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The Lead with Jake Tapper

National Guard Shooting Suspect To Face Murder Charges; Trump Vows To Permanently Pause Migration From Some Countries After DC Attack; Zelenskyy's Top Aide Quits After Anti-Corruption Searches Of His Home; Consumer Facing Tariffs, Inflation This Holiday Season; Trump Ramps Up Immigration Restrictions After Natl. Guard Attack; Emotional Toll Of Migrant Arrest At U.S. Courthouses. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 28, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:05:08]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks so much to my panel. You can now stream The Arena Live or catch up wherever you want in the CNN app and just scan the QR code below. You can also catch up by listening to The Arena's podcast. Boris Sanchez is standing by for the lead right now. Boris, take it away.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thank you so much, Manu. We'll look for more next week in The Arena.

President Trump escalating his already aggressive immigration crackdown. The Lead starts right now.

In the wake of that deadly National Guard ambush, the president is ordering an even closer look at immigrants legally in the United States and those waiting to get in. What we know about the new orders.

Plus, CNN in West Virginia hearing from those closest to the victims. What a man who dated the Guard member killed told CNN about a heartbreaking loss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hard to grasp. She won't be back and won't see you around anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: And the holiday rush officially on. But in the age of shopping online, is Black Friday still a thing?

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Boris Sanchez in for Jake Tapper. We start with our National Lead and new details about Wednesday's deadly ambush targeting National Guard members in Washington, DC.

Today, the U.S. attorney for D.C. revealing new charges against the suspect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANINE PIRRO, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR WASHINGTON D.C.: There are certainly many more charges to come, but we are upgrading the initial charges of assault to murder in the first degree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The victims are two National Guard troops from West Virginia, 20-year-old Army Specialist Sarah Beckstrom who died yesterday and 24- year-old US Air Force Staff Sergeant Andrew Wolfe who remains in critical condition.

The suspect is Rahmanullah Lakanwal, a 29-year-old Afghan national who worked for the U.S. government in Afghanistan during the war. He came into the U.S. in 2021 under a Biden era program created after the U.S. military withdrawal from Afghanistan. And the Trump administration approved his asylum application in April of this year.

Now the administration says the suspect's vetting was insufficient as President Trump escalates his immigration crackdown, announcing that he would, quote, permanently pause migration from all third world countries, vowing to, quote, deport any foreign national who is a public charge, security risk or non-compatible with Western civilization.

The president also ordering the reexamination of all green cards issued to people from 19 countries that the Trump administration deems areas of concern. We'll take a look at who might be impacted by these new immigration policies. But first, more on those two guard members. CNN's Gabe Cohen traveled to their hometowns in West Virginia.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What's it like being back here?

ADAM CARR, FORMER BOYFRIEND OF U.S. ARMY SPEC. SARAH BECKSTROM: I didn't come here much without her, so I was always here with her. So it's just that missing piece.

COHEN: This is a place that Sarah Backstrom loved. Salmon Run near Summersville, West Virginia, where she lived. She'd come here to swim and to fish. It was her happy place.

COHEN (voice-over): Adam Carr tells me he dated Sarah Beckstrom for nearly six years. They split just a month ago.

CARR: I kind of just can't wrap my head around it at all. Seeing her picture everywhere, just hearing the whole that she's gone, kind of unbelievable.

COHEN (voice-over): The 20-year-old U.S. army specialist, one of two National Guard members ambushed Wednesday. She joined the guard back in 2023 and had been deployed in D.C. since August.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Sarah Beckstrom of West Virginia, outstanding in every way. COHEN (voice-over): Her father writing on Facebook. My baby girl has

passed to glory. This has been a horrible tragedy.

COHEN: Tell me about her.

CARR: She was super kind hearted, super sweet, one of the best people around that you could meet. She'd do anything for you and didn't even have to know you.

COHEN (voice-over): Carr says Beckstrom eventually wanted to work for the FBI.

COHEN: How did she feel about being deployed to DC?

CARR: Hated it. Absolutely hated it. She was crying before she left. She dreaded it. She did not want to go. The more she was there, the more she warmed up to it and she actually volunteered for a longer time. She definitely knows she was making a difference for the right cause and she's one of the biggest hearted people out there and I'm glad most of our time was together.

COHEN (voice-over): Beckstrom grew up in Webster Springs, West Virginia and worked here at the Custard stand in high school.

ALYSSA CLAYTON, WEBSTER SPRINGS RESIDENT: I think she'll be remembered as the hero.

COHEN (voice-over): Alyssa Clayton's parents own this restaurant.

CLAYTON: It's just hard because it's hard to lose somebody from here that wanted to leave this community and be successful and do something for our country and for our community.

COHEN (voice-over): This small town held a vigil Thursday night. Across the state, another community is reeling as 24-year-old Staff Sergeant Andrew Wolfe remains in the hospital.

[17:05:01]

His father telling me Thursday, just pray for my son. He's a fighter, a Guardsman since 2019. Wolfe is part of the 167th Airlift Wing near his hometown of Martinsburg, West Virginia.

MICHAEL LANGONE, SGT. ANDREW WOLFE'S NEIGHBOR: Just really good guy. We always looked out for each other. Best neighbor you could ask for, really. I just hope that the right thing happens for him and he comes back.

TINA GESFORD, SGT. ANDREW WOLFE'S NEIGHBOR: God bless his family and all of them. So hope everything turns out good.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: And Boris, this weekend there are more vigils planned for Sarah Beckstrom here in Webster Springs. And I can tell you, having spent so much time over the past couple days in these communities across West Virginia, there are still so many people dealing with shock and grief trying to process this tragedy. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, no doubt our thoughts are with those two guard members families. Gabe Cohen in West Virginia for us. Thank you so much.

Let's turn to CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes now. She's live in West Palm Beach, Florida, traveling with the president. Kristen, in the wake of the shooting the president is ramping up his crackdown on immigration.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, and that's not that surprising. I mean, President Trump, this is an issue that he has really pushed. And now with this shooting, he is going to be ramping up this crackdown. So here's what we know, and I know that we still don't know all the details.

Just to be clear, this is how they are reacting. We know that he is working to permanently pause some immigration. We also know that they are looking into deporting the suspect's family. They are reexamining green cards issued to 19 countries that they say are of quote, unquote concern. And we'll get to that one second. And they are reviewing all asylum cases approved under the Biden administration.

I think we have a map here of these 19 countries. And you can see on the map it includes countries in Africa as well as the Middle East. Afghanistan, of course, is there, Somalia, Syria, among others.

So this is how they have started this process. But I will tell you, I am hearing from a lot of sources inside the administration who said that they are looking at other ways to crack down on immigration, even though it's not quite clear what that's going to look like yet.

SANCHEZ: And Kristen, notably earlier today, the president said that he's going to cancel many of former President Biden's executive orders. Tell us about that.

HOLMES: Yes. So before we get there, I just want to say one thing. This is my caveat on all of this. We have no idea the legality of what exactly this is we also don't know what he means by this. So, for example, in this post, I think we can pull it up for you here he talks about the auto pen. This is all related to the autopilot saying that anything Biden signed using the auto pen, he is overturning.

But there he also says 92 percent of the things that Biden puts into effect while in office were used or were done by the auto pen. We don't know where they got that number from. So that's a question. We've also reached out to figure out if there's something in particular that he's talking about overturning or if this is just a blanket statement here. And again, the legality.

One line I will point you to in there, it says, I am hereby canceling all executive orders and anything else that was not directly signed by crooked Joe Biden because the people who operated the auto pan did so illegally. Then he goes on to say that if Joe Biden, President Biden fights this, saying if Biden tries to say that there wasn't other people using the auto pen, that it was all him, that he will then get charged with perjury. The reason why this is so complicated is the fact that Joe Biden has

already denied there were any issues with him using the auto pen, saying he was aware of everything that he did while he was in office and that he approved everything that was signed by the auto patent.

And of course, we should note that presidents for years and years have used an auto pan. And but this has been something that President Trump has become almost fixated on. He changed the presidential wall of fame to not have a picture of Joe Biden but instead have an auto pen. And he has said privately he believes it's one of the greatest scandals that's going to unfold in the country. So it's clearly something he is very focused on.

SANCHEZ: Kristen Holmes live for us in West Palm Beach. Thank you so much, Kristen. As you heard, there are a lot of questions about the legality of this. Namely, does President Trump actually have the authority to cancel anything President Biden signed via auto pen? We'll get some legal perspective next.

Plus, when a nasty winter storm could cause a hot travel mess, especially for so many starting to head back home after the Thanksgiving holiday. Stay with us.

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[17:13:25]

SANCHEZ: Back now with our National Lead and so many questions. More than 48 hours now since the targeted attack on two National Guard members just blocks from the White House. The suspect facing a murder charge now after one of the two troops died.

I want to bring in Greg Bauer -- Brower, I should say. He's a former FBI assistant director for the Office of Congressional Affairs. Greg, first and foremost, you know, our condolences are with the family of that guardsman who passed away, and we hope for the recovery of the one who's still in the hospital.

I do want to focus on the investigation now because we have a suspect, but a motive has yet to emerge publicly.

GREG BROWER, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI OFFICE OF CONGRESSIONAL AFFAIRS: Right.

SANCHEZ: How do officials go about determining why someone would drive across the entire country to do something like this?

BROWER: Well, we see some evidence of that already, Boris, with respect to search warrants having been executed for his place of residence in other places, authorities will be scouring his media, social media presence, if he has one, talking to friends, neighbors, associates of all types going way back in time, trying to assemble any sort of evidence that would suggest a motivation here, a reason for doing something like this.

Sometimes such investigations, no matter how thorough, don't really ever result in the clear identification of a motive. Sometimes they do. So we'll just have to wait and see.

SANCHEZ: I want to ask you about the vetting process because the administration is making the case that the suspect was not thoroughly vetted enough. But some of that, I think, is potentially negated by the fact that he was allowed to work with the United States with a very important group tied to the CIA in Afghanistan. Then he was let into the country in 2021, and the Trump administration granted him asylum. So that, I imagine, takes a fair amount of process. Right?

[17:15:07]

BROWER: There would appear, as you point out, to have been three different vetting points, if you will. As you mentioned, the first time when he actually was signed up to work with American forces in Afghanistan, and then later when he entered the country and was granted asylum.

So the exact details of how those vetting processes worked each time is unclear to us publicly at this point. But it wasn't like this guy was never vetted by U.S. authorities. Apparently he was. The devil will be in the details.

SANCHEZ: Does that indicate to you that perhaps something changed in the last few years since, or even in the last few months with him that would lead him to do something like that?

BROWER: Could be the case. Assuming that there wasn't something that was missed during the various vetting processes, it would appear that something happened with this guy that caused him to basically become, you know, deranged in a way that resulted in this tragedy. But we simply don't know at this point.

SANCHEZ: Greg, I also want to ask you about what the president posted on Truth Social today, saying that he's canceling many Biden executive orders signed by an auto pen. Is that legal?

BROWER: Well, the president, of course, like any president, can effectively cancel prior executive actions in the form of executive orders, for sure. The fact, though, that it's because they were signed by auto pen doesn't seem to be in line with the prevailing legal opinion.

Long story short, back in 2005, then Bush Justice Department issued an opinion essentially saying that bills, legislative bills, could be signed by a president with -- by auto pen as long as the President had evinced an intent to sign the bill. Didn't matter who signed it or what machine signed it. Whether this would apply to executive orders, whether it applied to pardons and other things, not exactly clear from the face of the opinion, but it looks as though DOJ's opinion has been that the auto pen is OK. It is sufficient. But again, this president can undo the last President's executive orders as he sees fit.

SANCHEZ: But pardons are another matter, right? I mean, that's the purview of the executive.

BROWER: That's right. Less clear that a pardon or a commutation of one's sentence can be undone in any way, that there's no precedent for that at all.

SANCHEZ: Greg Brower, thank you so much for the perspective and for being here the day after Thanksgiving. Thanks.

BROWER: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still plenty more news to come. Major news in Ukraine today, President Zelenskyy's right hand man just quit resigning after anti- corruption investigators raid his home. What this could mean for the country's push for peace as Putin insists that Russia requires more land.

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[17:22:07]

SANCHEZ: A shocker in our World Lead today. The top aide to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has just quit. Andrey Yermak, Zelenskyy's chief of staff, Ukraine's second most powerful man. Remember, we saw him just 10 days ago, right next to U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio trying to broker this peace deal to end Russia's war.

Yermak's resignation came just hours after a raid at his home. For what exactly? That remains unclear. But two anti-corruption groups in Ukraine both confirmed involvement in the search. I want to bring in a unique voice on all of this. Ilya Ponomarev joins us now. He's a former Russian politician turned critic of the Kremlin.

Ilya, thank you so much for being with us. How big a deal is this resignation?

ILYA PONOMAREV, FORMER RUSSIAN LAWMAKER: It's a big deal because you said that your mark was number two in Ukraine. Many people joke he was not yet the first, but definitely already not the second.

SANCHEZ: Interesting. And you mentioned as were in the commercial break that a lot of people were waiting for this, is there's a sense of -- is there a sense that he's somehow implicated in some form of corruption?

PONOMAREV: You know, I don't think so and I don't think that anti- corruption police has any particular evidence. But right now it's virtually a consensus in the Ukrainian elites that Zelenskyy needs some change. He needs to revive his team, he needs to reset it, he needs to bring new people and many closest allies of Zelenskyy who are advocating to change Yermak.

SANCHEZ: Do you think that any of this has an impact on the negotiations on how Zelenskyy views a peace deal?

PONOMAREV: No, definitely at all because Yermak originally he was a foreign policy adviser to Zelenskyy and then he was promoted to his chief of staff. He was the closest confidant of Ukrainian president and obviously he was the mastermind in terms of all foreign policies. And right now whoever would be coming, that means that the way negotiations go would change.

SANCHEZ: I also want to get your thoughts on another scandal on the sidelines here. And that is the transcript of a call leaked to Bloomberg between Donald Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff and a top Putin adviser. In that call, Witkoff appears to repeatedly offer advice to the Russians, notably at one point saying, quote, now me to you, I know what it's going to take to get a peace deal done. Donetsk and maybe a land swap somewhere.

So that call was about two weeks ago. I wonder if you have any thoughts on who potentially leaked this conversation.

PONOMAREV: Well, I think that you should search for somebody in the United States.

SANCHEZ: Really.

PONOMAREV: I think that Mr. Witkoff has right now a lot of enemies in the White House and the inner circle of President Trump. And I would look into that direction. Obviously there are some people in Russia who may say that we don't want peace. We want this war to know. So let's disclose the plans. But no, I don't think that they would dare to risk that much in front of their own president.

[17:25:00]

SANCHEZ: What do you make of Witkoff saying that a land swap is necessary, that he knows the obvious path is to give up for Ukraine to give up a portion of Donetsk?

PONOMAREV: You know, I think that for Vladimir Putin he needs to claim some victory. For him, victory without control over at least something it's not possible. You know, just the frozen conflict along the current front lines would demonstrate to Russians primarily that he was unable to conquer nothing, even Donbas, which was from the very beginning the source of this conflict.

So he needs to claim Donetsk. But the Ukrainians would never agree to this. So when they are talking about the swap, there was something that was discussed from the very beginning to change the remainder of Donetsk region to occupied parts of the Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. And that was something that Witkoff is advocating.

And that's basically the only deal which theoretically can fly with Ukrainians. And that's the big deal that President Trump so much fan of.

SANCHEZ: I wonder, Ilya, if you see the conversations that are happening now this 28 to then 19-point plan as different from what we've seen over the last few months because there have been all manner of talks. There was a summit in Alaska, there was the promise that there was going to be a summit in Budapest. And so far it's a lot of the same. Do you see this as different though?

PONOMAREV: I think it's just one of the steps. You know, I think that Putin is bargaining. I think that Putin wants to reach up something because he understands that in the military way he cannot conquer Donetsk region. So the only way how he can get it is through diplomacy.

But he wants Ukraine to pay the high price and he wants to achieve as much as possible. And he thinks that time is on his side because the war fatigue is spreading in the world and Ukrainians are tired and finances are running out and the United States doesn't want to help financially. That's why Putin thinks that the longer he drags the time, the better conditions he would get at the end.

SANCHEZ: So you disagree with the assessment that if the United States were to look at the map and say that in a year or two years the land that has been proposed that Ukraine would have to give up, that's currently under Ukrainian control, they would lose anyway. You disagree with that?

PONOMAREV: I disagree because obviously Ukrainians, they have very clear strategy to give up small portions of land in exchange for high casualties on the Russian side. And that's what's happening. Russia has paid this year a quarter of a million at least of lives for what they have conquered. And it's like less than 1 percent of Ukrainian territory with this tempo to conquer all of Donetsk region.

They would need another decade at least to move forward so that the war would continue. And Putin understands this. That's why I'm saying that he wants this negotiations just at his terms.

SANCHEZ: Ilya Ponomarev, thank you so much for the time. Appreciate your time.

PONOMAREV: Thank you very much Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, why thousands of passenger planes suddenly need a software fix? Could this affect your next flight? But first, ahead of Small Business Saturday, tomorrow we're going to speak with the CEO about the impact of President Trump's tariffs on smaller shops. Stay with us.

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SANCHEZ: In our money lead, Americans simply can't resist a good deal. At least that's what retailers are hoping on this Black Friday and beyond. A survey by the National Retail Federation is forecasting a record 187 million people plan to shop this weekend, 3 million more than last year.

This, despite a report earlier this week that showed consumer confidence at its lowest level in months. Whatever the cause of this apparent contradiction, small business owners could benefit. Like today's business leader behind a company called, Sash Bag. A passion project started by a mom who saw an opportunity to reinvent purses. Joining us now is the founder and CEO of Sash Bag, Nichole MacDonald. Nichole, thanks so much for sharing your Black Friday with us. How has it gone so far?

NICHOLE MACDONALD, FOUNDER AND CEO, THE SASH BAG: Well, so far, I'm so happy with the turnout. Again, I didn't know what to expect because all -- everything we're hearing is how consumers are pulling back. You know, they're concerned about the economy. So it's really nice to see shoppers showing up and supporting small business.

SANCHEZ: I know you've talked to CNN before about the impact of tariffs. How have they impacted you so far as you've prepped for the holiday season?

MACDONALD: Well, we had a huge impact because there's a lot of product that we produced ahead of time. You know, quarter four is what most direct-to-consumer businesses aim for and plan for all year long. And we had product that was ready to ship.

I mean, tens of thousands of units of Sash Bags that were ready to ship in September from India, which is where we primarily manufacture, that we weren't able to bring in because of the tariffs. So that product is still sitting there. It's still sitting in India.

Perfectly good, beautiful Sash Bags that we weren't able to bring in for quarter four because of the tariffs. So, again, this is one of the reasons why, you know, supporting small businesses during this time is so important, because as small business owners, we are disproportionately impacted by tariffs because our costs are higher. We're doing, you know, thoughtful small batch production.

We're hiring artisans to create our products. So that cost is a little bit higher, which makes it much more difficult to pay the tariffs and bring the product in for the holidays.

[17:35:05]

SANCHEZ: Other than that stash of bags that are waiting in India, have you had to raise prices? And -- and what about your employees? Have you had to cut any roles?

MACDONALD: Yes, we had to reduce our staff by about 50 percent this year. And, you know, it's sort of a combination of issues. But, you know, not being able to bring the product in means we don't have the right product mix. We have to have a combination of our core, like a black leather stash bag is our number one best seller. We don't have any right now.

We have plenty that are manufactured. We actually have product in Canada. You know, Canadians have cut back their spending on U.S. companies. And so we have product in Canada that we wanted to bring down to the U.S. really high value, most popular products that we have up there that we weren't able to bring down because once it crosses over that border, even those product we've owned for years, it's going to hit that. You know, as soon as it comes through the border, the duties are going to come in and we're going to have that 50 percent tariff.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MACDONALD: So that's been challenging. We have had to cut back our staff. We have had to raise prices. But the benefit is that, you know, we have a product that has a passionate customer base. And so through COVID, through tariffs, through whatever, you know, they show up and really support us. And that's been the game changer for us.

SANCHEZ: And -- and you talked about that support for small businesses. Obviously, tomorrow, small business Saturday. What's your message to folks out there about how important it is to support small and local businesses?

MACDONALD: Yes. It's incredibly important because small business makes up a huge part of our economy, a huge part of our employment base. And we need that. We need small businesses to -- to survive. And right now, again, they are being disproportionately impacted. They are paying more tariffs than the large companies. So I know it's tempting to try and, you know, find the -- the lowest priced item. But that's really going to off balance who we are as a country. We really need those small businesses to survive.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And if you are interested in checking out these bags, you can visit thesashlife.com. Nichole MacDonald, thanks so much.

MACDONALD: Thanks so much, Boris.

SANCHEZ: So is there anything out there that could convince you to go out into a store potentially standing in line for hours to get Black Friday deals? We'll talk about that in just moments.

Plus, President Trump's Thanksgiving message targeting lawmakers from a certain state using slurs. We'll discuss with our political panel.

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[17:41:59]

SANCHEZ: In the Politics Lead, President Trump accelerating his immigration crackdown, saying he'll permanently pause migration from all third world countries after officials say an Afghan national was behind Wednesday's deadly shooting on two National Guard members in the nation's capital. Not exactly clear yet though, which countries are going to be on the list.

Our panel is with us now and just today as part of this directive to tighten the administration's immigration agenda, the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says his department is working to cut off federal benefits to illegal aliens and preserve them for U.S. citizens. What do you make of that response, Sabrina?

SABRINA SINGH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, what's confusing about that response is that illegal aliens can't get access to benefits like SNAP or anything else that the federal government provides. So it's a little confusing why he's saying that other than that's just a political point to score with -- with President Trump. I think obviously what happened earlier this week is horrific.

And, you know, we're keeping in mind of -- of the one National Guardsman who's still fighting for his life. But, you know, to -- to do something like this, to just, you know, swing so far and say no one else can come to our country from these 19 countries, you're just going to alienate so many communities that are already here who did fight alongside Americans abroad and did help save American lives.

SANCHEZ: Joe, the administration has wasted no time on advancing some of its efforts, whether it's an immigration crackdown, using this potentially as justification, but also moving the National Guard into U.S. cities.

JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER GOP STRATEGIST: Right. And I understand how controversial that is. And this is an opportunity to really kind of take a step back. And unfortunately use this tragedy as an opportunity to think about is our immigration system working? Is the deployment of the National Guard causing more harm than good? And these are all things that we could have vigorous but respectful debates about. And unfortunately, we keep falling into this name calling back and forth process, really not helpful.

SANCHEZ: Eva, some Afghans in the United States are feeling great fear about this effort. That's according to the leader of AfghanEvac, a nonprofit that works to relocate Afghani immigrants. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAWN VANDIVER, PRESIDENT, AFGHANEVAC: They absolutely decry what this man did. They are very upset. He's not indicative of the larger Afghan community. And they're worried that the President and his -- his team are going to use this man's actions, this deranged man's actions as a cudgel to -- to kick them out of a place that they've spent their entire life serving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You have some new reporting on this.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, this is really the worst case scenario for every Afghan immigrant in this country. You know from covering immigrants and other marginalized communities that often when these episodes happen, folks kind of hold their breath, praying that it isn't someone who holds their identity, right. Because often there is this reflex to -- to -- to demonize entire communities. And so if you've never had that experience of sort of holding your breath, that's something to think about.

[17:44:59]

But I just got off the phone with Molly Gray. She is the executive director of the Vermont Afghan Alliance. And actually she tells me that Vermont is home to the largest population of Afghans in the nation per capita. And so she does work with these communities. They are frightened. Some of them are not leaving their homes out of fear of retribution.

But also many of them are deeply integrated into the small towns across the state at this point. And she says from a real practical perspective, the state is very reliant on Afghans and the immigrant workforce because of the shrinking workforce and very small tax base in the state. And so often we get an emotional response to these horrible tragedies. But I think once cooler heads ultimately hopefully prevail, there are real practical implications about how to move forward.

SANCHEZ: Sabrina, do you sense that there is potentially a shift in public sentiment toward these Afghan refugees given that after the withdrawal, there was bipartisan eagerness to expedite their entry into the United States, those folks that helped U.S. forces abroad. Do you sense there might be a shift now?

SINGH: Well, I think, you know, to something that Joe said, you know, we're becoming so politically divided that the rhetoric that's coming out of this administration and demonizing the entire community, some of which did help American military abroad and help save lives, is such a detriment to that community and -- and to the fabric of, you know, our country.

And so I think, you know, if we continue to see this rhetoric coming from the administration, you're going to see targeted violence towards these communities. And that's, of course, something that we don't want, whether it's a small community in Vermont, to Seattle, to, you know, in Washington, where you have concentrations of Afghan refugees. That's what you don't want to see happen. You actually want to see the temperature being taken down right now. Sadly, that's not something that happens.

SANCHEZ: And to that point, something you mentioned a moment ago, Joe, the President's messaging generally, he posted a Thanksgiving message online, not incredibly traditional, right? He wished, "A very happy Thanksgiving salutation to all of our great American citizens and patriots who have been so nice in allowing our country to be divided, disruptive, carved up, murdered, beaten, mugged and laughed at."

He then used an offensive term to describe Governor Tim Walz, who he says does nothing, and wrote about Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, always wrapped in her swaddling hijab and who probably came into the USA illegally and that you're not allowed to marry your brother, advancing a conspiracy theory about her, who does nothing but hatefully complain about our country. What happened to happy Thanksgiving?

MORENO: Boris, you're putting your finger, honestly, on what's so difficult to be a conservative, leaning citizen, who my whole life has cherished vigorous but respectful debate. And so when you see something like this, which is absolutely indefensible, and you're sitting at the Thanksgiving table and your family and friends say, how can you possibly support an administration that comes out with messages like this? It's not easy.

And -- and you have to take the big picture view. Do you think that we're better off as a country now than we would be under a Biden or Harris administration? And is it worth putting up with a President that puts out messaging like this? It's a tough one. And I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that. SINGH: You can say, you know, I totally agree with the sentiment there. But, you know, President Joe Biden or had it been President Kamala Harris would never in their mind put anything out like that. It's so demeaning. It's so disgraceful. It's so despicable from the office of, you know, one of the most powerful leaders in the world to put something out like that and target lawmakers also. It's just horrific.

MCKEND: But President Trump does occupy a really unique space in American politics that he can routinely make these kinds of comments. And there is no real consequence from his supporters.

MORENO: I would just say, though, I really do wish a lot of the left would also tone it down. Because you can only say things like fascist, king, Nazi, invasion by the National Guard so many times before young, impressionable, possibly mentally ill young people take matters into their own hands. So, look, I'm not defending President Trump, but there's opportunities on both sides to really lower the temperature.

SANCHEZ: We appreciate this vigorous debate and conversation. Thank you all so much.

Up next, the highly emotional toll of President Trump's immigration crackdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMEN MARIA REY CALDAS, FORMER IMMIGRATION JUDGE: It shouldn't feel like a war zone when you're going into a courtroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:49:19]

SANCHEZ: Next, we're going to take you inside America's halls of justice where migrant arrests know few bounds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: In our National Lead, an eye-opening look inside America's courthouses in the age of Trump's immigration crackdown. Across the U.S., migrants showing up for hearings are being detained by Customs and Border Officers either before they enter a courtroom or when they come out. Last spring, the Department of Homeland Security rescinded guidance that had previously limited immigration enforcement near courthouses. CNN's Omar Jimenez reports on the emotional toll of these arrests.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move out of the way.

REY CALDAS: I will never forget the visuals of seeing masked, armed men walking past my courtroom as I'm watching the people in front of me shake in fear from what is coming.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The woman was forcibly slammed to the floor.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: ICE took the rare step of relieving an officer of his duties.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Every weekday in New York City, foreigners come here to 26th Federal Plaza to meet with the judges overseeing their immigration cases.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): But since this past spring, they're not just seeing judges. ICE agents are there too, detaining some men and women without explanation as they leave routine court hearings, even when their case is still ongoing. These are civil courts, and according to an analysis of federal data, over 70 percent of people in ICE detention have no criminal convictions. Ben Remy comes here almost every day to deliver free legal advice to whoever needs it, wherever they need it.

[17:55:17]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a first for me giving legal advice in a bathroom, but I actually encountered them in the bathroom with a CPP agent that was asking them questions.

(through audio translation): I'm an immigration lawyer. OK. You don't have to talk to the officers if you don't want to.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): An hour later, that same man is immediately detained outside the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): You have rights. You can give me your card if you want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): That's my address, and phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): I'm going to walk with you so you are not alone.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): In New York City, ICE made nearly half of all of its arrests outside courtrooms through July this year. The detainees are then transferred to ICE detention facilities across the country, like Sonia's husband, who was sent to a detention center in New Jersey. Sonia and her family came from Ecuador in 2023 and filed an asylum claim. Here in the United States, her husband worked as a truck driver.

Earlier this year, he was arrested for petty theft, but the charges were set to be dismissed and sealed. In response to CNN, the Department of Homeland Security referenced Sonia's husband's petty theft charges without mentioning those charges were set to be dismissed, saying, quote, criminal illegal aliens are not welcome in the U.S. Sonia says her children are struggling.

SONIA ANDRANGO-OROZCO, ASYLUM SEEKER (through audio translation): The boy was fine. But the day before yesterday when we were sleeping, he couldn't sleep. And he told me, mommy, I miss my dad. It's been many days since he hasn't come back. The girl, she always cries. She's older. She kind of understands what's going to happen.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): These detentions are leaving immigrants with an impossible choice. If they skip a hearing, that's grounds for removal. But since President Donald Trump has come into office, they can still be detained, even while trying to go through the legal process.

ANDRANGO-OROZCO (through audio translation): I have friends from the neighborhood who have never shown up for court, and nothing has ever happened to them. They haven't showed up to court since getting here. But I've always shown up. We were doing things the right way.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): Judge Carmen Rey Caldas worked on the 12th floor of 26 Federal Plaza, ruling on asylum cases just like Sonia's and her family.

REY CALDAS: The hallway space at 26 Federal Plaza is public. And so the court really doesn't have a lot that it can do to prevent ICE from being in the hallways.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): At the beginning of 2025, there were approximately 700 immigration judges across the U.S. About 150 of them have either been fired or taken an early out offer since Trump took office. In August, Judge Rey Caldas was one of them.

REY CALDAS: Honestly, the courthouse just doesn't feel the same. I've seen attorneys, both defense and ICE, shake from the screams coming in out of the hallways. It shouldn't feel like a war zone when you're going into a courtroom.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): DHS told us arrests outside courtrooms are common sense and safer because people have gone through security and been screened to not have any weapons. Sonia's husband was supposed to appear in court from detention this morning.

ANDRANGO-OROZCO (through audio translation): I am worried, about not having enough to take care of them.

JIMENEZ (through audio translation): What are you thinking about?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through audio translation): That I love him very much. That I miss him a lot. And that hopefully we will get him out there soon, and we will be together again. They shouldn't separate families like that, because it's ugly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: And we're still waiting to see what happens with her dad. He had already been moved to Mississippi and is now in Arizona. But that's the other thing with these another dynamic, these quick transfers. Another Venezuelan man we spoke to who you didn't see as part of this told us he had been transferred across four states and detention facilities in just 11 days. And when we asked DHS about him, DHS said he came in the country through the Biden era CBP1 app, which even DHS didn't describe as illegal to us but described it as, quote, disastrous and that he's been put in removal proceedings. And we're showing you this because you might hear a CEO, this person was taken or arrested by ICE. But this is the reality of what comes next for us. Boris.

[17:59:49]

SANCHEZ: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Boris Sanchez in for Jake Tapper. This hour, a cross country winter storm threatening to wreak havoc on post-Thanksgiving travel with the potential to drop heavy rain and multiple inches of snow across the U.S. this weekend. The storm also bringing frigid Arctic air that will send temperatures plummeting. We're tracking it all in the CNN Weather Center.