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The Lead with Jake Tapper

ICE Agent's Cellphone Captures Fatal Confrontation In Minneapolis; Trump Says, Admin Is Getting Along Extremely Well With Venezuela; Feds Say, Wounded Couple Associated With Violent Gang; Pope Leo Warns "War Is Back In Vogue"; Actor Ethan Hawke On Playing Famous Lyricist Lorenz Hart. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired January 09, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

More unease tonight across the Twin Cities in Minnesota after the deadly shooting of a woman in her car by an ICE agent in South Minneapolis. You're looking right now live at the scene where that shooting happened just a few miles away.

Another vigil right now at the Capitol of Minnesota in St. Paul, those gatherings coming as we're now seeing different footage, this from the cell phone of the ice agent who fired the shots that killed Renee Nicole Good, the 37-year-old US citizen.

We're about to play the video. I do want to warn you, it is disturbing, but the video gives an up close perspective of the ICE officer's view of the pivotal moments before he shot Ms. Good. Here is that video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's fine, dude. I'm not mad at it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show your face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not mad at you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's okay. We don't change our plates every morning, just so you know. Hey, they'll be the same plate when you come talk to us later. That's fine. U.S. citizen, former (INAUDIBLE). You want to come at us? You want to come at us? I said go get yourself some lunch, big boy. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the fucking car. Get out of the car.

Whoa, fucking bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's Omar Jimenez, who's been on the ground in Minneapolis monitoring the activity at the site of the shooting. Omar? OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Well, where that video ended and where the car ended up after Renee Good was shot is just behind me and it has been a growing memorial over the course of the past few days.

You know, it was initially this entire block was really closed off to vehicular traffic. It had been the center of a lot of protests and, of course, people bringing flowers and candles and things of that nature. Today is the first day we've seen a little bit of vehicular traffic open up, but what's been interesting is throughout the day, it's been pretty quiet here. People have come through solemnly laid flowers. There have been points where there have been chance and things of that nature, but less of a protest environment and more of a reflection one.

I should also note today's the first time we've seen the Minneapolis Police Department here in significant numbers at this site, but there haven't really been any conflicts with those that have come here. A lot of those conflicts have happened outside the federal building in Whipple, where we've seen some of those confrontations between federal agents and some of the protesters that were there and their faces.

You know, we talked about, this is where the vehicle ended up crashed after Renee Good was shot, a lot of reflections, a lot of feelings over that video in particular. But we're getting a sense now a little bit from what the family is feeling. We got this statement that was shared with Minnesota Public Radio by Becca Good, the wife of Renee Good. And I just want to read part of it where it says, on Wednesday, January 7th, which is the day of the shooting, we stopped to support our neighbors. We had whistles, they had guns.

Renee leaves behind three extraordinary children. The youngest is just six years old and already lost his father. I'm now left to raise our son and to continue teaching him, as Renee believed, that there are people building a better world for him, that the people who did this had fear and anger in their hearts, and we need to show them a better way.

So, obviously, a lot of politics and debate over inch by inch of this video, but, clearly, there, there does seem to be a sense of reflection coming from the Good family, at the very least. I can say that, I mean, I can't be more clear that there was a lot of anger obviously on the -- after that video came out. And we have seen large protests throughout the city, even right now.

You showed some of it a little bit earlier, not the state capitol over in St. Paul, you've got a lot of people that are there gathered in support of Renee Good, but also in protest of federal immigration presence, which we know the federal government has stepped up and we expect more federal agents to be here in the coming days, which is what we've reported to this point.

So, Jake, I think the dynamic to monitor here moving forward is, yes, people are upset. We don't know what the next steps of any federal investigation will look like. State investigators say they were going to be gathering evidence and they've made calls to gather and preserve evidence, but it's not clear that they can actually move forward with anything significant as the FBI would be the one leading it. And we don't have any indication that that collaboration is happening at this point. So, right now, it's really just a steady stream of people coming to pay their respects to Renee Good here.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez in Minneapolis, thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN's John Miller and Carrie Cordero. John, the new video released today of the ICE officer's perspective from his phone, it doesn't seem to be changing a lot of minds. It is raising more questions.

[18:05:00]

From a law enforcement perspective, did the ICE officer react in accordance with proper traditional training?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, from a law enforcement perspective, there's going to be three parts of that question. Was he tactically proficient? Was he was within his agency's policy? And then finally, and, in some ways, the most important one, were his actions legal?

From the tactically proficient standpoint, he circles around the car. Tension seemed to be very low at that point until his partner says, get out of the car and grabs the door handle. At that point, when you look at the multiple videos, you can see as the car backs up and starts to move forward, the shooting agent takes his gun out, and this video is the only video that gives us a window, if not visually, at least through the sound at that critical moment where it sounds like the vehicle makes contact or impacts the officer. We don't see it, because by then his iPhone camera is down in one hand and his gun is up in the other. But we hear the noise and we hear a groan, and then he fires.

And then the question is, could the tactics have been better? Could they have deescalated? Could he have not been positioned in front of the car? What was the reason for him taking his gun out at the time that he did instead of moving further back? Those are all questions that the agency will have to address.

And then the question of the thought, the shots, Jake, are going to be three questions. He's going to have to account for each one of those shots. What was the first shot for? And as the vehicle is passing him by, the second and third shot where he appears to be shooting into the window of the car, as it's going away from him, meaning the threat is now leaving, what were those shots for? A lot of questions still to answer.

TAPPER: And, Carrie, from a legal perspective, does this video support the case that this ICE agent acted in self-defense?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think that it does. When we're looking at the particular -- you know, the video that's out right now, I think it shows a little bit more of the context. It shows that he moved in front of the vehicle, so he placed himself in front of her vehicle. And there -- based on this particular video, it doesn't look like that she was doing anything that was threatening.

But I think, you know, we're able to look at these videos, citizens are able to look at these videos and draw their conclusions from these specific things, but it just underscores why it's so important in this kind of circumstance that there be an actual credible investigation, because these videos are not the only evidence.

TAPPER: Right.

CORDERO: There are interviews that need to be conducted by all of the many witnesses that were around.

There is -- there should be, from my perspective, potential body cam evidence from the officers if they were wearing them. DHS policy, as of a few years ago, required that DHS officers in these types of circumstances when they're doing their job should have body cam. So, I have a question as to whether or not there's body cam evidence that's relevant here. There would be the actual forensic evidence that pertains to the actual firing of the weapons. There's probably other video from potential other angles that exist or potential other witnesses. So, there's a whole range of additional evidence that would support an actual expert investigator's report on this case.

TAPPER: And, John, since President Trump took off, as CNN has been reporting on how ICE arrest tactics, have seemed to be getting more aggressive, from shattered car windows to tackling targets. DHS Assistant Secretary Tricia McLaughlin tells CNN, quote, ICE and Customs and Border Patrol are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary to resolve dangerous situations to prioritize the safety of the public and themselves.

Our officers are highly trained in de-escalation tactics and regularly receive ongoing use on forced training. But these officers are now also expected to hit this increased quota of 3,000 arrests a day cumulatively. And the public narrative the government is pushing is that they're going after the worst of the worst. John, where's the disconnect happening here between the training and what's going on in the field?

MILLER: Well, there's two kinds of ice agent right now. Agents like the one involved in this case. This agent has been an agent for more than a decade, very experienced firearms instructor, you know, on the tactical team. He's an agent with a lot of depth, which raises questions about how could he be in this situation.

But ICE recently cut the training time from six months to six weeks. ICE training at the Federal Law Enforcement Academy now is 47 days. To go on a regular big city police department, that training could be six months, nine months. That's not much training, 47 days. If you are going to have those people out on these dynamic arrest teams doing these high risk arrests or stops, and you're using some of the least experienced people in the street, but also with the least training, there's a recipe for disaster there.

[18:10:09] They've had 13 shootings, including 5 involving people trying to get out of car stops, as we saw in this, and 3 involving people who were either impeding or monitoring or filming them. So, there's been more gun play in this effort than most people have heard about out before this incident.

TAPPER: And, Carrie, U.S. District Judge Sara Ellis wrote an opinion in November looking at the federal government's treatment of protesters in press in Illinois, and some people are pointing today to that analysis of times that, in her view, the agents were using excessive force. She wrote, agents have used excessive force in response to protesters' and journalists' exercise of their First Amendment rights without justification, often without warning, even at those who had begun to comply with agents orders. What did you make of that opinion?

CORDERO: Well, here's the thing that I think, you know, requires being underscored, is that exercise of First Amendment activities is something that's supposed to be protected by the police. When law enforcement or in some cases National Guard, when they are out in the public in the context of a protest activity, their job is actually to protect the rights of the protesters, to effectuate their and implement their First Amendment rights. So, to the extent that heavy handed tactics are being used against protesters, that's actually against law enforcement, a normal way of conducting that.

But the one thing I want to mention also, Jake, is I think people are looking for accountability in this particular case. And I think that one reason that we question whether there's going to be any accountability is because the institutions within the Department of Homeland Security and within the Justice Department have been gutted.

One of the most important components for holding this type of incident properly investigated and vetted and potential accountability is the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department. Those are the lawyers that would work with the FBI to conduct an investigation to determine whether or not under the color of law this woman's civil rights were violated in this particular event, in other words, that it was not a lawful exercise of that law enforcement officer's authority.

TAPPER: All right. Carrie Cordero, John Miller, thanks to both of you.

We're turning next to the World Lead, a Republican lawmaker with questions about President Trump's plans for Venezuela is going to join us next.

And this just in, The New York Times is reporting that the Washington National Opera is leaving the Kennedy Center, or perhaps more accurately, they're leaving the Trump Kennedy Center. This may be the biggest rebuke of President Trump's takeover and renaming of his center, this and more. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00] TAPPER: Topping our World Lead, it's been nearly one week since the U.S. launched the remarkable attack on Venezuela's capital of Caracas and extracted its leader, Nicholas Maduro, and his wife. Today, a team of US diplomatic and security personnel from the U.S. State Department arrived in Venezuela for the first time since Maduro's ouster, as Venezuela's announcing the start of an exploratory diplomatic process with the U.S.

Here's President Trump earlier today after meeting with oil executives at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We're getting along extremely well with the people of Venezuela, both the people and the people that are running Venezuela.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Derrick Van Orden from Wisconsin joins us now. He's a retired Navy SEAL and serves on the House Armed Services Committee. Thanks for joining us, Congressman.

So, you told my colleague, Brianna Keilar, that you would like to know more about the timeline and the metrics for the Venezuela operation. Given that, how are you going to vote on this war powers resolution, which would, according to the nearly identical resolution voted on back in December, quote, ensure that Congress is notified of military deployments that could involve the exercise of Congressional war powers?

REP. DERRICK VAN ORDEN (R-WI): I'm going to vote no, a very strenuous, no. I think that vote in the U.S. Senate was not very well thought out. To limit the Article 2, Section 2 authorities of the president of the United States to conduct military operations as the commander-in- chief is no way to run a railroad.

And when we do this, or when the Senate did this, the House is not going to do this. We are limiting the ability for him to exercise his constitutionally enumerated powers, and that is not good from the perspective of our enemies. The enemies need to know and adversaries need to know that every single thing is on the table in a very timely manner.

TAPPER: Well, let me ask you, because President Trump was just asked by The New York Times this week what constrain his power as commander- in-chief, and he said the only thing that constraints it is his own morality. Is that your view of what constraints any president's powers as commander-in-chief? Are you comfortable with that as a precedent for the next Democratic president as well?

ORDEN: This is what I'm comfortable with. The president of the United States, Democrat or Republican, have the freedom of movement to conduct limited raids or very limited operations. And if we are going to get into any type of sustained ground combat operations, then Congress must approve it. So, I do not agree with, and I would not support putting uniform members of the military service in Venezuela to conduct ground combat.

Now, if we open our embassy, get the embassy going again, who protects embassies? The United States Marines. So, there'd be uniform members of the United States military protecting the United States military -- or, excuse me, governmental property. If they need to escort our State Department folks around, that's not sustained ground combat.

But there is an interplay between Title 1 -- excuse me. Yes, sorry, Title 1 and Title 2 authorities, Congress and the executive branch. And so the Congress, if we're going to have to allocate funds, which is one of the primary functions of Congress itself, the Article 1 authority, then we have to be consulted by the Article 2 authority, which is the executive branch.

TAPPER: Let's turn to healthcare because you were one of a handful of Republicans, 17 to be precise, who voted to extend Obamacare subsidies, joining with Democrats.

[18:20:08]

You told our Manu Raju a lot of your constituents depend on these programs. You also said the vote was still very difficult for you. I know you're not a fan of Obamacare in general, but tell us more about why it was difficult.

ORDEN: Well, because Obamacare is a broken system. Insurance companies' profit margin has increased between 1,000 and 1,300 percent since the enactment of the unaffordable care act, and I don't think our healthcare has improved 1,300 percent. So, the system itself is broken and we need to make sure that we fix the system.

Now, last month in December, we passed the Lower Healthcare Premiums for All Americans Act, which would lower healthcare premiums for Americans, just like it says in the bill. It would also get visibility on PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers. It would allow small businesses to get together collectively so they can bargain for better insurance rates. That's the beginning of a real fix.

And then when we start looking at the vertical integration of healthcare insurance companies, with physicians, with PBMs, with the pharmacies and the pharmaceutical companies, that's when we're really going to start making weights to make sure that everyday Americans have healthcare that they can afford.

This is what I want. This is the end state. We need to have readily available, high quality, actual, affordable healthcare for all Americans. And cutting off these subsidies that were voted for 100 percent Democratic votes, let's not forget that, that was a cliff. What we need is a glide path to get to the place where Americans don't have to bring their hands if they get sick.

So, to me, it was a bridge too far. We would've had about 60,000 Wisconsinites lose their healthcare insurance, including thousands of my constituents. So, I didn't vote with Democrats. I voted for the residents of the Third Congressional State of -- Third Congressional District of Wisconsin and the State of Wisconsin. That's my job. My title is representative.

And when I was a Navy SEAL, Jake, I did things all lawful, mind you, but I did a lot of stuff that I was really uncomfortable with. But I knew it had to be done because otherwise the mission would fail. Well, in this case, the mission is making sure that our Wisconsinites and the rest of Americans who truly need healthcare have it.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Derrick Van Orden from the Great Badger State of Wisconsin, thank you, sir. It's good to see you.

ORDEN: That is correct. Yes. Good to see you too. May God bless you and your viewers.

TAPPER: Thank you.

My next guest wrote a book that inspired the hit Hulu series, Dopesick, that divided into -- the book dived into America's opioid crisis. Now, that author is running for Congress and joining us here next on The Lead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, the author whose book inspired Hulu's hit show Dopesick, a series about America's struggle with opioid abuse is now running for Congress. Beth Macy, we've had her on the show, is running as a Democrat in Virginia's Sixth Congressional district, which we should note has not elected a Democrat since 1990. It's currently represented by four-term Republican Ben Cline.

Beth Macy joins us now. Beth, thanks so much for joining us. You know, we're a huge fan of your journalism, your writing.

We usually see politicians who write books and then go on to become bestselling authors, politician first, then an author, not the other way around, author, then politician. What made you decide you wanted to run for office?

BETH MACY (D), VIRGINIA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Yes. I sort of wrote myself into it. My last book is a memoir called Paper Girl, a Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America, and Geraldine Brooks said, it's more than a memoir, it's a manifesto. By the end of the book, I'm getting really worked up about, you know, the lack of democracy that I see coming on, and I sort of give a kind of manifesto about how we all have to get involved and we have to run better people for office and we have to fight back against all these DOGE and OBBB cuts.

And I started participating in rallies outside Ben Cline's office. He won't -- he's one of those that won't hold town halls of any size or quantity. And people started asking me to run, I guess, because of my name recognition and because of the fact I've been here for almost 40 years reporting about working people and people who have suffered from so many policies, you know, forced by Democrats and Republicans alike, like NAFTA, which took so many jobs away, and then the opioid crisis, which hit these rural areas the hardest. TAPPER: So, here's the number one question I have for you. As someone who has studied and chronicled the origin and the evolution of the opioid epidemic in the United States, which is largely a self- inflicted wound by Americans against other Americans, what would you do to combat this crisis as a member of Congress? What has not already been done that needs to be done to end this crisis? And in a lot of cases, the opioid crisis has merged and become an opioid and fentanyl crisis.

MACY: Right, right, right. Well, as I learned when I -- my new book, I go back to my hometown, which is in rural Ohio, and I report on the changes in 40 years, in a real, like as a microcosm of what happened to America.

And the first thing we did was we took the ability for a poor kid with decent grades to go to college for free. I went to college for free. We were so poor. I grew up in a family of poverty and addiction. Now, that same kid would only have 30 percent of their college paid for. So, I think we need to double pill.

The healthcare situation in this country is unconscionable. We are about to lose -- 350,000 Virginians are going to lose their Medicaid after the midterms, which is diabolical. And we know that Medicaid was the number one way that men, in particular, those dying disproportionately of deaths of despair were able to access evidence- based addiction treatment. So, we have to -- I think the end game should be Medicare for all, frankly, but we have to first restore those cuts.

I just wrote a Substack today about the subsidies expiring, and I'm talking to small business owners are being killed by that.

[18:30:06]

We're talking about people who own shops, people who are small contractors. Their rates are quadrupling in some cases, and in a lot of cases, I interviewed a single mom yesterday whose just not going to have insurance at all.

TAPPER: Beth Macy, thank you so much. We'll have you back. I really appreciate it.

MACY: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Authorities in Portland, Oregon, just had a news conference on the shooting there involving a border patrol agent and two individuals. The police chief is going to join me next after an emotional moment and a statement he felt he needed to say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: We have some breaking news in our National Lead. Authorities in Oregon have just wrapped up a news conference about Thursday's shooting in Portland that wounded a man and a woman. A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman says that the driver of a vehicle tried to run over a Border Patrol agent and the agent opened fire in self- defense in a social media post today.

The Department of Homeland Security stated that both of the individuals who were shot are in the country illegally and associated with the violent international gang, Tren de Aragua.

[18:35:04]

Joining us now is Bob Day. He's the chief of the Portland Police Bureau. Chief Day, thanks for joining us. So, you just confirmed that the people involved who were shot have some nexus with Tren de Aragua. Tell us more about that.

CHIEF BOB DAY, PORTLAND POLICE BUREAU: Yes, Jake, thanks for having me. So, in July of last year, we had a reported shooting here in the city, the victim self-identified at as a Venezuelan immigrant. That victim expressed to us information around Tren de Aragua, or TDA, which led to an investigation with some other regional agencies. And we were able to identify these two folks as being associated. That does not mean that they were responsible for the shooting. We do not have them as suspects, but there is an affiliation there, yes.

TAPPER: I want to play a moment from your news conference just a few minutes ago after you revealed the new information. You said you wanted to speak directly to the Latino community. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAY: It saddens me that we even have to qualify these remarks because I understand, or at least have attempted to understand through your voices, your concern, your fear, your anger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Yes. You seem to have been emotional there as you said that. Just on a human level, what is it like to be a police chief right now in this current political climate?

DAY: Well, I'm immensely proud to be a Portland police officer and to represent the men and women of the Police Bureau and have a love and a passion for the city of Portland. In fact, I came out of retirement to do this and I wouldn't be here if I didn't care deeply. And I also have such utmost respect for our Latino community and leaders and all of our immigrant Portlanders.

And so balancing the multiple competing views that are occurring both in our community locally and nationally, weighs on me heavily as I try to meet the demands and expectations of all Portlanders and their value and worth and their -- what it means to me in the area of public safety.

TAPPER: President Trump has sure had a lot to say about Portland and how safe Portland is. He's described it sounds like a war zone, the way he describes it.

DAY: Yes, that's disappointing. We are -- have had our issues. I am not one to shy away from the challenges that the city faces. This past year, we saw a reduction in homicide by about double digits. We've seen a reduction in our fatalities. We've seen a significant reduction in our shootings. Auto theft is down almost 30 percent. Our applications and hiring is growing. People are seeking the Portland Police Bureau as a place to work. The city is experiencing a time of renaissance under Mayor Wilson. And I'm really greatly encouraged and hopeful to build on that in 2026.

TAPPER: Portland Police Chief Bob Day, thank you so much for your time today, sir. I appreciate it.

DAY: Thanks, Jake. Take care. Be safe.

TAPPER: A stunner tonight from The New York Times reporting that the Washington National Opera is leaving the Kennedy Center, or, more accurately, they're leaving the Trump Kennedy Center. We're going to talk about this one and more next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: Back in our Politics Lead, we heard some unusually strong criticism from German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who is saying that the Trump administration is destroying world order. And he is warning against turning into a den of robbers where the most unscrupulous take whatever they want, where regions or entire countries are treated as the property of a few great powers, unquote.

Our panel is back with us just now. I mean, Germany is a very close ally of the United States.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yes. I don't really -- whatever a Walter Steinmeier is, I don't really take much stock over --

TAPPER: The president?

GORMAN: President, very -- a lot of power.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not a Joe Schmoe.

GORMAN: Yes, no. But I -- well, I will say this, you know? Let's -- I think he's assuming he's just talking about Venezuela, for instance. One of the things that has not been talked about with when it comes to Venezuela is, you know, the Germans are so emphatic that we need to be helping Ukraine. The Russian arms stockpile in Venezuela is the most out of a set of any active of war zone. Venezuela got $9 billion the most in the Western Hemisphere of foreign weapons. Us being able to have at least some counterintelligence into that will help Ukraine, will help the Germans.

And, look, if they want to step up, if you stop paying for social services to really essentially bribe their population of immigration and step up with some national defense.

TAPPER: It is a largely ceremonial position, the president. I don't want to overstate it.

CARDONA: Yes.

TAPPER: What's your reaction to what he had to say?

CARDONA: Well, it's not just Venezuela. I think what he is stating it is a reaction and a sentiment that is shared by many, I think, leaders, especially in Europe. And this is not the first time we've heard of this kind of sentiment coming from our own allies where they no longer -- and there was even like a global poll that was done on this. They no longer can count on the United States to be the staunch ally that it has been up until now.

And all of this is since Trump took office. Why? Because he has pulled us out of so many of global trade alliances and pacts and everything that kind of focuses on trying to make things better for the global community. Venezuela is certainly a part of it. How he's now talking about Greenland, he's talking about going after Columbia and Mexico. I mean, the way that he talks the warmongering language coming out of this president, I think, leads to these kinds of comments.

TAPPER: We all remember in Trump's first term when he and Pope Francis would have words or Pope Francis would say something and President Trump would have words on Twitter.

CARDONA: Right.

TAPPER: Pope Leo, the first American pope, is also expressing some concern. He, during his very first state of the world address, said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE LEO XIV: War is back in vogue and zeal for war is spreading. The principle established after the Second World War, which prohibited nations from using force to violate the borders of others, has been completely undermined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:45:10]

TAPPER: Now, look, he could be talking about any number of countries, including Russia and Ukraine, but -- I mean, he might also be talking about Venezuela.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: He might be, I didn't know, frankly, war was out of vogue. I guess I must've been asleep for the last 70 years.

But look, I certainly I love the pope. He has his priorities. We have ours. We have obviously, if we want to be strong in the world stage, as we were just talking about, we have to take a leadership role in some of this. And I think Venezuela takes a part of that.

And obviously, these are the same Europeans that want us to step up in Ukraine. So, you can't have it both ways, certainly. You can't say that, you know, war is terrible and you can't show leadership on the world stage, but then, you know, beg for it when the time comes as well.

But that's the pope's job. He has to decry war to ours.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That is the pope's job. And what's interesting is to see how J.D. Vance, a Catholic, right, responds to those kinds of comments. But for Pope Leo to say something like that, Jake, as you know, he was -- he's a little bit less not bombastic, but outspoken than Pope Francis was.

And for him to say something like this, I think really hits home with a similar issue, that what we were talking about the German president, right?

I think people on the global stage are lamenting that the United States, whereas we used to be very confident in our military power, that we didn't have to go out there and talk about it and threaten our allies and try to get cozy with strongman. That's what Trump is doing. And I don't think it's doing the United States any favors. Reputationally across the world.

GORMAN: I will just say it's a feature, not a bug. If Trump is getting criticized by the ceremonial German president and the pope, who we like, that's not something he sees as a disadvantage, and it's not going to incentivize him, stop, incentivize him to continue.

CARDONA: And I think that's a problem.

TAPPER: This news just coming in today. The Washington National Opera says that they're going to part ways with the Kennedy Center. Or more accurately, we should probably say they're parting ways with the Trump Kennedy Center.

A statement provided to "The New York Times" says the group decided to, quote, seek amicable early termination of its affiliation agreement with the Kennedy Center and resume operations as a fully independent, nonprofit entity. This does follow a wave of recent, cancellations, including Bela Fleck after President Trump and his installed individuals, his allies on the board there sought more control over the performing arts center, even renaming it the Kennedy Center.

This is having a financial cost. The -- what the president has done with the Kennedy Center.

GORMAN: I'm curious again, we know, we know in this in this story. It's broken in the last hour. I'm curious how -- what the enforcement mechanisms are for this affiliation agreement. Is it one sided or is there some type of lease or contract that they have to honor? And if that's the case, does this go into court one way or another?

It's an unfortunate situation all the way around. I'm not sure if there's enforcement mechanisms on a contract, on an agreement. How does how does that happen? And we'll know in the next days or weeks. CARDONA: I just think it's such a shame that a storied institution

like the Kennedy Center is losing these kinds of performances the culture, the art, the history. And I've heard of so many other artists that have just canceled outright because, again, this is not dissimilar to what we were talking about before, the way that Trump has insinuated himself into this institution, this storied institution, and is essentially making everyone think were not welcome there or we don't do -- we don't agree with the way that this guy is now kind of taking over the Kennedy Center, taking over politics the way that he talks.

It's, I think, very similar. Whereas its culture, it's our arts, and they don't want anything to do with the president of the United States.

TAPPER: I do wonder, Matt, we only have a minute left. Like how much of this is stylistic? But with both of these stories, one, it's not so much the military operation in Venezuela, perhaps, as is it is the expression of, oh, now we're going to go to Colombia, now we're going to go to Mexico, now we're going to go to Cuba. Now we're going to see Greenland.

It's not so much the Trump people taking over the Kennedy Center as it was the renaming of it. It's possible that that's part of it.

GORMAN: Look, and I take your point. But I also would say we've been having these stylistic conversations for ten years now. If people are suddenly dawning that Trump, you know, he has a different style than most politicians, then I don't -- you must be under a rock for the last 10 years, I guess.

And again, I think -- when ceremonial presidents or having picking fights with the Kennedy Center, Harvard, that benefits him in his mind and certainly among his base more than anything else. That is not something he's going to stop because he got -- the Washington National Opera was offended.

TAPPER: All right.

CARDONA: That's why his poll numbers are so high, right?

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both of you.

There's a lot of Oscar buzz surrounding the latest film starring our next guest, Ethan Hawke. The actor joins THE LEAD to dish on that. And what has become a touching family affair.

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[18:53:54]

TAPPER: In our pop culture lead, a famous songwriter walks into a bar. No, I'm not starting a joke. That's the premise for one of this year's buzziest films, "Blue Moon". It follows American lyricist Lorenz Hart, played by Ethan Hawke. As Hart reflects on himself and just about everything else, while his former partner Richard Rodgers celebrates the opening of his new musical "Oklahoma!"

Joining us now is the star of "Blue Moon", Ethan Hawke.

Ethan, it's a fantastic film, very performance driven. Your character is -- it's not a monologue, but there's a lot of dialogue. It feels like a play. And I mean that in a good way. Was it a daunting task for you? Because it is all in one room, in one setting on one night?

ETHAN HAWKE, ACTOR: Yeah. I mean, what you're speaking of is the challenges of was it daunting? Yeah. But when you started acting when you were 14, you kind of hunger for those weird challenges. I first read the script, and it was just brilliant. I couldn't believe how wonderful this dialogue was, and I just wanted the film to exist.

Learning the lines for it. I would just sit there up all night giggling.

[18:55:01]

So yeah, it was daunting, but it was the reason to do the movie.

TAPPER: You've worked with the director Richard Linklater, so many times over the years. Does having a guy like Richard Linklater there having such a strong working relationship with the director, make it easier to become somebody so unlike you?

HAWKE: It was -- it's a really interesting question. Linklater has spent years of his life editing my performances. He knows every trick in my toolbox, and he came up to me early in rehearsal and said, the job here is, I don't want to see you for the next five weeks. I need you to disappear.

And so, every time that id be working and doing a speech or doing a scene or and I would feel like it was going well afterwards, he would look at me and say, I saw you. It was basically a deductive process of how to get rid of all my normal, you know, the skill sets that I use to perform and try to come up with new ones.

TAPPER: The way that Lorenz Hart bounces from character to character in this bar with jokes and stories commanding the room. It's so different from how he interacts with this woman, Elizabeth Welland, played by Margaret Qualley.

Can you talk a bit about how you approach the scenes with her?

HAWKE: Well, one of the things that made this part so unbelievable is that it was -- the correlation of opposites. He, you know, if you see a very overweight person dance beautifully, that's the correlation of opposites. You can't take your eyes off of them. Marlon Brando is a perfect example. Deeply masculine, deeply feminine performer. And so, there was this magic to him.

And Larry Hart was the smallest, most diminutive person in the room and the biggest person in the room. He's a closeted homosexual and he's in love with a woman. He's vain and bitter, and he's warm and hospitable. And so, it was -- to do these scenes with Margaret was the most magic

element of the film, because he is madly in love with her, and he's probably gay.

TAPPER: So, this is a story about a writer. It talks extensively about writing. There's a -- E.B. White is a character in the film. Did you work with the script writers at all to change any of the script to fine tune the lines to bolster the performance?

HAWKE: Well, people who know Linklater's work well know that he's an incredibly patient man. Rick gave me this script over 10 years ago, and we would do a reading of it about every other year, and we would all give notes. Robert Kaplow wrote the first script, and it was brilliant out of the gate.

But Rick understood the level of difficulty here, trying to do a movie in real time, in one place, and to make that cinematic was a huge task to make that interesting and dynamic for the audience. And so, we would just work on it and polish it and polish it and polish it and polish it until finally, after about ten years, Rick said, all right, we're ready. Let's shoot this thing.

TAPPER: Before you go, I have to ask you a question on behalf of my 18-year-old daughter, because your daughter is having a Dead Poets Society of her own right now. She just closed this worldwide phenomenon. She's one of the actors on "Stranger Things". What is that like to see your daughter go through kind of what you went through with Dead Poets Society, just this universal acclaim and love?

HAWKE: You know, the world is full of all this noise about what's difficult about aging. And they don't tell you these secret magic blessings that are coming your way, watching your kids develop into adults that you admire is like the greatest gift of my life right now. She called me to wish me luck right before this interview, you know?

And, you know, we had a laugh about it. You know, there's some stuff online that there's some scenes in "Stranger Things" that are slightly reminiscent of a scene in reality bites. And we were daydreaming about whether that was deliberate or subconscious or. But she's absolutely wonderful, and her siblings are incredible as well.

And we spent New Year's watching Maya on "Stranger Things" just like the rest of America, and I couldn't imagine. It's the best New Year's of my life.

TAPPER: Ethan, it's so great talking to you. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the movie "Blue Moon".

HAWKE: Keep up the great work.

TAPPER: Thank you. It's available to rent and buy online right now. Fantastic film.

Ethan Hawke, thanks.

Coming up Sunday morning, a special two hour "STATE OF THE UNION" starting at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. We're going to have Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia and Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma.

Then at 9:00 Eastern, we're going to have Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara. We'll also have an exclusive interview with the governor of Illinois, Democrat J.B. Pritzker.

That's all Sunday on CNN and on the CNN app. And until then, you can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Bluesky and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and on Instagram @TheLeadCNN.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can watch the show on the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. I will see you Sunday morning.