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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump's Chief Of Staff Gives Candid Interviews To Vanity Fair; New Video Shows Heroic Efforts To Stop Shooters; New Enhanced Video Of Person Of Interest In Brown University Shooting; Some Republicans Decry Trump's Rob Reiner Comments; LAPD Release New Photos Of Rob Reiner's Son. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired December 16, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

And The Lead tonight is our Politics Lead, shocking quotes from the White House chief of staff, Susie Wiles, in a Vanity Fair profile by Journalist Chris Whipple, who's something of an expert on White House chiefs of staff. Among the most explosive, her comments, the first ever woman chief of staff of the White House, the daughter of an alcoholic, former broadcaster Pat Summerall, said to Whipple, quote, Wiles said that Trump has, quote, an alcoholic's personality.

[18:00:02]

He, quote, operates with a view that there's nothing, he can't do, nothing, zero, nothing.

Vice President JD Vance going from never Trumper to MAGA stalwart, Vance's, quote, conversion came when he was running for the Senate and I think his conversion was a little bit more sort of political than others, also adding at Vance that he's been a conspiracy theorist for a decade, quote/unquote.

The last quote, a reference to the Epstein file, saying Vance was one of only a handful of officials in the Trump administration who understood how the refusal of the administration to release the Epstein files would upset parts of Trump's coalition. Wiles says, Attorney General Pam Bondy and her handling of that, quote, I think she completely whiffed on appreciating that that was the very targeted group that cared about this. First, she gave them binders full of nothingness, and then she said that the witness list or the client list was on her desk. There is no client list, and it sure as hell wasn't on her desk.

Wiles said that -- told the author, Whipple, that she'd read what she calls the Epstein file and she said, Trump is in the file and we know he is in the file and he is not doing -- he's not in the file doing anything un awful. Wiles said that Trump, quote, was on Epstein's plane, he's on the manifest. They were, you know, sort of young, single, whatever. I know it's a passe word, but sort of young, single playboys together, unquote. As for being young at the time, one might note that Mr. Trump turned 50 in 1996.

Whipple says that he talked to Wiles 11 times for this profile. And when asking her in March about criticism that Trump was using the Justice Department to punish his critics, quote, I don't think he wakes up thinking about retribution, Wiles said, but when there's an opportunity, he will go for it.

And then there is this exchange where Whipple says, do you ever go into Trump and say, look, this is not supposed to be a retribution tour? Yes, I do, she replied. We have a loose agreement that the score settling will end before the first 90 days are over, unquote.

Now, that was earlier in the year. Later in August, Whipple reminded Wiles of what she'd said, quote, I don't think he's on a retribution tour, she said. A governing principle for him is I don't want what happened to me to happen to somebody else, and so people that have done bad things need to get out of the government.

In some cases, it may look like retribution, and there may be an element of that from time to time. Who would blame him? Not me. Whipple says. So, all of this talk about accusing Letitia James of mortgage fraud? Well, that one -- that might be the one retribution, Wiles says. In a statement to CNN, Letitia James' attorney, Abbe Lowell, calls that an astonishing admission.

Now, what about Trump using the Justice Department to reward MAGA criminals? Whipple writes that, quote, did she ever ask the president? Wait a minute, do you really want to pardon all 1,500 January 6 convicts, or should we be more selective? I did exactly that, Wiles replied. I said, I'm on board with the people that were happenstance or didn't do anything violent.

Wiles added, quote, in every case of the ones he was looking at, in every case, they had already served more time than the sentencing guidelines would've suggested. So, given that I sort of got on board, unquote. We should note that is not true. Many of those pardons served less time than guidelines suggest.

The former Department of Government Efficiency had Elon Musk, who played a role in firing thousands of government employees and his reposting of a tweet about public sector workers killing millions under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, Wiles said, quote, I think that's when he was microdosing.

Now, Wiles today denied saying that about Musk microdosing, calling the quote ridiculous and adding, quote, I wouldn't have said it and I wouldn't know.

The New York Times reached out to Chris Whipple, who played an audio recording of Susie Wiles saying exactly what he had reported. Wiles says of Musk's sudden and the severe dismantling of USAID, which provided lifesaving aid around the world, quote, I was initially aghast. He decided that it was a better approach to shut it down, fire everybody, shut them out, and then go rebuild. Not the way I would do it.

On Monday night, we should note, the Pentagon struck three more alleged drug trafficking boats. It's an effort the administration has repeatedly said it's entirely about protecting Americans from dangerous drugs. But Wiles in this interview says this is about more than that. It's about Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro. Quote, Wiles told me about Trump's Venezuela strategy, quote, he wants to keep on blowing boats up until Maduro cries uncle. And people way smarter than me on that say that he will, unquote. So, at least part of this campaign is for regime change.

Journalist Michael Kinsley once famously said that a gaffe is, quote, when a politician tells the truth, or more precisely where he or she accidentally reveals something truthful about what's going on in his or her head. This interview was full of gaffes and a lot of accidentally revealed truths.

[18:05:00]

There's a lot to discuss here. Let's talk about it with CNN Anchor and Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins, along with the Dispatch's Jonah Goldberg.

Kaitlan, we've seen a lot of reaction to this interview. White House officials are one after the other, talking about how great Susie Wiles is, which the article doesn't say she isn't, and how the media is crap when all it did was just provide her quotes. President Trump said that to the New York Post, quote, I didn't read it, but I don't read Vanity Fair, but she's done a fantastic job. I think, from what I hear, the facts were wrong and it was a very misguided interview or purposely misguided.

We should also note that this Vanity Fair profile has a number of photographs of the administration officials posing for pictures for this article.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, the Vanity Fair staffers who went, said they were there for, I think, eight to nine hours the day they did that photo shoot and conducted it and brought everyone in. I think between 7:00 and 8:00 this morning when this story published, my phone is basically blowing up with people shocked, because this felt like something very Trump round one coded, something that would've happened in the first term, where a chief of staff speaks incredibly bluntly on the record, criticizes the sitting attorney general for how she handled something that has become one of the biggest vulnerability points for the president with his base on the Epstein files.

And, mainly, people were just shocked because Susie Wiles is someone who is very disciplined, very effective chief of staff. That's why so many people are praising her today. And a lot of them were surprised at how candidly she spoke in these 11 interviews. It wasn't like just one sit-down with a reporter or where they brought someone in. It was 11 separate interviews over, you know, the course of Trump's second term in office that this has happened. And I just heard from a lot of people who work there, who like Susie Wiles and deeply respect her, but were stunned by this.

And I think, really, the -- you know, despite what they say, they're attacking the media, saying it's the media going after them or the left going after them, it is her own words and it does undercut a lot of what you've heard these officials say on the record, whether that's on the boat strikes, whether that's on tariffs and the effectiveness of them, whether that's on the Justice Department's handling of the Epstein files. She kind of undercut all of that, including the work that Elon Musk did with DOGE.

TAPPER: Yes. What was your reaction to it, Jonah?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I don't disagree with any of that except in one sense, I think the reputation that has hurt the most in this is Wiles herself. And not just for talking to Vanity Fair, but her reputation was that she was someone who like ran a tight ship, manage the president, and yet time and time again, she's revealing these episodes where she had a plan about how to deal with things, about how to roll out the tariff stuff. She had suggestions about the pardons and all these kinds of things.

And when these things happened, at the time, people like me would say, this is shambolic. They don't know what they're doing. They don't have a plan. And all of MAGA world would say, you don't know what you're talking about. This is four dimensional chess. Of course, they know exactly what they're doing. And, of course, she's just revealed I was right and they were all wrong, that, in fact, he didn't do what she wanted him to do on pardons, she didn't do what she wanted -- he didn't do what she wanted him to do on tariffs, that they didn't have a coherent strategy. And she's the chief of staff. She's the one who's supposed to be imposing a coherent strategy.

So, I think she undermined herself as much as she undermined a lot of the talking points of the administration.

TAPPER: So, J.D. Vance responded earlier today to Wiles saying that he's been a conspiracy theorist for at least a decade. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: And I haven't looked at the article. I, of course, have heard about it. But conspiracy theorist, sometimes I am a conspiracy theorist, but I only believe in the conspiracy theories that are true.

And, by the way, Susie and I have joked in private and in public about that for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, I can think of at least one conspiracy theory that wasn't true that he not only believed him, but pushed was the thing about Haitians eating the dogs and cats. That was disproved. They never apologized.

COLLINS: And also the DOJ cover-up of the Epstein files when he was not the vice president. I mean, he is one of the people who was on the record talking about releasing them and why they wouldn't release them, saying, you know, no one should have any issue with them coming out. TAPPER: So, he said the big lesson is that nobody in the Trump administration should talk to the mainstream media anymore. That's what he said.

COLLINS: I do think that might change their strategy. But I think this also reveals something where the administration says one thing and does another. I mean, they are very critical of the mainstream media time and time again. Obviously, it's their go-to strategy when a negative story or a story they don't like comes out. But they chose to sit for these interviews with Chris Whipple, someone who's deeply respected and speaks to lots of chiefs of staff that have worked in Democrat and Republican administrations.

But all of these officials also spoke to him and also did this photo shoot with Vanity Fair. So, I think for an administration that tells the right and right wing media, they disdain mainstream media. I mean, they are the ones who granted them all this access, which is why, to your point, their defenses have not really, you know, held ground.

GOLDBERG: Also just on the Vance part, there is a -- you know, Susie Wiles, a longtime veteran, serious politico from Florida.

[18:10:04]

TAPPER: Yes.

GOLDBERG: There does have a vibe in there that she was talking about how Marco Rubio is a man of principle, who wouldn't violate his principles. And J.D. changed his principles because he was running for the Senate.

TAPPER: Right.

GOLDBERG: It feels like in the sweepstakes between Marco and Vance, where the two front runners run for president in 2028, she's siding with Marco, which is interesting.

TAPPER: My takeaway would be that I think the most consequential things she said are, one, she suggested that this campaign against the alleged narco-terrorists in the Caribbean is for regime change.

GOLDBERG: Right.

TAPPER: That's a big revelation. And that they just -- she just handed Abbe Lowell and Letitia James a huge argument if she ever is indicted again, which seems problematic, at the very least.

Kaitlan and Jonah, thank you so much. The author of this explosive Vanity Fair interview will be on the lead tomorrow, but you don't have to wait that long. You can watch him tonight on AC360 with Anderson Cooper. And tonight on Kaitlan's show, don't miss her brand new interview with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, the outgoing Republican from Georgia. Oh, yes, she still has a few days left before her resignation. That's on the source with Kaitlan Collins tonight at 9:00 Eastern, and all here on CNN. The very first funerals for the victims of the Bondi Beach massacre in Australia are about to begin. We're going to go live to Australia next. We're going to be learning details about the background of the alleged shooters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead today, just minutes from now, the very first funeral for one of the 15 victims killed at Sunday's mass shooting on Bondi Beach, an act of anti-Semitic terrorism, this one, this funeral, is for Rabbi Eli Schlanger, the man who organized Sunday's Hanukkah event that is the site of all this horrific death.

Meanwhile, investigators have new insight into the motives of the suspected father/son duo who carried out allegedly the anti-Semitic attack, which officials say appeared to be inspired by the terrorist group ISIS.

CNN's Will Ripley has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): New dash cam video reveals the first minutes of the Bondi Beach massacre and two bystanders bravely trying to stop the attack. A husband and wife confront the older gunman, the father, Sajid Akram, leaving his car, rifle in hand. Watch closely. The man in the purple shirt drags the attacker to the ground, wrestles for control, rips the gun out of his hands, swinging it almost like a bat. The gunman takes another rifle from his car opening fire on the man and woman. Australian media is identifying them as possibly the first two victims of Sunday's attack.

The video also reveals a crucial piece of evidence. Look at the windshield. You see that black flag bearing what appears to be the logo of the Islamic State.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: It would appear that there is evidence that this was inspired by a terrorist organization by ISIS.

RIPLEY: Investigators are now looking beyond Australia. Police say the shooters recently traveled to the Southern Philippines, a region long plagued by ISIS-inspired violence. Philippine officials say the pair arrived on November 1st for military-style training, leaving nearly four weeks later, returning to Australia just over two weeks before opening fire on Bondi Beach.

More than 24 hours after the shooting, Bondi Beach remained an active crime scene. You have police tape blocking off the whole area. There's this outdoor cinema where people basically drop their stuff and ran. The whole area, kind of feels eerily frozen in time.

Video is also emerging of the younger gunman, the son, Naveed Akram. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allah will award you for whatever action to do in his cause. Inshallah, this will save you on the day of judgment.

RIPLEY: A Sydney-based Islamic Street preaching group confirms Akram appeared in a handful of videos in 2019, handing out pamphlets during public outreach. The group says Akram was just 17 at the time. They insist they've had no contact with him since.

In a statement, the group says, it's horrified by the attack and appalled by the actions of both father and son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're allowed to have strong views, but to go and do that, like it's just wrong.

RIPLEY: Lucky (ph) told CNN Affiliate Nine News he's a former coworker of the younger shooter he calls Nav. He says Nav quit his brick lane job about a month ago and often talked about his love of hunting.

REPORTER: It looked like he could handle a gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes, well he had -- like we used to talk about going shooting down at Crookwell and he'd say I -- he actually said to me once, I said, oh, we should go for a shot down there one day. And he goes, oh, I don't know if that'd be good for you. And I thought, well, okay, that's a bit weird. But, yes, he was a bit of a weird cat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And our thanks to Will Ripley for that report.

Joining us now, Noa Tishby, because Sunday's attack follows a steep rise in anti-Semitic incidents in Australia, more than 3,700 anti- Semitic incidents since the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel two years ago, according to the advocacy group, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry. Two times New York Times bestselling author Noa Tishby is also Israel's former special envoy for combating anti- Semitism. Thanks so much for joining us, Noah.

So, minutes from now, Rabbi Schlanger's funeral is going to take place. This is a community you know well. You lived in Australia. You even had a view of Bondi Beach at one point. What have you been hearing from Australian Jews since the attack?

NOA TISHBY, FORMER SPECIAL ENVOY FOR COMBATING ANTI-SEMITISM: I've been hearing a lot of anger from everybody in Australia, and I'll tell you why. Because the last two and a half years we have been communicating with them and they have been complaining relentlessly that this is about to happen. The rise in anti-Semitism and Israel- related Jew hatred around the world has been staggering, and we cannot ignore it anymore because it's causing deaths.

So, the rise in anti-Semitism in Australia has been five times, in the U.S., right here, three times, the U.K., 1.5 times, and in France, 2.5 times since October 7th. I was just in Paris a week and a half ago and stumbled upon a demonstration, 50,000 pro-Hamas demonstrators yelling anti-Semitic chants. [18:20:00]

I was interviewing them, asking questions, and one of the girls asked me if I am a Zionist, and I said, yes. I was born and raised in Israel. Being a Zionist only means that Israel has the right to exist, and they attacked us. They were yelling, chasing after us. So, we know it when we see it, as we are aware of that phrase, and we know what this is. These are not peaceful demonstrations. They're anti-Semitic demonstrations. And they need to be handled properly, or this is going to continue and it's going to come here as well.

TAPPER: Yes. I mean, a demonstration against the current Israeli government and the war and Gaza is one thing, but that demonstration turning into people chanting hundreds, thousands of people chanting gas the Jews, which happened in Australia, that's another thing.

Today, the prime minister of Australia said that he's res ready to revisit legislation to help, quote, stamp out anti-Semitism. Shortly after this attack, you posted, quote, this is a failure of leadership. What should the government do to prevent future attacks?

TISHBY: There are a few things. First of all, the Albanese government has woke up too little too late, but we'll take it at this point as well. And this is something that the entire world needs to pay attention to. We need strong language against this. So, a part of the problem that the Australian community has had in the past two and a half years is that the Albanese government said nothing about all these anti-Semitic incidences, attacks and burning of synagogues and attacks on the Jewish community.

So, we need strong language. We need strong actions against the perpetrators of these offenses. And we should all consider adopting the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. The IHRA definition of anti- Semitism is the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti- Semitism, which is a non-binding, non-legal definition, which can actually help us understand what anti-Semitism is. A lot of people just don't understand what it is, and we need to do this in order to stop this hate.

TAPPER: Noah Tishby, thank you so much and thanks for your leadership on this issue. I appreciate it.

TISHBY: Thank you. Thank you so much.

TAPPER: Brand new information revealed just moments ago in the manhunt for a person of interest in the Brown University shooting, including where surveillance cameras are and are not placed on campus. The mayor of Providence, Rhode Island, is going to join us live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: So, breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead in Rhode Island, police released a new enhanced video of what they're calling, what authorities are calling a person of interest in the Brown University shooting on Saturday, in which two students were killed and nine others were wounded, seven of whom still remain in the hospital, this on what is now day four of a manhunt with an unidentified killer on the loose and a community on edge.

Joining us now is the mayor of Providence, Rhode Island, Brett Smiley. Mayor Smiley, thanks for take taking the time to talk to us. I hope you're taking care of yourself in these stressful circumstances.

In the last hour at a press conference, you were asked whether the suspect was still in Providence, and you said that you've not received a single, credible, significant threat to the Providence community. With all due respect, that's not really an answer as to whether the man who shot and killed these two students is still in providence or believed to be in the state. What do you -- what is your answer to that question and what's your message to the people of Providence who are still afraid?

MAYOR BRETT SMILEY (D), PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND: Yes. I mean, the chief of police was asked the question about the location of the person of interest. And our investigation is ongoing. The leads that we're running down are giving us more information regularly but the location of the individual right now is not known.

My message to the community is that we are doing everything possible to help them take the first tentative steps forward because, one way or another, right now, residents, you know, my neighbors, you know, they still need to go to work, the kids still need to go to school. And so we're providing enhanced police protection and visible coverage. It's hard to go a block or two without seeing a police officer right now in my city to provide that confidence and sense of safety and security for neighbors that have to take some steps forward.

And so that is the best way we can help them right now to have the courage and the resolve and the confidence necessary to start to take those first steps forward.

TAPPER: Providence Police today asked again for the public to send in any videos they have that might include this person of interest that we're showing on the screen right now. Do you feel like you're playing catch up with this investigation? How is it that somebody can walk into a classroom at Brown University, shoot at least 11 people and then apparently just walk out and disappear?

SMILEY: I mean, we're certainly continuing to gather more leads and we are making forward progress in just the 24 hours that have eclipsed. Recently, we've released multiple additional new videos, which give us better information about the possible path that the person of interest took, which then enables us to then go gather new evidence in a better direction. And that's how these things go.

You know, there was a very preliminary video that was released almost immediately that I think a lot of people have seen. It didn't give us a lot of details other than a direction of travel. And from that then, we've now started to piece together multiple videos. And today, we disclosed that not only do we have on video at approximately 2:00 P.M. before what was a 4:00 P.M. shooting, but that we now have evidence that he was in the area at around 10:00 A.M.

[18:30:13]

And so as each one of these new pieces of information comes up, then we're able to then go look in a better direction. And that's how these things go.

And so we're making progress. I know I speak for my community and that we would like to have this case solved immediately. But it's going to take the time it's going to take and I want the residents in my community to know and really around the country who are watching this because this, you know, engenders fear and concern of any kid on a college campus and anyone who's been around gun violence in our community, that all of the resources that we could possibly need are here. And so it is not a lack of resources, it's just the dogged police work that is necessary to solve a crime like this.

TAPPER: The question I asked is one I'm sure that you asked behind the scenes, the one of like how on earth does it happen that somebody can walk into a prestigious university, like Brown, or any school that has thousands of students and faculty and support staff shoot at least 11 people and then apparently walk out and disappear. And I don't say that because I think law enforcement's done anything wrong or anything.

You know, I have confidence the person's going to be caught, et cetera. But what's your answer to that question? Because I'm sure it's one that you ask too. What is the -- how does that happen? Are there just not as many cameras up as we think, that there isn't as much law enforcement in Providence or at Brown University as one might think? Like how did that happen?

SMILEY: Yes. So, first of all, I mean, for people watching around the country, I don't think it matters that it's a prestigious university. We've all seen horrific acts of gun violence in public schools and in other public settings. And so that just because it's a great school and it is --

TAPPER: No. I just mean that they have a lot of money. That's all I meant by prestigious, is that they have a lot of funding, that's all, that you would think that there would be more cameras and more security.

SMILEY: So, Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Neronha just spoke recently an hour ago at our press conference and explained, and I think some folks might know I live on the edge of campus, Brown is different than maybe some universities in that it is very much integrated with a residential neighborhood. It is -- there's no wall around the campus.

There are no gates. It -- you know, our neighbors walk our dogs through campus, and we love that about Brown and students love that about Brown. This building is on the literal edge of the campus, and the person of interest walked out the door that, as soon as he stepped onto the sidewalk, was no longer on campus. And so the president of Brown spoke about an hour and a half ago and reported that there's something like 1200 cameras on campus, but this individual was off campus the minute he stepped out of that door and into a residential neighborhood. And so the camera footage that you are seeing is footage that we have gotten through the hard work of Providence Police and the FBI and the cooperation of the community. It's part of the reason we keep asking for the community's help so much is because even though this occurred on campus, the route of travel and all of the video evidence you've seen other than that very first video has been video from off campus, from my community.

And so the questions around how could this happen on an institution like Brown, the path that we're following for this person of interest is actually off campus.

TAPPER: That really helps. I'm being completely sincere. That helps me understand this much more and I hope our viewers as well.

Mayor Brett Smiley, thank you so much and good luck in the coming days. I hope you all catch him as soon as possible.

SMILEY: Thank you.

TAPPER: Secretary of Defense, Pete Seth says the public will not get to see that deadly boat strike video at the center of this controversial debate, and it's not even clear that some key senators are going to get to see it. Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, who is said to have sparred with Hegseth earlier today in a closed door briefing, that senator will join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

TAPPER: Back with our Politics Lead, Senate Democrats are fuming over a classified briefing today with the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, and the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, after Democrats say the officials declined to show them the unedited video of this controversial follow-up strike on an alleged Venezuelan drug vessel in the Caribbean.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): This briefing left me with more questions than answers.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If they can't be transparent on this, how can you trust their transparency on all the other issues swirling about in the Caribbean?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This all comes as Secretary Hegseth says the video will not be released to the public beyond the part that they already released to the public. Let's bring in Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly. And, Senator, you said when you came out of the briefing, you have more questions than answers, as has also been said. Sources say you also got into a bit of an argument with Secretary Hegseth. What can you tell us about that and also the briefing?

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Well, it seems like he came there with a little bit of a speech for me, which says again a lot about him. Even in this closed briefing with a bunch of senators, he's focused on this thing about me and didn't even want to get to my questions. I had some very specific questions for him about these boat strikes, and he feels a need to give a speech. I think it, again, shows how unserious this guy is.

TAPPER: But what was he saying? I mean, I obviously --

KELLY: Well, he gave me a little speech about the stuff that was in the video and what he thinks about it. And it -- I guess it didn't really surprise me because, you know, at this point, about ten months in, we know who this guy is. He is unqualified for this job. He can't even focus on, you know, answering our questions.

[18:45:00]

We get into this brief, and, by the way, it's sort of his brief and Marco Rubio's, but they bring four other individuals, so there's six of them, and they basically filibustered. Every one of them got to speak for about five or ten minutes. That took up 35 to 40 minutes. We got 20 minutes for questions and maybe six out of a hundred of us got to ask some question of them.

So, you know, being in the Senate, you know a little bit about filibustering and trying to slow this down because they don't want accountability on this.

TAPPER: So, in addition to the idea of this follow on strike, whether or not shooting at survivors allegedly in the water, I didn't see the video, so I don't know --

KELLY: Yes, I'll see it tomorrow.

TAPPER: -- whether or not that was legal according to the laws of war, et cetera, there's the whole question about the justification for all of this.

KELLY: Right.

TAPPER: And I don't know if you saw, but the Pentagon has long maintained obviously that the motivation is to stop these drugs from coming into this country because they're killing Americans. But in the Vanity Fair interview with Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, she says, quote, that Trump, quote, wants to keep on blowing boats up until Maduro, Nicolas Maduro, the head of Venezuela, cries uncle and people way smarter than me on that say, he will. That would suggest that this is actually a campaign to push regime change, not what the stated purpose is. KELLY: Right. And that makes sense. Because if you remember when this started back in September, right, the first strike, September 2nd, they initially said this is about like fentanyl coming into the country. Well, fentanyl comes in through our land port of entries, mostly. These routes are taking other drugs, cocaine, to Caribbean islands and then, you know, these routes go onto Europe and Western Africa. This isn't about drugs coming into the United States. So, what is it? Is it regime change? Some people say it's about access to oil. I think the president needs to be very clear.

And, by the way, like Susie Wiles, the president's chief of Staff, said today in that article that was released, if he starts doing land strikes, he needs to get approval from Congress to do this. I think he should for the boat strikes as well, because, I mean, they've tied themselves in knots. They give different reasons. Sometimes they say it's about the boats, sometimes it's about the drugs, sometimes it's about the people. And now, according to her, it's about getting rid of Maduro.

TAPPER: So, let's talk about the fact that the Pentagon says that you're now facing this official command investigation over that video that you and five other lawmakers put out, in which you said that service members should not follow illegal orders, which is something that Pete Hegseth in his previous life as a Fox News commentator also said.

You said on Morning Joe you hadn't heard anything official from the Department of Defense about this, but they say that you're now facing an official command investigation.

KELLY: Right.

TAPPER: How does that --

KELLY: Well, I still haven't heard anything official. I see stuff on Twitter or reported. He didn't even today say anything except his, you know, short speech where he was rather animated about it. But the last thing I heard from the Navy officially about my service to the Navy was 14 years ago when I retired, and they gave me a legion merit for my service.

So, again, you know, that shows how unserious they are. They want attention over this. But in some ways, this is rather serious because this is intimidation. They're trying to intimidate me, to send a message to other retired members of the military, you better be careful what you say. Because if they can intimidate me, if they can get me to back down as a United States senator, how many people out there, you know, they're retired from the military or just left the military, former service members, people on active duty, will hesitate before they speak up about this administration?

And then, you know, that's the slippery slope to us starting to lose our democracy. We have First Amendment rights to speak out against about our government. And I said something that was lawful. I said follow the law. It was the truth. And the president didn't like what I said, and for that he said I should be killed, executed. I mean, who is this guy? And if he thinks I'm going to back down, he picked the wrong guy, because that is not happening.

TAPPER: Democratic Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona, thank you so much for being here.

KELLY: Thank you. I appreciate it.

TAPPER: Coming up next, the notable names calling out President Trump after his downright insensitive comments after the murder of celebrated film director Rob Reiner and his wife, Michele.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:48:20]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, more fallout from President Trump's disparaging remarks on beloved Hollywood director Rob Reiner, whom police say was murdered alongside his wife by their own son. Trump callously blamed Reiner's death on Trump derangement syndrome and said he was, quote, bad for our country.

Today, Jim Geraghty of the conservative magazine, "The National Review", is out with a blistering takedown of Trump's comments, writing quote, "I'll let you decide whether the term psychopath or sociopath better describes the president's actions. Donald Trump's entire worldview of whether someone is a good person or a bad person depends entirely on whether that person offers praise or criticism of Trump. This is the person who runs the executive branch of the U.S. government, and this is a formula for disaster," unquote.

Our panel is here.

Joe, I -- I know you're a Republican, but I know you would never even dream of saying or defending anything like that. So, I just want to get that out of the get that off.

I wonder how much -- I mean, I see a lot of commenters on the right on social media, and some, like Erick Erickson, are saying like, those are horrible comments and people shouldn't be defending them. And then there are people who are defending them and then there are people. It seems like most Republicans commentators, anyway, are like, this is who Trump is. We're not going to change him. Who cares?

JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER GOP STRATEGIST: As someone who grew up admiring the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush model, which you may or may not agree with on substance, but they're classy guys, who served in the military, who treated people with respect, who would never be caught doing anything like this. It's so disappointing that this is the current and possibly future of the Republican Party, is this nasty, personal, emotional, street fighting model.

[18:50:03] Unfortunately, I think there's a slice of the MAGA crowd that actually likes this sort of thing. And I think for most Republicans who are willing to vote for Donald Trump and hold their nose, I think that what they'll say is if you put him on the spot, well, we ran gentlemen like John McCain and Mitt Romney, and we lost. And so, Trump's a fighter. And so that's why we're going to stick with him despite this kind of stuff.

TAPPER: But they also ran gentlemen like Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush. And they won.

MORENO: And you have to hope that we go back to that model. But it's unclear where we are now.

TAPPER: I mean, kudos to Jim Geraghty at "The National Review", where you know that that is not preaching to the choir. There's no -- there's no upside other than intellectual integrity for him to say this, but he also said, quote, the guy who cant feel empathy for the Reiner is being stabbed to death by their son is also not going to feel empathy for the people who contend the cost of living is still high, which is why the president keeps running around insisting the word affordability is a Democratic hoax and that Americans are living in a golden age.

Well, what do you -- what are you hearing about this?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That -- that's right. And that look, Democrats need to take things like this, which seem that, you know, why would this matter to most people and say, this is why it matters exactly the way it was framed there? Because this is a person who's making decisions that impact your lives. And if he has no empathy for, you know, the fact that actually people are making tough decisions, its the holidays about, are we going to have a meal or am I going to buy an extra toy?

TAPPER: Unemployment's up.

FINNEY: Right. Unemployment is up. Inflation continues to be up. Despite what the president says.

And so, I think this issue, when we talk about character matters. So, it does. And what Democrats are sort of talking about and thinking about as we look to next year is how do we make that an issue for the election, but really make it clear to Americans this is why it actually does matter.

You know, for those who might say, but that's just who he is. Well, okay. But this is also someone who is comfortable with children being zip tied in the cold streets of Chicago while their parents are being deported.

TAPPER: So, Joe, Vice President Vance was asked about this affordability issue when he was in Pennsylvania earlier today. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When we go out there and we tell our story, that gasoline and energy got way too high under Joe Biden's administration. But we've lowered the cost of energy. The American people will understand that. They know Rome wasn't built in a day. They know what Joe Biden broke is not going to get fixed in a week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It has been 330 days since President Trump took office. How long do you think that argument will be convincing to voters?

MORENO: If things aren't drastically different by the midterms, it will not resonate well at all. I mean, again, another reference back to my youth, Ronald Reagan in 1981, he basically said, look, Jimmy Carter dug us into a hole. I've helped pass tax cuts. I've done what I can stay the course.

Trump can say the same thing. It might work out for him, it might not. But it's going to be the number one determining factor both in the midterms and as we get into 2028.

FINNEY: He never said in 2024 during the election, hey, it's going to take a little while, but then we're going to get back on track, he said. I'm going to get it done within 24 hours. And I think even though people probably didn't think that was true, they thought it would be a few weeks, maybe a month or two, not.

Here we are at the end of the year, my health care costs are about to go up. Bills are going to come due next year. Hard to see how he's going to bring down inflation. And so, you know, obviously I have to admit I'm looking at the vice president with the chief of staffs remarks about him in ringing in my -- in my mind.

TAPPER: Susie Wiles in "Vanity Fair", saying that he was a -- she questioned the sincerity of his conversion to MAGA.

FINNEY: Correct. That being said, -- you know, he can go out there and say, oh yeah, once we start telling our story again, I've said this to you before, who else said that? Joe Biden --

TAPPER: Yeah.

FINNEY: Right? How many times did we say once they just tell their story? Well, it didn't work out.

TAPPER: It's always a comms problem.

FINNEY: It is, right?

TAPPER: Joe, what was your response to the Susie Wiles "Vanity Fair" article today? A lot of quotes that they're all pretending that the quotes are made up or its the liberal media, blah, blah, blah, but, I mean, these are her candid thoughts about the administration, and some of them are pretty shocking. MORENO: Baffling. I mean, she is known -- I've never met her, but she is known in Republican circles to be so disciplined, so level-headed, and not one to sort of get in front of the spotlight for the sake of it. So, the fact that she said these things, my impression and were talking about it beforehand this is the -- these are the statements of someone who is trying to distance herself and clean up her own record.

And so, whether or not she has this job in a week or in a month, I think that's beside the point. I think she's laying the groundwork to separate herself from the Trump administration by saying, hey, look, I know better. Even if they didn't listen to me.

FINNEY: As a comms person, bad staff work. What were the ground rules, baby, before you open your mouth?

TAPPER: Well, a lot of glossy photographs of White House officials.

FINNEY: Yeah, apparently so.

TAPPER: Thanks to both of you.

Some new images just in from the moments after the arrest of Nick Reiner, the son of film director Rob Reiner, who's being charged with his father and mother's murder.

[18:55:02]

We're going to -- we're going to have that, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: This just in, the Los Angeles Police Department released new images showing officers arresting Nick Reiner, the 32-year-old son of celebrated film director Rob Reiner, Sunday night. Today, the L.A. district attorney charged the son with two counts of first degree murder for the death of Rob and Michele Reiner.

The charges carry a maximum sentence of either life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. The district attorney also said prosecuting cases involving families are the most heart wrenching because quite often the murders are the most brutal.

Also today, authorities near Boston say they have no suspect in custody in the apparent murder of an MIT professor shot at his home. Forty-seven-year-old Nuno Loureiro died at a local hospital this morning after the Monday night shooting in Brookline, Massachusetts. Last hour, Providence, Rhode Island police today said they had no awareness of any connection with the shooting at Brown University, with the shooting of Professor Loureiro. MIT says it's offering support and other services to MIT students and colleagues.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can watch a show on the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.