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The Lead with Jake Tapper

New Release: Epstein Mentioned Trump Multiple Times In E-mails; Venezuela Touts "Massive" Military Mobilization Amid U.S. Buildup; Trump Repeatedly Dismisses Concerns About Affordability; Soon: House To Vote On Ending Record-Long Government Shutdown. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 12, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Thanks very much to you all at home for watching, for joining us here in The Arena today. Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead."

Hi, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. Thanks so much. We'll see you in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: Sounds great.

[17:00:20]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We have two major breaking news stories, both in our politics lead. First, at any moment, we're going to see the initial votes on the floor of the House of Representatives, setting the stage for the end of the longest government shutdown in U.S. history, 43 days as of today. House Speaker Mike Johnson has spent the day selling this government funding bill to his razor thin majority.

He says he believes he has the votes to pass it. But House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, the Democrat of New York, has railed against the bill, urging all his members, all the Democrats to vote against it because he says it does not guarantee extensions for subsidies of Obamacare premiums which are going to expire at the end of the year. And those premiums are about to get way more expensive for Americans.

And while we wait for these votes to take place on the floor of the House, we're also watching huge developments on another matter. The release of thousands of files related to dead pedophile and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. This morning began with a bombshell. House Oversight Committee Democrats releasing three e-mails obtained from Epstein's estate by subpoena, all of them mentioning Trump. In one 2011 e-mail, Epstein describes Trump as the dog that hasn't barked. He writes that someone whom Democrats redacted from the document, though they identified her as an Epstein victim, quote, "spent hours at my house with him," meaning Trump. Now, Republicans say this person who is redacted is prominent Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre, who once testified that she never saw Trump participate in anything inappropriate. And Republicans are charging that the redaction was an attempt by Democrats to insinuate something that isn't there. Democrats said they will always redact the identities of Epstein's survivors.

The White House today said these e-mails prove the nothing. And then Republicans on the Oversight Committee released not just those three e-mails, but 20,000 pages of documents from Epstein's estate. CNN is going through those. One exchange includes some e-mails sent in the middle of the night between Epstein and Trump adviser Steve Bannon talking about how Epstein was the connective tissue between Trump and disgraced now former Prince Andrew. We'll have more on that later.

Ever since these documents saw the light of day, we have seen stunning developments when it comes to that discharge petition that aims to get a full House vote on forcing the Justice Department to release the Epstein files. This petition, brought by Republican Congressman Thomas Massie and Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, has been just one signature away. You need 218 signatures from succeeding since September 19th, when the House went out of session because of the shutdown. So with the House back in session, the final 218th signature finally came today from the brand new member of Congress, Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva, a Democrat who was just sworn in hours ago. But throughout this afternoon, the Trump administration and President Trump appeared to be in something of a full court press to try and stop the discharge petition from working.

Sources are telling CNN that top Trump administration officials held a meeting on this issue, not just at the White House, but in the Situation Room. According to multiple sources, the meeting was said to have included the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, the deputy attorney General Todd Blanche, FBI Director Kash Patel, and Republican Congresswoman Lauren Boebert of Colorado. Boebert is one of the four Republican members of the House who has signed the petition. Neither Boebert nor any other members of Congress have yet to remove their name from the petition before it got that final 218th signature. But if they had, and if Boebert removes her name or Nancy Mace or Marjorie Taylor Greene or Tom Massey, if any of them remove their signature, the petition will fail.

White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt today, asked about the meeting with Boebert, said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Doesn't it show transparency that members of the Trump administration are willing to brief members of Congress whenever they please?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Yes, it does show transparency, in the sense that President Trump is now transparently trying to stop any Republican and scolding any Republican who thinks that the Epstein files should be released. President Trump on Truth Social said, quote, "The Democrats are trying to bring up the Jeffrey Epstein hoax again because they'll do anything at all to deflect on how badly they've done in the shutdown. Only a very bad or stupid Republican would fall into that trap. There should be no deflections to Epstein or anything else," unquote.

[17:05:25]

Once again, just a fact check of that statement, the Epstein files is not a hoax. And until President Trump took office, it was an issue that Republicans rallied about. And all of this makes us ask the question, what is in those files? Why is President Trump and so many members of his team working so hard to prevent you from seeing what's in these files?

We're going to have much more on the Epstein files latest just ahead. But first, let's go back to the end of the government shutdown. CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.

Manu, tell us how this voting process is going to play out over the next minutes and hours. Do Republicans definitively have the votes to reopen the government?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does appear that they have the votes to reopen the government, Jake, but we do expect this to be a pretty close vote because of the opposition from Democrats. So just to walk through the process here in this hour, there will be the first procedural vote. That's a vote, what's known as the rule. It sets the parameters for the floor debate. It actually allows for the bill to be approved by a straight, by a simple majority in the United States House.

The rule is expected to be approved here. And then around in the 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour into the 8:00 p.m. Eastern hour, that will be the vote on final passage of this bill and the bill we are expecting it to be supported by mostly, if not all but one Republican. One Republican, Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky just told me moments ago that he wouldn't say exactly how he'd vote, but he said this bill has gotten worse compared to the last bill he voted against. So a sign that he is a no. And Mike Johnson can only afford to lose two Republican votes along straight party lines.

There are signs that there are Democrats who could vote for this bill. Watch Congressman Jared Golden of Maine, a moderate Democrat, someone who has voted -- who voted for the last Republican spending bill. He was the only Democrat to do so. Congressman Don Davis, a North Carolina Democrat, someone from a swing district, I just asked him how he plans to vote, he told me he is still undecided. He says he's talking to his constituents, several other moderate members.

So the Democratic leadership is bracing for the possibility of several Democratic defections, despite the furious opposition from Democratic leaders over this bill because it does not have their chief demand, which is to extend those Obamacare subsidies. People use those subsidies to play -- pay for their health care insurance, they are expiring at year's end. And Democrats have insisted since the beginning that this funding bill must be tied to health care provisions. But because the deal that was cut in the Senate did not have those provisions, Hakeem Jeffries, a Democratic leader, is pressuring his members to fall in line and vote against this and trying to get Republicans to pass it on their votes alone.

But with the consequences of this shutdown now more than 40 days piling up, Americans experiencing terrible travel delays for the people not getting their federal food aid, hundreds of thousands of federal employees out of work not getting their paychecks. The pressure is on too greatly for a handful of Democrats who plan to at least are seriously considering voting for this bill, which shows you, Jake, that this shutdown will finally come to an end tonight. And then the president will sign this into law, kicking the can down the road because it only funds most federal agencies through January 30, setting up a big fight next year on this very same issue, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, we'll be back -- we'll be back here in a few weeks. Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is also on Capitol Hill for us.

And Arlette, we should note that the Senate crammed some new significant and unrelated provisions into this bill before sending it to the House. What are some of the most controversial ones and is the House OK with them?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, House Speaker Mike Johnson is taking a significant move to try to appease some of the concerns from some conservatives about one specific provision in this bill that relates to a provision that would allow U.S. senators to sue the Justice Department or FBI if their information is subpoenaed or if they are investigated without being notified. House Speaker Mike Johnson wrote on X a short while ago, quote, "House Republicans are introducing standalone legislation to repeal this provision that was included by the Senate in the government funding bill. We are putting this legislation on the fast track suspension calendar in the House for next week."

Now this provision was introduced once this bill was negotiated in the Senate. A surprising many members of the House, including House Speaker Mike Johnson, who said he was shocked to see its inclusion. At the heart of this is there some GOP senators who are very frustrated and angry with the fact that their phone records were subpoenaed without their knowledge during a special counsel investigation led by Jack Smith during the Biden administration. So this provision would allow them to seek recourse for this matter. So eventually Speaker Johnson has indicated there will be a standalone vote to try to strip that provision.

[17:10:19]

They can't take that out of the government funding bill right now because then that would start this process all over again and send the funding bill back to the Senate. But Johnson is saying that Republicans will push forward with a standalone vote on that measure going forward. But there's other measures in this government funding bill that were added in in these Senate negotiations. One of those would ban many THC infused products. What this some language relating to the agriculture component of this does, is it criminalize -- recriminalizes hemp derived products across many instances closing a loophole from a 2018 farm bill. Senate Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky was one of those lobbying to close this loophole as he believes that companies were exploiting it to create and sell intoxicating products. His other home state, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, tried to force a vote, an amendment vote to remove this provision, but that did not pass in the Senate.

So far we haven't heard strong objections that could potentially hold things up in the House. But there's a host of other items that have been included in this funding bill that the House will be voting on in just a few hours. That includes restoring food stamp benefits that in continuing them, funding them until the end of September of 2026. They also are reversing those federal worker layoffs that were made during this shutdown and retroactively paying federal workers during the time from the shutdown. And so those are just some of the components in this bill that are being pushed forward as the House is hoping to end the standoff in just a few hours.

TAPPER: It's interesting that Senate Republicans said that if Democrats want to talk about extending these subsidies to help Americans pay for their skyrocketing health care insurance premiums, that they should do so separately, not attached to this clean government funding bill. But then they attach these provisions that allow eight of them to sue the government for being investigated. We don't -- common citizens, we don't get to do that. Not to mention this hemp provision. Interesting.

Arlette Saenz on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Will we see this government shutdown actually end tonight? Well, we're going to keep watching how this House vote plays out. Plus the other big story, of course, the new Jeffrey Epstein e-mails that mention President Trump by name, how the White House and the President are pushing back today on this new Bombshell reporting. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:16:42]

TAPPER: And we're back with our politics lead and those thousands of pages of documents from Jeffrey Epstein's estate that the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed and released much of today, which includes several e-mails that mentioned President Trump by name. These Epstein e-mails span over the last 15 years. One from April 2011 is between Epstein and his associate, convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell. Epstein e-mailed Maxwell, quote, "I want you to realize that dog that that hasn't barked is Trump. Giuffre, Virginia Giuffre spent hours at my house with him.

He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, et cetera. I'm 75 percent there," unquote. And we should note Giuffre, one of Epstein's most high profile victims who took her own life earlier this year, she once testified that she never saw Trump participate in anything inappropriate.

In another e-mail from January 2019, Epstein wrote to author Michael Wolff, apparently to address Trump's claim that he asked Epstein to resign his membership at the president's Mar-a-Lago Club, quote, "Trump said he asked me to resign," Epstein wrote to Wolf, "never a member ever. Of course, he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop," unquote. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House.

Jeff, how is the Trump administration? How is the White House reacting to these e-mails?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, this has certainly set off quite a scramble here at the White House all day long, including an extraordinary meeting in the White House Situation Room, which usually is reserved for a meeting to plan major military events and to learn about national security matters. This was a meeting we are told with the Attorney General Pam Bondi, the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, the FBI Director Kash Patel, and one member of Congress, Lauren Boebert, of course, the Republican of Colorado. She is one of the members of Congress, one of the Republicans who has said for months that she would cross the aisle and vote with Democrats and others to sign a discharge petition, which is effectively the House calling for the Justice Department to release all of the Epstein files. Well, that meeting happened here at this -- at the Situation Room. The White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt, confirmed it.

She said it was an act of transparency that they were trying to brief a member of Congress, Jake. But it seemed to be very unusual. We cannot recall a meeting of this kind. But the congresswoman has recently said within the last couple of hours that she does plan to still support this discharge petition. So it looked like that pressure campaign did not work with her.

But the president, for his part, is simply trying to change the subject and also trying to urge his party to not vote for the release of these files. But he's also conflating it with the shutdown. Here's just a sample of what he's been writing on Truth Social, Jake. He says this, "The Democrats are using the Jeffrey Epstein hoax to try and deflect from their massive failures, in particular the most recent one, the shutdown." Of course, that does little to answer the question of the president's name obviously long before he was president, it was a time when he was a celebrity, back in 2011 or so was in these e- mails so many times.

So that means these questions still remain here tonight. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thanks so much.

Let's look at this through a legal lens now with former Westchester County, New York District Attorney Mimi Rocah.

[17:20:04] Mimi, thanks for being here. What about these e-mails caught your attention the most today?

MIMI ROCAH, FORDHAM LAW ADJUNCT PROFESSOR: Well, Jake, I think these e-mails are really significant. I mean, essentially what we have now are two people, Maxwell and Epstein, in addition to others. But those are the two I'll focus on for a minute who were coconspirators. I mean, that's undeniable. We know that from court proceedings, et cetera.

And they are talking about Donald Trump in a very incriminating way. We don't know exactly yet on its face what it shows us, but they put Trump essentially at the scene of the crime, i.e. Epstein's home, which is where much of the trafficking, much of the sexual abuse occurred. That doesn't mean Trump saw it. That doesn't mean Trump participated in it. There's other information we would need to know the answer to that definitively.

But it does make it all the more likely, in fact, almost, you know, guaranteed, that he knew what Epstein was doing and that he didn't talk about it in ways that he should have with authorities. And that's why you have Epstein calling him the dog that isn't barking or didn't bark yet. A dog that didn't bark yet means a dog that has some bark to give i.e. that is information about Epstein. So these are very reliable on their face. Court rules say that conversations between conspirators like this are considered inherently reliable.

I'm not saying anyone's charging a crime here, I'm just trying to give that as an example of why we would trust these e-mails. These are written during a time when Epstein, Maxwell had no idea that anyone would ever see them, didn't know --

TAPPER: Yes.

ROCAH: -- that anyone was, quote, "listening" and this is what they were saying about Trump.

TAPPER: So earlier this year, Ghislaine Maxwell from prison told the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, who used to be President Trump's personal attorney, told him that she, quote, "never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way," unquote, and that she did not recall ever seeing Trump at Epstein's house. The April 2011 e-mail between Maxwell and Epstein appears to indicate that Trump has been at Epstein's house before, at least according to this e-mail, and that Maxwell knew about that. We know that, you know, Ghislaine Maxwell wants to get out of prison, wants her sentence commuted, wants to be pardoned, what do you think that claim about he's never been to the house, contradicted now by this e-mail, what does that say about the interview that Todd Blanche did with Ghislaine Maxwell?

ROCAH: Yes, this is a really important point. I mean, let's remember that Todd Blanche works for the Department of Justice right now. He was purportedly doing a proffer interview to get information from Maxwell. At a minimum, he didn't press her on anything. And we don't know for sure but it's extremely likely that he knew about these e- mails.

Even if he didn't, he should have asked her directly more pointed questions. He should have pressed her on his answers. He was negligent at best and he was complicit in helping her essentially craft very specific answers. If you look at her answers now, they are contradictory, but she would argue, well, that wasn't exactly the question that was asked, et cetera. That is not an information getting exercise.

This was a give Donald Trump a sort of clear, you know, pass, say that he didn't do anything wrong and then we'll reward you. And we saw that because we saw the reward and we know she's trying to get -- we seem reporting that she's trying to get some kind of pardon or clemency of some form. And if Trump --

TAPPER: Yes.

ROCAH: -- grants that, I actually think it would be the biggest sign that there is something more in addition to these e-mails which are already quite incriminating that she could say about him.

TAPPER: Yes. Mimi Rocah, thanks so much. Appreciate your time and your expertise.

[17:24:28]

While this drama is playing out in Washington, we are also monitoring a military buildup, U.S. military buildup in the Caribbean. And the United States and Venezuela are both making moves there. Both sides are setting the stage. Is it for a new conflict? Some expert opinion next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our world lead, torture, sexual violence and beatings, that's what dozens of Venezuelans deported by the U.S. to a Salvador prison experienced, according to a new report from the group Human Rights Watch. The report includes interviews with 40 of the more than 250 Venezuelans sent to the notorious Terrorism Confinement Center, or CECOT. The Department of Homeland Security defended its decision to send the migrants there. Many of the report's findings match what CNN reported in July. Former detainees told us they were tortured physically and psychologically and shot point blank with rubber bullets.

Also in our world lead, Venezuela has announced a quote, "massive mobilization" of its forces on land, in the air and at sea as the United States largest warship sails into the Caribbean. Here's how Admiral James Stavridis, who oversaw the region once, put it earlier today on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: I think this is the largest concentration of naval force of the United States anywhere in the world right now. Not the Pacific, not the Persian Gulf, not the Mediterranean, it's in U.S. southern Command in the Caribbean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This as the U.S. continue its -- continues its deadly strikes on alleged drug boats in the region, killing 76 people since September.

[17:30:09]

CNN's military analyst, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton joins us now. So Colonel, given the nuclear saber rattling with Russia and the continued threats from China, not to mention what's going on in the Middle East and Ukraine, does it make sense that so much of the United States Navy's firepower is concentrated in the Caribbean right now?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: No it doesn't, Jake, and one of the key aspects of this is that if we move our forces like we've done, it really makes it difficult for us to respond to any crisis that might occur in the Pacific, in the Middle East, in Europe, and that really makes it difficult for us to do our -- do our various military missions. The job that we have basically cut out for ourselves in the area off of Venezuela is one that does not require that amount of military force.

TAPPER: Moments ago the Secretary of State Marco Rubio left a meeting with G7 foreign ministers in Canada. He was -- he was asked about reports that the boat strikes came up during meetings with world leaders. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think that the European Union gets to determine what international law is. They certainly don't get to determine is how the United States defends its national security.

I do find it interesting that all these countries want us to send, you know, and supply, for example, nuclear capable Tomahawk missiles to defend Europe, but when the United States positions aircraft carriers in our hemisphere where we live, somehow that's a problem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: What do you think of the point Secretary Rubio is making there?

LEIGHTON: Well, first of all, international law was actually started by the Europeans, you know, about two hundred or so years ago in modern form, and before that it started a lot earlier than that several centuries ago, but be that as it may, the Europeans have a voice through the U.N., through the European Union, through their respective nations. And they are usually considered to be our trusted allies when it comes to this, and so their advice and counsel should be sought in any of these types of matters.

Doesn't mean we do exactly what they say, but it does mean that we listen to them, and it looks to me like the administration is not listening to them. The other point about the types of military assets that are in there -- in the Western Hemisphere that Secretary Rubio mentioned, again, the preponderance of assets is not -- does not match the job at hand. If we're truly just going after narco-terrorists, we do that through other means, at least have done -- done it that way in the past.

And in many cases it's been fairly effective, but it was never a sustained campaign, and that is the kind of thing that really needs to happen here if you're going to get rid of drug -- drug traffickers and narco-terrorists.

TAPPER: Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much. Appreciate it, sir.

We're keeping a close watch on the floor of the House of Representatives, where members are setting the stage for a vote that could end the government shutdown, we're going to talk about this and another economic problem, the U.S. possibly going into recession. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:37:19]

TAPPER: Our Money Lead now with the federal government shutdown seemingly on the verge of ending, seemingly. Wall Street closed last hour with the Dow above 48,000 for the very first time. The S&P 500 showing some minor gains. NASDAQ dropping. Joining us now to discuss all of this, financial journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin. You may recognize him from CNBC. And he of course just wrote a new book getting critically acclaimed great reviews. It's called "1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and How It Shattered a Nation."

Andrew, your book details the U.S. economy before the 1929 market crash leading to the depression. You warn, in your view today, stock market mirrors conditions in '29. So do you think we're indeed on track for some sort of crash and -- and how soon?

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: I don't know if we have to have a crash per se, but I do think that there's a lot of things going on in the economy today that look a lot like the late 20s, potentially look like the late 90s. And so invariably that means that we're likely to have some form of a correction. How big a correction, how deep, is always the big question. And when? It's one thing to be a Cassandra and say this is all going to happen. It's another to be able to say it's going to happen tomorrow. I don't think it's going to happen necessarily tomorrow.

I think actually this could play out for a little bit longer, in part because so much money is -- is coursing through our economy in the -- in the flow of artificial intelligence investments. And that doesn't seem like it's going to abate for any -- any time. The real question, of course, is, you know, whether at some point all of these folks that are pouring all this money into this space can continue to afford to do that. And that's when the rubber potentially could meet the road.

TAPPER: So 10 days ago, I interviewed Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent -- Bessent. And I asked if he thinks that we are heading for a recession. Here's part of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: I think that there are sectors of the economy that are in recession. And the Fed has caused a lot of distributional problems, you know, with their policies. If the Fed brings down mortgage rates, then they can end this housing recession.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What are your thoughts?

SORKIN: Look, I don't know if we're headed towards a recession. I assume he was also referring to potentially what the government shutdown could do now that that is hopefully going to be over soon and fixed. I don't know if we get into a recession. I do think we have a real conundrum. And he, of course, would like the administration would like lower interest rates.

The conundrum is, we have an employment picture that's getting weaker. That part is demonstrably true. And so you'd think you'd want the Federal Reserve to try to prop that up by raising -- by -- by lowering rates. But it's not clear that that would actually do the trick in this case, because the reason we're losing -- losing jobs is much more complicated than that.

[17:40:10]

And at the same time, you have inflation, which has been persistent. Now, the inflation picture is coming down a little bit. There's sort of decelerating, but prices are still elevated. And especially in -- in food and a lot of items that we all know about, when you go to the store, you know that they're -- they're more expensive than they used to be.

And so if you wanted to get that problem, you'd want to raise interest rates to push the price.

TAPPER: Right.

SORKIN: So the problem is you're sort of stuck if you're the Federal Reserve and you're stuck to some degree for this administration in this moment.

TAPPER: A new AP poll suggests that 67 percent of the American people are not happy with President Trump's handling of the economy. Now, President Trump has said that these polls are fake. He claims that prices are way down. Meanwhile, obviously inflation is up. Most grocery prices are up. Fewer first time home buyers. The President's floating this 50 year mortgage as an option to -- to save money. What is your response to this 50 year mortgage idea? SORKIN: Look, I mean, conceptually, the argument is that it should allow people who can't afford a home to get into a home at a lower monthly cost. The conundrum is it doesn't really lower the price of housing. Right now, what we have in this -- the problem we have in this country is a supply problem. That is the fundamental problem.

And the other problem is if you extend out that loan for 50 years, first of all, there's a lifetime issue. But beyond that, there's just the fundamental question of when the 50 years are up or even if you were to own the home for -- for 30 years, it could be that the first 20 or 30 years, you're getting no value from all of the money that you're putting in because it's basically just interest payments. So it doesn't really change the dynamic of the housing situation and potentially could create a whole bunch of other problems.

TAPPER: Andrew Ross Sorkin, thanks so much. It was fun to be able to pick your brain and steal you from CNBC for a second. Once again, his new book -- his new book, it's critically acclaimed. It's selling all over the place. It's called "1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and How It Shattered a Nation." The great Andrew, sorry, the great Andrew Ross Sorkin, thank you so much. Great to have you on the show. Everybody go buy his book.

The beginnings of a dramatic night on Capitol Hill start right now with the House of Representatives gearing up for that vote that could potentially finally end the government shutdown. Keep it here as this plays out. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:47]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, we're just moments away from a key House vote that sets up an end, potentially, to the 43-day government shutdown. Let's bring in CNN anchor and senior analyst, Audie Cornish, who's also a CNN political commentator, from the Dispatch, Jonah Goldberg. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, we should note, has taken a beating from a lot of House Democrats. Ro Khanna from California is calling for Schumer to be replaced. Not all House Democrats are piling on. Take a listen to Congressman Hank Johnson from Georgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HANK JOHNSON (R-GA): I don't think it's wise for Democrats to engage in a circular firing squad. Disagreed with some of his strategies in the past, but he's very knowledgeable about what Democrats can accomplish in the Senate. And his job is to herd cats, to try to make that happen. I don't think there's anybody at this point who's better qualified to do it other than Chuck Schumer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Jonah, do you think the Democrats accomplished anything with the shutdown fight? JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I kind of -- I kind of think they did. I think Chuck Schumer didn't do much for himself, which was really, I think, his primary motivation. But, you know, the Democrats changed the messaging on this stuff to health care, which was generally good for them. The polling still seemed to back Democrats on all this. I don't think it should have.

I mean, the actual position of the Democrats, I thought, was unbelievably incoherent. But, you know, I think they came out of this about as good as they could. Chuck Schumer is terribly bruised. It doesn't really matter what House members say about him. And he's not going to get ousted. You know, whether he runs again is another question. But you need like half of the Democratic caucus to vote to oust him as leader. And that's just not going to happen.

TAPPER: Speaking of what's next for Schumer, Progressive Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, there's been a lot of talk about whether she's going to run statewide, challenge Schumer, maybe even run for president. She was asked today about how Schumer handled the shutdown. Here's some of what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): This is not just about Senator Schumer. We have a cycle coming up with many primaries, not Senator Schumer's, but many Senate primaries that where voters are going to be deciding between candidates. And my hope is that in places like New Hampshire, in places like Illinois, and in other places that we send fighting Democrats to the United States Senate.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Speaking of primaries, are you considering primarying him?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: He's not up for --

RAJU: He's up in 2028.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: But he's not up for election this cycle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So she mentioned New Hampshire and Illinois, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire. Those are two of the eight Senate Democrats who joined with Republicans to end the shutdown. And they are both retiring next year. Audie, Democrats just notched some big election wins now that the shutdown's over and the party seems somewhat divided and all this.

Do you think that these fights, the circular firing squad, as Congressman Johnson referred to it, do you think this has taken away the Democratic momentum?

[17:50:05]

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR/SENIOR ANALYST: You know, Jonah's actually talked about this before with me, this idea of this -- this new matrix of what makes for a fighting Democrat, your style of fight, how aggressive you are, versus your ability to get things done and these other kinds of skills that obviously are still required in the Senate.

I'm interested in the fact that the Congresswoman mentioned those states, not just because they're up and that's where people are retiring, but she's trying to signal that it doesn't need to be a battle only blue states. It doesn't need to be only very progressive places. She immediately, I think, is trying not to be pigeonholed as it's just a kind of a New York thing and say that there's a certain kind of fight that will be demanded now and required by primary voters.

TAPPER: And Jonah, the last thing Speaker Johnson wanted to talk about today was the Epstein files, even though the House Oversight Committee released 20,000. How significant are these new e-mails, the ones that you've had -- had a chance to look at?

GOLDBERG: Well, they -- they -- I -- I'd say they're -- they're -- they seem to be, you know, you never know what you're seeing sort of out of context and all that kind of stuff. I've long thought that it was very unlikely that they would find anything criminal in any of this, because -- not because I think Donald Trump is a saintly figure or anything like that, but that that stuff would have leaked.

There are a lot of people in the FBI, in the Biden Justice Department, and I just assumed that if there was anything that could have been truly used against him in the court of law, it would have come out by now. But it's pretty clear that at the very minimum, it's embarrassing stuff. And the Trump White House very clearly, I mean, they're having a meeting in the Situation Room with Lauren Boebert to try and talk her out of supporting the release of all of this stuff.

They're clearly worried about the -- the -- the optics of it. And it seems like they should, in a way that I -- I kind of didn't expect.

CORNISH: Yes, I'm the same way, because they also had so many weeks to go to these lawmakers and say, hey, by the way, we don't want this petition to come forward. And it feels like there's more effort going into this than there was with the government shutdown.

TAPPER: A new CNN film this weekend features New Zealand's former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern. And Audie, you spoke with the Prime Minister, the former Prime Minister separately, about the tone of politics right now. Let's play a little bit of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACINDA ARDERN, FORMER NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER: I think we make a mistake to assume that what people want is what they engage in. You know, I think that we engage, it's human instinct. We engage in those things that cause a human emotion, a reaction that cause rage.

And so I think that is one of the issues we have. Those things that we click on are the things that then will be written about. We will continue to read about. And yet what we miss are those politicians who are out there grafting away, trying to solve problems, trying to build consensus. You know, we don't spotlight that anymore. And yet I do still believe instinctively that's what people are looking for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Audie, that's an interesting diagnosis. I don't know if she's talking about New Zealand there or the U.S., but rage bait is certainly a big problem here in the U.S.

CORNISH: It is. Towards the end of her term, there was some backlash to pandemic quarantines. There were Trump signs in New Zealand. It became a sort of symbolism of the backlash to what was seen as a kind of progressive overreach on issues around the -- around COVID. But following the AOC tape that we just heard, it's also interesting. What does it mean to fight? What does it mean to draw attention? Is there a way to do that? That still feels very sort of human and empathetic without those things being seen as weaknesses.

TAPPER: Audie and Jonah, thanks to both of you. That new CNN film is called Prime Minister and it debuts Sunday at 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN.

[17:54:02]

CNN's Manu Raju is coming up next with some brand new reporting from Capitol Hill as the House of Representatives sets up that final vote to end the government shutdown. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Back with breaking news coming up ahead of the shutdown vote. A victory today for the effort to force a House vote to compel the Justice Department to release the full Epstein files. CNN's Manu Raju is back with us. And Manu, you have some new reporting about the Epstein files. What is it?

RAJU: Yes, I just spoke to Congressman Thomas Massie. He is leading that effort to force a vote on the House floor. And he made very clear that now that there are 218 signatures to force this vote on the House floor, nothing -- that vote will absolutely come to the floor. You cannot -- if you have signed that petition, remove your name off of this petition. And the vote is expected to happen.

And I asked him about his now, the push. Now, ahead of this vote, which will happen after Thanksgiving. We expect it to happen in the first week of December. He said the goal is to get enough Republicans to get a veto proof majority in the House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And how many Republicans do you think will vote for this on the floor?

REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Well, I've already had a couple Republicans tell my office privately that they're going to vote for it. And I think that could snowball. You know, the deal for Republicans on this vote is that Trump will protect you if you vote the wrong way. In other words, if you vote to cover up for pedophiles, you've got cover in a Republican primary.

But I would remind my colleagues, this vote is going to be on your record for longer than Trump is going to be president. And what are you going to do in 2028 and -- and 2030 when you're in a debate either with a Republican or a Democrat and they say, how can we trust you? You covered up for a pedophile back in, you know, 2025.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:00:02]

RAJU: And the goal for Thomas Massie then, Jake, is to get 70 House Republicans to vote for this and divide the President. Of course, that is a very tall order, but nevertheless, a big vote will happen in the House to release those Epstein files first week of December, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.