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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Mike Lawler, (R-NY), Is Interviewed About House GOP Moderates Launch Health Care Revolt Against Leaders; U.S. Measles cases surge As South Carolina Outbreak Escalates; Rep. James Walkinshaw (D-VA), Is Interviewed About Democrats Condemn Noem Over Trump's Immigration Policies; WH: Oil Tanker Seizure Not An Escalation Towards War With Venezuela; MacKenzie Scott Donates $7.1 Billion To Nonprofits In 2025. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 11, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Stream The Arena or The Arena Saturday live or catch up whenever you want. It's in the CNN app. You can scan the QR code below to find it. You can also catch up by listening to The Arenas podcast. There's a QR code for that, too.

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Jake Tapper is now standing by for "The Lead."

Jake, "The Lead" is also on the weekends for CNN. I suggest you check it out, too.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thank you so much, Kasie. We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: See you.

[17:00:30]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: If two votes failed today, what happens tomorrow? The Lead starts right now.

A Congress deeply divided. No surprise there. All lawmakers agree Obamacare is not perfect. But can a majority in Congress agree on a fix before the deadline in less than three weeks when premiums for millions of Americans could go up drastically?

But first, the breaking news, go now evacuation orders as an atmospheric river floods part of Washington State. And swift water teams go door to door making rescues.

And some breaking news out of Indiana, a major Republican pushback on the pressure campaign led by President Trump and his allies. They wanted state Republicans to redraw state congressional maps mid- decade. Will there be consequences for the state of Indiana for this major Trump rebuke?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News. TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. And we are following this breaking news. Moments ago, Indiana state Senate Republicans rejected President Trump's intense push to enact a new congressional map ahead of 2026. The 31 to 19 vote saw 21 Republicans joining 10 Democrats to vote down this new congressional map that would have favored Republicans in all nine congressional districts and eliminated its two currently held by Democrats seats.

The vote holds massive implications for the 2026 midterms for Republicans as President Trump threatens serious consequences for those who voted against his wishes and even against the state of Indiana. I want to bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Kristen Holmes.

And Jeff, first to you. We knew there were Republicans reluctant to redrawing these congressional maps mid-decade. But did anyone really expect a vote total like this, a resounding rejection against President Trump?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, they did not. Certainly the White House and the president's allies did not. Even Indiana Republicans are somewhat surprised by the margin. But again, 21 Republicans voting with Democrats to reject this push by the White House. This question as we near the end of the year here is the biggest rebuke that President Trump has taken politically speaking in Ruby Red Indiana.

Of course, he's still popular there. There's no question if he ran again he would win there. But this is a sign that everyone, all Republicans, are not going to follow lockstep what he does.

And, Jake, I was watching the debate this afternoon. It was about three hours of debate, and it was extraordinary, actually, for all the national implications of this, this was actually very much a local debate. And what the White House was asking Indiana to do was redraw these districts that were effectively going to take away representation from some parts of the state and lump them into larger districts. There were concerns from rural senators, from some urban senators as well, specific concerns about the economy in northern Indiana. Would they be represented?

So at the end of the day, when you watch this debate, it was much more about local issues. But, of course, President Trump was trying to make the case that he needed these two seats. Of course, this is part of this extraordinary state by state by state redistricting plan that the president himself engineered several months ago to try and keep control of the House next year. Now, not having these two seats makes it more difficult. But the bottom line, a huge political rebuke for President Trump. We'll see if there's any fallout from it. I mean, he threatened

primaries against some of these Republicans who voted no. It's a lot of Republicans who voted no. So if that is going to happen, he'll have to find a lot of primary candidates out there. Obviously, Indiana Republicans are not too scared by his threats.

TAPPER: And there's also been talk, Kristen, by some of the president's allies of President Trump withholding federal funding from the state of Indiana. That's just part of this long pressure campaign by Trump and his allies against Indiana Republicans to draw these congressional maps. Have we had any immediate reaction from the White House to this stunning rebuke?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, we have not had any immediate reaction yet. Of course, we've reached out. We're waiting to hear. But there is no doubt that President Trump is going to be exceedingly angry by this result. I want to just pull up one of the things he said last night.

[17:05:05]

This is one of many posts that he made targeting these Indiana lawmakers. He said, "Anybody that votes against redistricting and the success of the Republican Party in D.C. will be, I am sure, met with a MAGA primary in the spring." But as Jeff said, that's 21 people. That was a huge margin. That's a lot of people primary that President Trump and the White House are going to have to do.

And just to give you an example of how caught off guard they were by this huge margin, we saw online some of the president's allies who were part of this effort posting, singling out specific Indiana lawmakers, very much so saying that this is the person driving this , this is the person or one of these two people are the people who are going to vote against this. Clearly, the fact that they were singling out these individuals shows that they didn't realize what a huge swath of lawmakers was not going to vote in favor of this redistricting. We've already heard from some of these allies who are lashing out at these lawmakers. But, you know, I think Jeff said it best, which is that they don't seem to mind. I do think this is going to be quite the blow for President Trump just in terms of the fact that he put so much effort and emphasis into this.

He had his team on the ground. He was leveling these threats, anything from withholding federal funding to MAGA primaries. And yet still this huge margin voting against what he was calling for.

TAPPER: Yes. There also been some lawmakers have gotten death threats. Kristen Holmes, Jeff Zeleny, thanks to both of you.

We're going to focus a little bit more on Indiana later in the program, but let's go to breaking news on our health lead right now. The fate of health care costs for the 22 million people who rely on these enhanced Obamacare subsidies that rests in the hands of Congress. And actions today, or lack thereof, suggest that enrollees could see payments soar next month and roughly 2 million additional Americans could be uninsured. Today, the U.S. senate voted on two wildly different health care plans. And spoiler alert, neither one of them had any chance of passing.

The Republican plan, which failed, would not have extended these enhanced subsidies for Obamacare. Instead, it would have funneled some money for two years into health savings accounts for some Obamacare enrollees. The Democratic plan, which also failed, would have extended the enhanced subsidies for three additional years. So now what? Well, over in the House of Representatives, Speaker Mike Johnson is facing calls from dozens of moderate members of the Republican conference to find some way, anyway, to tackle these exploding health care costs, believing this is directly tied to the Republican Party's political future in next year's -- next year's midterm elections.

More than three in four Obamacare enrollees, we should note, live in states won by President Trump in 2024. Three in four, that's according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Republican Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick, who represents the Pennsylvania congressional district that Kamala Harris won last year. Fitzpatrick has formally filed what's called a discharge petition that would force a floor vote on a bill to extend the subsidies.

But even if that petition gets the 218 signatures required, the House is set to adjourn for the rest of the year one week from today, meaning that vote might not happen in time. Now, unless there is some sort of dramatic turnaround, your elected officials who are paid to find solutions for issues facing Americans, especially Americans in need, well, they're failing to do their jobs. They're letting the clock run out on answers as the literal health of America is at stake.

Let's get straight to CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju on Capitol.

Manu, walk us through where things stand. Are there any Hail Marys left?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It seems very, very unlikely, Jake, and almost certain that these subsidies are going to expire because the two parties simply have a fundamental philosophical difference about how to proceed. And there are no negotiations that happen among leadership with Democratic and Republican leaders who are completely opposite sides on the issue on this matter. Now, there are some rank and file efforts to try to pressure their leadership into action. You mentioned some of them right there. This push was within the House of Representatives to try to extend those Obamacare subsidies for a short period of time as well as make some other changes.

But I just asked the speaker of the House himself about this effort from these swing district Republicans. He threw cold water on that push, Jake, and he said that he is going to move forward with his own plan that has been long awaited from many quarters within his own party. He plans to put that on the floor of the House next week. But Jake, even if that does pass the United States House next week in a narrow margin, it would have to get 60 votes in the United States Senate, where Democrats would have no interest in moving ahead with that because it does not deal with that issue of extending those expiring subsidies, which means we will be back to where we are today with no solution as so many Americans are waiting for Congress to come to some sort of resolution on this as they wait and see their health care premiums rise, Jake. [17:10:24]

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raja on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Let's discuss with Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York. Congressman, you're one of the 11 Republicans who have signed Congressman Fitzpatrick's discharge petition that would force a full vote in the House on extending Obamacare subsidies. Do you think this will get enough signatures and ultimately get to the floor of the House and pass before the House adjourns for the year?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, Jake, right now I've been in numerous meetings and discussions over the last 48, 72 hours focused entirely on getting a bill to the floor for an up or down vote. From my vantage point, there are two issues here that we're dealing with. One is the immediacy of the expiring premium tax credits that were put in place during COVID that the Democrats slated to expire at the end of this year. And the second is the longer term health care cost issue and the fact that since Obamacare took effect, health care premiums have risen 96 percent nationwide.

The immediacy requires action. And that's why I have signed on to two discharge petitions, one on Congressman Fitzpatrick's bill and another on Congresswoman Kiggans' bill along with Congressman Gottheimer of New Jersey. The focus here is to force folks on both sides of the aisle to take a stand.

From my vantage point, if you look at the two discharge petitions, we already have more than enough Republican signatures on both of them if every Democrat would sign on to force a vote. And so at this moment, it's incumbent that Leader Jeffries release his members and let them sign these discharge petitions for the Fitzpatrick bill, which is a two year extension with income limits, with insurance reforms, with PBM reforms and HSA expansion to allow HSAs to be used to pay for premiums and to roll over into the next year. Or the Kiggans Gottheimer bill, which is a one year extension with income limits and creates a vote next year on a plan to actually reform health insurance writ large.

So to me, those are the two choices before us.

TAPPER: Yes.

LAWLER: This is not about politics.

TAPPER: Why --

LAWLER: This is about getting a solution across the finish line.

TAPPER: Why is the onus on Democrats? They're the minority party. Don't you think it'll be more -- I mean, it's just a very small number of Republicans are a part of this. You seem to think that it's OK. You know, you have 11 or 20 or whatever it is. Republicans have signed the discharge petition and now you need every single other Democrat to do it.

Doesn't that take the onus off the majority party?

LAWLER: The reason we're doing the discharge and bucking our party and our leadership is because they're not putting a bill on the floor --

TAPPER: Yes.

LAWLER: -- to address the premium tax credit. So we have put forth discharge petitions. We have delivered enough Republican signatures along with 215 Democrats. If they all sign, this will come to the floor for a vote.

TAPPER: Yes.

LAWLER: So --

TAPPER: So let's --

LAWLER: -- Democrats have said, and the Democratic leader has said that this is the most existential issue. We have delivered a pathway forward. Give the signatures. Let's get the vote.

TAPPER: So --

LAWLER: We've been pushing our leadership to put a bill on the floor and they have failed to do that. They intend to put a health care plan forward next week on a number of issues that I would support to reform our health care system writ large. But we are going to do everything we can between now and the end of

the year to force a vote on a bill, whether it's by a discharge or an amendment, to force a vote on a bill to get an up or down vote on a premium tax credit extension.

TAPPER: So Manu just spoke with Speaker Johnson. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Spoken to all my colleagues. We've all worked around the clock to try to come up with a solution that satisfies the needs of all of our constituents.

RAJU: But will you give -- will you give them a vote? Will you give them a vote? JOHNSON: We're work -- we're working on a pack -- we're working on

package of legislation that will reduce premiums for all Americans, not just 7 percent of them. And I've been talking to every one of these colleagues in the tough (ph) districts about that. So stay tuned, there's more to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I don't know how much of that you could -- you could hear, but he basically says --

LAWLER: Yes. I heard it.

TAPPER: -- stay tuned, there's more to come. What's your reaction?

LAWLER: Yes, well, again, we've had numerous conversations and meetings about the larger health care issue. I mean, let's be honest. Since Obamacare took effect, health care premiums have risen by 96 percent. So Obamacare hasn't done what Democrats said it would do all those years ago, 15 years ago, when they said it would reduce costs. It has not.

[17:15:16]

So there are a lot of longer term reforms that we need to look at, including associated Health Plans, PBM reform, which is one of -- in the Fitzpatrick bill. There are a lot of things that the speaker is looking to put forth, but that is, to me, the longer term health care issue, the immediate issue is the premium tax credits. That is why I am fighting as hard as I can to force a vote. We have delivered enough Republican signatures on the discharge if every Democrat would join us. This is -- this is a moment for bipartisanship. This is a moment to show the American people that Washington can function and that the majority of the House, not the majority of the majority, but the majority of the House wants to get this done.

And that's why I encourage all of my colleagues, regardless of party, sign the discharge and let's have a yay or nay vote and let people show the American people where they stand.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

More breaking news, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, that's the immigrant from El Salvador who was living illegally in Maryland, he's now in the process of being released from ICE custody. We could see Garcia's release in the near future. Plus the flood emergency unfolding right now in Washington State after an atmospheric river created catastrophic flooding. We're going to their live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:36]

TAPPER: In our national lead, a scary and dangerous situation in Washington State as heavy rain from an atmospheric river is creating potentially catastrophic flooding. Already we've seen water rescues and there is a go now evacuation notice issued for parts of Pierce County where officials are currently going door to door. CNN's Veronica Miracle is in Skagit County which is northeast of Seattle where the entire 100-year flood plan has been ordered to evacuate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A state of emergency in the northwestern corner of Washington State as record breaking flooding forces mandatory evacuations from multiple cities. Some in the region have seen more than a foot of rain this week triggering what forecasters call potentially catastrophic flooding. As many as 100,000 people could face evacuations. Entire communities impacted. Homes in Gold Bar flooded. Cars submerged in water.

Businesses like this gas station with floodwaters rising up to the nozzles making them inoperable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocked, you know. I mean, we've never seen this to this extent before. MIRACLE (voice-over): A Sultan resident carried his dog out of a home as floodwaters pooled around the property. It's a familiar scene near rivers in western Washington with numerous rivers and flood stage. The Snoqualmie River is approaching record levels and roads around the valley are closing fast. The dangerous conditions have prompted multiple Swiftwater Rescues in Yakima, 18 people and their pets rescued from the flooded local rivers. Some others airlifted to safety.

In the Skagit Valley, the river near Concrete, Washington eclipsed 41ft Thursday morning, the highest in more than 20 years. Residents in Skagit County bagging sand as they brace for more rain potentially to come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can do all we can with sandbags and bring in the material, but you know that -- when that river wants to do something, it's just -- it's out of our control.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MIRACLE (on camera): And Jake, we are about two hours north of Seattle in the community of Hamilton. This is the main roadway used to come into this community and you can see behind me there are homes that are flooded here. This roadway is completely flooded out and it's what you can't really make out at the end of the road. That's quite remarkable. You can see a glint there.

The rooftop of a car. We heard from rescue crews that the Skagit County Sheriff's Department had to rescue someone from that car when they tried to drive over the flooded roadway. We've heard this from people all over the area watching cars and drivers as they try to make their way across and getting swept away. One woman said she watched as a helicopter saved someone and rescued people. We're hearing that all over and officials are asking people to heed warnings and evacuate when asked.

Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Veronica Miracle, thank you so much. Stay safe.

MIRACLE (voice-over): As the Obamacare debate plays out on Capitol Hill, there's another health emergency unfolding in the United States. It's a new measles outbreak. Hundreds of people have been quarantined now in one American state. The areas of concern next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:27:57]

TAPPER: In our health lead, 25 years ago, measles were declared eliminated in the United States. But of course, that was before vaccine denier RFK Jr. became the U.S. health secretary. And now measles cases are surging for the second time this year. Eighty-four new measles cases were reported nationwide in just the past week alone. That's according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Cases are rapidly accelerating, particularly in South Carolina. That state's health department reported 27 new cases, bringing the current outbreak to in the upstate region to 111. The total number of measles cases in South Carolina from this year is now 114.

Joining us now is Dr. Paul Offit. He's the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Dr. Offit, data on the outbreak in South Carolina's upstate region says at least 105 people of the 111 who have the virus right now never got the measles, mumps, rubella or MMR vaccine. What do you make of that?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR OF THE VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPTAL OF PHILADELPHIA: That's what makes it so heartbreaking. I mean, we have a way to prevent this, prevent the suffering, prevent the hospitalization, prevent the three deaths that have occurred this year, which equals the total number of measles deaths over the last 25 years. And this is going to get worse. And we're entering winter, December, January, February and then early spring is really when you see measles hit. And I think this is just going to get worse over the next few months.

TAPPER: RFK Jr. has been spreading his misinformed data about vaccines for about 20 years, 21 years. And at this time he's the Health secretary. And his anti-vaccine ideology is already having a major impact on public health. What would a normal science based, medicine based HHS secretary be doing right now in a situation where measles cases are growing in places such as Texas and Utah and Arizona and South Carolina? What should RFK Jr. be doing?

OFFIT: He's the secretary of Health and Human Services. What he should do is he should step up to the microphone using the considerable platform of his famous name and now his position and say, vaccinate your children. There's so much in medicine we don't know. There's so much we can't do. This we know, this we can do.

[17:30:09]

The notion that we're having --

-- of his famous name and now his position and say, vaccinate your children.

[17:30:04]

There -- there's so much in medicine we don't know. There's so much we can't do. This we know. This we can do. The notion that we're having children suffering and being in hospital -- being hospitalized and dying is unconscionable. Please, please vaccinate your children. But as you know, he's the last person to do that.

For 20 years, he's been an anti-vaccine activist, including being the executive producer of a movie that claimed that the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine caused autism. It was called Vax 2. So he's the last person to do that. And that's why he is not the person to look to in this situation.

TAPPER: Last week, RFK Jr.'s handpicked vaccine advisors voted to end the recommendation that all infants get their first dose of the hepatitis B vaccine within a day of being born. What do you tell parents who are considering delaying the first dose?

OFFIT: The same thing that the American Academy of Pediatrics has just told parents, which is that the birth dose is important to protect against the disease, which if it infects your either your infant or your young child can cause a shortened life because your child then has a high risk of cirrhosis, which is chronic liver disease or liver cancer.

So, you know, when we instituted that birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine in 1991, we eliminated this disease, which caused tens of thousands of cases and children less than 10. Now, by sort of taking somewhat of a step back, I feel that we're going to again put children at risk because it's not the ACIP anymore. It's Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s ACIP, which is not that. It's not a group of experts anymore. It's a group of people like him who are science deniers and anti- vaccine activists.

TAPPER: It's a shame that we're here. Dr. Paul Offit, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Breaking news, a judge has ordered the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. He's the undocumented immigrant who was living in Maryland. We could see his release any moment now. The case, of course, is one of many immigration issues front and center. Today, for Kristi Noem, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, a lawmaker who was at that hearing is going to join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:36:07]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you in our national lead. We're learning that Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the undocumented immigrant who lived in Maryland, has just been released from ICE custody. As you recall, he had returned to the United States after being deported to El Salvador in June. He came back after a tense legal battle over the wrongful deportation. He was allowed to be deported.

He just wasn't allowed to be deported back to El Salvador. His release today is all based on a federal judge's order, which the White House is blasting. This, as Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem earlier today defended President Trump's immigration policies during a hearing on Capitol Hill.

And joining us now, Democratic Congressman James Walkinshaw of Virginia, who serves on the House Oversight Committee. So, Congressman, I know you didn't get to question Noem in today's hearing because she left early for a FEMA review council meeting, which ended up getting canceled. What did you want to get from Noem? What information? REP. JAMES WALKINSHAW (D-VA), OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: Well, my time was focused on what I think is an emerging corruption scandal at DHS, related to the $220 million advertising campaign, where it appears that she or senior officials in her office steered taxpayer dollars to their close political and personal friends.

She did the same thing as governor of South Dakota, according to ProPublica reporting. I wanted to ask her about that. We're going to get to the bottom of that one way or the other, ultimately.

TAPPER: So I know it's been a little over three months since you were sworn in to office and after a special election. Has Noem made any effort to work with you, answer any of your questions?

WALKINSHAW: None. This administration, unless they absolutely have to, does not partner with or work with or even respond to Democrats in Congress.

TAPPER: So top officials from the National Counterterrorism Center and the FBI were also at this hearing. I want to play this moment after the FBI's operations director of the National Security Branch deemed Antifa the most immediate domestic threat to the U.S. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): So where is Antifa headquartered?

MICHAEL GLASHEEN, OPERATIONS DIRECTOR, FBI NATIONAL SECURITY BRANCH: What we're doing right now with the organization --

THOMPSON: Uh-uh, where in the United States does Antifa exist? If it's a terrorist organization and you've identified it as number one.

GLASHEEN: We are building out the infrastructure right now.

THOMPSON: Just how many people have you identified with the FBI that Antifa is made of?

GLASHEEN: Well, the investigations are active.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: That's Bennie Thompson. What did you make of that?

WALKINSHAW: Well, watching Mr. Glasheen from the FBI today, honestly, it made me sad. He's a career servant. But every time he was asked a question, it was obvious he was terrified that he might have to give an answer that Donald Trump or the Trump administration wouldn't like. I asked him whether the Proud Boys are still labeled by the FBI as an extremist organization, which was a decision made in 2018 during Trump's first term. He couldn't or wouldn't even answer that simple question.

He won't say anything that Donald Trump might disagree with. And unfortunately, that's the kind of culture of fear that we see throughout this Trump administration. TAPPER: Meanwhile, the Trump administration is criticizing the federal judge who ordered the immediate release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This is the tense legal case over this El Salvadoran man who was in the country illegally, wrongfully deported back to El Salvador. He wasn't supposed to be deported there. The DHS assistant secretary posted on social media, "This is naked judicial activism by an Obama appointed judge. This order lacks any valid legal basis, and we will continue to fight this tooth and nail on the courts." What's your reaction?

WALKINSHAW: The judicial ruling today is a huge victory for the rule of law, the Constitution, for human rights. It's a huge loss for the Trump administration. I think it's a stinging rebuke, not just of the way that they've treated Mr. Abrego Garcia, but of the lawless approach they've taken to the mass deportation effort writ large. It's been characterized by cruelty and incompetence. And the Abrego Garcia saga typifies both.

[17:40:14]

TAPPER: Congressman James Walkinshaw, Democrat of Virginia. Thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

What the White House said today about bandages on the President's hand. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Politics Lead now, the White House is defending its unprecedented move yesterday of seizing an oil tanker off the coast of Venezuela. Venezuela's government is calling the seizure international piracy. President Trump vows it was taken for a very good reason. Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt was asked, so now what at today's press briefing?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Right now, the vessel has been seized, as you know. And the Department of Justice is -- did that in conjunction with the Coast Guard and the Department of War. The vessel is currently undergoing a forfeiter process. Right now, the United States currently has a full investigative team on the ground, on the vessel. And individuals on board the vessel are being interviewed. And any relevant evidence is being seized. The vessel will go to a U.S. port. And the United States does intend to seize the oil. However, there is a legal process for the seizure of that oil, and that legal process will be followed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:45:24]

TAPPER: My panel joins me now. Alyssa Farah Griffin, Secretary -- Press Secretary Leavitt, added that President Trump does not view this move as an escalation toward war with Venezuela. So if it wasn't an escalation, what -- what was it? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, I actually think that this is a lot more clear cut from a legal standpoint than these interdictions of these so-called drug boats. So something that you're, you know, you were seeing a lot of these criticisms of these strikes on alleged drug boats that were in the Caribbean, in many cases, not even necessarily bound for the U.S.

This is something where this particular ship had been under international sanctions before. There's a very strong legal justification. But what I'm interested to see here, having worked in the first Trump term, the efforts to try to unseat Maduro were always diplomatic first.

So Mike Pence, John Bolton, Mike Pompeo in the first term worked with all the Western Hemisphere nations, all of the Organization of American States to try to get them to support Maduro leaving office, looking for a diplomatic solution. I'm very, very intrigued to see how this sort of America first, second administration, it seems to be leaning a little bit more military first in Venezuela and what that could look like in coming months and years. Because I just I don't think it's what President Trump ran on. I don't think there's an appetite for regime change. But this particular interdiction, I think, is totally legally justified.

TAPPER: Well, there -- there is legal precedent when it comes to Iranian ships being seized in previous administrations. But I guess the question is, this comes within the context of --

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, this is -- this doesn't come in isolation. This comes amid an escalating series of tactics that seem designed to pressure Maduro into leaving. I mean, this is no more about drugs than these immigration raids have been about crime. The immigration raids have been scooping up as many immigrants as possible.

Most of them haven't committed crimes here in the U.S. And this is about Maduro. It's not -- and maybe about oil. But what it isn't about is -- is drugs. Most of the -- the fentanyl, I mean, fentanyl doesn't come from Venezuela.

TAPPER: Yes.

AXELROD: So they do a good job of mixing all of this together and sort of confusing it. But this is in the context of a whole campaign, and they ought to be more transparent about what they're up to.

TAPPER: The Press Secretary was also asked earlier today about the bandages we continue to see on President Trump's hand. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The President is literally constantly shaking hands. The Oval Office is like Grand Central Terminal. He is meeting with more people than any of you even know about on a daily basis. He's also on a daily aspirin regimen, which is something his physical examinations has said in the past as well, which can contribute to that bruising that we see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, David, first of all, we haven't seen bruising like this on the hands of other presidents who also presumably shake a lot of hands or senators.

AXELROD: Really more hand -- more hands in this President.

TAPPER: Yes, well, and yes, I mean, and -- and not to mention members of the House, members of the Senate. The White House gave the same explanation for bruising back in July. Obviously, he's 79 years old. And there is something going on with his health that they're not telling us, because otherwise, why did he have that MRI?

AXELROD: Yes. I mean, look, lack of transparency is a common theme throughout all of these discussions and certainly on this. I mean, a lot of extraordinary things have happened when the President of the United States has, you know, an MRI and can't remember or name what part of the body the MRI was about.

There are -- there are questions, there are issues here. And the question is whether the American people deserve to know they were raised relative to President Biden. They should be -- they should be raised now because clearly something's going on.

TAPPER: Yes. And unless the president Trump is a self-described germaphobe, he has said he doesn't like shaking hands. Do you buy this explanation?

GRIFFIN: Listen, I know that the president does not like the dialogue around this, and I can't imagine that he loves the -- the spin from the podium today. Listen, these questions were always bound to happen. In the matchup of Biden versus Trump, we were either way going to have the oldest sitting president when he left office.

And these questions are going to continue to dog him. These questions that the public has about this MRI that he got. I think that there's going to have to be a better answer. What happens with this, we've seen it before, is the rumors and the speculation must take on a life of their own if there's not some sort of a clear medical answer.

But I think we've seen enough from the first Trump term and as far as we are in now that we're not going to get a whole lot more information than what we've gotten so far.

AXELROD: Here's a better answer. How about the truth? How about facts? That would be good.

[17:50:03]

TAPPER: Yes. And -- and obviously, you know, Biden is -- what happened with Biden is instructive. We need to. Here's a better answer. How about the truth? How about facts? That would be good.

Yes. And obviously, you know, Biden is what happened with Biden is instructive. We need to know more. Mike Lindell, known best as the MyPillow guy, CEO, staunch Trump supporter. He announced he's running for governor of Minnesota. Now, he has long been embroiled in lawsuits tied to his endless push about the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.

Alyssa, can he win the nomination and the governorship if he has Trump behind him?

GRIFFIN: Listen, it's possible he could get the nomination, but there will be Democrats across Minnesota and across the country celebrating if he gets the nomination. I believe the last Republican to win statewide in Minnesota was Tim Pawlenty, who was a popular figure within the state.

But this is -- this is a problem that's often come up in the Trump era, where if the President puts his finger on the scale in primaries, he often backs loyalists who themselves are oftentimes, like Mike Lindell, would be far less electable in a general election. This is a state that Kamala Harris won by more than four points. I don't think Mike Lindell is going to be the next governor of Minnesota.

TAPPER: Governor Walz could be vulnerable because of that huge scandal with all that fraud.

AXELROD: Look, any governor running for a third term is vulnerable. And yes, I think he is vulnerable because of that, but not to this guy.

TAPPER: Not to MyPillow guy. Thanks, everyone. Appreciate it.

She used to be married to one of the richest men in the world. These days, MacKenzie Scott is giving away her money. One of the recipients of her millions, her generosity, is going to join us next here on The Lead. Stay with us.

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[17:55:42]

TAPPER: In our Money Lead, $7.1 billion. Billion, with a B. That's how much money author and philanthropist, MacKenzie Scott, has donated to dozens of nonprofit organizations just this year. Scott, of course, is the ex-wife of Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. Since their divorce in 2019, Scott has given more than $26 billion to various charitable causes. One of the communities greatly impacted by these donations, Robeson Community College in Lumberton, North Carolina, which is south of Raleigh.

The college received an historic $24 million gift from Scott. That's the largest single amount in the school's 60-year history. And joining us now is the president of Robeson Community College, Melissa Singler. And Melissa, congratulations to you and your school on this incredible gift. How did you first learn about it? And what's MacKenzie Scott's connection to your school?

MELISSA SINGLER, PRESIDENT, ROBESON COMMUNITY COLLEGE: Well, we learned about the gift several weeks ago. And we don't have a direct relationship with Ms. Scott. We did not apply for these funds. They do a process, I think they call it quiet research, and we're just so grateful that we were selected as one of the colleges that she decided to gift.

TAPPER: So what will this money do for the college and its students? Is there something the college wanted to do before, but you couldn't afford to do, and now you can?

SINGLER: Well, the -- this gift is truly transformative. We are in the process now of unpacking this. Yes, we will be meeting and planning. You know, we look at it, the financial side of it, but it's truly an affirmation about the hard work and the dedication our faculty and staff have for our students and the community that we serve.

One of the things that I personally would like to see is the ability to make sure that any student who wants to attend Robeson Community College will be able to do so regardless of their financial situation. So we want to make sure that students have access.

TAPPER: How many students do you have? Who -- what community are you serving here, and -- and why do you think Robeson was chosen?

SINGLER: We have about 10,000 students, 33,000 of those are curriculum students, and about 7,000 of those are short-term workforce students. I think we were chosen because they believed in our mission and the work that we were doing, and, you know, I think our folks do great work, and it has resulted in this gift.

TAPPER: If you had a chance to say something to MacKenzie Scott about the gift, what -- what would you say?

SINGLER: You know, sometimes words fail to convey the depth of gratitude that you feel for something like this, so the best I can do is to say thank you. But it's a thank you on a level that I cannot express in language. This has truly changed the trajectory of our school. It's changed the -- the way we're going to think about students and meeting their needs. It's changed how we are going to think about designing our classes and curriculum. It's going to give us the latitude to think more boldly and to be able to support our students more fully. This is huge.

TAPPER: Yes. It's going to help thousands and thousands of people in rural North Carolina. What a wonderful gift. Melissa Singler, thank you so much for your time.

SINGLER: Thank you.

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, a massive rebuke of President Trump from Republicans Indiana. In a vote right before the show, majority of the Indiana state Senate's Republican caucus rejected President Trump's redistricting push despite a rather aggressive pressure campaign from the President and his top allies. So what happens now?

[18:00:03] Also, less than a year after that deadly crash above Washington, D.C.'s Reagan National Airport that killed 67 --