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Fed Fight; Clintons Refuse To Testify On Capitol Hill; Supreme Court Takes Up Trans Sports Bans; Clintons Refuse To Testify In House Epstein Investigation; Defense Department Studying Device Possibly Linked To Havana Syndrome. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired January 13, 2026 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:10]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD, I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, President Trump hits the road for a speech on the economy. He declares that affordability is a fake word. But with so many Americans still struggling to pay their bills, is that really the message Republicans want the President pushing?
Plus, former President Bill Clinton is refusing to testify on Capitol Hill in the House Oversight Committee's Jeffrey Epstein investigation. And now former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says she won't show up tomorrow either. Are they both about to be held in contempt of Congress?
Also, new CNN reporting is shedding light on what may have caused that serious, mysterious symptom disease impacting US spies and diplomats abroad, what's called Havana Syndrome. Sources say the device under investigation that might be causing this has Russian components. And the US Supreme Court today hearing arguments over state of transgender students participating in girls and women's sports.
Last hour, we spoke with the West Virginia attorney general whose state is arguing in favor of that ban. This hour, we're going to hear from the attorney for one of the two transgender athletes challenging these state laws.
THE LEAD tonight, President Trump in Michigan promoting his economic policies as high prices continue to weigh on many Americans. In his speech at the Detroit Economic Club, Trump teased a series of affordability policies set to be rolled out in the coming weeks, including on health care and on housing. The President also launching new attacks at the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, and adding on, quote, hopefully he'll be out of there soon.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House. And, Kaitlan, you just asked a top Trump White House adviser about this.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And, Jake, when the President said that, he referred to Jay Powell as a jerk in that speech at the Detroit Economic Club today, criticizing him again for not cutting interest rates, certainly not as fast as the President would like to see, which is at the root of everything that's been playing out, including this criminal investigation that Jerome Powell revealed that he is the subject of, as he did on Sunday night.
And so, I asked Kevin Hassett, who is one of the president's not only top economic advisers here at the White House, Jake, but also a leading contender to replace Jay Powell as the chairman of the Federal Reserve here today, about this criminal investigation and whether or not it would be happening if these interest rates had been cut.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: If Jay Powell had cut interest rates, would he be the subject of a criminal investigation right now?
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: President Trump and the White House press offices discussed that matter.
COLLINS: But what's your view --
(CROSSTALK)
HASSETT: I have nothing (inaudible).
COLLINS: Well, you said you have a high regard for him. So, do you believe he's done anything wrong here?
HASSETT: I think his policies have been different from what I would have done quite a few times. I think he's made some policy moves, but I think that's what I prefer talking about.
COLLINS: But it sounds like -- it sounds like you don't think it's appropriate that he's under criminal investigation.
HASSETT: I'm not going to have further comment on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There was a remarkable moment during that, Jake, though, where Kevin Hassett did say that he holds Jay Powell in high regard. He said obviously there when I followed up that he doesn't agree with a lot of the decisions he's made as the Fed chair. But even saying that alone was still remarkable given the President a few hours before had just called him a jerk and has repeatedly gone after him, even as the White House has denied that he directed Jeanine Pirro, his US attorney here in Washington, to launch that criminal investigation that Jay Powell is now the subject of.
And, Jake, one question that has been raised here in Washington is given the blowback that this investigation has generated from not just some Republicans on Capitol Hill who normally don't even come close to criticizing the President, but also people on Wall street, people like Jamie Dimon, something the President was responding today saying maybe Jamie Dimon likes high interest rates is what the president told reporters, is it does raise questions about what is going to happen to the President's pick to replace Jay Powell as the next Fed chair and the questions they are going to face from not just Democrats but also Republicans on Capitol Hill when it comes to what they would do should they get confirmed by the Senate to this position. TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks so much. And, of course, don't miss Caitlin on her show later tonight, it's THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS. Her guests this evening include Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma. That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.
Let's turn now to someone from Michigan, Republican Congressman John James. He's an Iraq War veteran and serves on the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Manufacturing and Trade.
Congressman, good to see you as always.
While President Trump was in your home state insisting that the economy is doing great, the Michigan Democratic Party is citing a poll of Michiganders who were asked to grade Trump's handling of the economy. And the Democrats said twice as many respondents gave President Trump an F as gave him an A in that poll, I think from the Detroit News. What's your response?
REP. JOHN JAMES (R-MI): Well, Michigan Democrat Party and Democrats around the country wouldn't give the President credit (inaudible) cancer from behind the resolute desk in the Oval Office. The fact of the matter is, people of Michigan, remember Biden inflation that caused $1,000 per month increase in prices for Michigan families.
But we also recognize the great effort that the Republican House and Senate and President Trump signing the One Big Beautiful Bill into law helps offset the cost of buying a new car. Car loans are now tax deductible. I'm also personally working on things to increase the affordability of housing and increase transparency and health care so that the people have the choice.
The people recognize what's happening and we don't measure the success of the economy by the stock market. We measure it at the grocery store. The cost of eggs are coming down. Affordability is a real concern, and that is what we're all focused on.
TAPPER: Well, as you say, affordability continues to be a real concern and polls indicate that most Americans, you know, hold President Trump, not President Biden, responsible. In addition to the measures you just outlined, what else do you think President Trump should be doing? Do you have concerns about the tariffs?
JAMES: Well, when you look at what President Trump has already done by negotiating tough deals, he's brought trillions of dollars back investment from manufacturing. Specifically, you have Stellantis is going to be investing a quarter billion dollars in Michigan. General Motors over the next couple of years, $2 billion in Orion plant, that's hundreds of jobs in the state of Michigan. Corning in Michigan, $1.5 billion investing in additional jobs.
These are things that would not have happened if President Trump didn't take a leadership effort. And this is a state that was hit hardest among all the states with NAFTA, 300,000 jobs, automotive jobs lost in Michigan since 1995, and the President in his first term negotiating USMCA, which is a better term, and then also continuing to push to make sure that Americans aren't behind.
Look, we are absolutely not going to move forward in the future while discarding people who work so hard to build this country. Michigan is not afraid of the future, but we demand to be a part of it.
TAPPER: So last year, President Trump promised to revive American manufacturing. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows the manufacturing industry shed 8,000 jobs just last month. That's the eighth straight month of losses for an industry, which I don't need to tell you, is critical for the Michigan economy. What can be done there?
JAMES: Absolutely critical. And we can start by addressing our energy costs. The Green New Deal agenda that Gretchen Whitmer is pushing in the state of Michigan is absolutely ballooning our energy costs. And what do manufacturing need?
We need sustainable, economical, reliable energy. And with these Green New Deal agendas and policies, it's increasing the amount that rate payers, both residential and industrial are paying. And frankly, we need relief. We need to have an all of the above approach that actually works, that will lower energy costs which will continue to incentivize manufacturing jobs.
I'm running for governor of the state of Michigan because I believe that we need the tax toward and regulatory reform to make Michigan a more attractive state to do business so that we can grow not just jobs, but grow job creators. These are the types of policies that are going to work in the real world and I'm excited to bring that to the front over the next year.
TAPPER: So let's talk about that because as you know, you're running as a Republican candidate for governor in Michigan. And yesterday I interviewed one of the Democratic candidates, Sheriff Christopher Swanson. I want you to take a listen to his take on that ICE shooting in Minneapolis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS SWANSON, GENESSEE COUNTY, MICHIGAN SHERIFF: There was no de- escalation, went from verbal orders to deadly force in three seconds, to somebody was unarmed turning away at two miles an hour with people surrounding the vehicle with whistles. You take the things that are in context at that moment and you make a decision. Was that decision to use deadly force the best decision? I don't think the American people think that and I certainly don't think that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you think, sir?
JAMES: Well, as somebody who's actually been shot at in combat, someone who's actually been at a two way live fire range. I understand what it means to make a split second life and death decision. And the officer who was standing up enforcing federal law had already been accosted by a vehicle before. He absolutely used proportional force to the threat to his life. And of course, this was a tragedy that could have been avoided. But all of the hate and vitriol that's being spewed at our law enforcement officers, if you want to take a look at a terrible fascist regime, you don't have to look any further than the 2,000 Iranians who've been killed protesting for their freedom. These are the things that we're seeing around but we are enforcing our nation's laws to keep our streets safe and to make those false equivalencies are wrong and dangerous.
TAPPER: You called it a proportional response. You have no question about any of the ambient ambiguities in the videos?
JAMES: Of course, when you look at the videos from different angles. But the fact of the matter is, someone with boots on the ground had already been accosted by a vehicle. And he has a right to defend himself and the people around him. And so, when you have an officer, a vehicle of deadly force, I guarantee you, Jake, that if he had been hurt and killed, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. And there are many people on the left who would have been celebrating it.
I don't think that there's anything here to be happy about, but I think that absolutely, in any walk of life, like Chris Rock said a while ago, how not to get your ass kicked by the police. If you are obeying the law and abiding by the laws of this country, you have nothing to fear from law enforcement.
TAPPER: Republican Congressman John James, the great state of Michigan. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time.
JAMES: Thank you.
TAPPER: The US Supreme Court heard arguments today in two cases challenging transgender sports bans. I'm going to talk to one of the lawyers who argued against the bans in moments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Our Law and Justice Lead, after hearing arguments in two critical cases today, the conservative majority of the Supreme Court, at least according to court watchers, appears poised to uphold state bans on transgender athletes competing in girls and women's sports. One of the bans is centered, one of the cases is centered on West Virginia student athlete Becky Pepper-Jackson, who competes for her high school's track and field team.
She and her family brought their case against the state of West Virginia in 2021, fighting for her right to race when she was just in sixth grade. Now she does shot put and the discus. Here with us now, Joshua Block. He's the senior staff attorney for the ACLU's LGBTQ and HIV Project, who represented Pepper-Jackson in court today. Thanks so much for joining us.
[18:15:07] So up to this point, she has been successful in arguing her case, or
you have been successful in arguing her case in lower courts? It does seem like it was more of an uphill battle with the conservative majority Supreme Court today. What did you make of the line of questioning from the justices?
JOSHUA BLOCK, STAFF ATTORNEY, ACLU'S LGBTQ AND HIV PROJECT: Oh, I think the justices were very careful. They paid close attention to it. Justice Kavanaugh mentioned that he acknowledges that this is a complicated issue with harm on both sides. What I'd like to say is that, you know, there's a lot of talk when it comes to this issue about, you know, men and women's sports.
And the reality is that, the one and only transgender girl who's known to want to participate in sports in West Virginia isn't some, you know, hulking man., all right. It's Becky Pepper-Jackson, you know, who had transitioned back in third grade. She had puberty blockers at the onset of puberty. Then she had estrogen to go through, a female hormonal puberty. So all the musculoskeletal characteristics of a typical female she has. And I think the reality of who these bans are affecting is very different from the rhetoric we often see.
TAPPER: So the West Virginia, I mean, I made that point to the West Virginia attorney general who's on the other side of you in this case, earlier in the show, and he said that the argument that you're making for this discrete group of transgender individuals who transition before puberty means that the arguments of others for people who transition, like 14, 15, 16, 17, whatever, like that your argument would discriminate against them, against transgender athletes who transition either during or after puberty.
BLOCK: Yes. I don't think that's true at all. I think that we have also the case on behalf of an athlete who transitioned in college. And in both cases, there's a factual question, has the medical treatment mitigated or eliminated these sex-based advantages?
And what is so awkward about coming to the court in this posture is that, that factual question isn't actually before the court. In order for them to win, and this is the argument they were making, that in order for them to win, the court has to let them discriminate even if they're wrong about the facts and even if there's no advantage. That's the argument that they made today.
TAPPER: So during the first case, which involved an Idaho college student athlete, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who posed this thought to the attorney for that athlete. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: The individual girl who does not make the team or doesn't get on the stand for the medal was or doesn't make all league, there's a harm there. And I think we can't sweep that aside.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Justice Kavanaugh, in addition to being a conservative jurist, he comes to this as someone who coached his daughter's basketball team. He also talked about the growth of women and girls sports over the last 50 years in America and its successes. I guess his argument is Becky Pepper-Jackson's success takes a spot away from a cisgender, as you would call it, girl, and that's a harm to that girl.
BLOCK: Yes. You know, in sports, no one likes to lose. Everyone does their best. Everyone wants to win. Everyone has a parent there that's cheering for them and wants them to win.
The nature of sports is not everyone wins. And that's true whether a cisgender girl or a transgender girl is participating. And so, I think the real question is Becky's participation unfair in a way? Does she have physiological advantages that cisgender girls don't?
And the evidence showed, and we are prepared to prove a trial that as a result of her medical care, she does not have any of those physiological advantages. And if that's the case, then losing to Becky, I fully understand that's a very disappointing outcome for someone, but it is the same outcome as losing to a talented cisgender girl.
TAPPER: All right. Josh Block, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.
TAPPER: President Trump says he's meeting with top national security officials tonight about the next steps when it comes to Iran. This comes just hours after President Trump threatened strong action against the Iranian regime if it executes protesters. I'm going to get reaction from the very first Iranian American Democrat ever elected to the House, that's next.
[18:19:35]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our worldly deadly unrest continues in Iran for the 16th consecutive day, more than 16,000 protesters in Iran and at least 2,403 have been killed. According to the human rights activists' new agency, the actual death toll could be significantly higher as the country enters the fifth day of an internet blackout. Despite that disturbing videos are emerging from Iran, shedding light on the scale of the unrest.
Democratic Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari of Arizona joins us now. She's the very first Iranian American Democrat elected to Congress. Congresswoman, President Trump is now headed to a meeting with his national security team on Iran. Earlier today, he said the US Would take very strong action if the regime hangs detained Iranians.
What steps would you like the Trump administration to take to support the people of Iran?
REP. YASSAMIN ANSARI (D-AZ): Thank you, Jake, for having me. As you showed, the images and the videos and the stories coming out of Iran are horrifying. People are saying that the numbers are actually above 12,000 in terms of the number of people who have been murdered. And the Iranian people are very clear that they want an end to the Islamic Republic regime.
There are a number of actions that are non-military in nature that Donald Trump could take immediately to support Iranian people. We know that internet has been a massive issue as the regime has completely shut down internet, essentially disconnecting Iranian people from the rest of the world and committing their crimes in the dark.
[18:25:12]
And we need direct to sell connectivity. This is something that the US government can fund and support. We need Congress to appropriate funding that's already been authorized in the NDAA and the Freedom Act to pass, which again focuses on that direct to sell. There's also options when it comes to cyber attacks to go after some of the regime's military apparatus. I think strength -- or weakening the regime is something that will be very important.
They're already weaker than they have ever been with 30 percent of the top leadership in the Islamic Republic having been wiped out during the 12 Day War last year. It's also notable to say that, you know, with the lack of Internet connectivity and with the lack of information and getting in and out of Iran. Remember last year Donald Trump's administration cut funding for Voice of America. And Kari Lake runs the US Agency for Global Media.
They have cut off since last year the transmitter for the Persian language radio that gets to Iran. That needs to be restored immediately. And any additional support to human rights groups who are holding these perpetrators of the crimes accountable. Again, lots of their -- is that can be done, supportive opposition movements, et cetera. And it would be very helpful to the Iranian people for there to be some sort of action in that realm as soon as possible.
TAPPER: So we're told that White House envoy, Steve Witkoff, met privately over the weekend with Iran's exiled former prince, Reza Pahlavi, the son of the former shah, to discuss the ongoing unrest in Iran. Pahlavi has acknowledged communicating with officials from the Trump administration. Let me run a little bit of what he had to say to Norah O'Donnell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORAH O'DONNELL, CBS NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Are you communicating directly with President Trump or members of the Trump administration?
REZA PAHLAVI, IRAN'S EXILED CROWN PRINCE: Yes, we are. I think the President said it best. He said, you know, we'll see what happens. And I think part of the consideration is that they already know what we propose as an alternative, as a transition. Right now the focus is on the immediate issue. I think the world is waiting to see in what way the Iranian people -- we see that they are not alone in side.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: I know that both the shah and the prince are controversial figures. What do you make of these meetings and Pahlavi statement there?
ANSARI: Look, I think there are many people on the streets of Iran and in the diaspora who support the son of the late shah. I think what is most important from my perspective as an American congresswoman is that I don't think the United States should be determining who that leader is. That's up to the Iranian people to decide.
I think we should do whatever we can to support a peaceful and democratic transition, to support free and fair elections for the people of Iran. I think there's a long, long history of the United States and other foreign powers getting involved in Iran militarily and even overthrowing a democratically-elected prime minister back in 1953 that has led to decades of mistrust between the United States and Iran.
And so, whoever that leader is, great. But right now, I think it's important for within the country of Iran and in the diaspora for people to come together. The enemy is the Islamic Republic regime. That's who is murdering people. That's who's torturing people and that's who needs to, you know, we need to see an end to the regime.
TAPPER: Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari, Democrat of Arizona, thank you so much.
We are following breaking news out of Minnesota where at least six prosecutors at the US Attorney's Office there are resigning. They're protesting how the Trump administration is handling last week's ICE involved shooting. I'm going to get a reaction from Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:32:45]
TAPPER: In our National Lead now, the Justice Department does not believe there is evidence to back a criminal investigation into the actions of the ice agent who last week fatally shot 37-year-old Renee Nicole Good. In Minneapolis, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch said in a statement, "there is currently no basis for a criminal civil rights investigation".
It's a sign that investigators are not examining the evidence or the conduct of the ICE officer. And along those lines, at least six federal prosecutors in Minneapolis have resigned today. The New York Times says the resignations follow pressure from the Trump administration to focus the probe on what happened last week on the widow of Ms. Good. Joining us now is the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey.
Mayor Frey, your reaction to the resignations and the idea, as stated by Deputy Attorney General Blanche, that there's nothing that would even warrant an investigation into the ICE officer. JACOB FREY, MINNEAPOLIS MAYOR: Regarding the resignation, what does
this tell you? It tells you that this is not purely about clamping down on fraud. If all of the people that are investigating the fraud suddenly decide we've had enough, we're not doing this anymore, we're leaving. In Minneapolis and in Minnesota, there's a lot of work that is presently taking place to make sure that fraud doesn't happen. And now when you have the lead investigators that are leaving, that's a major problem.
And it's not because of anything that somebody in Minnesota has done. It's clearly because of the way that the Trump administration is conducting it. And to be clear, the people that are now calling for an investigation of the wife of Renee, that's monstrous. That is gross. Clearly there should be an investigation into the killing.
The ICE agent that ultimately shot and killed Renee Goode should be investigated and we should have a full and fair gathering of the evidence. But to suddenly divert an investigation and to divert attention over to the wife of the victim, I mean, come on, this is un- American.
TAPPER: The FBI reportedly has blocked officials from Minnesota from reviewing evidence about the shooting. Has there any been -- has there been any movement on that front? Are they relenting at all?
[18:35:05]
TAPPER: Our initial understanding when the shooting took place was that, this would be a joint investigation between the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension at the state level and the FBI. And then the FBI suddenly said, you know what, we're not going to grant access to the evidence to any outside entity, including the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. And my question is this, like, if you're not hiding from anything, then what are you hiding from?
The BCA has a long and illustrious history of investigating officer involved shootings. They have investigated cases that have come down both with a charge and a lack thereof. These are experts, they're not like radicals. These largely are law enforcement officers and attorneys.
And so, I think that the BCA should ultimately be handling this case. That's what my position is. And it's deeply concerning that you've got an administration conducting an investigation that apparently is concluded the outcome of the investigation before it's even commenced, when you have people saying from the very get go minutes after that the ICE agent was purely operating in self defense and that the victim is a domestic terrorist. Of course, there are deep concerns about the outcome of the investigation itself.
TAPPER: The Trump administration has announced that they're surging more federal agents to Minneapolis in terms of the ongoing protests. How worried are you that things are going to escalate? And is there anything that you want to say to the people of Minnesota to make sure that nothing does escalate any further than it needs to? FREY: Of course, I'm deeply concerned. For over a month now, the chief
and I have been saying, both privately and publicly, that we had grave concerns about somebody, either a civilian resident police officer or an ICE agent getting seriously injured or killed. And tragically it happened, my concerns haven't decreased. In fact, I'm more and more concerned each and every day because of the conduct that we're seeing on the streets and because of this massive increase in ICE agents that we're seeing on the street.
According to the Trump administration, this is the biggest immigration enforcement action in our country's history. And by the way, they're not going to a place where we have a whole lot of undocumented immigrants. If that were the underlying intention, you'd go to Texas or Florida, or Utah, but they're coming here to Minneapolis. Why? Well, we know the truth.
This is not about safety. This is not about decreasing crime. It's certainly not about fraud, given that all the people investigating the fraud have now left. And it's not even about immigration. This is about going to a blue state with a blue mayor and a blue governor, to be clear, Democratic governor and mayor. And there's a whole lot of terrorization that's happening on our streets right now. And so, people are deeply concerned.
But to be clear, they are protesting peacefully. They are not countering Donald Trump's chaos with our own brand of chaos here. They're doing right by their communities, by and large. And it's just -- it's inspiring to see some of the work that is happening to stand up for each other.
TAPPER: Before you go, just a quick question. There was a fundraiser for the ICE officer in question that was getting some attention and notice from prominent conservative figures. And I clicked on it and it identified you as Jewish. Once it was pointed out, they took that clause down.
They seem to be pointing it out for a reason. What do you think the reason was?
FREY: Well, certainly not relevant to the raising of money, I guess, other than the fact that they think if they put out a dog whistle there, they may raise a few more dollars. I mean, look, it would be just as relevant to tell people what my marathon personal record was or the color of my hair or anything else. It's completely irrelevant. And the bottom line is it anti-Semitic? Of course it is.
TAPPER: Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, thank you so much. Appreciate you being here.
FREY: Thank you for having me.
TAPPER: Coming up, Bill and Hillary Clinton, former president, former first lady and Secretary of State, refusing to testify on Capitol Hill in the House Oversight Committee's Jeffrey Epstein probe. So what happens now?
[18:39:30]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, two of the most prominent names in politics are risking contempt of Congress charges today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Hillary Clinton is supposed to show up tomorrow. We'll see what happens there. But with respect to the former president, he did not show up today. We will move next week in the House Oversight Committee markup to hold former President Clinton in contempt of Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That's right. Former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton are refusing to testify on Capitol Hill in the House Oversight Committee's Jeffrey Epstein probe. Instead, they wrote to Republican Chairman James Comer of the Oversight Committee, "You will say it is not our decision to make but we have made it, now you have to make yours."
My panel joins us now, former Governor of Arkansas, Asa Hutchinson. Let me start with you because not only are you from Arkansas and you've known the Clintons for quite some time, you were -- I'm old enough to remember when you were a House impeachment manager in 1999 during President Clinton's impeachment trial. What's your, and just for the record, you guys won the trial just in the you did. The senators didn't win, the Republican senators.
ASA HUTCHINSON, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: I like that.
TAPPER: What is your reaction to their -- the Clinton's decision to refuse to testify?
HUTCHINSON: Well, my reaction is if I was his lawyer, I would advise him not to testify.
TAPPER: Really?
HUTCHINSON There's too much at risk. Now, we all want transparency on the Epstein files. That's what Congress should be having oversight hearings on, why have those been released. But for the President to go in there, it would be unprecedented. It would be a show circus that the American public would see and think about it at risk.
[18:45:06]
If there's a misstatement, that's going to be referred to the Department of Justice. You think this administration is not going to prosecute him if there's a misstatement.
So, there's too much at risk, and the courts are not going to enforce a subpoena. The courts are going to say a former president, which has never happened before in our country being compelled to testify before Congress. They've done it voluntarily, but never compelled to do it.
TAPPER: David, what do you make of the argument there from the governor that the House Oversight Committee ought implicitly made the House Oversight Committee could also be investigating why the Justice Department is not complying with the law in terms of releasing all the Epstein documents.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, I know there's this blood lust for the Clintons still remains, right? And --
TAPPER: Apparently.
URBAN: And the governor and I were pointing out the reason that he ended up, you know, my former boss is famous, not guilty under Scottish law, not proven.
TAPPER: Arlen Specter, a little, a little for anybody playing David Urban bingo.
URBAN: It's a throwback.
TAPPER: It's an Arlen Specter reference.
URBAN: But listen, I agree with the governor. There's this hue and cry across America to have these Epstein files completely kind of dumped, right? Whether it's the Trump base, the Democratic left, the QAnon conspiracy, there's -- everybody wants to see this get resolved. And so, if you're the House, I'd keep digging. I'd keep asking DOJ, why are we getting complete pages redacted? Why don't we have everything that we can about these files out today?
This is -- this is one thing I think everybody on the panel is going to agree about.
TAPPER: Yeah.
URBAN: I mean, look --
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.
TAPPER: Release the files.
URBAN: Amazing, right? Release the files.
TAPPER: Release the files, and whoever's name is in there, let them explain it then.
HINOJOSA: Absolutely.
TAPPER: Xochitl, I will just say, just before Christmas, President Trump -- I'm sorry. President Clinton's spokesman put out a statement that called on the Justice Department to release any documents that tied Clinton to Epstein. They basically seem to be saying, we have nothing to hide.
Does that not square with this refusal to testify? HINOJOSA: Well, you saw that the Justice Department, it happened to be
the first documents they released were of photos of President Clinton. I don't think --
TAPPER: In a hot tub.
HINOJOSA: In a hot tub. That is not a surprise. And yet they've only released 1 percent. And that's where Congress's focus should be.
I will say that as they subpoenaed -- the committee subpoenaed eight people. And of the eight people, seven have been excused from giving testimony. And there are former attorneys general, including Garland and Holder, who both said that they didn't know anything more about the investigation. They didn't have anything to offer.
President Clinton and Secretary Clinton said the exact same thing. But because we're living in a very polarized partisan world and there's an obsession with the Clintons that goes back decades.
URBAN: Well, there are those pictures, too.
HINOJOSA: There are but --
TAPPER: Well, they have, right?
URBAN: They're salacious. They're salacious.
TAPPER: For the -- I should just say, before the arrest of Jeffrey Epstein in 2005, he had a lot of friends, including Bill Clinton and including Donald Trump.
HINOJOSA: Yes, President Trump. And also, if the -- it would be unprecedented for a sitting president to give testimony, but they could compel the president. They could ask the president if he wanted to give voluntary testimony for the committee, but they haven't done that. And they're trying to distract from President Trump.
TAPPER: So the Clintons, in their letter, just to read part of it, says if the government didn't do all it could to investigate and prosecute these crimes, for whatever reason, that should be the focus of your work. Theres no evidence that you're doing so. There's no plausible explanation for what you're doing other than partisan politics, which it sounds like everybody here agrees.
URBAN: And, Jake, you know, I defer to -- the governor's a career prosecutor, but we haven't heard, at least publicly. And to my best of my knowledge from the prosecutors that cut this -- the non-prosecution agreement with Epstein, that kind of let him walk and let him go. Like, if you really want to understand the nub of this, why was Epstein let -- what why was he let go? Why don't we hear from those? Why don't we hear from Acosta and those career prosecutors?
TAPPER: Acosta did a behind the scenes.
URBAN: But the career prosecutors put the memos together. The people who did all that stuff, why don't we hear from them? HUTCHINSON: The Trump doctrine could be invoked here. Would Donald
Trump go testify before Congress? Of course he would not. I think Clinton has taken the same position as a former president.
It is a little bit different because this is private conduct, private relationship, not dealing with being president. So, it's a little bit new territory, but I don't think the courts would ever enforce such a subpoena.
TAPPER: And we all agree. It sounds like that all of the Epstein documents with the with the exception of the redaction of the names and identifying characteristics of the survivors or victims, they should all be released as soon as possible.
URBAN: Absolutely. People -- listen, the president ran on this. The Trump base feels like for a long time that rich and powerful get protected.
TAPPER: But Marjorie Taylor Greene, congresswoman, former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene said in an interview in "The New York Times" that Trump called her and said, my friends will be hurt if these names. That's what she claims.
URBAN: Yeah, I can't speak to that, but I just know that the Trump base there a great deal of many Americans feel that for many, many years that there's been this two-tiered system of justice that the rich and powerful get protected. And this is just a further example of that.
TAPPER: But I don't think that's just a feeling among Trump people. I think it's true. Right? There is a two-tier system of justice.
HINOJOSA: There is a two-tier system of justice.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Or it appears by this -- by this case.
HINOJOSA: -- by -- well, and also by this administration and the Supreme Court also ruled that you can't go after a sitting president as well.
[18:50:00]
And so, I think that it is -- it is very clear that the Justice Department is trying to hide something. And that, I think, is why this has become so newsy, is that the Justice Department, they -- the fact that they've only released 1 percent of the files when they were supposed to release them all, just a few, you know, about a month ago and Congress hasn't done anything. There's something.
URBAN: Quickly, the Biden administration released nothing. So let's -- let's not throw stones.
HINOJOSA: Yes, exactly. But the Biden administration also, I mean, we don't release documents like that. TAPPER: But last word, this is a law that Donald Trump signed into law
and his own administration is not abiding by it.
URBAN: It needs to be focused upon. Congress needs to push it. Everybody agrees. It needs to be released. Why is the Department of Justice not moving more quickly? And the presumption is that there is something there that would be embarrassing the administration.
Obviously, Trump says we ought to have transparency. Clinton says we ought to have transparency. Get that released, and Congress needs to put the pressure on.
TAPPER: I love it when a panel all agrees.
Thanks, everyone. Really appreciate it.
Could we finally find out what is behind Havana syndrome? Those mysterious symptoms that impacted some U.S. spies and diplomats abroad? That's next
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:21]
TAPPER: In our world lead, some new and exclusive reporting from CNN's national security team reveals that the Pentagon has spent more than a year studying a mysterious device that might be linked to Havana syndrome, a series of unexplained neurological symptoms ranging from ringing ears and dizziness to career-ending cognitive issues. Symptoms first reported in 2016 by U.S. service members and diplomats who had been previously stationed in Cuba. That's why it's called Havana syndrome.
The Pentagon purchased this device for millions of dollars through an undercover operation during the last days of the Biden administration.
Joining us now is the editor for "The Insider", Michael Weiss.
And, Michael, you've been reporting on Havana syndrome for quite a bit now. What's your reaction to this new reporting?
MICHAEL WEISS, EDITOR, THE INSIDER: Well, first of all, it's a fantastic piece by CNN, and it sort of conforms to a lot of what we at the insider had alleged two years ago in a collaboration with "60 Minutes". We found evidence suggesting that a unit of Russian military intelligence, the GRU, known as Unit 29155, everybody in the world knows who they are because these are the guys responsible for poisoning Sergei and Yulia Skripal, in Salisbury. They attempted a coup in Montenegro.
All that they do, Jake, is kinetic operations, right? They kill people and they blow things up. We found evidence that this unit had not only worked on research, scientific research into directed energy weapons. We have the documents from their inboxes to prove it.
But we were able to locate two of their operatives in two places, two different cities at two different time periods. Tbilisi, Georgia and Frankfurt, Germany. Actually, going back to 2014. So this predates Havana, Cuba in 2016, where two victims whose medical records we also examined allege that they succumbed to these symptoms.
And, you know, as you mentioned, there are neurological symptoms, traumatic brain injuries and in some cases, really physically debilitating ailments. One guy we know is legally blind. He has to walk around with a weighted vest for the rest of his life. I mean, it renders you dysfunctional at its worst.
TAPPER: Yeah, it's horrible.
WEISS: And these two victims identified two of these GRU operatives and said these people were skulking around outside of our area. And one case was a residence in Tbilisi, Georgia, in a suburban community. And the other case, it was Frankfurt, the consulate in Frankfurt, Germany, and you know, credible actors. One worked for DOJ and the other worked for U.S. intelligence agency.
TAPPER: So --
WEISS: So, one of the main bulwarks that we've been trying to determine here is could a device like this exist, and if so, could it be man portable? And CNN reports that not only has the Pentagon been tinkering with this thing for a year, but it can fit inside of a backpack. And, oh, by the way, it has Russian components, surprise.
TAPPER: Well, that's the thing. Although the device is not entirely made up of Russian components, it does have Russian components.
WEISS: Right.
TAPPER: Two years ago, you published your investigation linking Havana syndrome to the use of energy weapons and a Russian military intelligence unit. At the time, now, Vice President J.D. Vance, then Senator J.D. Vance responded, quote, "feels like a lot of journalists have lost their minds," unquote.
He went on to say something even weirder. Now, your investigation led the U.S. senators urging the Biden administration, bipartisan group of U.S. senators urging the Biden administration to reinvestigate the root cause of Havana syndrome.
We should note, then senator, now Secretary of State Marco Rubio's signature is on there. I assume that J.D. Vance has called you and apologized?
WEISS: You'll be shocked to discover he has not. No. And it was a very kind of churlish and puerile comment from J.D. Vance. I kind of got the impression he didn't bother to read our investigation.
You know, one of the results of that investigation, we were kind of girding our loins for what the pushback from the intelligence community was going to be. And what we discovered is nobody could knock down what we did, what we uncovered. Right? Nobody could say this is just patently false. It was an attempt to kind of deflect and say, well, you know, we still
don't have any credible evidence, et cetera. But then some interesting things happen. The first was the ICA, the intelligence community assessment came out and two agencies, one of them is said to be the NSA. The other is kind of in dispute. They altered their assessment and they said that there's now a 5050 chance that such a device could exist.
One agency went on to say it may have been used against Americans abroad. The other agency cast some doubt on that. But that was a -- that was a big move of the needle in terms of evidentiary support for AHI.
And then another thing happened, which is the House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence, which oversees the intelligence community, came out with a report last year saying that its increasingly likely that some cases of AHI are caused by a foreign adversary.
TAPPER: Fascinating stuff.
WEISS: So, again, you're seeing fall into place here. Yeah.
TAPPER: Michael Weiss, great reporting. Thank you so much for joining us. Good to have you back.
You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Bluesky and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and on Instagram @TheLeadCNN.
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"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now. Take it away, Erin.
I will see you tomorrow.
