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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. John Rose (R-TN), Is Interviewed About Trump Announces New "Trump Class" Battleships; Ukrainian Draft Dodgers Go To Dangerous Lengths To Flee War; Vance Wades Into MAGA Civil War At Conservative Event. Aired 5:00-6p ET

Aired December 22, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: -- is right there on your screen. You can also catch up by listening to "The Arena" podcast. There is another Q.R. code for that also on your screen. You can also follow the show on X and Instagram. We are @thearenacnn. I'm also on TikTok @caseycnn. So, you can find me there, too. Phil Mattingly is standing by for "The Lead." Hi, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kasie. Thanks so much. We'll look for more tomorrow in "The Arena."

HUNT: Sounds good.

MATTINGLY: President Trump with a big announcement about the U.S. Military. "The Lead" starts right now.

The president and top Pentagon brass reportedly about to announce the U.S. Navy will build more battleships, ships the president may want to name after himself. This as the U.S. ramps up aggressive action to seize oil tankers near Venezuela. More on the breaking details just coming in. Plus, survivors speak out. Women used at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein to cry the actions of the Justice Department related to how it has handled the release of the Epstein files. One of those survivors joins "The Lead" this hour. And --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: How long did it take you?

UNKNOWN: Five days, four nights.

WARD: Five days, four nights. Walking through the mountains?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes, three big mountains.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: CNN's Clarissa Ward with an incredible look at the length some Ukrainian men are going to escape fighting against Vladimir Putin's army. Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Phil Mattingly, in for Jake Tapper. We

start in our "World Lead." In just moments, President Trump is expected to announce new U.S. warship building efforts from his Mar-a- Lago club in Florida. He'll be flanked by his secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, among others. Now, Trump has discussed calling the updated U.S. naval fleet the "Trump class." This comes as Trump's new quest to blockade sanctioned oil tankers heading to or from Venezuela escalates.

Right now, the U.S. Military is actively chasing an oil tanker that was sailing toward Venezuela on Sunday. The empty ship is under U.S. sanctions for links to Iranian oil and kept sailing after the U.S. Coast Guard initially tried to intercept it. The Bella 1 is the third tanker targeted by the U.S. The first, called the Skipper, was intercepted on December 10th. That one was also under U.S. sanctions for Iranian ties. But the second ship, called the Centuries, wasn't under any U.S. sanctions, though the White House insists the two million barrels of crude oil on board were, in fact, under sanctions.

Joining us now, CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes. Kristen, let's start with the announcement we're expecting here. The president has made his aesthetic aspirations rather well known as it pertains to the fleet for a while now. But this has also been a significant policy focus of some of his top advisors since, I think, going back to the first term. What are we expecting here?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and one of the things that we've heard a lot about from this administration moving forward is that they do want to build up their naval fleet, particularly when it comes to the Caribbean. They believe that to counter these adversaries, China, even Russia, various adversaries who do have a stronger military presence there. We've obviously seen them doing this when it comes to Venezuela, that they need to build up the military presence there.

So, he is ordering this golden fleet. He has thought of this new battleship or one of considered, calling it the USS Trump or the Trump class fleet. We don't know if he's actually going to do that, if that's going to be announced today. It wouldn't be that surprising, to be honest, if he did. I mean, this goes to everything else that he does. And also, as you mentioned, addition to fighting off adversaries. Part of this is the aesthetic. He has complained at length about how unattractive some of these ships are that are used in these military operations.

MATTINGLY: I do -- we're seeing a picture right now of where the president will be speaking shortly. I believe the signs say some iteration of Trump fleet. To your point, it is a pretty good bet that he will likely try and name it after himself --

HOLMES: Wouldn't be surprised.

MATTINGLY: -- based on everything else we've seen in the second term. In terms of what we've seen in the waters of Caribbean as it relates to Venezuela over the course of the last couple of weeks, there seems to have been a very considerable escalation over the course of the last couple of days. What's the latest?

HOLMES: Look, the bottom line is one thing here, Phil. The escalation comes from the fact that we have been ramping up our pressure campaign. Now, you are seeing this kind of following of a tanker at the same time that Maduro, the leader of Venezuela, is saying that his navy is going to escort these tankers to and from the ports so that they can get there safely.

So, what you are doing essentially is setting up the potential for an armed conflict with Venezuela because of the fact that they are doing the seizing of these various tankers.

So, what we know is going on right now is that the Bella 1 was on its way to Venezuela. We were told it did not have cargo on it. It was there to pick up Venezuelan crude oil, did not make it there. The Coast Guard tried to intercept it, tried to board it. They essentially said no, and then continued off on their journey away from Venezuela.

Now, U.S. officials are saying that this is a win because they didn't pick up the crude oil. The U.S. is saying that it had reason to do this, saying that this tanker had been related to or a close to Iranian oil in the past.

[17:05:05]

And so, this is something that was under investigation. This would now be the third tanker that they would go after. But again, all these is playing to the pressure campaign but also a really rapid escalation here that could potentially get dangerous.

MATTINGLY: Yes. I think that's a big question right now, the outcome or what is the strategic end game that they're actually going for here. Kristen Holmes, as always, thanks so much.

Well, joining us now, Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. He's on the Armed Services Committee. Senator, really appreciate your time. Just to start with here, do you have any sense -- have lawmakers in the briefings that they've had up to this point or communications either on your side or in the Republican majority have a sense of what the end game is here for the administration?

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Well, thanks for having me, Phil. Answer, no, there is no clear sense of what the end game or strategy is and growing disquiet and deepening satisfaction on both sides of the aisle with potentially a path toward war. Remember, this president came to office promising an end to endless wars and putting troops at risk in harm's way as he is doing right now, potentially going after yet another Venezuelan tanker possibly without any legal legitimacy, if it's not under sanction, is a very perilous and risky course.

And my preference would be that we go after the tankers that are carrying Russian oil at Shadow fleet, where there are sanctions and clear legal base, but also a national security threat to us because those tankers are carrying oil essential to fuel Russia's war machine against Ukraine and we have a national security interest in defending Ukraine. So, I think it's very misplaced use of American military might.

MATTINGLY: Yes. The ghost fleet on the Russian side of things has been something that people have acknowledged openly as a clear target and a clear way of circumventing sanctions that should be, could be addressed on some level.

I'm interested, senator, what do you make of Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro who said the interceptions are -- quote -- "acts of aggression?" Are you concerned that, inevitably, this will end up in some type of conflict?

BLUMENTHAL: We're seeing escalating use of force there, a major part of our entire naval fleet. Some estimates are one-seventh of all our naval force are concentrated in the Caribbean, led by USS Ford, our newest aircraft carrier, destroyers, other assets in that area.

Absolutely, yes, I'm deeply concerned. In fact, more than a bit frightened that we are on a path to escalating hostilities leading to war, potentially troops on the ground. And if we've learned nothing in the last 20, 25 years, it is that this kind of reckless use of American force can lead to escalating and deepening involvement.

As former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of State Colin Powell once said, if you break it, you own it. And we are breaking a lot of potential laws and also norms by this use of military force which puts, again, I can't emphasize it strongly enough, puts our men and women in uniform at grave risk. The pilots, the sailors, the Marines in that area, if they're used in kinetic force, they will be severely at risk and we'll lose some.

MATTINGLY: I want to switch topics on another issue that you've been focused on. We learned today that the Bondi Beach suspects cased the site before the shooting. They practiced firing guns. In the wake of that antisemitic tragedy, you called for a $1 billion increase in funding for comprehensive hate crime prevention. Antisemitism is spreading left and right here in the U.S. as well. What specifically, do you think, that money can do to prevent these types of horrific attacks?

BLUMENTHAL: That hideous Australian tragedy reflects the worldwide spread and rise of extremist ideology, not only antisemitism but violence of all kinds, hate-based violence that we see in synagogues and mosques. Here in Connecticut --

MATTINGLY: I think we may have just lost Senator Richard Blumenthal. We will try and connect back with him. Really important final question that I wanted him to answer there. Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, thank you very much. We will swing back if we have an opportunity to do so.

Well, in the meantime, more than a dozen Epstein survivors are slamming the Justice Department's handling of the files related to deceased pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

[17:10:05] Some of the disclosures are incomplete and leave some victim identities unredacted. Next, I'll speak with an Epstein survivor, Jess Michaels, lead writer of the group statement, about her criticism. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Major developments today in our "Law and Justice Lead." More than a dozen survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse and the family of the late Virginia Giuffre are slamming the Justice Department's partial Friday release of the Epstein file, saying in a new statement today -- quote -- "The public received a fraction of the files, and what we received was riddled with abnormal and extreme redactions with no explanation."

It goes on to say "Numerous victim identities were left unredacted. No financial documents were released. Grand jury minutes, though approved by a federal judge for release, were fully blacked out. These are clear-cut violations of an unambiguous law."

One of the survivors, whose name was left unredacted, has only ever been identified as Jane Doe. She tells CNN in an exclusive interview today that her attempts to have the Justice Department redact her name in those publicly available documents have been unsuccessful so far.

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CNN's MJ Lee broke this story. She is here with me now to share more about an astonishing report. I almost couldn't believe it as I was reading it right before the show. What more have you learned?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, as you know, Phil, there are many Epstein survivors and victims who simply go by Jane Doe. They have chosen over the years to not have their identities be made public.

And I spoke with one Jane Doe who was mortified to learn that her name appears over and over again in the DOJ files. She has actually reached out to the GOJ to basically say, please fix this, I don't want my name out there. And she did get a response, according to a review of these email exchanges, from DOJ saying, we're going to flag this message to the people who deal with documents and redactions. But even until this afternoon, I just checked, if you go on the DOJ Epstein files library, you can see her name appear in many places throughout the files.

Now, I do want to tell you a little bit more about this Jane Doe. And to be clear, these are descriptions that this person, this Jane Doe, was OK with us reporting. She is somebody that both witnessed and experienced abuse from Jeffrey Epstein in 2009. And then she reported this experience to the FBI.

And 2009 is a really significant time period because this is after Jeffrey Epstein was convicted on state charges in Florida and actually served jail time for about 13 months. But most of that time, as you know, he was actually able to get a work release, so wasn't actually in jail for most of it, and that's when survivors say his abuse continued.

Now, let me just read a part of what she told me in this interview. This Jane Doe told me, "The reason I feel so passionate is it's not just about me and what happened. I fear for the little girl who is calling the FBI right now and asking for help. I am so afraid for her because if I have to do all of this right now, I have no words. It hurts my heart. It haunts me to my core."

As you said, you know, this Jane Doe is one of many survivors and victims who are raising serious concerns about the way the DOJ has released these files because of the redactions that were totally botched, incomplete information. We're expecting hundreds of thousands of more documents in the coming weeks.

They also are having a hard time searching the "Epstein library." And there was so much hope, I think, going into last Friday. These are some of them. You know, women who have waited for years to be able to prove to themselves to the world that they are not a hoax, that they have not been liars. And I think there's a lot of disappointment right now, to say the least.

MATTINGLY: And no one has covered, I think, these victim stories with more empathy but also more focus than you have. This is just another of many examples. MJ Lee, really, really great reporting. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Joining me now, one of the survivors of Epstein's abuse who wrote the statement we've been talking about today, Jess Michaels. I just want to start just with what MJ was reporting, particularly the personal statements, really, as a difficult statement to listen to. I can't even imagine what it was like to actually write. Your response to that?

JESS MICHAELS, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: First of all, thank you so much for having me on. It is heartbreaking because what we've learned, as all of us have talked to, like, there are -- there's a page in there where literally everything is redacted except a survivor's name. So, to me, what we're seeing is just an incredibly sloppy and inconsistent and thoughtless process that has been done to try to redact names or leaving things haphazardly unredacted.

MATTINGLY: Why do you think that has been the case?

MICHAELS: I can't speculate why, but I want to share what prompted me to ask survivors, hey, can we put together a statement? I felt very strongly that this was a clear-cut black and white moment. Friday, December 19th at 11:59, if all of the files had not been released publicly, this DOJ had broken the law, the law that took an act of Congress to pass and that the president signed. And to me, that is a point we need to keep talking about, that I want people talking about at their Christmas dinner tables.

MATTINGLY: I want to dig in on that a little bit further. But first, how are you doing? MICHAELS: Thank you for asking. You know, it's -- just like this event is unprecedented, the volume and spectrum of emotions that have gone through me that I'm living in is bizarre. And I feel really happy and confident with the eight years of trauma therapy that I've been doing, that have helped me make it through.

[17:20:03]

But it's disconnected, it's intense, its' unnerving. But at the same time, none of this was unexpected.

MATTINGLY: What -- you mentioned that there was a bill passed that was signed into law by the president, that laid out very explicit instructions of what needed to happen on Friday by midnight. What are the documents that are still outstanding, that you and fellow survivors want the Justice Department to release without redaction as soon as possible?

MICHAELS: Well, obviously, we're all interested in our individual statements. How we are showing up in those files and where our individual files are? Though it is incredibly difficult to try to sift through that website, incredibly difficult, because if our names are redacted, we can't search by our name. There's not an ability to search by date. There are headlines, times. Dates are redacted. It's crazy. It's so poorly done that's just trying to search has been difficult.

And so, just to answer the other part of your question, our personal information, but what's going to prove sex trafficking? We want to see financial records. We want to see all of the long list of indictments for Jeffrey Epstein back in that sweetheart deal, the Alex Acosta deal. We want to see all of that paperwork because it proves the negligence that we've been talking about all along.

MATTINGLY: The deputy attorney general was on NBC on Sunday, said the Justice Department is still going through a methodical process, hundreds of lawyers to make sure victims' names, information is redacted, and that's why some documents have been delayed. Do you believe that's the case? Do you believe that over time, in kind of this rolling production, the issues or the documents or the elements that you believe have not been addressed or posted in a sufficient manner up to this point will be?

MICHAELS: I have a very difficult time trusting anything coming out of the DOJ for multiple -- historically, I have no good reason to trust the words now because it's actions that speak louder than words. And the actions that were supposed to happen on December 19th did not happen. And there was zero communication with survivors or even the public about what to expect on December 19th. I mean, we were all just sitting and waiting with zero information. Zero information. So, it's hard to really trust any more words, random words.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Jess Michaels, always appreciate your time, your perspective. I can only imagine what you've been going through, not just the last couple of weeks, but for a matter of years. And the fact that you and other survivors have gotten to this point has been extraordinary. Certainly, keeping an eye on the ability to get people who said they would deliver and sequentially have to deliver. Keep on that in the weeks and months ahead. Jess Michaels, thanks so much.

MICHAELS: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, Americans are weighing in on the cost of living and grading the state of the economy in a new poll. So, do they agree with President Trump giving it an A-plus, plus, plus? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: The breaking news in our "World Lead," just moments ago, President Trump announcing a new battleship design he's calling the "Trump class." Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The U.S. Navy will lead the design of these ships along with me because I'm a very aesthetic person, alongside our partners in American industry. And we're going to have Pete Hegseth and Marco and a lot of very talented people involved. But a lot of it has already been done. We've been doing this for months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Let's discuss that and more with Republican Congressman John Rose of Tennessee. He's also a candidate for governor. Congressman, just to start the news, your reaction to President Trump announcing the creation of this new class of battleships, is this something that you believe should be happening? Do you believe there are any ties to what we've been seeing in the western hemisphere, particularly in Venezuela, with this announcement?

REP. JOHN ROSE (R-TN): Well, I don't know that there are direct ties. Certainly, the president ran on the promise to make sure that our military was up to the task of defending the country. We know that our Navy is an important element of that. And I think the president's announcement is just in keeping with the longer-term plans to keep our Navy in a position to be able to defend this nation and to serve our interests around the world.

MATTINGLY: It has certainly been a policy focus of some of his top advisors, again, not just this term, but also in his first term as well. The naming of the ship class after himself, my White House colleague, Kristen Holmes, said, probably shouldn't be surprised. They renamed the U.S. Institute of Peace to Donald Trump -- Donald J. Trump Institute of Peace, renamed the Kennedy Center the Trump Kennedy Center. What does it tell you that the president keeps naming things after himself?

ROSE: Well, I think this president has been through a lot, you know, was pursued relentlessly by the previous administration. And so, I think you see to some extent a recoil and recalibration from that. And obviously, this president is proud of the historic electoral victory that he achieved. And so, I think you see some manifestation of that in these events that you described.

MATTINGLY: You told Jake Tapper earlier this month, you saw that the first oil tanker seizure is being about illegal activity. Clearly, there were sanction ties or sanctioned oil and gas that was tied to that. White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles told Vanity Fair the actions against Venezuela seem to be part of an effort at regime change. Is that something that concerns you, that these actions are really just a predicate toward regime change of Venezuela?

ROSE: Well, again, the president committed to get control of our borders and to stop the flow of illicit drugs into our country. We know that the rogue regime in Venezuela has been a conduit and an enabler of narco-terrorist in terms of bringing drugs into this country.

[17:30:06]

We've lost 800,000 Americans in the last decade to the narcotics trade. And I think this is just a renewed example and another example of the President fulfilling his campaign promises to stop the flow of illegal aliens, which he's already succeeded at, and to also curb and stop the flow of illegal drugs into our country, and confronting a rogue nation like Venezuela, which has really, you know, resisted all efforts at responding to international norms.

And so I think the President is continuing to apply pressure there. And hopefully the illegitimate leader of Venezuela will see that it's time to go and let democracy rule in his country.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: I want to turn now to the issue of the economy, affordability. President Trump continues to tout the strength of the U.S. economy, but according to a new CBS News YouGov poll, Americans aren't exactly buying it at this point. Sixty-one percent say Trump talks about prices and inflation as being better than they really are. Just 5 percent grade the economy as an A. Three-quarters of Americans saying the economy is a C or below.

I think what's interesting, I was watching when you were on with Jake earlier this month, and you listed off a very lengthy kind of summation of policy proposals that are, when you talk to administration officials, they say these are the things that will change people's minds. These are the things that people don't necessarily feel yet. When do you think people will start to feel them?

ROSE: Well, we know that opinion polls and the perception of people in the economy is a lagging indicator in terms of where the economy is. What we can look at is, are the real statistics. So you see energy costs down as a result of the President's all of the above energy policy. I think that will start to have an impact on public opinion.

Just this past week, I filled up for $2.23 a gallon, the lowest price I've paid at the pump since President Trump was president the last time. So that's both a leading and lagging indicator, leading in the sense that that put real money in my pocket, saving $1 or $2 a gallon over what I was paying during the Biden administration. It's a lagging indicator because energy costs, as we know, are built into the price of virtually everything that we consume.

And so as those savings start to reverberate through the economy, I think we're going to see prices moderate and ultimately come down. We've already seen a lot of prices fall dramatically. Many of us were saying back at the beginning of the Biden administration when we saw the runaway spending and we saw inflation begin to creep up, that this was a problem because inflation is a psychology. And once it's set in place, once it starts, it's hard to contain.

MATTINGLY: I cannot quibble. Gas prices definitely down, electric bills up on some level, but trying to figure out how this all works going forward. Congressman John Rose of Tennessee, always appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

ROSE: Thanks for having me.

MATTINGLY: Well, the top Russian general is killed after a bomb exploded under his car in Moscow. The latest on the investigation into who is responsible, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:37:06]

MATTINGLY: In our World Lead, as Ukraine's war with Russia drags on and with peace negotiations not yet finalized, tens of thousands of Ukrainian men are trying to avoid being drafted. For many, that means dangerous, even deadly crossings into neighboring Romania over treacherous mountains, often in freezing temperatures. CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN BENGA, DIRECTOR, SALVAMONT MARAMURES MOUNTAIN RESCUE: So what you see on the right hand side is Ukraine.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dan Benga knows how dangerous these mountains can be. He and his team have rescued hundreds of Ukrainians who tried to cross them.

BENGA: They don't have the knowledge, they don't have experience, and they don't have professional equipment because on these mountains you need professional equipment to be -- to be alive.

WARD: To survive.

WARD (voice-over): The Carpathian Mountains that cut along Romania's 400 mile border with Ukraine have become a deadly magnet for Ukrainian men fleeing conscription at home and seeking freedom in the E.U.

WARD: You can see how steep these mountains are. It is frankly astonishing that up to 100 Ukrainians are making this crossing still every single week.

WARD (voice-over): The risks are huge. Since Russia's invasion in 2022, the Salvamont Mountain Rescue Service has carried out countless perilous missions that have saved 377 Ukrainian lives. The longest operation lasted nearly six days. Not everyone makes it. The Romanian border police say 29 Ukrainians have died crossing the mountains and the Tisza River that separates the two countries.

BENGA: This is a job we were -- we were prepared. We are training every day and this is a job we are doing. It's not about being Ukrainian or Russian or American. It's about being human.

WARD: A human being.

BENGA: Yes.

WARD: So if you could deliver a message to the men of Ukraine, would you tell them stop trying to cross through these mountains? It's too dangerous?

BENGA: I really can't say don't cross the mountains. I can say take care of you.

WARD (voice-over): It's a lesson that Dima, who asked us not to reveal his identity, learned the hard way. He made the crossing shortly after receiving his draft papers early on in the war. Things quickly went wrong when his group got lost.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): Twenty degrees without food, without water.

WARD: No water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.

WARD: No food.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): Only snow.

WARD: Just the snow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): I walked 20 kilometers barefoot. I realized that I had problems with my feet. But at that time I didn't feel it. I only felt it when I was already in the hospital.

[17:40:06]

WARD: And then did they have to remove all the toes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): Yes. If the rescuers hadn't found me with two hours, I wouldn't be talking to you now.

WARD: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): Freedom. WARD (voice-over): Stories like Dima's have done little to stop the flow. According to the Romanian border police, more than 30,000 Ukrainians have entered the country illegally since the war began.

Martial law prohibits eligible men between the ages of 23 and 60 from leaving Ukraine. Many see crossing these mountains as their only option. Numbers are down from their peak in 2024 when the mobilization age was lowered to 25. But even now, as winter sets in, the crossings continue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through audio translation): Friends, this is the place for a proven, safe, reliable and fast way out abroad for men.

WARD (voice-over): For those who can afford it, some smugglers openly sell their services on TikTok and Telegram, 9,000 euros to get to Moldova, 12,000 euros or around $14,000 to Romania. Artem, as he calls himself, says he helps facilitate these escapes.

ARTEM, BOARDER-CROSSING FACILITATOR: We rescued, I think, more than, in this moment, more than 600 people.

WARD: I find it really interesting that you use the word rescue.

ARTEM: Of course, because I see the situation like that. And I think we rescue people who -- who just want to leave to build their future.

WARD: And what do you say to people who view you and who view those who are trying to leave as traitors?

ARTEM: I don't take care about them, to be honest. I help people. I save people.

WARD (voice-over): Ukrainian authorities see it differently, faced with a manpower crisis as the war heads towards its fifth year. Men caught trying to leave the country illegally are rounded up. Some have reported being mobilized shortly afterwards.

WARD: Hi, Victor. How are you?

WARD (voice-over): Thirty-four-year-old Kyiv taxi driver Victor Pinkhasov has just crossed into Romania.

WARD: I'm glad you're OK. You survived. How long did it take you?

VICTOR PINKHASOV, UKRAINIAN DRAFT EVADER: Five days, four nights.

WARD: Five days, four nights, walking through the mountains?

PINKHASOV: Yes, yes, three big mountains.

WARD (voice-over): He says the journey was tough, but the decision to leave was easy. His five-month-old daughter, Eva, is in Switzerland, and he has little faith in ongoing negotiations to end the war.

WARD: Do you believe that there is going to be peace? PINKHASOV: No.

WARD: No?

PINKHASOV: I -- I want to believe, but I see nobody wants peace.

WARD: What's the most important reason you left?

PINKHASOV: My daughter. Freedom. I want to -- to live and understand that I'm free. I can go. I can live in prison. I'm a free man.

WARD (voice-over): It is a bleak outlook shared by many Ukrainian men, willing to leave their homeland behind to take their futures into their own hands.

Clarissa Ward, CNN, Maramures, Romania.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Our thanks to Clarissa Ward for that reporting.

[17:43:30]

Well, MAGA leaders call each other out by name at a conservative conference, deepening a brewing divide. What that means for Vice President J.D. Vance and others hoping to become Trump's successor. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: The breaking news from Mar-a-Lago just moments ago, President Trump answering a question from a reporter about pictures of former President Bill Clinton that were revealed in the Epstein files, the files at least that have been released so far. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But no, I don't like the pictures of Bill Clinton being shown. I don't like the pictures of other people being shown. I think it's a terrible thing. I think Bill Clinton's a big boy. He can handle it. But you probably have pictures being exposed of other people that innocently met Jeffrey Epstein years ago, many years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: My panel is here now, just other people, hypothetically, who met him years ago, maybe in pictures with him. Jeff Zeleny, what you -- the response there, I think it's kind of interesting just in terms of how it was framed. What do you make of it?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Certainly. And it's the first time we've heard from President Trump since the release of the files late last week. He's been uncharacteristically quiet on Truth Social as well as speaking out. Look, I think he's trying to, you know, certainly he mentioned Bill Clinton by name. That was not in the question, I don't believe.

But he's trying to, again, diminish this. But it does not really change the fact that this still hangs over this administration in ways that really does not resemble anything else. I mean, he's always able to move beyond something by changing the subject, renaming submarines, et cetera.

But the Epstein story hangs over him. And it's kind of ironic that he's answering these questions at Mar-a-Lago, because he was a very close friend of Jeffrey Epstein's. And a lot of the, there was a friendship happened in South Florida.

So look, but I think it is interesting. He didn't get in a -- he didn't lose his temper about it. He just kind of answered it and -- and moved on. So he would like to move on in larger ways.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The President's point is correct. There are a lot of people from celebrities. You saw Michael Jackson, Diana Ross. A slew of people that were pictured with this guy who I think it's perhaps safe to presume, I don't know, but I think it's safe to presume that they had no engagement in any of the alleged illegal and immoral acts of Jeffrey Epstein. I think that's fair.

In terms of the politics of this, though, I do think we got to move on. I'm glad it's all out there. Let people look through all of the thousands of photos. I think, however, though, the number one focus for my party, the number one focus for the American people is very clear. And that remains the cost of living.

And so in terms of pivoting for this, I think focusing on that, I think focusing on the housing issue is how we move on to the tangible things that the millions of Americans out there are wanting to see from the Republican Party.

[17:50:06]

MATTINGLY: I think you make a really important point and a very salient one. One, especially on the housing stuff, you and I have talked about at length on the policy side, which is supposed to be a focus of the administration first quarter of next year. We'll see what that actually looks like. Housing is hard, by the way, from a policy side of things.

But it was interesting watching the, the Turn Point USA, uh, convention over the weekend, where the kind of fissures within the party are still very real. I think J.D. Vance was, was kind of the keynote speaker. I want to play something, I think we have it, that he said about lack of unity potentially being a good thing. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know some of you are discouraged by the infighting over any number of issues. Don't be discouraged. Wouldn't you rather lead a movement of free thinkers who sometimes disagree than a bunch of drones who take their orders from George Soros?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Purity tests are something I think members of both parties wish that they could do without, oftentimes. Do you think he has a point, in general, about where the party is, Republican-wise, going forward?

ARSHI SIDDIQUI, FOUNDER, BELLWETHER GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS: I think it's interesting because I think there has been a departure from this whole notion of an exchange of ideas, freedom of speech, kind of this back and forth. There has been much more of a litmus test that we've seen in the Republican Party.

So it would be good if -- if they could uphold this and there could be, I mean there's no room for dissension. You look -- you look at what happened with the Affordable Care Act recently in terms of those subsidies. We -- we let, Congress left town.

Two-thirds of the American public really do support extending those, but they didn't do it because they didn't want to go against the President. So I -- I think this -- this back and forth on freedom of speech and exchange of ideas, that's core to our democracy, but hopefully we can get back to that point at some point.

SINGLETON: Can I just add, this isn't unique to just the Republican Party. We've seen this on both sides. We've discussed this on this show many, many times. Jeff, you've reported on this ad nauseum, particularly last year on the Democratic side, and the challenges present there.

I think it's important, and I got to be honest, as a strategist, I do not want to deal with this with midterms coming up in 2026. And so my thoughts on this are simply, we need to get it together here because we're going to need every last one of those podcasters, the activists that are working in the communities to turn out the base of the Republican Party and then focus on some of those undecideds to hopefully try to maintain the House.

MATTINGLY: You've done a ton of reporting in this space, both recently but also at large. The -- the risk that I think Shermichael is getting at going into a midterm year, how real is it?

ZELENY: I think it's very real. I mean, and Vice President Vance can wish away the differences. He clearly didn't want to take a side or dwell on them, but those differences exist over Israel, over A.I., immigration, so many other matters that and really even bigger picture things. The isolationist disdain, the hawkish view, all of this is going to challenge J.D. Vance as he, you know, moves closer toward becoming a presidential candidate, should he decide to do that.

He was endorsed this weekend by Erika Kirk. We will see if he actually runs. But the divisions inside the Republican Party are real. And as Donald Trump is sort of, you know, loses his grip ever so slightly, I think those will, uh, reveal themselves even more. MATTINGLY: I think to that point, what's most fascinating about kind of the current dynamic is these aren't small issues. These are like culturally defining issues in politics that Republicans are grappling with in ways they never had to when Trump was at the top of the ballot, or at the top of the ticket, because it was just whatever he said kind of won the day. Is it possible to resolve these things internally, going into a midterm year?

SIDDIQUI: I mean, it's a tough challenge, because you want the base to come out, but a lot of the base, of the Republican base, a lot of those policies are going to turn off independents, moderates, women, uh, Latino voters. So there -- there's a big tension here, and I think it's going to be hard to do.

SINGLETON: Look, intellectually, I am not opposed, as I don't think any of us at this table are, with the idea of exchanging what the party could look like in the future. I'm not against that, but again, electoral politics is about addition, not subtraction. And to your point, I want to reach as many of those darn undecideds as the Republican Party can possibly do without turning them off, and we got to be mindful of that.

MATTINGLY: Yes, that's going to be the biggest question going into next year. Guys, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[17:54:09]

Well, up next, we'll check in with CNN Weather Center as dangerous winter weather is on the horizon for millions of Americans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: In our National Lead, a series of deadly storms slam Northern California and the Sierra Nevada mountains with heavy flooding over the weekend. It's just the start of dangerous winter weather for the state with multiple storms expected to bring months worth of rain to Southern California just this week. CNN's there Van Dam is tracking it all. Derek?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Phil, we have some new information to pass along to our viewers. The Weather Prediction Center has really upped the ante for the incoming atmospheric river that will impact Southern California later this week, specifically Christmas Eve. They have just enhanced this to a high risk that's a level four of four and that rarely happens. We'll talk about that in just one moment.

But specifically this area, you can see it with a dark shading of purple that is east to west along the transverse mountain ranges really just in and around the greater Los Angeles area stretching westward towards Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties. This area will potentially see several inches of rainfall and these high risk days are very rare. They only occur about 4 percent of days from the Weather Prediction center, but they account for a third of flood related fatalities and up to 80 percent of flood related damages. So we need to take them seriously. Take for instance the flood that was ongoing across Reading, California earlier today. This is a bird's eye view of that flooding and that wasn't even under a high risk. So this atmospheric river is to blame and the moisture that it is fueling in from the Pacific is going to fluctuate southward. You can see the flood alerts as far south as the U.S. and Mexico border and as far east as Las Vegas and Western Arizona.

[18:00:05]

So this narrow directed plume of moisture will make its way into Southern California come Tuesday night into Wednesday. There will be a lot of rain associated with it, but because of the direction of the transverse mountain ranges, it is going to help kind of wring out all the available moisture. And we will get several days of continuous rainfall that could pile up over a half a foot in some locations. Phil?