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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Epstein Files Bill Heads To Trump After Congressional Approval; DOJ Responds To Comey Grand Jury Bombshell; Feds Up Reward To $15M For Ex-Olympian On FBI Most Wanted List; Larry Summers Resigns From OpenAI Board After Epstein Emails Surface. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 19, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:12]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks to my panel. Really appreciate you guys joining us today. Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. Don't forget, you can now stream The Arena live. Catch up whenever you want to or video on demand in the CNN app. Just go ahead and scan that QR code below.

You can also catch up by listening to The Arenas podcast. It has its own QR code. Pamela Brown is standing by The Lead. Hi, Pam.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Hi. Thanks so much, Kasie. We'll see you back at The Arena tomorrow.

HUNT: Have a great show.

BROWN: The Justice Department has a new message about the Epstein files. The Lead starts right now. So when will America finally see the highly anticipated Epstein files? Who are the pedophiles clients and how much data will be redacted? Attorney General Pam Bondi is weighing in.

Plus, breaking news in the criminal case against former FBI Director James Comey. A deadline this hour for the Trump loyalist prosecutor to show her work and explain why a full grand jury was not fully informed on the indictment.

And the earnings report that could have a big impact on your retirement. What Nvidia, Wall Street's most valuable traded company just revealed about its financial status.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Pamela Brown in for Jake Tapper. And we still start with our Law and Justice Lead. President Trump has said he will sign the bill, quote, whenever it

gets to the White House. It passed the House and the Senate and we are waiting to learn more about the timing of when Trump receives and signs that bill.

So what happens after that? It's still somewhat unclear if the Department of Justice will release all of the files relating to the convicted sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein or whether some documents will remained tied up due to active investigations.

Investigations into Democrats that Trump requested and Attorney General Pam Bondi immediately open despite previously saying there was nothing left to investigate. Here is what Bondi said when asked about this earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does the new investigation by the Southern District of New York U.S. attorney prevent the department from releasing all of the remaining files?

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: So we have released 33,000, over 33,000 Epstein documents to the Hill and we'll continue to follow the law and to have maximum transparency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What changed since then that you launched this investigation?

BONDI: Information that has come for -- information. There's information that new information, additional information and again, we will continue to follow the law to investigate any leads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Information. Got it. Bondi was also asked if she would provide all the files within 30 days, as the law requires. And she responded, quote, we will follow the law. So let's get to CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.

Kristen, the House and Senate have both passed this bill, and the president had said he would sign it as soon as it got to his desk. So where is the bill? Is it at the White House?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, that's the question we've all been trying to get to the bottom of. We have about 10 White House producers and reporters who have been asking all of their sources, when is he going to sign the bill? Is the bill even at the White House, all to at least mostly radio silence.

Stephen Miller, the deputy chief of staff, was caught by reporters asked when President Trump was going to sign this bill. And he said he had no update on that at this time. And just a reminder, it wasn't just one White House official. It was a number of White House officials who said alongside President Trump himself, that he would sign this bill when it hit his desk.

Now, were told that after it was sent over by the Senate that the process of getting it here to the White House could take a few hours. But that was hours and hours and hours ago. And we still have no reaction, no answers to the questions of whether or not it's even here, whether or not it's even made it to President Trump's desk.

So, of course, this is raising even more questions as to in particular, is he going to actually sign this bill? Again, White House officials and the president himself have said have committed to him signing it. Then the big question becomes if he does in fact sign it, what's actually released and when is it released?

I've been told by White House officials President Trump isn't going to stand in the way of any of these documents being released. But again, we still don't even have the basics of whether or not the bill is here at the White House. So, Pamela.

BROWN: I know you're working the phones as it has is the entire White House team. We'll see. Thank you so much Kristen Holmes.

And I want to bring the two men who started that petition leading to a rare show of unity and the Epstein files on the verge of being released. Republican Congressman Thomas Massie and Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you both for coming on.

Just first of all, do either of you know the status of the bill? Do you know if it's made its way to the White House or when the president will sign it?

[17:05:00]

REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): The Senate sent it to the White House. Unless they've lost it should be there. And he has 10 calendar days, not counting Sunday, to sign it, according to my staff. So we think it's about December 1st when he has to sign this.

Maybe they want to slow it down a little bit because it starts a very aggressive 30-day calendar. They have to release the files within 30 days after the bill is enacted into law.

BROWN: Congressman Ro Khanna, I want to bring you in on this. Are you worried at all that there could be some extra hurdles or obstacles here?

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I'm confident the President will sign it. He was embarrassed once where he had to reverse himself. He knows that there was an overwhelming vote and he knows the math. I mean, the last thing he wants to do is drag this story on of him not complying. The question, though, is whether all the files will be released.

Now, I am concerned because Pam Bondi in the past said there's nothing more to release. Now suddenly she's saying, well, we're going to follow the law and there's more to release. So obviously there was a contradiction. But I do believe that they will ultimately release the files because we have upped the stakes because my bill with Congressman Massie has passed. Now it is a criminal offense for any career official at the Justice Department or the FBI not to release these files. It's a contempt of Congress.

So it's no longer, oh, we just don't feel like doing it now you're violating federal law and that's something very serious.

BROWN: Well, Congressman Massie, Attorney General Pam Bondi repeatedly said today that she would follow the law when it comes to releasing the Epstein files. Do you believe that means the Justice Department will release all of the Epstein files within 30 days? MASSIE: They're eventually going to have to -- look, there is an

exception for ongoing investigations, but you can't have two or three ongoing investigations and claim that you're not going to release any of the Epstein files. Because our bill, the law that she says she's going to follow says that the exceptions for ongoing investigations have to be narrowly tailored to the investigation they have. They would have to jeopardize the investigation and they can only be temporary.

So, she doesn't have carte blanche to withhold a whole tranche of files. And I heard her say tens of thousands or 30,000 documents have been released. We're not counting by the number of documents that have been released. We're counting by the number of perpetrators who have been indicted.

BROWN: Congressman Khanna, Democratic Congressman, your colleague there, Jamie Raskin, has been at the forefront of pushing for the release of the Epstein files. But last night, as the House voted against reprimanding Democratic Delegate Stacey Plaskett for communicating with Epstein during a 2019 congressional hearing, Raskin said this. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): They want to arraign her on some charges based on a newspaper article that she did something lawful, however ill-advised it may have been. She took a phone call from one of her constituents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Epstein was already a convicted sex criminal when Plaskett communicated with him. Is Congressman Raskin downplaying this and giving her a pass?

KHANNA: Well, what she did was wrong. I don't defend it. I don't believe that it rises to the level of kicking people off their committees. And I don't like that we're doing that in a tit for tat fashion in the Congress. But certainly what she did was wrong. And I believe whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you have to have accountability.

I mean, what Larry Summers did, texting and emailing Jeffrey Epstein was wrong. And so one of the things that Thomas and I have been committed to is let the facts come out. And the people who are part of the Epstein class need to be held accountable and they need to go. And it's not a matter of Democrat or Republican.

BROWN: Right. I mean, both Democrats and Republicans, including Trump, you know, their names have been in these emails or they were exchanging these communications. I'm wondering, Congressman Massie, as you look back over this journey that you've been on with others, including Congressman Khanna and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Congresswoman Boebert, how do you make sense of all the whiplash and how we got to this point and the we're not going to release anything and bringing, you know, Congresswoman Boebert into the situation, we're going to try and get her not to sign. And then here we are with a near unanimous vote to release the files. Like, how do we make sense of that?

MASSIE: Well, my hat is off to Lauren Boebert for withstanding that tremendous whip effort, and also to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace for staying with Ro and I keeping their signatures on the document. A lot of my colleagues do have whiplash. You know, the vote was 427 to 1. I went up and shook the guy's hand who was the one. I said, well, at least you didn't flip flop twice. You know, I respect that.

If it's a hoax, it sounds like Pam Bondi has had this information at the same time that the President has still been calling it a hoax or a Democrat hoax.

[17:10:05]

So not only are they changing their tune all the time, they don't seem to be singing from the same hymnal.

BROWN: What do you make of that, Congressman Khanna? And also this investigation DOJ is launching into Democrats after DOJ had said that there was no more investigation to be done here.

KHANNA: Well, first of all, the credit goes to the survivors. I mean, they really came to the Capitol twice. And we see that when courageous Americans are not political, speak out. They can move presidents. They can move speakers. They really will have the last word, especially if it's a righteous cause.

One of the reasons there's been such an outpouring on this is not just the justice for survivors. People also like that Congress seems functional again, that we've reasserted our role. We are Article 1 were not supplicants to the president, regardless of who's in the White House.

And it shows that when you build creative coalitions, when you're willing to work across the aisle, you can actually get something done. I want anyone investigated, but I don't want it to be politicized because that's a disservice to these survivors. These survivors want the facts out. They want the files released. They don't want it politicized. Some of them voted for President Trump, some of them.

BROWN: On a different issue, you both connected years ago working on legislation to halt U.S. military support to Saudi Arabia for its war in Yemen. Congressman Massie, do you take issue at all with how President Trump yesterday defended Saudi Arabia's human rights record and said Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman had nothing to do with the murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi despite the fact that the U.S. Intelligence assessment says he approved the murder? He's denied it.

MASSIE: Well, I'm not completely in sync with the president on foreign policy. I'll have to admit that. This is the problem when you get entangled with these other countries. Do you own all of the things that they do when you are sending them money? How do you vet them? Who qualifies and who doesn't?

I'm in favor of sending nobody foreign aid and funding nobody's wars overseas other than ones that America has to fight.

BROWN: What about you, Congressman Khanna?

KHANNA: We need more people who are against foreign wars, against endless wars. I agree with Congressman Massie. I mean, why are we getting into a war possibly in Venezuela? Why are we spending money aligned with Saudi Arabia in their defense needs when we could be spending that money here at home, creating jobs here at home. There is anti-war coalition that is sick of these foreign wars and wants us to support America.

And by the way, President Trump ran on that. He ran on America First. And I wish he was listening more to people in his own coalition on this.

BROWN: All right, Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, thank you so much for your time, gentlemen. Appreciate it.

MASSIE: Thank you.

KHANNA: Thank you.

BROWN: Ahead, the fallout already for a high profile name once connected to Epstein. Hear what former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers is telling his students at Harvard about his dies to the dead pedophile.

But first, the breaking news. A deadline this hour in the criminal case against former FBI Director James Comey. What a judge is demanding to know from the Trump loyalists who took this case to a grand jury. We'll be back.

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[17:17:28]

BROWN: Breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead. Moments ago, the Justice Department responded to a bombshell revealed in the case. President Trump's handpicked U.S. Interim Attorney Lindsey Halligan brought against former FBI Director James Comey. There was silence in the courtroom, and Halligan revealed she never presented the charging documents to the full grand jury. The judge also said the case is, quote, too weighty and too complex to rule today.

Now, remember, all of this stems from an accusation that Comey lied during a 2020 hearing about whether he authorized leaks. Comey believes this is all about Trump being vindictive, that the investigators have mishandled the case and he wants the charges. Joining U.S. now is CNN's Katelyn Polantz and former U.S. attorney Harry Litman.

You were both in the courtroom today for this, I think it's fair to say bombshell hearing. Right. You said you were gobsmacked earlier. KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

BROWN: Before we get into all of that, what did the Justice Department just say moments ago?

POLANTZ: Yes, so they filed their explanation, plus some other arguments, and they say it's fine, it's normal, nothing to see here. They say that what happened that was said in court today revealed that there was only one charging document that the grand jury was presented with that they deliberated for over two hours.

And then there was some changes made to it by the prosecutor, removing one of the charges but keeping the two that the grand jury would have been support of. They say, yes, that is exactly what happened. I'll read a little bit more from what the prosecutors are writing now in explaining this to the judge. They say this was not an unusual series of events and is fully explained by the U.S. attorney's declaration. That would be what Lindsey Halligan has said already.

The court reporter's recollection, the grand jury coordinator's discussion with the grand jury foreperson and the grand jury foreperson's explanation in court. They also say there's not an issue here, quote, is not an issue. The transcript is complete, the procedure was proper, and no aspect of the record supports the magistrate judge's assumptions. This is all about whether Comey's team can build their case that there were things handled inappropriately with the grand jury.

And they say, no, that's not correct. And you should not allow Comey's defense team to get access to grand jury transcripts. Comey's team, of course, will have a chance to respond. That is expected by the end of day Friday.

BROWN: And just for our viewers to understand, because this is, you know, we're legal nerds. Right? But so basically the -- it came out today that Lindsey Halligan did not show the full grand jury this indictment, the final indictment. She had the foreperson sign off on it.

[17:20:00]

I'm wondering, as a former U.S. attorney yourself, how unusual this is because DOJ is saying nothing to see here, but, I mean, is there something to see here?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Hallie's comment, more unusual than that. Never, ever have I or anyone I know ever seen anything like this and remember how it came about. They were trying to figure out what did she do because she said, I never talked to the grand jury again. So when did she approve that second indictment? And the answer, it turned out to be in open court, and Nachmanoff had her come up to the podium, was never. She had never.

The grand jury never even looked at the actual indictment that is operative in this case. Absolutely unprecedented violation of many rules, et cetera. And Kate's totally right about what they're saying, but they are

acknowledging the sort of 11 violations that Fitzpatrick found and more, but they're saying, nevertheless, you can't give them the information or you can't dismiss, but they're basically acknowledging some huge and as I say, unprecedented kind of blunders.

BROWN: And you've been talking, Katelyn, to people connected to Halligan's office. It sounds like they're not so sure how this is going to play out.

POLANTZ: Yes, I mean, the way it landed in court was like this was a thud that everyone took a minute to react to. Even the judge, he was clearly -- he just didn't know how to react. He went silent. He sort of sat back in his chair and then had the prosecutors repeat that this was indeed what happened with the grand jury.

But the people that I talked to after the hearing, there's a mixed bag. There's not really case law on this. And, you know, is this a clerical error? Is it something that they could correct as prosecutors? Maybe it isn't something that has gone up through this court system.

However, the issue that the magistrate judge has been looking at is whether there was an irregularity in the way that this came about. Did the prosecutors mishandle a bunch of things? Evidence, the presentation of the grand jury? Did witnesses, the agent that testified, say something they weren't supposed to be talking about? The evidence that they had seen, should they not have seen that? Did the prosecutor do something where she said something wrong to the grand jury? This plays into that. That's why it matters.

BROWN: Just take it a step back really quick --

LITMAN: Yes.

BROWN: -- and I want to let you weigh in. We have to go back to that infamous Truth Social post that was then taken down when Trump addressed the attorney general, Pam Bondi saying that Lindsey Halligan was great and quote, we can't delay any longer on Comey's indictment. So with that context in the background and now learning that instead of just bringing the final indictment back to the full grand jury, she just had the foreperson sign off on it. What story does that tell you?

LITMAN: Right. And that had been the focus until this gobsmacking moment of she did what. But you're absolutely right. And the claim by the United States was, it was still 100 percent Lindsey Halligan's decision, even though she only had three days to make it. And the defense claim was common sense. Give me a break. Obviously, it flows causally from what Trump did.

That had been the whole skirmish until this Perry Mason moment that, you know, happens in movies but not in real life, where it turns out they had never -- the grand jury had never even seen the indictment in the file.

BROWN: But does it signal to you there was a rush to -- LITMAN: There was a rush --

BROWN: Yes.

LITMAN: -- because of the statute of limitation.

BROWN: Yes.

LITMAN: And they rushed her in. And that's going to matter a lot, too, because that's an extra element here. If it's dismissed, can you nevertheless sort of relate back to the statute of limitations they're going to -- Nachmanoff will have to give them a lot of breaks in order to let them slide here. And remember, he could first and foremost just say, vindictive prosecution. Case dismissed, end of story.

BROWN: All right, we shall see. Harry Litman, Katelyn Polantz. Thank you both. Appreciate it.

Up next, the new $15 million reward for a former Olympic snowboarder who's now fugitive. A fugitive on the FBI's most wanted list.

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[17:28:09]

BROWN: In our World Lead, an already massive reward leading to the capture of a former Olympic snowboarder just got bigger. The FBI is now offering $15 million for information leading to the arrest of Ryan Wedding. He's been on the agency's most wanted list. And today, Attorney General Pam Bondi revealed these new charges against Wedding, accusing him of running an international ring, that's on top of the drug and murder charges he already faced.

So let's bring in CNN chief law enforcement analyst John Miller. Hi, John. I mean, the Justice Department must feel that this case is a pretty big deal for the attorney general to schedule a news conference about this guy. How significant is this?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I think it's very significant. And you know, when you look at what the FBI and the Department of Justice have been doing with that 10 most wanted list, you know, this year alone, they have taken four people off that list who've been captured. And Ryan Wedding is sitting up there, and I think they'd like to take him off, too.

So increasing the reward is key, but he's a significant figure in that. You know, here is a guy who was an Olympic snowboarder in 2002 on the Canadian team in Salt Lake City, came in 24th place. Not exactly the king of the white power -- in the powder in the giant slalom.

But then he got into the other white powder, where he seemed to do much more successfully. He set up his own organization, getting supplied by the Sinaloa cartel. He then grew into his own mini cartel with a network of criminal associates, according to the FBI. And the charges filed today, where he would ship 60 tons of cocaine through the United States into Southern California, distribute that across other states and then up to Canada. So significant operation.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, he has been on the run for a year now. How hard is it to find him at this point?

[17:30:00]

MILLER: So it's hard because A, he's in Mexico, B, he's kind of a mini cartel boss, according to the feds, which gives him resources and tons of money to hide behind in an environment where it's not impossible to corrupt local authorities. But let's take a look at the other key.

One of the charges here is that he had a key witness against him tracked down and murdered by a team of sicarios, hitmen in Colombia by using information he allegedly got from his lawyer, inside information as to who the witness was, using his network to enlist a madam at a brothel down there to get sex workers to try and determine this guy's location.

And then a hitman that found him in a restaurant, waited there for him, killed him there, and a photographer who came behind the hitman to document that he was in fact killed. Those are the kinds of resources and threats that even for someone who could provide that information would make them hesitate. And $15 million in reward could make them not hesitate.

BROWN: There you go. John Miller, thank you so much.

MILLER: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: Well, this hour, growing uncertainty on the status of that bill that passed overwhelmingly by Congress to release the Epstein files. When is President Trump planning to sign that bill? Up next, how this entire ordeal is sitting with Epstein survivors who are making it their personal mission to get justice.

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[17:35:47]

BROWN: We are still awaiting developments on our top story in the Law and Justice Lead. The bill to force the Justice Department to release the Epstein files has been sent to the White House for the president to sign. But administration officials have yet to say when exactly that signing could happen.

Here with us now is one of the survivors of Epstein's abuse, Marina Lacerda. Marina, it has been such an emotional roller coaster for you leading to this point. What does today feel like for you?

MARINA LACERDA, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Well, today feels a little bit more relieved than yesterday. I'm just overwhelmed with a lot of emotions at this point. And it's so hard to even process what, you know, from yesterday today, what's been going on.

So I'm thrilled, but yet a little bit skeptical about things, how they are. BROWN: And what makes you skeptical?

LACERDA: Well, first of all, you know, these files were -- first were a hoax. Right. And then we had the government shut down. And then these files have been flying around somewhat to Trump's hands or the DOJ. We don't even know where they've been. Right. So when we say that the Epstein files will get released, that Trump is now saying that, but also saying that he's going to open up an investigation, it just brings us to say, why is he now wanting to release the files and have those files been tampered with? That's what we're worried about.

BROWN: You're worried about that. And when it comes to the timeline of when we could see the files, the law says that it should be within 30 days. The attorney general, Pam Bondi today said she will follow the law and she added, quote, with maximum transparency while protecting victims.

As one of the survivors of the center of the case, what is your message to her about the information the public needs to see?

LACERDA: Well, I would like to tell her that thank you for joining the fight with us because in the beginning we really thought she was with us. And then we realized that she wasn't, but now she is. And again, we don't know for sure if she is, right? We would like to say, please do release those files. And if you are going to release those files, redact the names of the survivors and let's keep the names there, that the public does need to know who they are.

BROWN: And let's talk a little bit more for our viewers about your story and how you ended up as one of the survivors of Epstein.

LACERDA: Well, I was going through a very difficult time. I was abused by my stepfather from the age of 8 till 12, and everybody knew that I was. I got abused by my stepfather. And a girl who lived in the neighborhood said to me, hey, you know, you look like you're going through a very tough time at home. You're working about two jobs. You know, I was 14 at the time.

And she said, I got a really, you know, easy gig for you. And I said, sure, why not? And, you know, she said to me, well, you're going to go in and, you know, you're going to do a massage with an older gentleman, and he's very rich and very, you know, very cool, and it'll be something quick and you'll make, you know, 300 bucks. And I was like, okay.

You know, being a young girl, 14, it didn't seem like the worst thing ever, only because I was abused by my stepfather from the age, and not only, you know, emotionally and sexually abused. I was physically abused by him. So it didn't seem like the worst thing ever. But little did I know that the abuse of Epstein was -- that was another -- it was just another beginning for me with Epstein.

BROWN: So obviously, that caused a lot of trauma for you, understandably. There is at least one woman who didn't show up at the event with the fellow survivors, and it was explained as to why, and that's because she was fearful because of the threats. I'm wondering what it takes to use your voice and come out like this and what you faced throughout this ordeal.

LACERDA: You know, I have to say all of the survivors, you know, are very scared. You know, I think some of us are empowered and, you know, to keep on going and to keep on speaking, because we don't want for other women or other men who are getting abused to feel like they need to be silenced because they are threatened.

But we do have to respect, you know, how other survivors feel, you know, and we also have to understand that we are dealing with very powerful people here.

[17:40:00]

So we don't have any protection. But for myself, I've only gotten love from the public and from everybody all over the world. And I think, and I hope that it continues to stay this way.

BROWN: I hope it's been healing for you in some way after all that you have been through. Marina Lacerda, thank you so much.

LACERDA: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Up next, what former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers told his students at Harvard about his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. And video from inside the classroom as he takes private steps to remove himself from the public eye.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY SUMMERS, ECONOMIST AND FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: Some of you will have seen my statement of regret, expressing my shame, with respect to what I did in communication with Mr. Epstein and that I've said that I'm going to step back from public activities for a time, but I think it's very important to fulfill my teaching obligation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:45:07]

BROWN: So that was Larry Summers, former Treasury secretary turned Harvard professor, addressing his students yesterday about his connections to the Epstein scandal. The Crimson student newspaper says the university is launching an investigation into Summers ties to Epstein.

Summers also announced today that he is resigning from the board of OpenAI. Summers name surfaced in emails released by the House Oversight Committee. And in the messages, Summers appears to make sexist comments and tries to get Epstein's romantic advice. Those emails were from the Epstein estate. We have yet to see what else is in those DOJ files.

Senator Elizabeth Warren again made clear today where she stands on Summers holding any position of power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): No one should trust Larry Summers judgment, and Larry Summers should not be trusted in a position of responsibility or in a position of teaching our students.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, let's bring in the panel. And I want to start with you, Arlette, because you were the one who spoke with Senator Warren there. Are you seeing similar outrage from other lawmakers on the Hill?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Elizabeth Warren is a unique figure here. She has clashed with Larry Summers in the past over economic policy, and she did serve as a professor of law at Harvard Law School for quite some time. So I think that's part of. Of what is fueling her willingness to be out there criticizing Summers and saying that he should not be in a teaching position or in a position of power.

But we really haven't heard a ton of Democrats, you know, rushing to the cameras to criticize Larry Summers after these email exchanges were released. But there is an acknowledgment from Democrats on Capitol Hill that the release of the Epstein files could impact members of their own party.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer was asked about that today and asked about Republicans who have said that there could be Democrats, there could be Democratic donors who come up in this email list. And Schumer says we just need to get the information out there, regardless of which party is going to be impacted.

So Democrats are well aware that this could impact people within their party, and they may have to grapple with the fallout of that as well.

BROWN: Yes. And it is certainly happening with their own congresswoman. Right. Stacey Plaskett, who barely escaped a censure after communicating with Epstein during a 2019 hearing where she was questioning Michael Cohen. I actually had her on my show earlier today, The Situation Room, and I asked her about this if she had any regrets texting with him. And this is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY PLASKETT, U.S. HOUSE DELEGATE: I think Jeffrey Epstein is a reprehensible person. Absolutely disgusting. I believe that Jeffrey Epstein had information and I was going to get information to get at the truth. Having a friendship with him is not something that I would deemed to have. And so I'm just looking forward.

BROWN: So no regrets, basically, is what you're saying.

PLASKETT: I'm moving forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Kate, do you think she can, in her words, move forward from this or do you think she should have acknowledged more there?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think she should have acknowledged more. I also think she should have accepted censure from the House. And I think the way the Democrats handled this, I think was not smart, frankly. I am not certain she'll be able to move on from it, in part because the this is going to continue to be a conversation if and when we see the files, there are going to be more names. We know that there are potentially going to be, as Arlette was saying, Democratic donors or others.

And I think Democrats should hold a very tough line on this. You know, I think anybody who was involved inappropriate conversations with Epstein or in any way whitewashing Epstein's behavior should absolutely be held accountable for that. And I think Democrats should be very tough about that, even if they are people who have historically been helpful to the Democratic Party.

BROWN: Because if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be very different.

BEDINGFIELD: Absolutely. And there's a moral and ethical question here, too. Some things do actually supersede politics, and this is one of them, in my opinion.

BROWN: What do you think, Matt?

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIME SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: No, I mean, look, this is the kind of the flip side of what Democrats have been talking about for months. They've been talking about this and wanting at the bottom of it because they, you know, I think they thought it could hurt Republicans. We're seeing the flip side of that. Stacey Plaskett, Hakeem Jeffries soliciting or his firm soliciting money from Jeffrey Epstein and Larry Summers.

This is the kind of the flip side of Democrats now getting involved in this. It's going to be a reckoning, I think when we see most of these files come out, maybe some new names as well, who knows?

BROWN: So, you know, I do want to follow up with you, though, because at the same time you're talking about comm strategy, how they should handle this. When you look at the overall Republican strategy over Epstein and the files and whether to release him or not, it's a bit of whiplash over the last couple of weeks. What do you make of that?

GORMAN: Yes. Well, I think finally there is acknowledgment that you're not going to be able to stop this train. It's a horse out of the barn, so to speak. So get it over with. Get the vote. And, you know, as you saw with President Trump, focus on what people I think are actually going to vote on next year, which is the economy. Right.

And I think that is what inevitably ended up becoming the strategy of this.

[17:50:00]

But you're right, I think you're going to see both parties be affected by this. We've certainly seen some of the Republicans were on the defensive over this. And now I think the White House feels like they can go on offense a little bit with the Democratic names now being circulated.

BEDINGFIELD: Although I would say, I mean, Trump, the way Trump has handled this has he has behaved as if he is guilty. Whether he is guilty or not, he has behaved, he has had the posture of somebody who was doing everything in his power to try to keep these files from being made public.

We've also seen him repeatedly, even after he kind of reluctantly gave the blessing to the House Republicans to vote for the release. You know, we saw him be asked yesterday about this in the Oval and had an incredibly defensive, angry response had an incredibly defensive, angry response on Air Force One when he was asked about it.

So the idea that he is somehow going to, I think, change his posture in a way that is going to allow him to move past this, I'm not sure I see that either.

BROWN: I want to, and I'll go to you in a second, Arlette, but just to follow up with you, because you used to be in the White House, right. What do you make of the Republicans criticism now saying, look, Democrats suddenly, now that Trump has taken office, they're acting like they care so much and they're being so vocal about this. Where was that outcry in the Biden administration?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, during the Biden administration, for example, Ghislaine Maxwell was still -- her case was still on appeal. So there were legal limitations to what could --

BROWN: But it's been under appeal until October of this year, right?

BEDINGFIELD: Could have been made public. But also Donald Trump and Trump's allies are the ones who campaigned on releasing these files. I mean, I think that's the important thing here. This is an expectation that Trump and his allies set by declaring repeatedly that if he became president, he's the one who would release these files. So this is a discussion in many ways of his own making.

BROWN: I'm just wondering, Arlette, as you're talking to sources on Capitol Hill, what are they saying about this and all the whiplash?

SAENZ: Well, I think that a lot of people are bracing for what happens once these files are released. And you've already heard lawmakers start to talk about what could happen if the Justice Department decides to withhold information. I think that that's something that a lot of these lawmakers are thinking about very hard.

Earlier today, we heard from Senator Blumenthal, who said that he's already thinking of different ways to obtain information in the event that the Justice Department doesn't follow through with this. So I think there's going to be a lot of focus from both Democrats and Republican lawmakers on holding the Justice Department to account in making sure that they adhere to this statute.

BROWN: And you also saw the chairman of the oversight, the Republican Chairman Comer, issue subpoenas to two financial institutions, I think just yesterday. So it continues on different fronts. Thank you all so much. Stick around. There's a lot more to talk about.

A red carpet welcome wasn't enough. Ahead the second day of President Trump promoting his budding relationship with the Saudi crown prince, the man the CIA said ordered a deadly hit on journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:56:52]

BROWN: And the World Lead, tomorrow more of the newly freed Israeli hostages who came out of Gaza under the U.S. brokered cease fire plan will meet President Donald Trump at the White House. One of those is Bar Kupershtein, a security guard at the Nova Music Festival taken hostage on October 7, 2023 after he stayed to help others at the scene.

A decision he says he would make again. He endured beatings and starvation but never stopped believing he would return home. Bar Kupershtein sat down with CNN's Oren Liebermann before his flight to Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Bar Kupershtein, thank you for sitting down with us. How are you and how is it to be back in Israel?

BAR KUPERSHTEIN, RELEASED HOSTAGE (through translator): It's an amazing feeling. There is an excitement every day when you wake up in the morning here and not there in the tunnels and you are alive and breathing. I thank God every day for this.

LIEBERMANN: Take me back to the 7th of October. What do you remember from that day?

KUPERSHTEIN (through translator): Everything. It's etched here in my mind for the rest of my life.

LIEBERMANN: You came out of captivity a month ago. You've told your story. You've spoken at Hostages Square. What is it that even when they hear your story, people simply can't understand about what you went through?

KUPERSHTEIN (through translator): There were moments when they tried to execute us, when they starved us, when they abused us, whether with beatings, physically, verbally depriving us from basic human conditions. It was awful. You feel like the most miserable person in the world.

Whatever went through, we said among ourselves that we are simply in hell. I think that God put us in a kind of test. We told ourselves that we are now at the lowest point, the bottom of the bottom, and from there, we can only go up.

LIEBERMANN: You've talked about your religion and how it became stronger while you were in captivity, how, why?

KUPERSHTEIN (through translator): In captivity, one really connects to God. You can talk to him. He saved me. Not once or twice I was supposed to be killed in bombings or something else in these whole two years. Every day was a miracle that I stayed alive. And you want to express gratitude for that. So you give what you can of yourself.

LIEBERMANN: You're going to the United States. You're going to meet President Donald Trump. What are you going to say to him?

KUPERSHTEIN (through translator): First of all, thank you very much. He played a big part in us getting out of there, and I don't know what else. I guess whatever is on my heart, I see him as an emissary of God. God said we needed to get out of there, and he was the emissary. He did it.

LIEBERMANN: Bar, thank you for your time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Pamela Brown in for Jake Tapper. And this hour, President Trump is pushing the U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia today, selling the financial ties between the two nations. So how does Congress feel about this? I'll ask a Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

[18:00:04]

Plus, questions about the bill to release the Epstein files when will President Trump sign that --