies of the government. They provide essential services for the people. But again, it is the Democrats who are putting the Republican administration in the unenviable situation of trying to triage and -- and figure out what are essential and what are not.
That is not the choice of Russ Vought or Donald J. Trump or the Speaker or the leader in the Senate. It is the Democrats that are doing this to the American people. Plain and simple. That's the fact. And everybody can check it for themselves.
TAPPER: So you've said that you're not going to swear in newly elected Democratic Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva until the House returns for regular session and the government reopens. And the point of fact, you could, if you wanted to, swear in Grijalva tomorrow. Her election's now been certified.
And you did swear in two members during pro forma sessions because their families were present. Congresswoman-elect Grijalva, her dad's not going to be able to attend the swearing in whenever it happens because he died, as you know. He was a member of Congress.
She was elected to fill his seat. Your -- this move is delaying her constituents having elected representation. It's also denying her a moment for her to be sworn in to fill her late father's role. And look, I know you a little bit. That must bother you. Isn't it time just to swear her in already?
JOHNSON: No, because so much of what you just summarized there is not accurate. Let me tell you what is accurate about it. First of all, I'm following the Pelosi precedent. When my dear friend and colleague from Louisiana, Julia Letlow, was elected under very similar circumstances in 2021, her late husband passed away, died of COVID, and they had a special election to fill the seat, and Julia won it.
Nancy Pelosi took 25 days to administer the oath to Julia. Now, we didn't have press conferences and go banging on doors and make a big thing of it because we understood that is the regular process and tradition of the House. I am doing exactly the same thing. I have said a thousand times in response to this, I am happy and anxious to administer the oath to Rep. Grijalva, and we will do that as soon as we return to legislative session.
We need Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate to do that. It is ironic that the two Senators from Arizona who are making noise about this are voting to keep the government shutdown. If they want Rep. Grijalva to take the oath, they can vote. That's Mark Kelly and Gallegos. They can vote to do this.
Let me say this right now, though, Jake. Rep. Grijalva is, she should be working for her constituents. I don't know what she's doing. I keep seeing their political stunt videos, and they're knocking on the door and she's not there. She should be in her office. She should be working or in the district for her constituents.
[17:40:12]
She's already hired 16 staffers. She should be taking constituent calls. She should be directing and helping them navigate the crisis that her colleagues here have created for her constituents. We're happy to administer the oath. We're going to do it as soon as we get back, but we've got to get the lights on first.
We've got to make sure that our troops are being paid and our Border Patrol agents down in Arizona are being paid before we go through the ceremony of administering this oath.
TAPPER: Before you go, Mr. Speaker, do you have any prediction when this government shutdown is going to be -- be over?
JOHNSON: I wish I could tell you. People ask me that every hour of every day. I have no idea. The ball is in the court of -- of -- of five Senate Democrats, 44 of them have voted 10 times to shut the government down. We need five common sense Democrats to come to their senses and stop inflicting this pain on the American people so we can all get back to the business here of running the government.
I -- I -- it is beyond me why they're doing this. It's purely for partisan political purposes. There's no other way to see it. And we've got a lot of work to do here, and I pray they end it soon, Jake.
TAPPER: House Speaker Mike Johnson, thank you so much, sir. Appreciate your time.
JOHNSON: Thanks so much.
TAPPER: My next guest is a U.S. Marine Colonel who left the military, he says, because of President Trump, saying he could no longer swear to follow a commander-in-chief who, to him, seems so willing to disregard the U.S. Constitution. He's going to join me ahead.
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[17:44:53]
TAPPER: And we have some breaking news for you. The very first reaction statement from John Bolton's attorney. Reacting to the federal indictment against his client on 18 counts related to alleged mishandling of classified documents. Ambassador Bolton's attorney, Abbe Lowell, saying, "The underlying facts in this case were investigated and resolved years ago. These charges stem from portions of Ambassador Bolton's personal diaries over his 45-year career, records that are unclassified, shared only with his immediate family, and known to the FBI as far back as 2021. Like many public officials throughout history, Ambassador Bolton kept diaries. That is not a crime. We look forward to proving once again that Ambassador Bolton did not unlawfully share or store any information." We are also awaiting a statement from Bolton himself. Much more to come on this just ahead.
In our National Lead, a stunning resignation the same day that President Trump gave this ultimatum to senior flag officers in Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: If you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank. There goes your future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: President Trump would go on in that speech at Quantico talking about enemies within the United States and deploying the military to American cities. Coincidentally, now former Colonel Doug Krugman, a U.S. Marine at the time, says he resigned because of President Trump.
He explains why in a brand new "Washington Post" op-ed earlier today. And former Colonel Doug Krugman joins me now. So, Colonel, you -- you actually decided to resign months before that Quantico meeting. What led you to make the decision?
COL. DOUG KRUGMAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): I decided to retire because I not only had policy disagreements with some of what President Trump did in his first term and promised to do in a second term. Policy disagreements are normal. Everyone who serves in the government military accepts that and chooses to serve anyway.
But I also had a lot of moral hesitation about President Trump's actions. And then finally, and has become increasingly clear over the past few months, I also question the legality of his actions and his willingness to actually defend the Constitution. The military officer oath includes the phrase without mental reservation.
And under President Trump, based on my questions about the morality of his actions and very large questions about the legality of some of his actions, I had a lot of reservations about continuing to serve. So the most honorable thing for me to do was request to retire, which I did in late January.
TAPPER: Can you be more specific about what actions you question about in terms of President Trump's morality and legality? Which ones are you specifically referring to?
KRUGMAN: Well, I think the culminating point of his first term was January 6th. And the fact he chose to, on the first day of his second term, exercise his lawful power of the pardon, no one disputes that, to pardon the roughly, I think it was 1,600 Americans who attacked our Capitol that day and tried to stop our Congress from doing its duties.
That, for me, was a fairly large moral line. Prior to that, he selected Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense. Mr. Hegseth at the time made his name in part by advocating for pardons for some men who committed war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm one of several hundred thousand who managed to serve in those wars without committing war crimes.
And the fact that that was one of the strongest points, again, ran into my morals and my idea of what's right and wrong. I could give a lot more examples, but I don't think we have that long to talk, so I'll probably stop there.
TAPPER: Secretary Hegseth has said that the actions he's taking, for example, restoring the names of the Confederate generals to forts and military bases, although he is using a loophole to do that, is to make the troops happy, is for military cohesion. But you argue in your op- ed that you think military cohesion is at risk under Trump. Can you explain why?
KRUGMAN: Yes. There's an assumption in the military that when you get orders through your chain of command, that the orders are based on the best information, best facts available, and that the orders are legal. Right now, we have several cases in this country, and I'm not talking about for overseas issues, the Venezuela boats, don't have time to get into that today.
But we have cases in this country where the National Guard is in receipt of orders from the Secretary of Defense, as advocated by the President, that their governors have said they should not follow, and that now federal judges have said are illegal and should not be followed. Every time we have orders issued where, when in this case the judges looked on the facts on the ground and looked on the justification and said the facts on the ground don't match the justification used for these orders, and when we have commanders who receive orders and are immediately told by another lawful authority not to execute them, that undermines morale, it undermines cohesion, and it undermines the strength of our military forces, who are no longer sure what orders they should be following and what they should be doing.
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TAPPER: Former Marine Colonel Doug Krugman, thank you for joining us, sir. Thank you so much, and thank you for your service.
KRUGMAN: Thank you for having me.
TAPPER: This is a big night ahead of Election Day. We're going to soon see the first debate in the race for New York City mayor. The moments that we're going to be looking out for as the candidates face off on stage for their first time, that's next.
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TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, cue the election music. Nice. Nineteen days until Election Day 2025. Tonight is the first of two debates in the race for New York City Mayor featuring three controversial candidates. There is the Democratic front -- frontrunner, Democrat Socialist Zohran Mamdani. There is former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, who resigned in disgrace. He's running as an independent. And there is Republican nominee Curtis Sliwa of the Guardian Angels.
Now, Mamdani might not consider himself anti-Zionist specifically, but he has repeatedly refused to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. And just yesterday, Mamdani dodged questions on whether the terrorist group Hamas should lay down its arms, which is one of the 20 points in President Trump's ceasefire plan between Hamas and Israel. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I believe that any future here in New York City is one that we have to make sure that's affordable for all. And as it pertains to Israel and Palestine, that we have to ensure that there is peace. And that is the future that we have to fight for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you won't say that Hamas should lay down their arms and give up leadership in Gaza?
MAMDANI: I don't really have opinions about the future of Hamas and Israel beyond the question of justice and safety and the fact that anything has to abide by international law. And that applies to Hamas, that applies to the Israeli military, applies to anyone you could ask me about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: A reminder that Hamas is considered a terrorist group by the United States government. Then, of course, there is the former Democratic Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo. He's running in this race as an independent. As you all no doubt remember, he resigned as governor in 2021 over many sexual harassment allegations and other questions about his behavior as governor.
The Justice Department is currently investigating him over accusations that he lied to Congress in 2024 about his handling of the COVID pandemic and nursing home deaths, relatedly. Cuomo largely blamed President Trump for that.
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ANDREW CUOMO, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: His lies and denials delayed our response, let the virus spread, and this country never caught up. Trump literally said I take no responsibility and he fabricated political attacks blaming Democratic governors.
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TAPPER: Let's discuss with former CNN senior political analyst, John Avalon, who ran for Congress on Long Island. So he's not specifically a New Yorker in terms of New York City, but good enough for us today. And obviously, former Congressman Jamaal Bowman is a New Yorker and a Democrat. Jamaal, you have endorsed Mamdani, who went on "Fox" yesterday, a day before the first debate, an interesting strategy to go on "Fox." What did you think about his answer on Hamas?
JAMAAL BOWMAN, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (D-NY): New York City residents are focused much more on making New York City affordable. They're focused on fast and free busing. They're focused on freezing the rent, universal childcare, all of the issues that Mr. Mamdani ran on during the primary. And so that is what we are holding him accountable for here.
He is going to be the mayor of New York City. He is not running for Congress. He is not running for the Senate. He's running to be mayor right here. And the people are excited about it. As you see, he continues to be up double digits in every poll. He run -- won the primary by double digits.
People are outside, 70,000 volunteers knocking on doors. We're making calls. We're doing the work. And so that's the work we're going to focus on. We're going to focus on New York City. We're going to focus on making New York City affordable, building the best school system in the country. That's the focus. That's the charge. That's what he's going to be held accountable for.
TAPPER: So, John, I don't know if that answer is going to be good enough for Jews in New York. New York obviously has a very sizable Jewish population. And I know there are Jews supporting Mamdani. But there are others that are more skeptical of him because he is very active in terms of talking about Palestine. And he does not recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.
But still, he is far and above the frontrunner. What do you expect Cuomo and Sliwa are going to say tonight to try to score some points? And do you think it will work?
JOHN AVLON, FORMER CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, I -- I think Cuomo's core tactic is to try to get beneath the very exuberant personality of Zorhan Mamdani and to press him on his policies, which are decidedly to the left of even most New York Democrats.
I think the other key argument is to make the case that he's the most experienced person running for mayor of New York, running against the least experienced person, someone who has never run anything from an executive standpoint and has never had a job.
That said, Cuomo's got baggage. And Mamdani does have momentum. And the issue of affordability is key. But I think it's making sure that you can -- you can -- the happy warrior, which is real, and -- and a very charismatic, skilled communicator, to press him on the policies, to press him on the experience, because that's the actual job of being mayor.
TAPPER: I mean, he doesn't just have baggage. He has baggage like an American tourist or warehouse has baggage. Jamaal, in last night's CNN town hall, Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez took issue with the fact that so many of the Democratic leaders, including the Senate leader, Chuck Schumer, who's from New York, and the House leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who's from New York, for not endorsing Mamdani, who is the Democratic nominee. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: He's the Democratic nominee. How do you not support the Democratic guy? But more importantly --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Who else are we going to support?
SANDERS: He's a great candidate. This should be the model.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I do worry about the example it sets when our leaders do not support the party nominee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Why do you think Schumer and Jeffries haven't endorsed Mamdani? And -- and is that hurting him at all, do you think?
BOWMAN: So, first of all, it's extremely frustrating. As a Democrat, as one of the younger Democrats across the country, it's very frustrating that the endorsement hasn't happened yet. I don't know why you have to ask them, serving in Congress for four years, I have a feeling special interests have something to do with this.
Hopefully, they come around. But it's very frustrating because Democrats in Congress have a, what is it, a 25 percent approval rating. Congress overall has a 20 percent -- 20-something percent approval rating. The people do not trust our elected officials. The people are not excited about our democracy. Zohran is exciting. AOC is exciting. Bernie is exciting.
AVLON: Yes. I -- I -- Jake, I think the difference is this is an executive position, right? It's not a legislative position. And people have a right to vote their conscience about the policy and the person, not just the party. And elections shouldn't just be decided in closed partisan primaries. We'll see who wins tonight. We'll see who wins the fall. Then every New Yorker should hope that mayor succeeds.
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But I think it's -- it's -- people have a right to question whether they support someone regardless if they're the party nominee, if they're not in line with their principles and their policies.
TAPPER: John Avlon and former Congressman Jamaal Bowman, thanks to both you. Really appreciate it.
BOWMAN: Thank you.
