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The Lead with Jake Tapper
White House To Brief Key Lawmakers On Venezuela; Trump Insists The U.S. Is "In Charge" Of Venezuela; Maduro, Wife Plead Not Guilty In First Court Appearance; Poll: Americans Split Over U.S. Military Action In Venezuela. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired January 05, 2026 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: All right, thanks to my panel for being here. Really appreciate all of you. Thanks to you at home for watching as well. Always appreciate it. Happy New Year. "The Lead with Jake Tapper" starts right now.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is "CNN Breaking News."
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to begin with breaking news on our "World Lead." We are watching Capitol Hill right now for a classified, urgent briefing on the extraordinary situation in Venezuela. At any moment, top Trump administration officials, including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Attorney General Pam Bondi included, are expected to brief the Gang of Eight in Congress, along with the chairs and top Democrats, on the Senate and House Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees.
Earlier today, we saw former Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro on U.S. soil, specifically in a New York City courtroom. Maduro, who the U.S. says only sees power in Venezuela due to illegitimate elections, was captured on Saturday in a U.S. military operation along with his wife, First Lady Cilia Flores.
The two now face drugs and weapons charges, accused of running state- sponsored gangs and trafficking drugs in Venezuela. This morning in court, both pleaded not guilty. Maduro saying -- quote -- "I was captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. I am innocent. I am not guilty." Maduro also added that he was a decent man.
Members of both political parties are praising the U.S. military members who carried out this operation. We're told that some sustained shrapnel injuries, but all are expected to be OK ultimately. That was not the case for others on the ground in Venezuela. The Cuban government said 32 of its citizens were killed during the operation in combat actions.
So, now what? Who exactly is in charge of Venezuela right now? The vice president of Venezuela, Delcy Rodriguez, was just sworn in as Venezuela's acting president. Here's what President Trump said on Saturday and again last night when asked about who is running Venezuela.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Don't ask me who's in charge because I'll you an answer and it will be very controversial.
UNKNOWN: What does that mean?
TRUMP: It means we're in charge.
UNKNOWN: Have you spoken with her?
TRUMP: We're in charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That is a bit different from what Secretary of State Marco Rubio said, which the United States ambassador to the United Nations, Mike Waltz, affirmed earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALTZ, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: As Secretary Rubio has said, there is no war against Venezuela or its people. We are not occupying a country. This was a law enforcement operation in furtherance of lawful indictments that have existed for decades. The United States arrested a narcotrafficker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: OK. So, what about elections to decide a potential new president of Venezuela? Here's what Secretary Rubio said about that yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: All of that, I think, is premature at this point. There's a lot of work to be done here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There apparently was at least one other person who theoretically could have run Venezuela, at least on an interim basis, and that is Maria Corina Machado. She is the Venezuelan opposition leader who was the recipient of the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize. But President Trump on Saturday was pretty quick to dismiss her, saying she doesn't have the respect needed to run Venezuela.
Now, some possibly relevant context. You know how President Trump is openly lobbied for the Nobel Peace Prize. Well, two people close to the White House told "The Washington Post" that the president's lack of interest in boosting Machado stemmed from her decision to accept the Peace Prize. One source telling "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "If she had turned it down and said, I can't accept it because it's Donald Trump's, she'd be the president of Venezuela today" -- unquote. I asked the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, about that report. She said it was -- quote -- "fake news." Either way, here we are with a member of Maduro's illegitimate administration being the interim leader as of now. And for those thinking maybe she will turn out to be different, we should note that the government of Venezuela today ordered the arrest of anyone who supported the United States' actions against Maduro.
We should also note that the indictment of Maduro and Flores is actually an indictment of six people, and the other four remain in Venezuela. At least one of them is a minister in the government.
[17:05:01]
So, while everyone is watching, understandably, the spectacle of Maduro donning shackles in a Nike sweat suit here in the United States, do not take your eye off the ball in Venezuela. President Trump has said previously he's counting on American companies to rebuild Venezuela's battered oil industry. And indeed today, U.S. energy and oil stocks are rising as investors assess the prospect of American companies, fuel companies gaining access to Venezuela's oil reserves. Whether the Maduro regime without Maduro will continue to exist if they allow the oil to flow freely, that is an open question.
Let's talk about all of these with Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York. He's the ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, good to see you. In just a few minutes, you're heading into that briefing with top administration officials. What are you going to ask them? What are you hoping to learn from them?
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Well, I tell you, you've asked a lot of the questions. You've stated a lot of the questions that I'm going to ask because I want to know what happens now. I want to know what commitments do they get from Delcy. You know, could they say -- some say that she was sworn in and seemed to be working with her. If so, what are those commitments? Are they moving toward elections, any kind of democracy?
I want to know, you know, because if in fact we are in control or if we're going to be running the country, as the president of the United States says, not the secretary of state, we are then occupying, how many American troops will be put on the ground as a result of it and how much is it going to cost the American people? What was the cost to the American people to have the kind of buildup that they have had on the ground and in the sea close to Venezuela? What is the cost to the American people? I want to know that. I want to know.
Do they plan on going into Colombia or Cuba or Greenland as indicated? What's the cost there? Have they made plan? Because, you know, if you don't have a plan, then in essence, you plan to fail. So, we're going to ask those kinds of questions also.
TAPPER: What do you think should happen next in Venezuela in terms of leadership? MEEKS: I think that there had been a democratically elected president. I monitored that election very closely and everyone that was there said that Mr. Gonzalez won the election. And I still have had back and forth conversations with him immediately after the elections, etcetera. I had hoped that he would stay in Venezuela and not go to Spain. But he was afraid of Maduro and afraid of being killed and afraid of his family, so he left.
I think that we should be talking about democracy and we should be talking about bringing the government that the people had elected and bringing them forward.
TAPPER: Maduro has been illegitimately ruling and repressing the people of Venezuela for years. If this operation to remove him results in more freedom for the people of Venezuela, will the military action be justified in your view?
MEEKS: No, because the military action is illegal. You know, there was no conversation at all with members of Congress. There are certain rules, international rules, as well as constitutional rules.
I was shocked when I heard that the president of the United States said on Air Force One that he consulted with his oil buddies before and after the invasion and did not consult with the members of Congress. I've seen no evidence of many of the things that the president has claimed that has taken place. He has not presented any of that.
TAPPER: So, you --
MEEKS: You know, we've had these meetings before. We've asked for them and we've gotten zero. So, no, we cannot allow this to continue because you know he won't stop there. You know, it's the same thing that we say about Vladimir Putin in Europe, that he won't stop with Ukraine, he will continue to move on and on to other countries. Well, the president of the United States seems to be attempting to do exactly what Vladimir Putin is doing in Europe.
TAPPER: You said it's illegal. There are those who say that the legal basis for removing Noriega from power in Panama in 1989 sets the basis for a legality of this operation which was, as you know, the White House is saying was a law enforcement operation.
MEEKS: Well, clearly, what took place in 1989, number one, there was a president that was elected. It was a closely contested election. And the United States stood when that president was sworn into office. There was democracy that was continuing in that regards. Then pursuant to the law, President George H.W. Bush came back with a war powers resolution, informing Congress what was taking place.
[17:10:00]
I understand there was dialogue back and forth before and after that situation with Congress, you know, at that particular time. None of which has taken place here at this time.
TAPPER: Democratic --
MEEKS: Completely different.
TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York, ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, thank you so much, sir. Appreciate it.
A Republican senator who was born in Colombia, South America will join us next. We're going to his take on all this as President Trump considers expanding his operation beyond Venezuela. Plus, the oil factor, one of Venezuela's most valued natural resources, how Maduro's removal could impact the price you pay at the gas pump. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back with our "World Lead." President Trump riding the high from a successful Delta Force Venezuela operation, saying he wants to do something about Mexico, the cartels there, about needing Greenland to be part of the U.S. And when asked about Cuba, he said -- quote -- "I think it's just going to fall." Perhaps Trump's most urgent new threat is against Venezuela's neighbor, Colombia, which is now building up its military on the Venezuelan border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Colombia is very sick, too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Joining us now, Republican Senator Bernie Moreno of Ohio, who was, incidentally, born in Bogota, Colombia and serves on the Senate Homeland Security Committee.
[17:15:00]
Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Beyond the principle of what happened over the weekend, how do you convince your constituents in Ohio who might be more concerned with the cost of living, that military action in Venezuela and potentially in Colombia are important and a priority?
SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): Well, first, I think we should give credit to our military for doing something that would otherwise seem impossible. The operation that they completed just 14 hours ago was truly perfection that only the U.S. military can do. So big congratulations on that.
In terms of your question, look, at the end of the day, this is a law enforcement exercise. You had an indicted cartel -- criminal cartel member, Nicolas Maduro, that goes back to Obama days. Obama signed an executive order asking Maduro to be brought to justice. He was indicted in the Southern District of New York. Biden actually put in place a $25 million bounty on his head. The difference between Biden and Obama and President Trump is that President Trump actually had the courage to actually implement what should have been done, which is to bring him into the U.S. to face justice, which is what you saw today.
TAPPER: So, what's your response to those who say that Trump threatening military action in Mexico, possibly in Cuba, possibly in Colombia, possibly taking over Greenland, that none of that is America first?
MORENO: Well, they have to get over their Trump derangement syndrome. Maduro, unlike the other presidents of the other countries you mentioned, is an indicted drug dealer. That's not the case in Mexico. It's not the case in Cuba.
Now, by the way, Cuba specifically had conquered Venezuela already, decades ago. In fact, if you notice, the security forces that protected Maduro were not Venezuelans. The Venezuelans hate Maduro. He had to bring Cubans in to protect them. They're no longer there. They got extinguished by our forces.
TAPPER: I think 32 of them were killed or something --
MORENO: Well, that's the Cuban numbers. So, the Cuban numbers of 32 is probably 300. But Cuba now has no financial ability to survive as a regime. So, I think you're going see Cuba fall before the end of the year. It has been 60 plus years in the making because of that.
How this matter to the people of Ohio, to ask you a question, the working people of Ohio? You're going to see gas prices drop dramatically. You're going to see less drugs in your neighborhood. You're not going to see your neighbors, kids, friends, relatives infected by drugs because we're massively cutting drug dealing off. You're not going to see illegal migration that lowers and suppresses wages, raising housing costs, raising insurance costs. They suck up our free health care from us, which we then have to pay for. That affects working Americans in a big way.
TAPPER: So, I don't mean to belittle the problems of cocaine from Colombia and Venezuela, but isn't the biggest problem in Ohio fentanyl and opioids, which come mainly from China and then through Mexico? The fentanyl and the opioids, frankly, we make ourselves.
MORENO: Yes, all these businesses aren't independent little operations going. This is a very sophisticated massive organization that Venezuela was the central hub of because you had money laundering there, you had Hezbollah there, you had the Colombian drug dealers that actually produce the cocaine in Colombia are protected in Venezuela. You have the Mexican criminal organizations that funnel their money through there, the routes, the shipping routes, all that was coordinated through Venezuela.
You got to read the indictment. I mean, it clearly lays it all out. But let me just say this about Mexico. President Trump is exactly right. Mexico has to do more. Now, I'll acknowledge that they've done a lot. Canada has also done a lot. They have to do more also. But the fact that we've had zero illegal crossings since May of last year is a pretty remarkable accomplishment from President Trump.
TAPPER: I want you to take a listen to something President Trump said on Air Force One yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Any commitments from the oil companies?
TRUMP: They want to go in so badly.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Did you speak with them before the operation took place?
TRUMP: Yes.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Did you maybe tip them off?
TRUMP: Before and after. And they want to go in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, the president is saying that he tipped off the oil companies before and after the operation. Now, he did not tell even The Gang of Eight, the speaker of the House, the leader of the Senate, Democrats, Republicans, people in the intel communities before the operation. Does it bother you at all that he apparently tipped off the oil companies?
MORENO: Well, Jake, I think he tipped off the entire world. He mobilized the largest military presence in the Caribbean in modern history. This was no surprise. I find it interesting that everybody is surprised by President Trump's moves. He tells people exactly what he's going to do. The problem is here in D.C., we're used to politicians that say one thing and then just don't do it. President Trump means what he says. He's not a barker. President Trump is an actor. He's somebody that actually does what he says he's going to do.
When you mobilize that kind of military in the Caribbean, it's pretty obvious. It was obvious to everybody, except for maybe Maduro, who thought that he was dealing with Biden 2.0. And that's why he's now in a jail cell in New York City.
TAPPER: Well, I think a lot of people thought that he was certainly pressuring Maduro so that Maduro would self-exile. And even Rubio, Secretary Rubio said that, you know, there was an offer to Maduro to get out.
[17:20:03]
And I think it was ultimately -- you know, he could go to Turkey and not be living in prison right now. But --
MORENO: He'll probably be with his whole life. But look, here's what the message is to the rest of the world, Jake. When President Trump says he's going to do something, he does it. That's new. It is 180 degrees from Biden. Biden should have acted in many, many instances. We wouldn't have a war in Ukraine, we wouldn't have had this situation in Venezuela, we wouldn't have instability, we wouldn't have inflation. President Trump acts on his words. That's the big difference and that's the message to the rest of the world.
TAPPER: There's a lot there that I would ask you about, but we're out of time. Republican Senator Bernie Moreno, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. We'll have you back soon.
MORENO: Thank you.
TAPPER: Thanks so much. We're going to go live to Columbia as that country sends a warning to President Trump about possibly expanding its military operation beyond Venezuela.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: And we're back sticking with our "World Lead." Colombian President Gustavo Petro is pushing back against President Trump's threat of military action against his country. Earlier today, Petro warned he would -- quote -- "take up arms if the U.S. decides to attack him or Colombia."
[17:25:01]
After the U.S. captured ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, Colombia increased security along its border with Venezuela. CNN's David Culver traveled there, and he spoke with some Venezuelans about their country's uncertain future.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's get in here.
CULVER (voice-over): This is the show of force Colombian commanders want the world and perhaps mostly Washington to witness.
CULVER: And so here, it is now evening, going into late in the night, and we're about to see some of the many patrols that have sprawled out across the 1,300 plus miles of border between Colombia and Venezuela.
CULVER (voice-over): The government says it has now deployed some 30,000 Colombian troops to its eastern border.
CULVER: Military commanders stress that their priority is security and stability more than anything else. It may look like an escalation, but they say this is about being prepared for whatever situation might unfold. But you can't look past the timing. And that is all of this happening as scrutiny from Washington intensifies.
CULVER (voice-over): At all hours, the Colombian military increasingly present here.
CULVER: What is the priority right now?
CULVER (voice-over): Pushing back on claims from the Trump administration that they're not doing enough to stop criminal organizations and drugs from crossing the border.
LT. COL. JHONNATAN ARCOS, COLOMBIAN ARMY: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE). They're focused on guaranteeing and defending Colombia's sovereignty and primarily its citizens.
ARCOS: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER (voice-over): And yet despite the show of force, life here, pretty normal for the moment.
CULVER: You can see steady traffic coming in from Venezuela into Colombia. This is the Simon Bolivar Bridge. It takes you right into Venezuela.
CULVER (voice-over): Or out of Venezuela, in Maria's case, if only for a couple of hours.
CULVER: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER (voice-over): She's got a doctor's appointment in Colombia.
CULVER: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE). She says everything is calm.
CULVER (voice-over): She's among those still living in Venezuela, willing to tell us on camera she's happier with Maduro gone.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She says as soon as Maduro became president, everything just went downhill from there. So, she's hoping it can revert back to the way it was. As she says, before.
CULVER (voice-over): In a seemingly forgotten, tucked away mountain community here in Cucuta, Colombia, many we meet dream bigger for Venezuela's future.
CULVER: And this is a community that's basically a migrant settlement.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She thinks there are more Venezuelans in this community than Colombians. Mind you, we're in Colombia.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER (voice-over): This family left Venezuela two years ago, intentionally keeping close to their homeland.
CULVER: Do you want to go back?
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She would love to go back. That's where the bedroom is. They have running water and electricity. The neighbor has internet. And so, they share it. This is their kitchen. They have one bedroom
there.
CULVER (voice-over): Incredibly modest but better still -- she insists -- than life on the other side of the border.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She said life in Venezuela was incredibly difficult. Even working, she said, you had to make choices. Do you buy clothes? Do you buy food?
CULVER (voice-over): She's among the nearly three million who've left Venezuela to settle in Colombia in recent years, believed to be the largest Venezuelan diaspora outside of Venezuela.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She said her husband wanted to stay close to their homeland so they're just over the border. Secondly, she was worried about the journey to the U.S.
CULVER (voice-over): And yet, before returning, she, like most here, want to see lasting changes take shape.
CULVER: Do you think the U.S. can change things in Venezuela?
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She does think the U.S. actually can contribute, not to do everything, but to at least make a better Venezuela as she sees it.
CULVER (voice-over): Until then, they've made this home.
UNKNOWN: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
CULVER: She says go back three years ago, and this was a mess. It didn't look anything like this. But the community came together. And now, it's a place where a lot of the kids gather and they play.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CULVER (on camera): Jake, you can see the traffic moving behind me. That's actually coming out of Venezuela into where we are here in Colombia. And you can see also the show of force.
This is what's greeting a lot of the folks who are leaving Venezuela. This is exactly what the Colombian government wants to show.
[17:30:06]
A short time ago, our team spoke with the defense minister who told us that he's got a message for Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth saying soldier to soldier, this is how he worded it, he wants to invite Hegseth to Colombia and use this as an opportunity for the two countries to work together. Obviously we'll see if that invitation is received. Jake?
TAPPER: David Culver along Colombia's border with Venezuela, thank you so much.
So what is next for Venezuela? Does President Trump have imminent plans to target any other country? Stephen Miller was with President Trump when the world learned of Maduro's capture and he's going to join us live, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back and continuing with the World Lead and asking questions about what happened in Venezuela over the weekend and what happens now. White House Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy Stephen Miller joins us now. Stephen, thanks so much for joining us. So a source briefed on the Venezuelan operation told me that a handful of American troops sustained bullet and shrapnel wounds, but none are life-threatening.
[17:35:11]
Can you share with us how serious any injuries to American service members might be and also any information you can tell us about any Venezuelan civilian casualties?
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: Yes, well, let me take the second part first, which is that the overwhelming share of casualties and fatalities that were inflicted were against the Cuban guard that had exerted control over the people of Venezuela. So what many don't realize is that for years, Maduro stayed in power through an illicit deal with Cuban communists to provide his security because he didn't trust his own people to keep him safe. That is how much he was hated inside Venezuela.
So what our special forces encountered when they did that daring mid tight -- midnight assault into Caracas were armed Cuban guards, and they sustained massive numbers of casualties. I can't give you an exact number. The numbers that you've seen in terms of the Cuban guards publicly reported are probably lower than the actual number that were killed.
To your first question, no, none of the, at least as I've been briefed, none of the injuries are life threatening. Everybody is stable. And it just underscores the remarkable skill, precision, courage, and capability of our special forces. And I want to just set the table one more time for your audience. I'm sure you've talked about it at length already, but the United States of America launched an assault force into Venezuelan territory --
TAPPER: Right.
MILLER: -- which has sophisticated air defense systems, which has sophisticated surveillance systems, which has weaponry that they've received that can take out planes and helicopters from our foreign adversaries. They've been stockpiling for years in anticipation of the possibility of such an action.
TAPPER: Right. MILLER: Maduro was staying in a military fortress. In other words, since the United States had started amassing this armada under President Trump's leadership and direction --
TAPPER: Yes.
MILLER: -- he'd increasingly narrowed the scope of his own movement. He was sleeping in a fortress.
TAPPER: Yes. And so, a remarkable --
MILLER: And so we flew into Caracas --
TAPPER: Yes.
MILLER: -- these special forces, engage in direct gunfire with elite Cuban guards, and every single kill, every single kill was an enemy kill.
TAPPER: So there were no civilian casualties?
MILLER: Well, I didn't see any reports of any civilian casualties. But my point is that in this raging gunfire battle that took place, the point that I'm making to you is, no Americans were killed.
TAPPER: Right.
MILLER: Because of the planning, skill and preparation, the enemy sustained massive losses.
TAPPER: Yes.
MILLER: Not one of our assets was lost. Not one of our people was lost.
TAPPER: So let's talk about what next. Delcy Rodriguez was formally sworn as vice -- as Venezuela's acting president this afternoon. She was the vice president. She described the U.S. intervention as, "without a doubt, Zionist in character." Is Acting President Rodriguez someone that the U.S. can work with?
MILLER: So the acting president put out a statement. I want to say, Jake, it was last night, pledging cooperation with the United States, pledging full and complete cooperation.
TAPPER: But they also just passed a law saying that if you supported the operation, outlawing individuals or threatening with criminal penalties, individuals, if they supported the operation against Maduro, I think they did that today.
MILLER: Well, the good news there, Jake, is that nobody inside of Venezuela supported the operation. So it's a law without meaning or effect. Look, Jake, there's going to be some posturing that occurs when a nation has been so thoroughly defeated in this way. The United States of America, think about this, Jake, the United States of America has encircled this nation for months. One of the largest naval armadas in history has been stationed off its coast.
TAPPER: Yes.
MILLER: Fighter jets have been encircling the island. We've been engaging in kinetic lethal strikes against Maduro's drug boats and Tren de Aragua gang members leaving the island.
TAPPER: Yes.
MILLER: We have launched a complete oil embargo of the ghost fleet, the dark ships.
TAPPER: We've been covering all of it. Yes.
MILLER: And now on top of all that, Maduro is sitting in a jail cell in New York as is his wife. So of course there's going to be, this is very important though, of course, there's going to be some posturing.
TAPPER: OK.
MILLER: Without giving anything away, I want to be very clear, very clear, the government has sent messages, this is such an important point, Jake, to the Secretary of State, to our senior U.S. government official negotiators. They have sent message after message making clear that they will meet the terms, demands, conditions, and requirements of the United States.
[17:40:03]
TAPPER: OK.
MILLER: And I want to be very clear about that, Jake.
TAPPER: So let's -- the question about who is now running Venezuela is one that even members of Congress who are big Trump supporters say they're not quite sure about. Senate Majority Leader John Thune told CNN's Manu Raju that he doesn't know what President Trump meant by his assertion that the U.S. is running Venezuela.
And he said he needs more information. Can you tell us what the President means when he says, is acting President Delcy Rodriguez in charge? Is she running Venezuela or not?
MILLER: Well, what the President said is true. The United States of America is running Venezuela. By definition, that's true. Jake, we live in a law, I'm sorry, we live in a world in which you can talk all you want about international niceties and everything else, but we live in a world, in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. These are the iron laws of the world that have existed since the beginning of time. The United States --
TAPPER: But are you saying -- but in terms of day-to-day operations in Venezuela, that is president, Acting President Rodriguez, right? It's not some sort of American emissary.
MILLER: No, what I'm saying is, and we'll keep going here, Jake. So I want to say what I'm saying, and then you'll follow up. But what I'm saying is just one level above that, which is that, by definition, we are in charge because we have the United States military stationed outside the country. We set the terms and conditions. We have a complete embargo on all of their oil and their ability to do commerce.
So for them to do commerce, they need our permission. For them to be able to run an economy, they need our permission. So the United States is in charge. The United States is running the country during this transition period.
TAPPER: So if that's true --
MILLER: Now, obviously, that doesn't mean that President Trump is setting the bus fare schedule inside the country.
TAPPER: Right. Of course.
MILLER: It doesn't mean that President Trump is assigning the key to the whole curriculum in the country.
TAPPER: The indictment that the president and the military were acting on from 2020 was of six people. Two of them were seized on Saturday by our special operators. There are four other individuals indicted who remain in Venezuela. Is the U.S. demanding that they be turned over? One of them is Maduro's son. One of them is a former government official. One is a current government official.
One of them is the head of Tren de Aragua, as I'm sure you know. Are they going to be turned over if President Trump is, in fact, running Venezuela in the way you described?
MILLER: Well, I don't want to -- obviously, we have to balance here, Jake, which I think you more than most understand. We have to balance between, of course, what I can say to you publicly versus very close- hold conversations that might be happening privately. And I know you understand and respect that.
But I'll answer the question in this way. There might be individuals who are fugitives from American justice that could become part of a future conversation. But it's also true that for government leaders inside of Venezuela, as the president has said, right, we want an interim government that will respect the interests of the people of Venezuela, that wants a good, peaceful, secure future for Venezuela.
So I would just say it this way. For those who may be indicted, the best choice they can possibly make is to be part of a constructive decision-making process for the future of Venezuela. The best decision they can make is to cooperate fully and completely with the United States to be part of building this brighter future for Venezuela during this interim period.
TAPPER: On another important topic, the premier of Greenland and the premier of Denmark and other Danish officials are responding to a Twitter post from your wife, Katie Miller, herself a former Trump White House official, showing Greenland covered with an American flag, saying soon. After that was posted, President Trump repeated the claim that the U.S. needs Greenland for national security reasons.
The Danish prime minister responded to this in an interview earlier today, as reported by Bloomberg, "I believe one should take the American president seriously when he says he wants Greenland. But I will also make it clear that if the U.S. chooses to attack another NATO country militarily, then everything stops, including NATO, and thus the security that has been established since the end of the Second World War." Can you rule out that the U.S. is ever going to try to take Greenland by force?
MILLER: Well, let me let me go back a step. The President has been clear for months now. So I know you're treating this as breaking news. The President has been clear for months now that the United States should be the nation that has Greenland as part of our overall security apparatus.
TAPPER: Right. But your wife posted that like hours after the Venezuela operation.
MILLER: I know.
TAPPER: That's why it's newly relevant.
MILLER: No. And I'll talk with you about it for an hour. I think it's really important conversation. I just want to -- I just wanted to reset, Jake, by making clear that has been the formal position of the U.S. government since the beginning of this administration, frankly, going back into the previous Trump administration, that Greenland should be part of the United States.
[17:45:08]
The President has been very clear about that. That is the formal position of the U.S. government.
TAPPER: Right. But can you say that military action against Greenland is off the table?
MILLER: It wouldn't be military action against Greenland. The Greenland has a population of 30,000 people, Jake. The real question is, by what right does Denmark assert control over Greenland? What is the basis of their territorial claim? What is their basis of having Greenland as a colony of Denmark? The United States is the power of NATO, for the United States to secure the Arctic region, to protect and defend NATO and NATO interests. Obviously, Greenland should be part of the United States.
And so that's a conversation that we're going to have as a country. That's a process we're going to have as a as a community of nations.
TAPPER: So you can't take it off the table that the U.S. would use military force to seize Greenland. You can't take it off the table. MILLER: I understand you're trying very hard to, which again, is your job. I respect it. It's great to get exactly the headline, right, that catchy headline --
TAPPER: I'm just trying to get an answer to that question.
MILLER: -- that says Miller refuses to rule out. The United States should have Greenland as part of the United States. There's no need to even think or talk about this in the context that you're asking of a military operation. Nobody's going to fight the United States militarily over the future of Greenland.
TAPPER: One last question, Stephen. One last question. The President was very quick to say that the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, opposition leader Machado in Venezuela, doesn't have the support in Venezuela to become the next president or the interim leader. And I wonder where he got that from, given that her basically her cutout, Gonzalez, won the election last year over -- or two years ago to overwhelmingly 70 percent of the vote or something like that. Why does the President think that Machado should not be the next leader? Why does he think she's weak?
MILLER: First of all, all Venezuelan experts agree, all Venezuelans agree that it would be absurd and preposterous for us to suddenly fly her into the country and to put her in charge and the military would follow her and the security forces would follow her. This isn't this is not a serious -- it's not even a serious question.
TAPPER: So should there be an election?
MILLER: If you give me the floor for 30 seconds, let me tell you what we are doing here, Jake. The United States, this is this is sort of foundational. The United States is using its military to secure our interests unapologetically in our hemisphere.
We're a superpower. And under President Trump, we are going to conduct ourselves as a superpower. It is absurd that we would allow a nation in our own backyard to become the supplier of resources to our adversaries, but not to us, to hoard weapons from our adversaries, to be able to be positioned as an asset against the United States rather than on behalf of the United States.
TAPPER: Sovereign countries should be able to do what they want to do.
MILLER: The Monroe Doctrine and the Trump Doctrine is all about securing the national interests of America. For years, we sent our soldiers to die in deserts in the Middle East to try to build them parliaments --
TAPPER: But Stephen --
MILLER: -- to try to build them democracies, to try to give them more oil, try to give them more resources. The future of the free world, Jake, depends on America being able to assert ourselves and our interests without apology. This whole period that happened after World War II, where the West began apologizing and groveling and begging and engaging these mass reparations schemes --
TAPPER: I don't even know honestly what you're talking about right now.
MILLER: -- it's a -- what I'm talking about, Jake, is the idea -- and by the way, you do -- I know you love doing that smarmy thing, Jake, and I was hoping it would be better than that this time.
TAPPER: I'm just -- I asked you about if there should be an election.
MILLER: You know exactly --
TAPPER: I asked you if there would be an election in Venezuela. That's what I asked. I said, why was the President so quick to dismiss Machado? You answered that question.
MILLER: Because the objective --
TAPPER: And then I said --
MILLER: The objective, Jake, is security and stability for the people of Venezuela. With our help and leadership, that country will become more prosperous than it has ever been in its whole history. Venezuelans will be richer and safer and more secure and better off.
TAPPER: But the woman running Venezuela right now is part of the Maduro regime.
MILLER: There will be conversations, Jake, about all of these guy posts along the way. The reason why I was giving you that speech, which I know you didn't want to hear, is because you're approaching this from the wrong frame, this neoliberal frame that the United States' job is to go around the world and demanding immediate elections to be held everywhere, immediately, all the time, right away to create these vacuums.
TAPPER: No, that's not what I think. But you invaded the country. We went into the country and we seized the leader of Venezuela.
MILLER: Damn straight we did.
TAPPER: And I'm saying --
MILLER: Because we're going to let --
TAPPER: So is the U.S. going to have new elections?
MILLER: The point, Jake, is that we're not going to let Tim Pott communist dictators send rapists into our country, send drugs into our country, send weapons into our country.
TAPPER: OK.
MILLER: And we're not going to let a country fall into the hands of our adversaries. The future of Venezuela, working with America, is going to be so bright and so incredible and so positive. And we'll have a conversation about everything that you raised. But the priority right now, as the President has made clear, is a judicious, thoughtful, careful transition process to secure a great future for Venezuela and to secure a great future for America.
[17:50:18]
TAPPER: All right.
MILLER: And let's just take a moment and just acknowledge, Jake, that what we've witnessed under President Trump's leadership this last week is one of the greatest foreign policy and military victories this country has ever had.
TAPPER: Stephen Miller, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
MILLER: Thank you.
TAPPER: A lot there to discuss. The panel's here. We're going to get their thoughts on what you just heard, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Our Politics Lead, we're getting new insight into how Americans are feeling about the U.S. military operation in Venezuela and what that could mean for the President politically. Here in studio is our panel. First, Mo, you just heard Stephen Miller talking. What was your reaction?
MO ELLEITHEE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GEORGETOWN INSTITUTE OF POLITICS & PUBLIC SERVICE: I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but if I was in the White House Counsel's Office right now, I would not have loved that interview. The administration has gone to great lengths explaining the fact that it didn't notify Congress in advance because this wasn't a military operation. This was a law enforcement operation.
Hearing the Deputy White House Chief of Staff's comments just now, it sounded nothing like just a law enforcement operation. He was talking about defeating a nation, how the United States defeated a nation. So that's --
TAPPER: And also about having control of our hemisphere.
ELLEITHEE: Of our government, of the hemisphere, all of it. What's also clear, though, is that there was no clearly thought out plan for what comes next. Maduro being gone, I think everybody's in agreement that Maduro being gone is a good thing for Venezuela and it's a good thing for the world.
But man, there doesn't seem to be a lot of forethought into the next steps, and that's going to come back and bite us in terms of oil, in terms of the economy, in terms of the geopolitical landscape, not just in the hemisphere --
[17:55:09]
TAPPER: Yes. ELLEITHEE: -- with vis-a-vis Russia and China. There's a lot of issues at play.
TAPPER: Scott, I'm sure you disagree.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I disagree. Look, they've allowed this vice president to be sworn in. She may be worse than Maduro, but she does see what happens when you get out of line. And so she has, and the rest of the government has incentives.
ELLEITHEE: Another law enforcement operation? That's what happens?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, there's other people down there that are under law enforcement indictment, I think, in the United States. The bottom line is they need to play ball with the United States or they're going to suffer the same or a worse fate. So I think they're going to allow this to unspool for a while.
They'll probably have an election. I don't know how soon, but there's a functioning government down there to the extent that they're smart people and want to listen to what our position on things is. They should do that. If they do, it'll probably turn out OK for them.
TAPPER: So a recent "Washington Post" poll finds Americans pretty evenly split on the operation over the weekend. Forty percent approve, 42 percent disapprove, 18 percent are unsure. When it comes to who should decide the future leadership of Venezuela, 94 percent say the Venezuelan people, 6 percent say the United States.
One thing I have to say is like this was a very successful military operation. The idea that 42 percent disapprove is a higher number than I would think. It says to me that the American people are thinking not just about this operation, but maybe more about also, well, what comes next?
JENNINGS: Well, also, it's Trump. I mean, 42 percent of the American people would oppose it if he cured cancer personally in the Oval Office tonight. I mean, there is a reflexive opposition to Trump. It is the entire platform of the Democratic Party and to the extent that that's how their leadership tells them to act, that's how the Democratic grassroots are going to see it.
You see Democrats today, who long came on this network and others and called for Maduro's ouster, demanded it, now saying they oppose the fact that Donald Trump just arrested Maduro. This reflexive opposition to everything Trump does is corrosive of the Democratic Party and you shouldn't look at these things through that lens.
You should look at it and say, highly competent military and law enforcement operation. We got rid of a bad guy. There's a better future for Venezuela and it's going to inure to the United States benefit. But you know, it's Trump. So everything must be opposed if he's for it.
TAPPER: Well, it's not just Democrats, though, because it is some of these Republicans who are, you know, MAGA before Trump was MAGA, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie, et cetera. Taylor Greene called it a betrayal of Trump's America First pledge. What happened? Thomas Massie said, wake up, MAGA. Venezuela is not about drugs. It's about oil and regime change.
JENNINGS: Massie opposed Trump, by the way, just for the record.
TAPPER: This is not what we voted for. No, I just mean like they were concerned. Well, back when Trump was a Democrat, Thomas Massie was a conservative.
JENNINGS: He was for DeSantis in '20, though. I mean, I look at --
TAPPER: My point is that do you think this is going to cause any fracture, any actual fractures in the Republican Party or is it just like a few a few members?
ELLEITHEE: I've given up trying to understand the Republican Party a long ago. I'll leave that to Scott to answer. But what I will say is I think there maybe there's an alternate explanation for that 42 percent opposition. Americans remember Iraq. They remember Libya. They remember how badly it has gone in our not so recent past when we go in for regime change without a solid plan for what comes next. What comes next with the drug cartels who thrive in instability, right? Maduro being pulled out doesn't create more stability if we don't have a plan.
What happens with those oil reserves, which we are apparently laying claim to, even though U.S. oil companies are saying we don't have the infrastructure and we don't want to pay for an infrastructure to refine those oil reserves? All of these questions that are hanging out there that we don't know, yes, maybe there is a plan, but we don't know the plan right now.
TAPPER: You think there's a plan?
JENNINGS: Well, look, the current plan, if you did nothing, would be to continue to let Maduro run a narco-terrorist state and to have Russia and China running wild on the oil down there. That's not a great plan. The new plan is America asserts its dominance. These people that just got sworn in understand who they're dealing with.
We kick our enemies out of our hemisphere and we dramatically crack down on the amount of drugs flowing out of there and all over the world. That's a better plan.
ELLEITHEE: Or we just invited more enemies in because, you know, Russia and China are picking up the phone and calling every Latin American capital saying do business with us. We won't invade you.
JENNINGS: China saw firsthand. They were in the capital when went in and got Maduro. I think they got a taste of what the American position is in a Western.
TAPPER: So quote the Zen master. We'll see. Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it. And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start with the breaking news in our World Lead right now on Capitol Hill. The top Republican and Democratic lawmakers on the Senate and House Foreign Relations, Intelligence and Armed Services committees, along with the leaders of the House and Senate and the Democratic and Republican Parties are getting a classified briefing from members of the Trump administration, including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and others.
[18:00:00]
The briefing comes after President Trump ordered the U.S. Military to conduct unprecedented strikes on Venezuela and capture its leader Nicolas Maduro and his wife.
