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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pipe Bomb Suspect Enters No Plea During First Court Appearance; CDC Panel Votes To End Universal Hepatitis B Shots For Newborns; Netflix Announces Deal To Buy Warner Bros And HBO for $72 Billion; Trump Calls For "Cultivating Resistance" In Europe; FIFA Awards Trump Its New FIFA Peace Prize. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired December 05, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, we're following, not one, but two, three, I mean, major legal developments, including a federal judge ordering the unsealing of grand jury transcripts in the investigations of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Our legal experts are here to break down exactly what we could learn when those documents do become public.

Plus, RFK Jr.'s handpicked vaccine advisers officially voting today on a major change to childhood vaccinations, deciding to abandon the universal hepatitis B vaccine for newborns. I'm going to be joined live by a former top official at the CDC to react as local health departments and doctors from coast to coast brace for potential impacts.

And a Native American actress says she was stopped by ICE agents asking for identification when she gave them her tribal I.D. She says one of the ICE agents called it fake. That actress, Elaine Miles, will join us live.

The Lead tonight, we're tracking new developments across three major legal stories, the suspect accused of placing pipe bombs near the RNC and DNC headquarters in January, 2021. He entered no plea in his first court appearance today. A source telling CNN that the man, Brian Cole Jr., told the FBI that he believed the 2020 election was stolen. It was not.

Also, a federal judge in Florida moving to unseal grand jury documents and other records related to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Plus, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to decide if President Trump's attempt to restrict birthright citizenship is constitutional.

We're going to unpack all of this and more. CNN's Evan Perez and Kara Scannell are here. Let's start that with that court appearance today. Evan, what are you learning?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. The suspect, Brian Cole Jr., did not enter a plea. He had his family members there offering some support, but we were anticipating perhaps that we might see no more charges against him, but that did not happen. He's expected to be back in court in about ten days.

In the meantime, though, we are learning a lot more about what he has been telling the FBI. He sat for hours of interviews with the FBI yesterday, and among the things that we learned that he told the FBI is that he believed the 2020 election was stolen. And, of course, that's important because it sort of indicates for the first time a possible motive of why he is alleged to have placed those bombs behind the RNC building and near the DNC building just a couple blocks away from the U.S. Capitol.

Of course, that claim that the election was stolen is something that President Trump was behind back in that time, and also was the reason why tens of thousands of Americans came to the nation's Capitol and ended -- up a lot of them ended up ransacking the U.S. Capitol that morning on January 6th, which is when, of course, those bombs were found.

And so that's what's key here as the investigation continues. And, again, the Justice Department says that they anticipate they'll be bringing more charges against him.

TAPPER: And, Kara, you've been following the Epstein probe. What have we seen so far from this judge in Florida who made this surprising ruling today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, a judge in Florida, said that he was going to allow the Justice Department to release grand jury transcripts, and he was modifying a protective order that will open the door for the Justice Department to release more files. This all relates to an investigation in -- back in the early 2000s that ended in 2007 with Epstein reaching that non-prosecution agreement in exchange for pleading guilty to a state prostitution charge. So, that's the nucleus and kind of the time period for these files. And the judge saying that this Epstein Transparency Act trumps the grand jury secrecy rules.

Now, there are two other cases pending. There are the investigations of Epstein in New York, where he was charged federally in 2019, and also the case against his former girlfriend and accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. Before those two judges, there is the same request pending.

And we know more details about what DOJ wants released from those files in this protective order. If it's lifted, it means they could make travel records, public financial records, interviews with witnesses, interviews with victims, of booking photos and police reports, so a wealth of information. That is still pending before these two judges in New York.

And, interestingly, a lawyer who represents a number of survivors filed a letter today with one of those judges saying that the House Oversight Committee's release of 20,000 records last month also led to the release of more than a dozen victims' names. So, he's asking the judge to require the Justice Department to work with the lawyers for the victims if he is going to release information so that those victims' names and identities are protected going forward.

[18:05:00]

Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Kara Scannell and Evan Perez, thank you so much.

Now, to that other legal development, today's news out of the U.S. Supreme Court, the justices will rule on President Trump's attempt to narrow birthright citizenship. The idea of whether or not you are automatically a U.S. citizen, if you are born in the United States.

CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is here. Elie, how much of a chance does the president have in succeeding in its effort, given how pretty clear the U.S. Constitution is?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jake, I think it's going to be an uphill climb definitely for Donald Trump and the Trump administration here, but I don't think he has a 0 percent chance. So, the 14th Amendment tells us that any person born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof is automatically a citizen.

Now, for 150-plus years, that's been understood to mean if you're born here with very narrow exceptions, you are automatically a citizen.

Now, Trump's order that he issued on his first day in office essentially says, but not if your parents are here illegally or temporarily. The problem, however, is our courts have never taken the 14th Amendment that way. Trump's order has been challenged across the country in Washington State, in Maryland, in Massachusetts. Every federal court to have considered this so far has cited against Donald Trump. One federal judge in Washington State, Jake, a Reagan appointee, said that Trump's approach was flagrantly unconstitutional.

So, it's an unknown area, but I think he's got a tough climb here.

TAPPER: This all centers on that phrase, as you note, subject to the jurisdiction thereof in the 14th amendment right. Give us a preview of what the both sides are going to argue about that.

HONIG: So, the administration has said that if the parents are here illegally or temporarily, they're not subject to the U.S. government. They're subject to wherever their home country is from. But the counter argument, and I think the better argument, is even if you're here illegally or temporarily, of course, you're still subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. You can still be arrested by the U.S. government, imprisoned, taxed by the U.S. government, and so the counter-response is no.

What that phrase means is a very narrow group of people, the children of diplomats who might not be subject or the children of invading armies, a situation we've never actually had. But that's the counterargument, and I think the better argument.

TAPPER: On the suspect accused of placing those pipe bombs at the DNC and RNC on the night of January 5th, now that we've seen this complaint, how solid do you think the case against this man is? HONIG: You know, it's circumstantial, Jake, but circumstantial cases can still be strong, and I think this is one of those. So, there's really two broad categories of evidence laid out in the complaint. One, they have compelling evidence from credit card and bank records that this individual purchased components of the pipe bombs identical to the ones used in the actual bombs, not matched by DNA, but the same type of piping, the same type of end caps, the same type of timing devices in and around that area in the months before the setting of the bomb. So, that's a good piece of evidence. It's not necessarily conclusive.

Also, they have cell tower records. Anytime your cell phone's on, it's pinging off of local cell towers and can tell us roughly where you are that put this individual right in the right area of where the RNC and DNC buildings are, right at the right time on January 5th. And, finally, Jake, there's this new reporting. It's not actually not stated in the complaint, but the reporting is, if he said he believed the 2020 election was stolen, that's a powerful piece of evidence for the prosecution because it gives him motive, it gives the why did he do this answer.

TAPPER: Yes. So, we were talking about that earlier. Evan Perez told about this idea that he believed the 2020 election was stolen. We don't know -- I mean, they haven't come out yesterday yet, the Justice Department or the FBI, and said that's the motive, but it's a possible motive, right? And it does play into their case.

HONIG: Yes. You know, I found it interesting. I read that complaint very carefully. And that statement that he made to the FBI, according to our reporting, is actually not in the complaint right now. When you write up a complaint as a federal prosecutor, you're not necessarily going to pour in every piece of evidence you have, right? It doesn't have to be exhaustive. But a piece of evidence like that to me, just if I could go back to my prosecutor days, it's crucial because it tells you why he did this. It gives you a motive. It gives him a reason to do what he did.

So, it's curious to me that it's not in the complaint. I would've a question about when did he say this to the FBI. Was it before or after the drafting of that actual complaint?

TAPPER: Moving to Florida, a federal judge there is going to unseal these grand jury documents in the Jeffrey Epstein case. Three judges had previously decided to not unseal the grand jury documents. Why the switch now? And do you expect that we're going to see anything important or of major interest, anything new in these grand jury documents?

HONIG: So, the switch now is because we had this new law passed just a couple weeks ago. That's what the judge in Florida said, said, basically, well before, it was confidential because it was grand jury. Now we have this new law that, no pun intended, trumps the prior status quo.

You know, this case in Florida is sort of the original sin, Jake.

[18:10:00]

This is the 2007-'08 case presided over by Alexander Acosta, where they gave Jeffrey Epstein the original sweetheart deal that let him plead out to a low lease state crime where he served 13 months, much of it, not even behind bars.

And so I don't know what's going to be in that grand jury files, but what I'm going to be looking for is, how much of a case -- how much did Alexander Acosta turn a blind eye to? How much did he give it away when he gave Jeffrey Epstein this softball deal?

TAPPER: All right. Elie Honig, thanks so much, as always. I appreciate it.

HONIG: Thank you.

TAPPER: After a lot of chaos and confusion, RFK Jr.'s vaccine advisers, handpicked, officially voted today on a change to childhood vaccinations, just as so many doctors feared they would. A former CDC official who resigned over concerns about RFK Jr. joins me live to react.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, a longstanding vaccine recommendation for newborns has now been eliminated thanks to RFK Jr. Today, HHS Secretary Kennedy's handpicked vaccine advisers voted 8-3 to end the recommendation that all infants get their first dose of the hepatitis B vaccine shortly after birth.

[18:15:00]

The acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention still needs to approve that.

Former CDC Chief Medical Officer Dr. Debra Houry joins me now. She resigned in August, been citing concerns that RFK Jr. was censoring and politicizing science at the CDC.

Dr. Houry, first, for parents watching right now, explain what this huge reversal means.

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: Yes. You know what it means is it's more difficult to get a vaccine to protect your baby. They did allow for shared clinical decision-making, which in itself is confusing. That means you can talk to your doctor and see if the shot is right for you. But, in general, the committee push the date to two months or later, meaning 1,400 babies could go on to develop hepatitis each year because people may not know to ask or to get their hepatitis vaccine for their baby at birth.

TAPPER: Is there some new science or evidence that the hep B shot is harmful to kids? Why was this decision made?

HOURY: Great question. No new science and no new safety signals, and many of the clinical organizations today called that into question. Why was the committee revising a vaccine that's been safe and effective for 30 years? And there's no good answer to that.

TAPPER: There was also a lot of chaos and confusion over the vote itself. The vote was delayed twice in September, then yesterday. Today, some vaccine advisers said they were being asked to vote on recommendations without any debate or any evidence. What does that signal to you about the process, not only for the hep B vaccine, but for the entire childhood vaccine schedule, which they also discussed today?

HOURY: Yes. I think it puts vaccines for children in our country at risk. And, you know, the secretary talks about gold standard science and radical transparency, and that's certainly not what we saw. If a committee that had three months to meet and discuss and review the evidence and still isn't sure what they're voting on, and several of the people that presented didn't have a background in vaccine science and were labeled CDC because it was a contractor from CDC, hired by political leadership, not a CDC career scientist.

TAPPER: You have a brand new op-ed in TIME Magazine. It's titled, I Left the CDC 100 Days Ago. My Worst Fears About the Agency are Coming True, quote. In it, you say that Congress should be acting in, but they fail to act. What is it that you want lawmakers to do?

HOURY: You know, I testified before Congress and they promised oversight after that, including having the secretary come testify and defend what he has done, and that hasn't happened. Congress could look at how the funds are being spent at CDC. Is it being spent appropriately or political leaders changing some of the strategies and policies that are being funded? And, certainly, you know, we've heard that vaccines wouldn't be more difficult for people to get in this country. We're seeing that.

TAPPER: The damage that's being done by RFK Jr. and his anti-vax minions, do you think it's short-lived? Is it possible that when Trump is no longer president, we can get past this as a nation?

HOURY: Three years is way too long. The president needs to act now if he wants to protect his legacy of things like Operation Warp Speed. I mean, what I highlighted in my op-ed from what's happened in just a hundred days changes to websites to post, you know, policies on harm reduction and changing names of diseases and posting information that's not right on vaccines to hiring more politicals, having somebody in charge of the science priority who's a realtor and an aviation attorney.

I mean, that's really putting CDC on the wrong trajectory and I worry about the health of those in our country.

TAPPER: Dr. Debra Houry, thank you so much for your time and for your warning to the nation.

A $72 billion deal was announced today involving Netflix and Warner Brothers Discovery, which owns CNN. What you need to know about the future of so many of your streaming favorites, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:20:00]

TAPPER: In our Money Lead, it's a mega deal that could reshape the entire entertainment industry. Netflix has won this bidding war for Warner Brothers, agreeing to buy the legendary T.V. and movie studio and the HBO MAX streaming service for more than $72 billion, plus debt. The deal will give Netflix control of some of the entertainment industry's most valuable intellectual property, including Batman and other D.C. comics, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, combining them with their own.

We should note, Warner Brothers Discovery is the parent company of CNN, but I should also note, CNN and other WBD cable channels are not part of the Netflix acquisition. So, everybody who texted me today, congratulating me on being part of Netflix, sorry, I'm not part of Netflix. We are going to be spun off into a new company called Discovery Global.

Let's discuss all this with Puck Founding Partner Matt Belloni. Matt, so good to see you. This is a massive deal, combines one of Hollywood's storage studios with Netflix. A recent Bank of America analyst reports said the deal means the streaming wars are effectively over. How much will this deal, if it's approved, reshape Hollywood?

MATT BELLONI, FOUNDING PARTNER, PUCK: Oh, well, first of all, it takes the Warner Brothers studio out as a separate buyer and releaser of content. So, it sort of shrinks Hollywood in a way. Netflix is saying that they will continue to release Warner Brothers' movies in theaters at the beginning, who knows what, down the road, and they are going to continue to make shows both for their own platforms and for others, because Warner Brothers makes a lot of shows, like Ted Lasso and Shrinking that air on different platforms other than their own.

So, in the beginning, there won't be that much of a change, but within Hollywood, it's a massive change. Warner Brothers is a 100-year-old studio that has been around, you know, since the beginning of movies.

[18:25:02]

And now it's part of a streaming service that didn't even make movies until about ten years ago.

TAPPER: A lot of the entertainment community, as I don't need to tell you, has reacted quite negatively to this deal. James Cameron previously told you that this move would be a disaster. The Writer's Guild released a statement today that says, quote, the outcome, would eliminate jobs, push down wages, worsen conditions for all entertainment workers, raise prices for consumers, and reduce the volume and diversity of content for all viewers. This merger must be blocked, unquote.

Is that the prevailing view in Hollywood?

BELLONI: Certainly among the creative class. I mean, all the guilds have come out against this. And when you talk to people, there's a lot of fear. I mean, the problem is there's a -- you know, there were three potential scenarios of where Warner Brothers was going to be sold, and they're all bad for the community. It's all shrinking. It's mergers. It's things that are not expanding out the business. Netflix, at least, is a company that is growing, and they say they're investing, they say they're going to make more content. Again, we don't know if that's true, but it is at least what they're saying now. They're not just doing this to smash together two studios and fire a bunch of people and make less content.

So, Netflix, at least, has a plan to grow. We'll see if they actually can do it. But, you know, I'm skeptical, particularly for theaters. I think this is not great for movie theaters.

TAPPER: So many analysts thought that Paramount had the inside track on this deal because they were seen as President Trump's preferred buyer. They're the ones that first started this whole process. Kara Swisher, who appears on CNN, she made some interesting comments about how she thinks that idea impacted the deal. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: There's been a definite (BLEEP) fat guy feel related to the threat of Trump blocking anyone but his cronies, like the Ellisons from owning all the juicy bits. The deal was existential to both Comcast and Netflix. One of them, I felt, was going to get it. And they were not going to back down the face of Paramount's really cloud-ish nepo baby and big daddy shaking a Trump stick at them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you agree? How mu, how much did the resentment of this idea that they were tight with Trump play into this decision for Warner Brothers to go with Netflix?

BELLONI: I think certainly a factor. It wasn't just that this was Trump's preferred buyer because they own CBS right now and they've installed some people at CBS that Trump likes. I think it was the way that Paramount was promoting this. They were essentially telling all these other bidders, we are the only ones that can get approved. We have the inside track with the Trump administration and we're going to be the ones.

And they actually were asking for my reporting. They're asking for sort of a discount because of that. We can get approved, so you have to go with us so we're going to offer a little less. And I think that is what rubbed this board the wrong way.

TAPPER: Matt Belloni, so good to have you on. Thank you so much. I appreciate.

BELLONI: Thank you.

TAPPER: A Native American actress says an ICE agent did not believe that her tribal identification was real. She's going to join us live next to explain what happened. And we're going to have a response from the Department of Homeland Security. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, lots of U.S. citizens and people with valid identification are getting caught up in the Trump administration's crackdown on illegal immigration. These individuals include Native American Actress Elaine Miles. You might know her for her roles in The Last Of Us, or Northern Exposure or Smoke Signals. Elaine Miles says ICE agents approached her last month near a bus stop in Redmond, Washington, asking her for her I.D. When Elaine Miles gave them her tribal I.D., which is federally recognized, she says one of the ICE agents called it fake.

Joining us now is Elaine Miles and Darren Thompson from Sacred Defense Fund, a native-led nonprofit which helps advocate for native rights and representation.

Elaine, I'm so sorry this happened to you. What happened after he called your I.D. fake?

ELAINE MILES, ACTRESS: They just kind of kept arguing with me about it and I kept telling them that it was from a federally recognized tribe in Eastern Oregon and it's a federal I.D. and only enrolled members can get those, because they kept saying anybody could make them. And I was like, that's not fake. It's a real I.D.

TAPPER: Certainly ironic somebody telling a Native American, she's not necessarily in the country legally.

In a statement to CNN, the Department of Homeland Security says, quote, allegations that DHS law enforcement officers engage in racial profiling are disgusting, reckless, and categorically false, adding, quote, ICE was conducting targeted immigration enforcement traffic stops and encountered Elaine Miles driving a vehicle registered to an illegal alien. She was never arrested. Any claim that ICE questioned her tribal I.D. are false. ICE agents are trained to recognize tribal I.D.s and accept them of proof of status, unquote. That is the official government response.

Elaine, what is the truth there? What is your response?

MILES: I even asked them -- because they are federal, I asked them, I go, you're a federal agent. You should know the tribal I.D.s and the tribal rights that we have, the treaty rights that we have, and they all just kind of looked at me. And I always -- I keep saying after I talk about it so much these last few weeks, I wonder if they were really, really ICE agents or just bounties, because I know bounties are being paid. And if they're going to hire these bounties, they should educate them on our tribal rights.

TAPPER: Elaine, they claim that you were driving a car registered to an undocumented immigrant.

[18:35:03]

Is that true?

MILES: I was not driving. I was not driving. I was walking. And that's why I even said, what did I do when they stopped me. I go, I didn't jaywalk because I used the crosswalk. So, what did I do?

TAPPER: Are you aware of any, anything similar happening to any other Native Americans?

MILES: Oh, yes. Ever since I've started talking about it, I've heard about many natives that have been stopped, you know about two natives that were actually in those detention centers, and one of them was from Arizona. And it took a few weeks for people, her tribe, to even find her in that detention center.

And that's another thing I have issue with is why does it take so long for them to find them? What kind of paperwork do they keep or do they just throw them in there and not take any kind of paperwork because why are they putting natives in there, you know?

TAPPER: Yes, I would say. Darren, how often do you hear of situations where someone's tribal I.D. is not recognized, it's called fake?

DARREN THOMPSON, DIRECTOR OF MEDIA RELATIONS, SACRED DEFENSE FUND: It's difficult to say, but it's happens more frequently than we realize, and I think it's largely a result of lack of leadership and or transparency within the organization to emphasize that the use and issuance of tribal I.D.s is a real thing that has been negotiated with many tribes and the Department of Homeland Security.

TAPPER: And, Darren, what advice do you have for other Native Americans who have gone through something like this or might go through something like this?

THOMPSON: Sure. The need for legal representation is definitely always needed. There's a firm that you can look up called ICU Law. And there are attorneys that are on the clock that are ready and willing to help people stuck in this situation who are experienced with federal Indian law, as well as the sovereignty that tribes retained, which benefits tribal members who are -- have to go through an enrollment process to be enrolled in a tribe. So, indigenous people exist beyond the borders. However, indigenous people who are born here and recognized by tribes is a unique political status here in this country.

TAPPER: Elaine, sometimes --

THOMPSON: And the tribal identification is a result of that, sorry.

TAPPER: Elaine, sometimes people in the White House, including President Trump, are known to watch this show. If President Trump's watching right now, what would you say to him?

MILES: I would say educate your federal agents about our treaty rights and stick to our treaty rights, because those were for us a long time ago and they are unbreakable.

TAPPER: Elaine Miles, Darren Thompson, thanks to you both. I really appreciate your time today.

THOMPSON: Thank you. Thank you.

MILES: Thank you for having us.

TAPPER: Today, CNN asked President Trump how he squares winning this FIFA Peace Prize at the same time he's threatening to launch strikes against land in Venezuela. You can hear his answer, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead today, just moments after winning the first ever FIFA Peace Prize, President Trump was asked how the award might conflict with his vow to strike Venezuela, quote, on land soon. Here's what the president said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm here to represent our country in a different sense, but I can tell you I did settle eight wars and we have a ninth coming, but at which nobody's ever done before. But I want to really save lives. I don't need prizes. I need to save lives, and we're saving a lot of lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The honor also follows the release of the 33-page White House national security strategy, where President Trump and his team lay out his worldview.

Here now is CNN National Security Analyst Beth Sanner, and CNN Political and National Security Analyst David Sanger.

So, the national security strategy outlined by the White House, there's a lot in there. One of the things that's getting the most headlines is that it takes aim as some of our oldest allies in Europe suggesting the U.S. should begin, quote, cultivating resistance, unquote, across Europe by supporting political parties that fight against migration and promote nationalism, I mean, I guess like Marine Le Pen or Marie Le Pen, or whatever. How do you see this impacting our relationship with our allies?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, first, I think Europeans are a bit in shock because this puts into policy exactly what we heard from J.D. Vance when he went to the Munich Security Conference back in February and gave a famous speech that basically supported some of the right-wing parties.

But if you're upset as a European to see it, you're probably delighted if you're Xi Jinping or Vladimir Putin, because it also focuses the United States again on the Monroe Doctrine, which it mentions explicitly, for those who are scratching their heads, trying to remember 11th grade history for that, that basically said we are in command of our hemisphere. TAPPER: Right.

SANGER: But it left open the possibility that we are going to become less involved in other hemispheres. And so if you're Xi worrying about the U.S. interfering on Taiwan, if you're Putin worried about whether or not the U.S. would be pushing back if he went after NATO countries, there's not a lot in here that would disturb you.

TAPPER: So, I want to play what you just referred to Vice President Vance at the Munich Conference talking to European leaders back in February.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia. It's not China. It's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within.

Of all the pressing challenges that the nations represented here face, I believe there is nothing more urgent than mass migration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:45:05]

TAPPER: What's your response?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, in fact, you know, the mainstream parties of Europe, the ones that he would call maybe these enemies within the elites actually are on the same page on migration. I mean, we're seeing this labor government, this liberal government in the U.K. put into place very, very strong anti- immigration. That's not really all of this, that it's about.

The enemy within is very similar to what President Trump said to the gathering of all the senior military officers in America by saying that the enemy is within the United States. And so, you know, to me, this is about replicating the changes in America, the Trump led MAGA movement in Europe as well as in our hemisphere. That's very clear about -- in the language about the Western hemisphere.

TAPPER: The document also calls for -- basically calls for a halt to NATO expansion.

SANGER: Yeah.

TAPPER: It s says, quote, ending the perception and preventing the reality of NATO as a perpetually expanding alliance.

How is this document different from the one the national security document that the Trump administration, the first Trump administration put out?

SANGER: Well, it bears very little resemblance to that first document. First of all, this one is written really in the president's voice. It seems genuinely out of out of President Trump. And the last one did not. It read more like a traditional foreign policy document.

TAPPER: Like H.R. McMaster wrote it or something.

SANGER: And he did.

TAPPER: Right.

SANGER: And not only did McMaster write it, but he used it to try to focus the U.S. government away from counterterrorism and toward pushing back on a rising China and what he referred to as a revanchist and aggressive Russia. There's none of that here. There's no mention of China's expanding nuclear program. There's no mention of the Chinese cyberattacks on the United States, the very deep cyberattacks we've talked about before.

There is a lot of discussion of trade with China, and there's discussion of China in our hemisphere, but none of the of the argument that you saw in the first term that it had to be the mission of the United States to sort of push back on Chinese or Russian aggression around the world.

TAPPER: What do you think about the idea of this document from the United States, basically calling for an end to NATO expansion?

SANNER: Well, you know, I think that in some ways there are a lot of people who think of NATO expansion as being destabilizing, including people who are not necessarily MAGA people. And so, you know, I think it's I think we need to be careful about not going overboard on some of this. That's a decision that all NATO countries need to make together.

The Europeans have a -- have a vote on this.

TAPPER: Yeah.

SANNER: And it shouldn't be about U.S. dictating what Europe should be thinking or doing. And I think that's the basic problem with this. This whole document is it doesn't focus on democracy anywhere else in the world, including places like our allies in the gulf that don't have democracies.

Instead, we're focusing and saying that democracy needs to be fixed. And it's terribly, terribly wrong in the place that has the most vibrant democracies in the world. We just don't like the outcome.

TAPPER: So, President Trump accepted this FIFA Peace Prize earlier today at the Kennedy Center. And at the same time, he's calling for a larger military footprint in our hemisphere. As you noted, to control drug trafficking and migration and, quote, where necessary, the use of lethal force to replace the failed law enforcement only strategy of the last several decades.

So, David, on Tuesday, Secretary Hegseth said the strikes against these alleged narco traffickers, what they call narco terrorists, have, quote, only just begun. We learned that there was another strike in the eastern Pacific last night. Are you surprised that all the pushback from capitol hill and all the questions about whether or not a war crime was committed on that September 2nd strike, et cetera., haven't caused them to halt at all?

SANGER: No, they're doubling down, if anything, Jake. And it's pretty fascinating. The second strike distracted us a little bit from the fundamental question of whether the entire operation is legal, right? I mean, here we have the U.S. military shooting at boats that have civilians in them. They may be drug traffickers, but they are still civilians. They're not military engaged with the U.S.

And we haven't found any military legal scholars outside of the administration who declared that this is permissible under international or domestic law.

Now, the president does have a Office of Legal Counsel guidance on this. It comes from the Justice Department. They've just classified it and not made it public. So, we can't really judge what they're - what they are doing, along the way to try to justify this.

[18:50:03]

It was pretty interesting to see him get the FIFA Peace Prize. I have never -- I didn't know there was a FIFA.

TAPPER: There wasn't. Now there is.

SANGER: Now there is.

TAPPER: Now there is.

And one of the things -- I mean, that's such a good point that the -- that the -- the double tap or the follow up strike caused us to take our eye off the ball of the idea of, like, are any of these strikes legal?

SANGER: Yeah.

TAPPER: Thanks one and all for being here. Really appreciate it, Beth Sanner, David Sanger.

Coming up next, CNN's Anderson Cooper joins us live to preview his special, which airs this weekend. He revisited a story he first covered six years ago. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our world lead, in a new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY", my friend and colleague Anderson Cooper goes to Nairobi, Kenya, for a rare look inside some of Africa's harshest prisons.

[18:55:09]

The conditions in these prisons are brutal. The cells are often overcrowded with men and women who are stuck there for years before they can even have a trial. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST (voice-over): It's grim but orderly. The guards keep tight control, though overcrowding is a constant concern.

COOPER: In this cell, there's 170 men who sleep here. It's a cell built for about 70 people. There's one toilet for all 170.

It is stifling hot. There's very little ventilation. The conditions are difficult to, to say the least. All the men here sleep on the floor and they have to sleep on their sides because there's not enough room for somebody to sleep flat.

They're in this room from around 5:30 in the afternoon until 6:00 a.m., all of them together here. There's been an outbreak of scabies because of the close conditions.

COOPER (voice-over): Just outside the cell, hundreds more men sit in rows five times a day. They gather for head count. The guards tally their numbers.

By now, the men are used to this routine. They know what to expect from prison life on a daily basis. What many here and in prisons throughout Kenya don't know is how long they'll be locked up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And Anderson Cooper joins me now.

Anderson, that's just riveting. So, you returned to Kenya to revisit this story that you first covered six years ago.

Did you discover anything new this time around?

COOPER: Yeah, this is about this group. It's called Justice Defenders. And it was started by this British Jamaican attorney named Alexander McLean. And what he did is he was working in hospitals and hospices, in prisons, and he saw the root of the problem is this overcrowding.

And people don't have access to justice. They don't have attorneys. And so, they're often there for years just waiting for a hearing. And there may be no evidence against them.

So, he started a program where he teaches incarcerated people to be paralegals, and some who have shown a willingness to serve behind bars. He'll even help them get law degrees through the university of London, which is where Nelson Mandela did. They've seen -- they've reviewed the cases, these inmate paralegals have reviewed 170,000 cases, according to the group.

They've been able to get 69,000 incarcerated people out because of a lack of evidence or just a few dollars in bail money. It's an extraordinary success story.

TAPPER: Wow. So that's great progress that they're making there. Do they have any plans to expand elsewhere? Even -- honestly, we could use a group like that in the United States. COOPER: Yeah, they would very much like to. What's unique about their

program is they don't just offer this opportunity to incarcerated people.

Also to the corrections officers, to the prison guards, they teach them the law. It makes them better guards. It makes the prison more orderly because people at least know that they know the law. They understand why they've been charged with something and they have an access to justice.

He'd like to get it in U.S. prison.

TAPPER: And this Saturday, I should note, you and Laura Coates are hosting the great "CNN HEROES: AN ALL-STAR TRIBUTE", honoring everyday people making extraordinary contributions to their communities.

Tell us a bit about that.

COOPER: Yeah, we've been doing this. It's our 19th year, and there's five CNN Heroes who have been nominated by CNN viewers all throughout the year. We've been telling a lot of CNN Heroes stories, and this is an opportunity for five individuals to get awarded $10,000 each for their work. And then the person who's named as the CNN Hero of the Year gets an additional $100,000.

It's just -- it's nice to see people who they don't have money, they don't have access to power. But they saw a problem. They rolled up their sleeves, and they're doing extraordinary things. And this is a nice way to spotlight them and get more attention on their work.

TAPPER: Do you have a favorite one or I don't want you to play favorites. Is there a -- tell me one story? Tell me one story?

COOPER: I mean, they're all just incredible. There's one guy who, you know, rescues animals who are trapped by hoarders. I mean, and they find, you know, hundreds of animals living in a house. This guy goes in, you know, gets the animals, gets them medical treatment, gets them adopted elsewhere. I mean, there's just so many people helping people, helping animals all over the world.

TAPPER: All right, Anderson Cooper, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

And lots of coming from Anderson this weekend. Be sure to tune in to an all new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER".

COOPER: Thanks.

TAPPER: One whole hour, one whole story. That's Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN. And don't forget, Anderson and Laura Coates are going to be hosting "CNN HEROES: AN ALL-STAR TRIBUTE". That's tomorrow, Saturday, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, again, only here on CNN.

Coming up Sunday on "STATE OF THE UNION", Republican Senator John Curtis of Utah, Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. That's Sunday at 9:00 a.m. and noon Eastern on CNN. I love this photo. Like as if Dana and I are only like three inches apart from each other.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Bluesky, and on the TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and on Instagram @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can watch a show on the CNN app. Download the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.