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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) Is Interviewed About Trump And Mamdani Meet In Friendly Oval Office Chat After Months Of Exchanging Verbal Attacks; Comey's Legal Team Blasts "Politically Motivated Prosecutions"; Rep. Riley Moore, (R-WV) Is Interviewed About U.S. Aircraft Carrier Arrives In Caribbean In Major Military Buildup Near Venezuela; Actor Ben McKenzie's Crypto Warnings In New Documentary; Vance: Told Bezos Breitbart's DC Bureau Chief Should Run WAPO; Miss Mexico Crowned Miss Universe In Scandal-Hit Pageant. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 21, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks very much to my panel for joining us today. Thanks very much to you at home for being there as well. Don't forget you can now stream The Arena live. Catch up whenever you want to in the CNN app. You scan the QR code below.

You can also catch up with our podcast. There's another QR code for that. We're on Instagram, we're or on X at the arenacnn. And I just put on my own X page for Jake Tapper who is -- your auction is ending in hours to support homes for wounded veterans.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes, that's right, Kasie. And there's a half hour Zoom call with you that I'm sure all your fans will want to bid on. Go to eBay.com/HFOT and let's see -- let's see how much money you can make. The bidding ends in like two and a half hours, Kasie.

HUNT: I love it. I was honored you asked me to volunteer my time for it.

TAPPER: All right, we'll see you back in "The Arena" next week.

HUNT: See you tomorrow.

[17:01:00]

TAPPER: Is Trump a fascist? Mr. Mamdani? Is Mamdani a jihadist, President Trump? The Lead starts right now.

Some blunt questions from reporters and some notable praise and deflection as two men at polar opposites of the American political spectrum apparently try to get past all that in a rather odd kumbaya that ended just moments ago. Plus, breaking news in the criminal case against former FBI director James Comey. Comey must respond this hour to this week's courtroom shocker, serious missteps by the Trump loyalist trying to prosecute the case. How is Comey going to respond? And walk outs, racist comments, claims of a rigged contest. Just some of the drama behind Miss Universe 2025 with the new winner at the center of much of it. Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start with the breaking news and our politics lead. And an extraordinary flabbergasting scene in the Oval Office today. While some may have expected tension or even fireworks in the first ever meeting between New York City's first ever Muslim mayor and the first president to ever have called for a ban on all Muslims entering the country, instead we got handshakes, pats on the back, niceties.

No, really, here's how the meeting between President Trump and New York City Mayor Elect Zohran Mamdani started.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's got views a little out there, but who knows? I mean, we're going to see what works or he's going to change also. We all change. I change a lot.

I think he is going to surprise some conservative people, actually.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR-ELECT: Appreciated the time with the President. I appreciated the conversation. I look forward to working together to deliver that affordability for New Yorkers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK, a nice start. But then it got even nicer. Trump actually defended Mamdani from several pointed questions from journalists, starting when Mamdani was asked about the fact that he had once called Trump a despot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I've been called much worse than a despot, so it's not it's not that insulting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist?

MAMDANI: I've spoken about --

TRUMP: That's OK. You can just say.

MAMDANI: OK. OK.

TRUMP: OK?

MAMDANI: Yes.

TRUMP: It's easier. It's easier than explaining it. I don't mind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you feel comfortable living in New York City under a Mamdani administration?

TRUMP: Yes, I would. I really would. Especially after the meeting. Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What makes you comfortable?

TRUMP: We agree on a lot more than I would have thought.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you fly here? Aren't trains greener?

MAMDANI: I'll use every form of transit, and I want to make sure that they're all affordable in New York City. And that's why making buses fast and free is a central piece of ours.

TRUMP: Did you --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where's the bus that is fast?

TRUMP: Well, but -- I know. But if you flew, that's a lot quicker, too. No, I mean, he's working very hard for him to be -- that's a long -- that's a very -- that's a very long drive. I'll stick up for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Republican Elise Stefanik has campaigned multiple times by calling Zohran Mamdani a jihadist. Do you think you're standing next to a jihadist right now in the Oval Office?

TRUMP: No, I don't. I met with a man who's a very rational person. I think you really have a chance to make it great.

MAMDANI: I appreciate that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, you said you love --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: All right, so that happened. But up until now, each politician had used the other as a lightning rod, a foil of an example of everything wrong with the other side. President Trump even falsely suggested that perhaps Mamdani was in the country illegally. Mamdani is a naturalized U.S. Citizen. He moved from Uganda to New York City at age seven.

From at one point, threatened to pull federal funding for projects in New York City. Today, Trump said it's all about doing whatever is best for his beloved city of New York. In fact, both leaders, of course, have talked about high prices or affordability as a key feature of their respective campaigns, and even though they do differ, of course, on how to make things more affordable, it does seem that is where some common ground was found today. Let's go to CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.

[17:05:17]

And Kristen, I don't think I've ever seen President Trump be that nice to another politician, ever.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, I've heard all these hot takes on how both of them were just being diplomatic. President Trump doesn't feel like he has to be diplomatic. Months ago, he brought in the leader of South Africa and essentially ambushed him with videos. This is not a man who believes that he has to act a certain way in the presence of others.

I can't speak for Mamdani, but President Trump seemed charmed by him. He seemed almost starstruck at points. There was one point when he was talking about how it was a really big deal to be the mayor of New York and that he had at one point thought he maybe he would run and be the mayor of New York. He said he was cheering him on.

And all this talk about cutting off New York's funding, that seems to be in the distant past. President Trump saying over and over again that he wanted him to succeed, that he wanted to do what was best, as you said, for the city. And what you saw from Mamdani was a lot of focus on things that they agreed on, which were affordability. Both of them ran their campaigns and likely won those campaigns on the topic of the economy and affordability, they talked about housing.

But at one point President Trump actually said, now again, this is after months of saying that New York is going down the drain, that if Mamdani becomes the mayor, the entire city will be destroyed because he is a communist. He said that he might like living in New York with Mamdani as the mayor, that he felt comfortable with that idea after having this sit down meeting with him. And it definitely goes against what we've seen from Republicans, not just President Trump, of this idea that Mamdani is kind of the boogeyman, linking all Democrats to his further left viewpoint. Now you have President Trump saying, well, maybe he's not that bad. Some of these viewpoints, they are pretty accessible in some ways.

It was quite striking to see. Now, one thing I want to point out, when we see these various meetings where President Trump brings the press in to talk and meet with them, they're usually at the top of the meeting at the very beginning. It was clear that the White House was waiting to see how this actually played out, because they did this time, brought the cameras and the reporters at the very end. And of course, all we heard was a lot of praise.

TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes, fascinating stuff. Thanks so much.

Let's discuss this all with Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts.

Senator Warren, were you surprised by this rather cordial, graceful tone we witnessed between two men that are certainly up for a fight with the other side if need be?

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): You know, I listened to this and I thought, boy, there was a through line here. And that is affordability, as you rightly said, a year ago, Donald Trump had just finished his presidential campaign saying almost every day that he would lower costs for American families on day one. Zohran Mamdani came from a very not a well-developed political background and focused in on affordability, affordability, affordability and brought in volunteers, brought in people who knocked on doors. They loved his ideas. They're behind him.

They want to see him succeed in making New York City more affordable. What I saw there is that Donald Trump is trying to get back into the affordability issues because Trump has a real problem. And that is here we are a year in and that promise that Trump made on day one to lower costs just hasn't happened. The cost of groceries is up, the cost of utilities is up, the cost of housing is up, and right now, the Republicans are driving the cost of health care through the roof. So I really saw this as how central affordability has become to the public conversation in America right now. And it should. People need prices down.

TAPPER: The other thing that was interesting was President Trump bringing up what I guess Mayor-elect Mamdani had told him in the private meeting, which was that one out of 10 Trump voters in New York had voted for Mamdani. And President Trump also said something along the lines of how he and Bernie Sanders agree on much more than what people think. There is this populist link, and you can disagree with the proposals to solve the issues, but there was an overlap in 2016, as remember people that voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary and then voted for Donald Trump in the general.

[17:10:01]

WARREN: Right. But recall, one of the specific things they talked about in this meeting is the cost of housing. We have a housing bill called Road to Housing that has passed the Senate unanimously. It's now hung up over in the House, and we're trying to get it across the finish line so that it could become law this year. And it's all about many different ways to help build more housing in New York City, in cities across the country, but also in rural areas.

It's about stimulating more housing and getting more housing built everywhere in this country. It's got support from Republicans and Democrats. And I just got to say, I sure hope the House of Representatives listened to President Trump today when he said he wanted to see more housing built in this country. We've got the bill ready for him to sign if we can get it on through the House.

TAPPER: Well, what's the problem in the House? What's the hold up there if it passed the Senate unanimously?

WARREN: You know, that's the question. It's not substantive, so far as I know. It is time to get this thing across the finish line in the House. But there are a couple of people that seem to be raising some concerns. We need to push this on through.

But you know, this is what happens over and over, Jake. People look out and they see we need to reduce the cost of utilities. But every time we start to act, someone's got an objection. So what Mamdani has done, and I think he's shown just terrific leadership on this, is he hasn't just talked generally about lowering costs. What he's done is he said, here are specific things I'm going to do.

He said, I'm going to reach out there on housing. I'm going to take at least the places that already are subject to rent control, and I'm going to extend that to try to help some families. I'm going to move into getting more housing built. He said, here's what I'm going to do on child care. Here is my plan.

Here's what I'm going to do on groceries. Here's what I'm going to do on transportation. And that kind of specific proposal shows both that he understands what's not working and he's really committed to making those kind of changes. And I have to say I admire anyone who shows up at the White House and says, I'm here to talk about costs for American families. I will work with anyone.

I will make this happen. And he came out of the meeting with Trump having said, he would call Con Ed to try to lower the cost --

TAPPER: Right.

WARREN: -- of utilities for New Yorkers. Wow. Tell me, how many mayor- elects actually may get costs reduced for families before they ever get sworn in? I thought Mamdani showed real leadership and real poise to push on through with this.

TAPPER: How do you square the circle the fact that this president who just was incredibly gracious and kind to Mayor-elect Mamdani, who, just to be frank here, barely won as the Democratic nominee. I mean, he beat his -- I shouldn't say barely won. He barely got 50 percent of the vote. Even though it's an overwhelming Democratic.

WARREN: Yes. Come on, he --

TAPPER: Yes. He --

WARREN: -- he beat his opponents by --

TAPPER: -- he overwhelmingly won.

WARREN: -- by large margins.

TAPPER: He overwhelmingly won.

WARREN: Yes.

TAPPER: I miss -- I misspoke.

WARREN: Yes.

TAPPER: But he barely got 50 percent of the vote. But here's President Trump. The question I want to ask is about Trump, not Mamdani, which is President Trump --

WARREN: Sure.

TAPPER: -- just in the last 24 hours was suggesting the execution of six of your colleagues for just simply saying members of the military shouldn't carry out illegal orders. He got mad at reporters for asking about MBS having ordered the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, a Washington Post columnist. Criticized Khashoggi. Said to a woman reporter just a few days before that, quiet piggy.

As a senator that has to deal with this president one way or another, how do you -- how do you make sense of that, that that same guy was this very gracious host laser like, focused on affordability? WARREN: Well, you hit the last part and it's laser like, focused on

affordability. Donald Trump has a terrible problem with affordability. He promised he was going to reduce prices on day one. Prices are up across the board. He is in trouble.

His poll numbers are dropping. People's confidence in his ability to handle the economy is dropping. His tariffs are imposing more costs on more people. His energy policy is raising the cost of utilities across the country. He has a problem.

And Zohran Mamdani, is the person who is now associated with fixing that problem.

TAPPER: Interesting.

WARREN: So, is it any surprise that Donald Trump wants to stand next to Zohran Mamdani and say, oh, yes, we think about things the same way.

[17:15:05]

TAPPER: Interesting.

WARREN: Particularly when it comes to affordability. He's just trying to take a little of the shine that Zohran Mamdani has and see if he can, you know, rub a little on Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Yes, embracing the avatar of affordability. Interesting.

Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts --

WARREN: Yes.

TAPPER: -- thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Breaking news just minutes ago, the deadline passed for James Comey. How will the former FBI director respond to the stunning admission earlier this week from the Trump loyalist prosecuting this criminal case? And later, actor Ben McKenzie on The Lead. What he wants you to know about crypto as so many people are looking to that digital currency to get rich quick.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you in our law and justice lead. At the top of this hour, 5:00 Eastern, we passed the deadline for former FBI Director James Comey's legal team to respond to this week's big surprise in the case against him. On Wednesday, there was stunned silence in the courtroom when interim U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan, a Trump loyalist, revealed that she had not followed the correct procedures when she indicted Comey in September, seemingly on orders from President Trump. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is watching the developments.

[17:20:09]

Katelyn, what did Comey's legal team have to say?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, they are ready to tear down this house if it is indeed built on sand by the prosecution. What they are asking for just now of the judge in this case, Judge Michael Nachmanoff, is they are saying you should dismiss this whole thing on every single thing that we have learned so far over the course of this week that the prosecutors have done. Lindsey Halligan with the final indictment not getting it approved, Donald Trump giving the direction. We heard those arguments on Wednesday. They say there's other issues with what was said to the grand jury.

The evidence that was shown, all of it should be taken together by the judge and he should make a decision. They are asking for a decision by as early as Monday. They want to get things going.

I want to read the final -- sort of the final blow that Comey's team is trying to land here against the case, against the prosecution. They asked the judge to dismiss this with prejudice and say that strong remedy will also send a signal to the president and the Department of Justice that the current pattern of politically motivated prosecutions violates bedrock American constitutional principles. The judiciary is a vital bulwark against this administration's intolerable abuse of executive power, it should fulfill that role. They're saying do something now, do something not just for James Comey, but do something to uphold the Constitution and tell Donald Trump, don't prosecute your political enemies or do it this way.

TAPPER: Yes, the list of allegations they make about Lindsey Galligan's -- Halligan's case is just a comedy of errors in terms of all the mistakes she made. Where does the case go now?

POLANTZ: Yes, there are a bunch of different things that the judge can take altogether as Comey's team wants or can be taken one by one. The thing that is really on the table right now, not just this new request to dismiss the case because of the revelations on Wednesday, there is something on the table where the defense says, actually, we would really like to get access to the full grand jury transcript still. We'll update you if we have more arguments to make there. But please still give us that transcript so that could help deliver them on some of these things.

The other thing is heading into Thanksgiving. They do want Judge Nachmanoff to say something. They also are awaiting something from Judge Currie, Judge Cameron Currie, who heard arguments last week about Lindsey Halligan having authority to prosecute this case in that district? Was she rightfully appointed? Did she have the authority to go to the grand jury not just to bring a case against Comey, but also against Letitia James?

We're waiting for that ruling too.

TAPPER: Right. Because you can only have one acting U.S. attorney and she is the second acting U.S. attorney.

All right, Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much. The new step today by a Democrat trying to stop President Trump from taking any military action in Venezuela without first getting approval from Congress. I'm going to ask a Republican lawmaker if he is willing to go along with any congressional pushback on any potential rush to war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:27:10]

TAPPER: Topping our world lead today, President Trump says he has made a decision on potential military operations against Venezuela as the Pentagon beefs up its presence in the region. Now an outspoken Democratic congressman is taking steps to try to stop the Commander in Chief from unilaterally taking any military action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): We are introducing legislation to prohibit the administration from spending a single dollar to send U.S. troops into direct hostilities with Venezuela unless Congress specifically authorizes it. The Constitution is not ambiguous here. Congress decides when this country goes to war, not the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's talk about this with Republican Congressman Riley Moore of West Virginia.

Congressman, thanks for joining us. Do you agree with Congressman Moulton that the president should at least seek authorization from Congress before engaging in a military campaign against Venezuela?

REP. RILEY MOORE (R-WV): Well, I've not heard the president say anything about putting troops on the ground in Venezuela, but I know one thing that's clear is that it's the amount of drugs that are coming through Venezuela.

The amount of drugs, fentanyl, enough to kill the entire state of West Virginia on these drug boats that are coming are an absolute problem. And I know my constituents here certainly support the president's actions that he's been taking in the Caribbean to blow these boats up and prevent those drugs from coming into our country, which have been so detrimental to a state like West Virginia, where you've had this massive opioid crisis.

Now, ultimately, how the president is going to continue to combat that is going to be left to him as the commander in chief of this country. I've not heard him say anything about deploying troops into Venezuela.

TAPPER: Well, he has talked about striking -- possibly striking land in Venezuela within the country. But you said something about fentanyl coming from Venezuela. Have you -- I mean, I know that fentanyl is coming in, the raw materials from China then they go to Mexico and other places. I have not heard about fentanyl coming in from Venezuela. Experts say that these boats, if they are all drug boats, are likely carrying cocaine, not fentanyl.

Has the Trump administration showed you any evidence otherwise?

MOORE: No. From what I've been able to read on this is -- and you're right, cocaine is absolutely part of that. But you know, these folks are generally kind of diversified in their business. And you're right, the precursor drugs do come from China. Sometimes they come in through Mexico and into the United States, other times, obviously, because cocaine is coming from Colombia up through Venezuela and into the United States. But all of these drug organizations are all coordinated with each other. I mean, it only takes a tiny little bit of fentanyl to kill anybody.

[17:30:00]

So in -- in all that to be said, to me, I think this makes a lot of sense from stemming the flow of drugs into the country. And if there's cartel members that are operating in Venezuela that are threatening the lives of Americans, I think the President should certainly look at that.

TAPPER: I know the issue of what's going on in Nigeria is very important to you, a lot of attacks on Christians, many of them fatal by Islamist organizations. Nigerian officials are meeting with the Pentagon and with the State Department this week amid Trump's threats to take military action to stop the violence against Christians in Nigeria. Earlier today, a group of armed bandits, likely Islamists, invaded this private Catholic school there where they abducted an unknown number of students.

What would you, beyond just the violence ending, what would you like to see happen with Nigeria? How would you like to see the violence brought to an end?

MOORE: Well, that same delegation that met with the Pentagon, I met with as well. This high level delegation led by their national security advisor. And the Trump administration has tasked me to lead this investigation in Congress on the Nigeria issue, the genocide, in my view, that's happening there.

What I said to that delegation, what I've continually said here is, look, there's an actual opportunity for Nigeria to strengthen and broaden and deepen their relationship with the United States where we can try to attack this together in coordination and cooperation with our two nations. There's an opportunity here to strengthen those ties.

Obviously, President Tinubu and the government there, they don't want ISIS and Boko Haram establishing a caliphate in their country. The attack that you just mentioned is this Fulani militant group that is operating in the -- in the middle band of the country, this Islamic terrorist militants. Now, that's where a lot of the violence against Christians, the case that you just mentioned right now, is happening.

So one of the things that I discussed with them, I mentioned at the House Foreign Affairs Committee actually this week, the hearing that we had on this issue, is can we work on disarming the Fulani militant bands that are just roving around the country? It's actually illegal for anybody to own a firearm in Nigeria, yet these folks are attacking with impunity these Christians in the middle band of the country and just wiping them out.

TAPPER: Yes. Congressman Riley Moore of West Virginia, thank you so much, good to see you again.

As people look for ways to make fast money, the warning about cryptocurrency coming from Hollywood and why one actor wants you to listen up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:36:52]

BEN MCKENZIE, WRITER AND DIRECTOR, "EVERYONE IS LYING TO YOU FOR MONEY": In my opinion, the cryptocurrency industry represents the largest Ponzi scheme in history. The fact that it has roped in tens of millions of Americans from all walks of life, as well as hundreds of millions of people worldwide, should be of concern to us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In our Money Lead today, that's actor Ben McKenzie from the hit T.V. shows, "The O.C." and "Gotham" and "Southland." That's him warning U.S. senators back in 2022 about the dangers of cryptocurrencies. And now he's spreading that message in a new documentary called "Everyone is Lying to You for Money." It just had its New York premiere last weekend.

And here now, actor, director, producer, Ben McKenzie. Ben, congratulations on the film. You obviously started speaking out about and against crypto during the pandemic. You wrote a "New York Times" bestseller called "Easy Money." Now you're making this case in documentary form. Why is this issue so important to you?

MCKENZIE: It's so important to me because I think the stakes are high. Crypto really only has two use cases, gambling and crime. And the gambling is one thing, but the crime is very, very serious. To give you an example, in the most recent Epstein e-mails, we learned that Jeffrey Epstein was funding Bitcoin development in 2015 via the MIT Media Lab.

So some of the worst people in the world are involved in this. And it's a very dangerous thing that we're playing with. As crypto creeps ever further into our regulated financial system, I worry that not only is it funding an enormous amount of crime, but that if it crashes as it does -- as it has done repeatedly over its brief but sordid history, if it collapses again, it could -- it could impact the rest of the financial, our entire financial system.

TAPPER: You spent three years filming this documentary. You traveled to New York, London, El Salvador. You spoke to victims of crypto fraud and celebrities. You interviewed Sam Bankman-Fried, who's in prison. He's appealing his 25-year prison sentence for fraud and conspiracy. Let's roll a little clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCKENZIE: How much have you donated to politicians?

SAM BANKMAN-FRIED: So I -- I don't remember the -- I can get back to you on that. I don't remember the latest figure. I'll put it on my record.

MCKENZIE: Oh, so you're like a round number?

BANKMAN-FRIED: Ballpark. I think --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sam, you really need to go/

BANKMAN-FRIED: OK, got it, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's one of the most surprising things you learned while making this film?

MCKENZIE: Just how much money the cryptocurrency industry has spent influencing our representatives, sadly, on both sides of the aisle. There was -- the answer to the question that he refused to give is $100 million. He was allegedly running a $100 million straw donor scheme, donating outwardly to the Democrats.

He was one of Biden's largest donors, but secretly through cutouts, his employees at FTX, he was donating to the Republicans. And unfortunately, the amount of money the cryptocurrency industry has thrown at politicians has only increased. It was $135 million in 2024.

[17:40:06]

TAPPER: Well, that's why there's no regulation of it, right? Cryptocurrency scams are costing Americans millions of dollars. Just last month, CNN reported that, "Americans, often retirees, lost around $240 million to trip crypto ATM scams in the first six months of this year." That's a lot of money for retirees, especially in crypto.

It's a very complicated issue, but we're hearing about it more and more each day. I was -- I was honored to see I made a cameo in a montage clip explaining what crypto is. I have to say, though, this is not like other documentaries because it's -- it's funny, it's enjoyable.

You even opened the film saying this is a film about cryptocurrency. It's pretty stupid. Did you intend this to be amusing at the same time it's so terrifying?

MCKENZIE: I just turned the camera on, and what I saw was hilarious slash terrifying. I mean, I'm sitting with supposedly the head of the entire industry, Sam Bankman-Fried. This is months before he was arrested for the crimes that you mentioned. And so he's supposedly, you know, king of the world, right? He's the boy genius kid from California whose parents are professors of law at Stanford who went to MIT and worked at Jane Street, the storied Wall Street firm.

And I'm asking Sam Bankman-Fried, I'm asking him, what does crypto do? Tell me one thing that it does. He struggled with that question. He struggled with the question, clearly, of how much money he'd given to politicians. I -- I went away worrying that this could potentially be even worse than I feared. And sure enough, five months later he -- everything fell apart. He was arrested and sentenced to 25 years in jail.

TAPPER: The documentary is called "Everyone is Lying to You for Money." The filmmaker is Ben McKenzie. Ben, great having you on the show. Thanks so much. Come back soon, please.

MCKENZIE: Thanks, Jake. I'd love that.

TAPPER: In the Pop Culture Lead, there is a little more than an hour left to join the celebrity auction that I'm co-hosting with George Clooney and Wynonna Judd. It benefits the group Homes for Our Troops, which builds specially adapted custom homes for severely wounded veterans.

Host George Clooney is putting up this custom Sammy Davis Jr. guitar that he signed. He'll sign it to the winner. Wynonna has an autographed Yamaha acoustic guitar. Other celebrity items include a Zoom call with Alyssa Milano, 2026 Green Monster Red Sox tickets, lunch for two with Henry Winkler, the nicest man in the world in California, plus some signed books. There are more than 100 items to bid on. I can't list them all.

The auction starts closing in about an hour or so, in about an hour. So go to ebay.com/HFOT, Homes for Our Troops. Check out the items. Again, it is all going to an amazing cause.

Up next tonight on the latest serious question that could signal a rather sizable political shift. Is Donald Trump a lame duck president? We'll debate that.

[17:43:01]

Plus, the advice of Vice President J.D. Vance has for Jeff Bezos, owner of the Washington Post. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Back in our Politics Lead, President Trump caved into reality this week in a major reversal on releasing the Epstein files. The President also got some bad numbers on one of his signature issues after a "Fox" poll found 46 percent of voters say the White House is doing more harm than good on the economy.

The political setbacks and public feuds with members of his own party have some asking if the President is losing his grip on the GOP. Here now is the panel. Jonah, here's what Republican Senator from North Dakota, Kevin Cramer, said about the President's grip, current grip on elected Republicans. Oh, he says, the closer you, I'm sorry, I thought it was a sound bite. The closer you get to the midterms and then beyond, everybody is measuring their own state or congressional district, and maybe people are a little more independent. You and, well, your colleagues at least at the round table today at your podcast debated whether or not Trump's a lame duck. Is he a lame duck?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there are two things, there are two phenomena going on that are mutually reinforcing but slightly different things. One is the pull of him being a lame duck, right? He's just, he's getting old. He has no interest in working with Congress. He got his One Big, Beautiful Bill. He doesn't have an agenda to work with Congress. And if you're not working with Congress, that's historically what a lame duck means.

The off-year elections were very bad for Republicans. So there's that feeling, but there's also this parallel crack up of the MAGA coalition, which can feel like part of this lame duck process. Marjorie Taylor Greene charting her own course, not afraid of the President, Republicans voting against him, him having to turn to support the Republican position rather than forcing a Republican position on the party. And those two things in conjunction make it feel like he's a little out of his depth right now.

TAPPER: Interesting. And meanwhile, the Vice President J.D. Vance is out there quite a bit. Gave some advice to Washington Post owner, Jeff Bezos, about who should run his newspaper's political coverage. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There was this big conversation in the Washington Post about what do we do to actually get in touch with the other half of America? How do we actually make our journalism more appealing to the half of the country that doesn't agree with far left politics? And I actually, I think I texted Jeff Bezos, and I said, if you're really serious about this, you should just hire Matt Boyle and make him run your entire political reporting shop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's a Breitbart factotum. What do you think of that?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Speaking of wanting somebody to be a lame duck, that guy would like somebody to be a lame duck. I'm just going to say it right here. And that's one of the many examples. I want to go back to what Jonah just said, because I think it ties the two together, is if the economy's going good, if prices actually were to come down, he'd have a lot more say. The more that gets out of whack, the more folks are going to want to distance himself to prepare for '28, but also to salvage '26. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.

[17:50:08] TAPPER: What do you make of J.D. Vance, first of all, appearing at a Breitbart event, but second of all, saying that he told Jeff Bezos to hire a Breitbart person as a editor, or political editor, or whatever?

GOLDBERG: Yes, I don't find it particularly shocking. J.D. Vance has a lot of things to say about the media when it reports things that he doesn't like to hear, and he likes to heap praise on media that is essentially loyal to him, so he was sucking up to his interviewer. Something I would never do with you.

TAPPER: On Wednesday, a group of anti-Israel protesters gathered outside an event promoting migration to Israel at a prominent New York City synagogue. The protesters reportedly chanted, Globalize the intifada. Resistance, you make us proud. Take another settler out. In a statement about this anti-Semitic demonstration, mayor-elect Mamdani's spokesperson wrote, "The mayor-elect had discouraged the language used at last night's protest and will continue to do so. He believes every New Yorker should be free to enter a house of worship without intimidation, and that these sacred spaces should not be used to promote activities in violation of international law."

A lot of people said, what? And then Mamdani's team said the last part was specifically in reference to the organization's promotion of settlement activity beyond the green line, which would violate international law. What was your reaction to that? I mean, I think a lot of Jewish -- he did not win the Jewish vote in New York, Mr. Mamdani, and I think a lot of Jewish Americans were chilled when he said that.

GOLDBERG: Yes, I think this is just one of many data points that show that he's going to have a very difficult job holding together the coalition that got him elected. There are a lot of people who voted on affordability, but there's a lot of passion around his perceived animosity towards Israel and towards Jews. His views, you know, on -- on law and order were seen by the left to be the correct ones, and it turns out that governing is a lot harder, and there are a lot of other considerations involved, and we'll see if he's up to it.

ROCHA: He spoke to this today in the White House when he said every Jew in every borough of New York in front of the cameras in front of Trump, and then at the end of there, after he said that, and he really was out front about saying, look, we're going to protect all the Jewish people of New York, and then he backed up, and Trump turns and goes, that was really good, that was a good answer. Like he was proud of it.

TAPPER: One other very interesting thing that happened in the Senate, Senator Lindsey Graham blocked this attempt by the House to repeal this provision that was in the government funding bill that uniquely benefits Lindsey Graham and other senators investigating after the January 6th Capitol riots. Graham, among those whose phone records were sought by Special Counsel Jack Smith, Graham said this yesterday on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I'm going to sue, I want to let you know. I'm going to sue Biden's DOJ and Jack Smith. I'm going to sue Verizon. It's going to be a hell of a lot more than $500,000. And the crime is being friends of Trump, being supporters of Trump. This was an abuse of the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The entire House wanted that provision removed and Lindsey Graham wouldn't let it be removed.

ROCHA: Yes, it's the politics we've seen. It was interesting that we've seen the Senate and the House leadership get along, which normally doesn't happen. Almost too good, this was when it starts falling out right now because the House didn't want to do this at all, to your point.

TAPPER: They're suing because they were investigated.

ROCHA: Right. Yes.

TAPPER: Not that they were charged.

GOLDBERG: I think it is a scheme for one level of enrichment for senators and it's totally bogus. On the other hand, I think Lindsey Graham thinks that if he's suing over this, it's a great way to get more T.V. time and it's a great thing to campaign on.

TAPPER: Thanks to both of you.

[17:53:36]

From a woman berated, a judge called a racist, even a contestant falling off the stage, the pageant drama became full circle for the new Miss Universe. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our world lead, Fatima Bosch of Mexico has been crowned Miss Universe 2025 after one of the most controversial pageants in years. What started with a walkout mid-competition led to racist, anti-Asian remarks by a former winner, judges stepping down over allegations of rigged votes, and even more drama, a contestant falling off the stage during a preliminary round. Poor Miss Jamaica. She went to the hospital. She is OK.

CNN's Christina Macfarlane looks now at the dazzling highs and dizzying lows of this year's biggest beauty pageant.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A crowning moment in Bangkok as Mexico's Fatima Bosch was named Miss Universe 2025 in a competition overshadowed by scandal. Speaking to reporters after her victory, Bosch says she wasn't afraid to be herself. FATIMA BOSCH, MISS UNIVERSE 2025: And I would like them to remember me like a person that changed a little bit the prototype of what is a Miss Universe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mexico, where are you?

MACFARLANE (voice-over): The 25-year-old was publicly scolded by the Thai pageant director, Nawat Itsaragrisil, during a live-streamed pre- pageant meeting earlier this month, accusing her of not posting enough content to promote the host country, Thailand.

BOSCH: You are not respecting me as a woman.

MACFARLANE (voice-over): When Bosch pushed back now at threatened to call security and to disqualify anyone supporting her. Then came this, a mass walkout of contestants in solidarity with Miss Mexico. The confrontation went viral, sparking global support for Bosch, including Mexico's President Claudia Sheinbaum.

PRES. CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM, MEXICO: Women look more beautiful when we raise our voices and participate. Nawat later apologized in a live streamed welcome ceremony and declined to further comment on the incident to CNN.

NAWAT ITSARAGRISIL, PAGEANT DIRECTOR: I have not intended to harm anyone.

MACFARLANE (voice-over): The Miss Universe president distanced the organization from Nawat's behavior, limiting his role in future events. But the scandals didn't stop there. Former Miss Universe winner Alicia Machado was accused of making racist comments against Nawat over the incident. Machado did not respond to CNN's request for comment.

[18:00:15]

Then, days before the final two judges abruptly stepped down, one judge was composer Omar Harfouch. He claimed the contest was rigged, saying that finalists were pre-selected, but claimed the organization denied.

Finally, on Thursday night, the Miss Universe crown was awarded to Miss Mexico. And for fans in Bosch's hometown of Villahermosa, the win is all that mattered.

Christina Macfarlane, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)