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The Lead with Jake Tapper
CNN Poll: 56 Percent Call Use Of Force In M.N. ICE Shooting "Inappropriate"; Epstein Survivors Send Letter To Inspector General Demanding Oversight; As Trump Eyes Venezuela's Oil, U.S. Companies Remain Wary; Grok Under Fire For Sexualizing Women And Children's Images. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired January 14, 2026 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right, thanks to my panel and all of you at home for watching. Jake Tapper standing by for "The Lead." Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. We'll look for more tomorrow in "The Arena."
HUNT: Have a great show.
[17:00:44]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News. JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We start
with breaking news on several fronts. Moments ago at the White House, President Trump vaguely addressed anti-government protests in Iran. He said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've been told that the killing in Iran is stopping and it's stopped -- stopping and there's no plan for executions or an execution or executions. So I've been told that a good authority. We'll find out about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The comment was vague enough for us to wonder if he was just talking about executions set to happen in Iran today stopping. One of those planned executions included that of 26-year-old Iranian protester Erfan Soltani. His family has been in touch with the U.S. State Department. President Trump did not clarify if the Iranian regime has vowed or is or has stopped killing protesters. If that is what he meant then the White House did not respond to our questions about that.
There are no public reports indicating that the killings have stopped as the president said. The U.S. based human rights activist's news agency now says some 2,400 protesters have been killed since demonstrations in Iran started last month.
Also on the breaking news front, the president insisting the U.S. needs to acquire Greenland and anything less is unacceptable. Top officials from both Greenland and Denmark walked away from a meeting today here in D.C. with Trump administration officials saying there is a quote, "fundamental disagreement over Greenland's future." We're going to get to both of those stories.
We're also following an emergency in space, an unknown health issue apparently so dire. Crews are racing a sick astronaut back to earth. They're set to undock from the International Space Station in just minutes.
Much more on all of that, but first to our national lead where a majority of Americans are revealing they do not approve of the way the Trump administration and ICE are currently operating. A brand new CNN poll shows that 56 percent of Americans think that ICE agent's use of force that killed Renee Nicole Good one week ago in Minneapolis, 56 percent say it was inappropriate. 26 percent say appropriate.
Other Americans are concerned by some images of ICE tactics that we've seen in news media and social media recently. Here's a video from Saturday, just a few days after the fatal shooting in Minneapolis. We see a federal immigration agent in Minneapolis shoving a protester into oncoming traffic after appearing to block the vehicle. On Monday, an agent was seen deploying pepper spray directly into the face of a protester.
Today, President Trump's border czar Tom Homan was asked by a reporter about the seemingly escalating tactics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP BORDER POLICY ADVISER: Minneapolis, there's sanctuary city. You know, if they'd let us in their damn jail and stop being sanctuary city, we could arrest the bad guy in the safety and security of a jail. But because they normally release them, now we got to go into the community and find them, then they're mad we're in the community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The family of Renee Good today announced that a law firm is going to conduct a civil investigation into her death. This just one day after the Department of Justice said there is nothing that they've seen that warrants any sort of investigation into what happened with that ICE officer and that 37-year-old woman. CNN's Josh Campbell has been taking a closer look at what we know about the tactics being used by federal agents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no. (BLEEP). Oh God. (BLEEP) What's wrong with you? Are you trying to (BLEEP) (inaudible)?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What you just saw was a federal immigration agent pushing an unidentified protester into oncoming traffic after appearing to block their vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just fired off a tear gas canister.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. Anyone --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): And here, another violent clash between Border Patrol agents and anti-ICE protester who appeared to swat an agent's hand away while recording an immigration enforcement operation. These moves coming on the heels of an explosive week for ICE, their aggressive tactics only seem to be escalating.
Last week, tensions between ICE and protesters erupted when a woman in Minneapolis was shot and killed by an ICE agent. DHS officials claim the shooting was self-defense. Despite the nationwide scrutiny, ICE doesn't appear to be slowing down, raising questions by some police use of force experts whether the tactics of agents in handling both suspects and activists are inflaming an already volatile situation.
[17:05:19]
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: If they conduct violent activities against law enforcement, if they impede our operations, that's a crime and we will hold them accountable to those consequences.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): Social media has been flooded with an onslaught of videos showcasing the rising tensions between ICE and protesters in Minneapolis. The killing of Renee Good wasn't the start of these aggressive tactics, it was more of a tipping point. In August of 2025, Oregon state officials released a video of two federal officers slamming a protester to the ground outside an ICE facility. DHS says it was a targeted arrest of a dangerous rioter who had previously assaulted law enforcement. In September, officers shot pepper balls from the rooftop of an ICE facility down at a protest in Illinois, hitting a pastor.
DHS released a statement saying that the agitators ignored verbal warnings and were impeding operations by blocking an ICE vehicle from leaving the facility, a claim the pastor has denied. About a month later, an officer repeatedly strikes a person in the head during an arrest. DHS said a hostile crowd surrounded agents, verbally abusing them and spitting on them. Pepper spray was deployed to deter the agitator and disperse the crowd. It is a crime to interfere with the actions of immigration agents and efforts to block their work have been documented on video.
But police experts say that when possible, de-escalation is always preferred.
CHUCK WEXLER, EXECUTIVE RESEARCH FORUM: Making an arrest in a large crowd can sometimes be problematic as opposed to identifying that person and maybe making arrest later on when you're not enraging the rest of the crowd. When emotions are high, rational thinking is low. And so sometimes you have to really slow things down. Take a step back, communicate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: And our thanks to Josh Campbell for that report. Let's bring in CNN's Jamie Gangel and CNN Political Director David Chalian.
David, let's take a closer look at the CNN poll out today. We know 56 percent of Americans in this poll disapprove of the use of force in the Minneapolis ICE shooting one week ago today. What do the American people in this poll think about ICE enforcement in U.S. cities overall? Do they think it's making us safer?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: So overall a slim majority, 51 percent say it's making us less safe. But look at it broken out by party, I think this is so telling in our poll, Jake, among Democratic and Democratic leaning independents. You see, of course, 82 percent say ICE enforcement making cities less safe, right? Nearly unified opposition to ICE enforcement here. But look at that Republican side, 67 -- two thirds of Republicans and Republican aligned voters say actually ICE enforcement is making the city safer.
But 17 percent say it's making it less safe, far less unified, the Republicans are, in support of ICE enforcement. And the fact that 17 percent of Republicans and Republican aligned independents are saying it makes the cities less safe, that to me shows a potential political problem here for Donald Trump and his party. He's bleeding some support from his side of the aisle, which should be one of his most central issues.
TAPPER: Yes, that's almost one in five on an issue that a lot of them voted for him on.
Jamie, what are you hearing from law enforcement and former Department of Homeland Security officials about the way that the Trump administration is handling the shooting?
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: They are appalled by what they're saying. They say this is not the way law enforcement works effectively. And they really just call it for what we're seeing on the screen, that it is violent, that it is chaotic. They are worried about how agents are being screened, how they're being trained. But most of all, they say that since the shooting, and look, there was violence before, they feel ICE agents are emboldened, that they -- that they've doubled down.
And one former DHS officials said to me, we are seeing the government normalizing violent and now deadly tactics.
TAPPER: David, what do Americans think about Trump's overall handling of the issue of immigration? After all, for example, like, he can take great solace in the fact that, like, the border is basically shut down, right? CHALIAN: Exactly. Huge victory and like, promise delivered, right --
TAPPER: Yes.
CHALIAN: -- for Donald Trump. And yet what we see in the numbers is he has traded a political strength and made it into a political vulnerability for him, largely because immigration now is being seen through this lens of what you're seeing on your screens of ICE enforcement. So he's at 42 percent approval now on immigration as issue, 58 percent disapproval. But, Jake, look at the trend go back to March, he was in positive territory less than a year ago. Fifty-one percent, slim majority, approved of Donald Trump on immigration.
[17:10:02]
This was a political strength over the last year, again, because the large focus of immigration has been this ICE enforcement that is not sitting well with the broad swathe of the American public.
TAPPER: And Jamie, we're wondering, like, who is that 17 percent of Republicans and Republican leaning independents, Joe Rogan, the podcast -- podcaster, might be one of them. He seemed to break with the administration over the shooting. Here's part of what he just said the other day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": But you don't want militarized people in the streets just roaming around snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be U.S. citizens that just don't have their papers on them. Are we really going to be the Gestapo? Where's your papers? Is that what we've come to?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I mean, just to take a step back, that's Joe Rogan saying that, right? I mean, that's not like an MS now host. That's Joe Rogan.
GANGEL: When you lose Joe Rogan, when you see these poll numbers, when Joe Rogan uses the word gestapo, you would think the White House might get the message. But clearly we have seen, you know, in the last couple of days since that shooting that they've sent a message to the ICE agents. Keep doing what you're doing.
TAPPER: Yes. Jamie Gangel, David Chalian, thanks so much.
We're going to talk much more about Trump's immigration crackdown and that new CNN polling coming up. Plus, President Trump's response to questions about the protests in Iran. Questions from CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins. But first, the major request today from a group of Epstein survivors. They're criticizing how the Justice Department has released its files or failed to release its files on the dead pedophile and his network so far, they call it alarming.
And one of those survivors is going to join us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:15:43]
TAPPER: In our law and justice lead, today, it has been nearly one month since the U.S. Justice Department was legally required by law to release all of its files related to the Jeffrey Epstein case. That deadline has now long passed and the Justice Department is currently in violation of that law. Today, survivors of the saga are calling the process so far deeply troubling. Many signed on to a letter to the Justice Department's inspector general calling for an investigation saying, quote, "The manner in which these materials were released," referring to the few materials that have been released, "reflects serious failures in redaction practices, survivor protection and oversight," unquote.
There are millions of documents. I think roughly 1 percent or 2 percent have been released. Let's talk about all this with Liz Stein. She's an Epstein survivor who signed on to this letter.
Liz, good to see you. So, the Justice Department has released some of its files. They started releasing them on December 19. Most of them have not been released. How are you doing as all this unfolds? And you're obviously not happy about how they are doing the job of releasing the documents and also not releasing the documents in violation of law.
LIZ STEIN, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Yes, thanks for asking, Jake. I think that it's really important for people to understand that we have only seen 1 percent of these documents so far. And so our government is grossly violating the Epstein Files Transparency Act. And I think that the way that the rollout has happened has been really traumatized -- re-traumatizing to us as survivors. It has not been held with any care as far as what the redactions look like.
We are seeing survivors' personal information being released when these documents are released, and we are suspecting that names of perpetrators are being redacted. It's also really concerning to us that the government is not handling these redactions in a proper way from a technical standpoint, where someone from the public can take these documents and put them into a program and essentially see the documents unredacted.
This is really concerning to us for a lot of reasons. We are public citizens. We don't have people protecting us. And a lot of this information we gave to people on the assumption that it wouldn't be released to the public. And we don't have anyone protecting us as this information is coming out.
TAPPER: You also write --
STEIN: I think that another --
TAPPER: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
STEIN: Oh, no, I was just going to say another point to remember when this information is coming out is that it's being done in such a haphazard way. My therapist likes to say that it's sifting through wreckage because that's exactly what it is. It's being released without any context. There's no index as to what we're looking at. And so it's just this.
Even this 1 percent that's been released is this overwhelming document drum -- dump that we really just -- we aren't -- we don't have the context around it. And I feel like that was done in an intentional way to confuse and exhaust the American public, people that are looking for transparency.
TAPPER: You also write in a letter, quote, "Even the appearance that redactions were applied to protect certain individuals rather than survivors erodes public trust." What specifically are you referring to there? Is there anybody specifically, you think that is being protected or you just think that there's so many redactions? It's obvious that they're protecting perpetrators or potential perpetrators.
STEIN: I think that it's a little bit of both, right? As survivors, we have been criticized. Why aren't you talking? Why aren't you releasing names? And I don't think that people understand the amount of danger that could put us in.
And also the fact that we've given names to our lawyers, we've given names to the FBI when we have spoken to them. And so we know what happened, we know what we're not seeing in these files, and we know when we're seeing things blacked out in a larger context that they could potentially be people who perpetrated these crimes against us. And so while I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, I do know that this is happening, you know, amongst our group of survivors.
[17:20:18]
TAPPER: In a recent internal e-mail, Justice Department leadership instructed their review team to read 1,000 pages a day. If they speed up the process, is that a good thing or does it just leave more room for error?
STEIN: That's a real concern. I cannot imagine processing 1000 pages of these documents every day and having to be fastidious in really making intentional and thoughtful redactions to protect survivors. I fear that this person push to increase productivity is going to only lead to more mishaps, more identification of people who shouldn't be identified. At the same time, it's so vitally important that we get this done and get this done in a way that is really upholding the integrity of survivors and really paying attention to what this is.
I feel like this is a drum that I beat constantly. We are -- our attention is being focused on things that it shouldn't be focused on this case.
TAPPER: Yes.
STEIN: This is not a political issue. This is not about the men industry and banking, in finance, in government, this is about a crime. And the crime is sex trafficking. And sex trafficking is a crime with defined legal elements. And we're getting away from what we're looking at when we're looking at the Epstein case. And it's, you know, by our own government's admission, it's a crime that has over 1,000 victims.
So what is the problem? What is the issue with seeking justice for us as victims? And one other thing that I like to bring up also, this would not be the gigantic task that it now is if our government started listening to survivors when we started reporting, Maria Farmer reported Epstein in 1996 --
TAPPER: Yes.
STEIN: -- and one piece of validation that we saw in the document dump that's happened so far was notes from Maria's initial report.
TAPPER: Yes.
STEIN: And I keep thinking of how many times we could have stopped this. I think about Epstein's sweetheart deal in Florida when there was a 53 page federal indictment just waiting and he got out of facing any real repercussions that time. And I just think over and over and over again how our government has failed us and how it would not be this gargantuan task if they had just listened to survivors.
TAPPER: Absolutely. Liz Stein, thank you so much. Appreciate your courage. Appreciate you being here today.
Coming up, the Trump administration appears to be charging ahead with plans to tap into Venezuela's wealth of oil. Is that a smart move? Is it going to happen the way they want? My next guest would know. He's at the center of America's oil industry.
He's going to join me here in studio next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:27:29]
TAPPER: In our money lead today, President Trump today confirmed that he spoke with Venezuela's acting president, Delcy Rodriguez the former vice president in the Maduro regime. This is the first time Trump says they've talked since the U.S. captured Nicolas Maduro back on January 3rd. President Trump described the conversation positively, saying, quote, "we're getting along very well with Venezuela." President Trump maintains that the U.S. will wield more control over Venezuela's energy industry by investing in both the nation's oil infrastructure and potentially tapping into its crude. Venezuela's crude accounts for nearly 20 percent of the world's reserves.
Let's bring in a voice who knows a lot about this industry. Mike Sommers, he heads the U.S. oil industry's top lobbying group, it's called the American Petroleum Institute or API. Thanks so much for being here.
MIKE SOMMERS, CEO, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE: Thank you, Jake. TAPPER: So you have said API would oppose any efforts by the White House to take a stake from the oil companies who decide to invest in Venezuela. Explain why.
SOMMERS: Well, one of the great advantages of the American oil and gas industry is that we've been independent from the federal government since our founding over 150 years ago. We're not for a national oil company in the United States. It's one of the reasons why we've led the world in production of oil and natural gas.
TAPPER: Exxon's CEO, I presume that Exxon is part of the API. Yes?
SOMMERS: Yes.
TAPPER: Exxon CEO warned about the risks of investing in Venezuela on Friday. President Trump did not seem particularly happy. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN WOODS, CEO, EXXON: If we look at the legal and commercial constructs and frameworks in place today in Venezuela, today it's uninvestable.
TRUMP: No, I didn't like Exxon's response. You know, we have so many that want it. I'd probably be inclined to keep Exxon out. I didn't like their response. They're playing too cute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Playing too cute. What kind of pressure is the industry under from the Trump administration to fall in line and do what the president tells you to do?
SOMMERS: Well, I think what you've heard from every CEO at the roundtable on Friday was that we need certain prerequisites in place before we start investing in Venezuela. One of those is security for an American workforce that goes down. The area that is currently -- that we would currently be operating in is filled with militia groups. We need to make sure that our workforce is first and foremost secure. Second of all, we need the rule of law.
Right now the hydrocarbon law down there that governs oil extraction is a complete mess. It is -- was written by socialists, written by Hugo Chavez. We need changes in law.
[17:30:00]
So, we need policy and we need security. Those two things are clear. I'm confident, though, that with the right leadership down in Venezuela, we can get those two things right and there could be investment in Venezuela.
TAPPER: When you say you need security for your workers, which is certainly understandable, we've seen and in fact we had an oil executive who had been kidnapped for several years on the show the other day, one of the Chevron individuals. Are you talking about a U.S. military presence or are you talking about a stable Venezuelan government with a military that can be used to keep people in Venezuela safe?
SOMMERS: Well, let me be clear. We are not asking for a U.S. military presence down there. What we're asking for is a government that can actually support development of this resource. We have to remember that this is a tremendous resource. Venezuela at one point was producing 3.7 million barrels of oil every single day.
They're now producing fewer than a million barrels. That's because this resource has been completely deteriorated. The equipment is rust barren. We need to make sure that we can build that resource up again. That's going to take billions of dollars and years to get that resource back up again. There's another part of the country, the Maracaibo Lake, where Chevron is operating, where they could actually get some incremental barrels on the market pretty quickly. But the Orinoco Belt, where most of this resource is, it's going to take a while to get that resource back to where it needs to be.
TAPPER: So, I mean, I just said that Venezuela has 20 percent of the world's oil reserves. Is that true?
SOMMERS: Well, the truth of the matter is, is that it's unlikely that it's 20 percent of the world's oil reserves. You self-report what your reserves are, and they haven't reported in a decade. So we don't actually know what the resource looks like down there. That's one of the reasons why the CEO of ExxonMobil, Darren Woods, says, we want to go down there and assess what the resource looks like.
The industry isn't going to go in there without actually knowing what the resource base looks like, what the technology looks like. It's going to take some time to figure out what's actually the situation on the ground in Venezuela.
TAPPER: Last question. I mean, the Maduro regime is still running the country. Maduro and his wife are not, but four of the other, four of the six people that were in that indictment are still there in power. Delcy Rodriguez is, you know, she's not Indira Gandhi, right? I mean, can you do business under the Maduro regime minus Maduro?
SOMMERS: If we have the assurances from the Trump administration that our workforce is going to be safe, number one, and two, that they're going to change policies so that it actually makes sense to invest in this resource, we absolutely can work down there.
TAPPER: All right. Mike Sommers, thanks so much.
Some breaking news from outer space, a four-person team has now undocked from the International Space Station. This is unprecedented. It's an emergency to rush an ill astronaut back to Earth. We're going to be watching this one. We have much more coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:36:57] TAPPER: In our Tech Lead, California's Attorney General says that he is investigating Elon Musk's ex-A.I. company over its chatbot, Grok's, ability to digitally undress real people, including children. Musk has defended Grok's creation of these non-consensual, nearly nude, deepfake images, calling efforts to take action against Grok doing this, censorship.
Let's discuss this with the host of the On & Pivot podcast, CNN contributor Kara Swisher. Kara, California's joining other places in taking this action against Grok. We should note that in recent days, according to researchers and CNN's own observations, Grok appears to have been modified. And one group that tracks this reports that the creation of these bikini-like images has decreased. What does that suggest to you? And what do you think needs to happen to actually address this issue, especially when it comes to children?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Pull them off the app stores until they fix it completely. I mean, I don't know why we're doing this. I thought -- first, there's a lot of things we disagree about, but child sexual pornography is not one of them. It is one most people agree should not be on these platforms. And there's very strict rules in the app stores, whether it's Apple or Google, and they should pull them down. They haven't said a word about it.
They've pulled down things for much less, actually. And so they should investigate if it's still happening there and ex-A.I. isn't doing enough. They should pull them down until they fix them and then restore their ability to do it. But, you know, Elon's been saying it's a censorship or free speech issue. It's simply not. These are laws that are in place all across the world. And all the regulators are reacting quite correctly, which is to remove it or ban it or whatever it takes to get them to change it.
TAPPER: One of the victims of this, adult victims of these sexually explicit deepfake images, is a woman named Ashley St. Clair. She's a conservative influencer. She's the mother of one of Elon Musk's children. Take a listen to what she said about seeing one of these images of herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY ST. CLAIR, MOTHER OF ONE OF ELON MUSK'S CHILDREN: The worst for me was seeing myself undressed, bent over, and then my toddler's backpack in the background, because I had to then see that and see myself violated in that way in such horrific images and then put that same backpack on my son the next day because it's the one he wears every day to school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now, she went on to say, Ashley St. Clair, that after filing a complaint with xAI, only some of those images were removed.
SWISHER: Yes, that's the issue, is once it proliferates. And they tried to do things like saying only paying customers would be able to do this, which it seems kind of not a great solution to that. Obviously, most of these are generated by people who don't pay, but that doesn't really matter. Nobody should be able to make these.
We had a problem with revenge porn on the Internet forever, you know, and in life, right? But this creates these generated images that aren't real. And then to let people be able to do things non- consensually with women and then with children, it's why people are reacting so strongly. And, of course, as usual, Elon's doubling down and trying to blame everything on First Amendment when, in fact, you know, he does things at will when he feels like it, he takes things down. And so it's kind of, you know, every accusation is a confession with these folks in a lot of ways.
[17:40:17]
TAPPER: And this is all happening as the U.S. government, as the Trump administration continues to further its ties with Musk and with Grok. The Secretary of Defense, Hegseth, announced the integration of Grok into military networks this week.
SWISHER: Yes.
TAPPER: So what does that say about the Trump administration's take on all this?
SWISHER: As I said before, it's a coin-operated administration. I mean, obviously, he's backing their good graces, and so they're going to do deals with him. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but they should clean it up, you know, just like any vendor. You don't want a vendor that has this problem worldwide, and it's spinning out of control because they're not doing anything about it or not enough or whining about it. At some -- in one interview, he said he didn't know, or one tweet, he didn't know about it.
You know, that's a very Trump thing to do. I never heard of that person. It's happening on his platform, and so therefore he's responsible for it. And in this case, most authorities are pretty strict around issues around children and sexualization of children, as they should be. And it's just another thing that we have to put up with that we agreed on, and everybody agrees on this issue. And it should be very strict.
And including the platform, the platforms like Apple and Google should also be looking into this and doing something about it or at least discussing the problem. And if there's no problem, tell us why there's no problem. It's just very typical of tech running over everybody else and making us think we don't see what we see.
TAPPER: Kara Swisher, always great to have you on. Thank you so much.
SWISHER: Thanks, Jake.
TAPPER: Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, says his fellow Democrats are going to win back control of the Senate come this November. That seems a tall order, but we're going to tell you the states that he says he's going to win, his party's going to win to achieve that. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:46:18]
TAPPER: We're back with the Politics Lead, and let's bring back that election music if we can. Yes, the CNN jam, the election jam. Yes, there it is.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let's go to the map.
TAPPER: We're ready to talk. John King is not here yet at the map, but we are going to talk maps. Democratic Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is gaming out a plan on a map to recapture four seats that the Democrats need to win back control in the U.S. Senate. He wants to protect Georgia's Jon Ossoff, prevent the open seat in Michigan from flipping, and he told Axios, "North Carolina, Maine, Ohio, and Alaska. Those four were going to win," he said optimistically. Three of those states we should know Trump won three times.
My panel is here to talk through this. So let's just go through. Let's start with North Carolina. It's always the elusive North Carolina for you Democrats. You try to get it. You got it with Obama once in an electoral, and you -- there have been Democratic senators from North Carolina. Not a while. Thom Tillis is retiring. Former Democratic Governor Roy Cooper, Schumer recruited him.
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
TAPPER: He has five challengers on the ballot, but he's the most high- profile name on the Democratic side. On the Republican side, Michael Whatley, the former RNC chair, he's running with Trump's endorsement. He faces six challengers, slightly tougher race, particularly against businessman Don Brown and the former state superintendent candidate Michelle Morrow.
David, let me start with you. In all likelihood, we're going to see a Whatley-Cooper race, right? How do you think it's going to play out?
URBAN: Full disclosure, I'm a double max to Michael Whatley, a good friend. In 2016, he ran the Trump campaign in North Carolina. I ran the Trump campaign in Pennsylvania. We've been friends since then. I think Michael Whatley wins the primary easily, and I think Michael Whatley will win. He's kind of the moderate Republican that will do well in North Carolina and the Charlotte and Raleigh areas. So I think that you're -- Jake, you talk about how it's very difficult for Democrats to win. I think he'll beat the former governor.
TAPPER: And, Kate, we should say the Roy Cooper's campaign, we should note he's former governor, two-term governor. As two-term governors go, pretty popular in the state. They announced they raised $9.5 million in the last quarter of 2025. Politico reports Whatley came in $5.1 million. Can the Democrats keep up that momentum when it comes to money, which obviously is important when it comes to advertising?
BEDINGFIELD: Yes, I think they can. I think Cooper is obviously a terrific candidate for this seat. He's somebody who knows how to win statewide in North Carolina. He's well-liked in North Carolina. I mean, look, at the end of the day, recruitment -- candidate recruitment is a huge piece of determining how successful you're going to be in state.
TAPPER: That's probably Schumer's biggest achievement.
BEDINGFIELD: Absolutely. And, look, I worked at the DCCC in 2006 when we won 30 seats, took back the House, and a huge piece of that was the result of a really strong recruitment effort and recruiting candidates who matched the districts or, in this case, matched their states. So I think you're looking at an approval rating for Donald Trump that is low and potentially sinking. You're also looking at, in a midterm year, you're looking at an electorate that tends to be more Democratic.
I mean, the way demographics have kind of flipped and party alignment, frankly, has flipped in this country. High-information voters tend to vote Democratic, tend to come out in midterm years. So there's a lot of wind at the Democrats' backs.
TAPPER: OK, so I've got three more states in like --
URBAN: Keep feeling good. Keep going. She's feeling good.
TAPPER: I've got three more states in three more minutes, so I'm just going to --
URBAN: Speed round.
TAPPER: So speed round. So Susan Collins in Maine. OK.
URBAN: Winner.
TAPPER: I know you think that the Democrats are going to lose and Republicans are going to win and vice versa, so let's just get that out of the way. It's a crowded field to take on Susan Collins. Schumer's chosen candidate is the governor, Janet Mills. She is facing a progressive challenger, Graham Platner. He did seem to lose some steam when that scandal emerged about the Nazi skull that he's since covered up. But I have heard anecdotally that his town halls do attract a lot of people.
[17:50:07]
URBAN: He's a charismatic guy.
TAPPER: Do you think -- who do you think actually is the tougher challenge for Collins?
URBAN: He's a tougher challenge.
TAPPER: You think so?
URBAN: He's much more charismatic.
BEDINGFIELD: That's interesting. URBAN: He's a fisherman. He's a gritty guy. He's a very interesting character, right? And so the governor's older. Listen, I think Susan Collins is an institution in Maine. She defies political gravity. I think she wins. If you're in Maine, if you're a Maine voter, I think you think, like, this is Susan's last time. Let's vote for her again. It's the last time she'll be running, I'm sure. And so I think she gets a pass. This guy's interesting. I think he'd be a much tougher candidate in the general election.
TAPPER: Very quickly, do you agree?
BEDINGFIELD: I don't. I actually think Mills will be the tougher candidate against Collins.
TAPPER: Oh, really.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes, I do. I mean, look, I think Platner, there's a lot of energy for him, and certainly he has energized a section of the electorate. But I think if you look at the median Maine voter, if you look at the kind of voters that the Democratic nominee's going to have to peel away from Susan Collins, I think Janet Mills is probably a better fit. But, you know, look, I like to see a robust primary, and we'll see where we go.
TAPPER: All right. We only have 30 seconds left, so I have Alaska and Ohio here. I'll just ask this. Which is more likely for Democrats to pick up, Alaska or Ohio?
BEDINGFIELD: Alaska.
TAPPER: What do you think?
URBAN: Yes, Alaska. So Ohio's impossible to win. Alaska's less. It's possible, but unlikely.
TAPPER: All right.
URBAN: Democrats don't win statewide in Alaska.
TAPPER: Kate Bedingfield -- well, except she, Mary Peltola, won statewide.
URBAN: Generally, right?
TAPPER: OK. As a House member. Anyway, although not last time. Kate Bedingfield, David Urban, thanks so much.
Coming up, our CNN chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, is going to be here. She tried to get President Trump to clarify comments today about deadly protests in Iran. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:55:58]
TAPPER: In our National Lead, 20 years ago, Mesfin Dollar left his small village in Ethiopia and flew to the United States to get life- saving surgery. And he was struck by rheumatic fever, which developed into heart disease, which meant open-heart surgery. It's a procedure that was not available in his home country. He was only 15 years old.
Mesfin Dollar flew to Atlanta where Dr. Jim Kauten, a cardiothoracic surgeon, repaired his heart valve and saved Mesfin's life. Now, 25 years later, Mesfin Dollar is a cardiac perfusionist at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and often returns to Ethiopia with Dr. Kauten to provide medical support there. Mesfin Dollar and Dr. Jim Kauten join us now.
Really an amazing story. Truly a full-circle moment. Mesfin, what's it like to work with the very surgeon who saved your life when you were just a kid?
MESFIN DOLLAR, CARDIOVASCULAR PERFUSIONIST: Thank you, Jake, for having us on your media platform. And, yes, it's very humbling. Just working along with Dr. Kauten is very meaningful for both of us. The one act of, you know, compassion, it doesn't just end at that moment. It, you know, it goes along into a generation and throughout the continent.
TAPPER: Dr. Kauten, what has this experience meant to you?
DR. JIM KAUTEN, RETIRED CARDIAC SURGEON PIEDMONT HEART INSTITUTE: Well, it has very deep meaning to be able to be trusted to operate on a patient. This patient was Mesfin, and I don't believe I've ever had the opportunity to work in any manner with any of my patients years later. So it's almost indescribable.
TAPPER: So through the nonprofit Heart Attack Ethiopia, you both offer life-saving treatments to millions of Ethiopians. Mesfin, as a cardiac perfusionist, you run the heart-lung machine for patients during some of the most complex surgeries in the world. What does it mean to you to be able to give back to your home country?
DOLLAR: It is absolutely very meaningful to me, to my, you know, home country as well. So once I was in that, you know, operating table, now I'm actually able to help those who are suffering from the same disease that, you know, struck my, you know, life 20-plus years ago. And yes, it's amazing, and it gives me a full circle, and really, it just gives me a total meaning for the life I'm living right now.
TAPPER: And Dr. Kauten, you serve on the board of Heart Attack Ethiopia. Tell us more about the important work that you do and the impact this group has in Ethiopia.
KAUTEN: Well, sadly, we can't fix everyone, but we go to Ethiopia at least two weeks out of the year. In 2024, we were there for a total of six weeks. And treating the patients that most likely would die without treatment is very rewarding. We do stents for patients with coronary disease. We do open heart surgery, valvular open heart surgery, as well as coronary bypass. And we've also done electrophysiology. So we've been fortunate to offer patients a new lease on life and a chance to be able to give back in their own communities. TAPPER: Dr. Jim Kauten and Mesfin Dollar, thank you so much. What an inspiring story. Really appreciate it.
KAUTEN: Thank you.
DOLLAR: Thank you, Jake.
[17:59:57]
TAPPER: And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, President Trump is refusing to take military action by the United States off the table in Iran after weeks of deadly protests there against the Iranian regime. But the President also announced --
