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The Lead with Jake Tapper

"New York Times" Reports, Trump Ordered Gabbard To Attend FBI Search In Georgia; Five-Year-Old Liam And Father Back In Minneapolis After Being Released From Federal Custody; Deputy A.G. Signals No New Charges In Epstein Investigation; Activists Turn To Corporate Boycotts To Push Back On ICE Tactics; NASA Runs Into Issues With Hydrogen Leaks Ahead Of Launch. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired February 02, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to the Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, we're learning new details about what reportedly happened behind the scenes of that FBI search at a Georgia elections office. The New York Times reporting today that President Trump not only had ordered the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, to travel down for the search related to the 2020 election, but the president also spoke to the FBI agents involved in the operation.

[18:00:13]

Much more on this unusual, aberrant situation in moments.

Also, it is the striking photo that became emblematic of the ICE crackdown, a five-year-old boy with his Spider-Man backpack and his bunny hat being taken away by ice agents. Now, five-year-old Liam and his father are back home after a judge ordered their release and a strong rebuke of the Trump administration. But is this case over?

And NASA running into some issues today in a crucial test for its moon mission. We're going to explain what happened during the dress rehearsal as the astronauts are already in quarantine preparing for the launch

The Lead tonight, an answer as to why President Trump's director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, was on the scene when FBI agents seized truckloads of 2020 ballots at a Fulton County, Georgia Election Center last week. The New York Times reports that President Trump personally ordered the director of National Intelligence to go to Atlanta for this operation, according to a U.S. official. The Times also reporting that the day after the raid, Ms. Gabbard used her cell phone to call Mr. Trump. The president addressed the FBI agents on speaker phone asking them questions, as well as praising and thanking them for their work, unquote.

You know, it's arguable whether a president's direct involvement in a law enforcement operation would clearly be an abuse of power, but this all comes as Trump is now shutting down the Kennedy Center for two years and suing the IRS for $10 billion of your tax dollars and threatening to sue Trevor Noah for a joke he made at the Grammys, all of a piece. We're also just learning that the Trump family had signed a $500 million deal with an Abu Dhabi royal for a stake in the Trump family's crypto operation, World Liberty Financial. This happened just four days before Trump's inauguration, according to a New Wall Street Journal report, which Trump just told reporters today he knew nothing about.

Even on this long list of stuff, this news about Gabbard phoning Trump to talk with FBI agents raiding an elections office for political reasons stands out. The Times reports that Trump had additionally coordinated her actions with the deputy FBI director, Andrew Bailey, according to U.S. officials, which directly contradicts, directly, what Deputy Attorney General Todd b Blanche told our colleague, Dana Bash, just yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The president told reporters, quote, they got into the votes. You're going to see some interesting things happening. What interesting things is he talking about and why was he so involved in an FBI and DOJ raid?

TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, just because he said that doesn't mean that he's involved. I don't believe he was involved.

As the president has said, election integrity is of the highest importance to the American people, hopefully to everybody in this country, Democrats and Republicans alike. And so we are doing everything we can to make sure that we have free and fair elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Well, it sure sounds like he was involved if he's directing the director of National Intelligence and talking to the FBI deputy director and talking to FBI agents on the scene. So, that was not true. And this focus on free and fair elections, I mean, he made this suggestion in an interview with the former FBI director, Dan Bongino, on his podcast today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The Republicans should say, we want to take over, we should take over the voting in at least many, 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. And then we have states that are so crooked and they're counting votes. We have states that I won that show I didn't win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: No, we don't. The states that show that Donald Trump lost, he actually lost.

I want to bring in CNN Chief Law Enforcement Analyst John Miller. John, how unusual is a phone call from a president to FBI agents during an FBI operation having to do with an election that he lost?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I can't think of anything more unusual but this entire thing is stacked with unprecedented kind of setting asides of morass and rules because you have the director of National Intelligence flying in on the scene leading an FBI operation, a criminal investigation, domestic criminal investigation on U.S. soil. Remember, the DNI has no investigative authorities. If you read IRTPA, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act, that creates the office, the DNI has no investigative authorities, has no authority to supervise or run an investigation by another agency.

[18:05:10]

The intelligence community should be focused on foreign threats, and here is the director of National Intelligence on the ground.

And then, according to this reporting in The New York Times by Willie Rashbaum, Devlin Barrett and Julian Barnes, three solid people when it comes to covering the intelligence community and the FBI, the next day after the raid, she's in the FBI office putting the agents on the phone after debriefing them with the president, who basically gives them an attaboy speech about after asking them questions about the case, what a great job they're doing.

This just doesn't occur. The FBI is supposed to be separated and apart from political influence, it is supposed to be independent and operating without fear or favor. A lot of that has gone out the window with the political appointments at the FBI, but not even the veil of the idea that they're operating independently now when you have outside agencies seeming to be in charge and the president talking to them or instructing them directly, it's bizarre.

TAPPER: And, John, in speaking directly to these FBI investigators, could the president or even Director of National Intelligence Gabbard, could they have compromised whatever this criminal investigation is?

MILLER: Well, Jake, if there's ever a charge, the entire defense is now kind of based on everything about this case that's not normal, and that seems politically influenced. They have basically constructed a defense by carrying it out this way.

TAPPER: An official told The New York Times that the White House had given Tulsi Gabbard far ranging authority to hunt for voter fraud in other states. Is that typical for a director of National Intelligence? Is that what they're supposed to be focusing on?

MILLER: The director of National Intelligence has several authorities when it comes to infrastructure protection and ensuring that things like voting and elections are safe from foreign cyber attack, foreign influence operations, which is very different from what we're seeing in a case where no one has ever suggested that that the 2020 election in Georgia, that the processes were affected by some foreign power. So, it's a little bit fish out of water there, and the Congressional committees that the DNI reports to haven't heard anything about China or Russia trying to hack into the Georgia voting machines, at least not yet.

TAPPER: John Miller, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss is Democratic Georgia State Senator Josh McLaurin. Josh, thanks you so much for joining us.

What do you make of this unusual order by Donald Trump to the DNI and also to the deputy FBI director and this phone call to the FBI agents?

STATE SEN. JOSH MCLAURIN (D-GA): Hi, Jake. Well, really glad to join you. I mean, the bottom line is that Fulton County is tired of being Donald Trump's punching bag, and we know that Trump is moving to weaponize agencies. I mean, DOGE was just the tip of the iceberg, it seemed, last year. Now, the FBI is some sort of personal goon squad, unfortunately, for Trump to carry out his bidding.

And it didn't seem to me from the FBI I agents that I saw in that video that you're showing right now that some of those agents were particularly happy to be there. I mean, you have a local FBI office in Atlanta where there's reporting that the -- one of the leading officials there was forced out in the last few days before the raid because they may not have been on board with this. This is all national FBI and DNI intrigue being foisted upon Fulton County, which is just the latest in the series of offenses and threats to Fulton County and our local administration that Donald Trump has brought over the years.

TAPPER: And just to reiterate, we've said this a million times, but Trump's own attorney general, Bill Barr, said there was no evidence of any fraud that would've swung the election in any state. And then you have the Republican governor, the Republican secretary of state and on and on and on, all of whom looked at the vote in Fulton County and said it was kosher. And then they looked at it again. The Fulton County commissioner confirmed to CNN that the county now plans to hit the Trump administration with a lawsuit challenging the legality of the FBI raid and seizure. Do you know when we can expect the lawsuit to actually be filed?

MCLAURIN: I heard rumors that it would be early this week, so we're all waiting with bated breath. And I mean that seriously. We want so badly at the state level for the Fulton County officials to stand up for the county, file the motion, challenge legality.

And I'll tell you what we already know. I've talked to election law experts who said that this criminal warrant is basically just a regurgitation of failed complaints that have been lodged with the MAGA-friendly state election board, but have still all been shut down. And so what we're seeing is just again, an attempt to rehash the same thing. You know, Senate Republicans in Georgia, ironically, on Groundhog Day, passed a resolution urging Brad Raffensperger today to turn over voter rolls with sensitive information. They just can't quit the addiction.

And, again, Groundhog Day is a very ironic day to do that.

[18:10:00]

It's like they want to replay the 2020 election over and over and over again at the expense of addressing voters' real concerns about the Epstein files, about ICE, about CBP, about tariffs, about costs, obviously, the list goes on, but it seems clear that the reason this raid was ordered, notwithstanding all of the finality of the review that's already been done, all of the procedure that has already been given to this fantasy, this conspiracy theory, it's obvious that the Steve Bannon playbook is in full effect, that Donald Trump is just ordering this raid to distract us from talking about Minnesota and the host of other problems that he's foisted upon the entire country.

TAPPER: We learned last week that the voting records were taken to an FBI records facility in Virginia. Do you have any information at all about what the FBI is doing with Fulton County's records at the moment?

MCLAURIN: We don't know. I mean, there were three huge enterprise moving trucks that where we saw the ballots being loaded. I was there myself Wednesday night, and we saw -- you know, again, it's impossible to see exactly what was going on, but the ballots moving on the trucks and then being carted away, at this point, it's anyone's guess.

And one of the things I've warned about, in addition to the possibility that the FBI lied in these warrants with affidavits that regurgitate lies about the election, the other possibility is that they're doing something to tweak these ballots. I mean, you just said a moment ago interviewing Mr. Miller that Tulsi Gabbard could be part of an effort to malign the Fulton County elections once again, but this time with a new lie about foreign interference.

So, our concern is that they're going to modify the original documents. And they took everything, as far as I'm aware. You know, they took all the records that we had without a clear chain of custody. And so whatever they do to these records, there's not going to be a way to undo it or disprove it once it's in their control.

So, I think voters really should be concerned about the upcoming midterm. There's really three harms that could result from this seizure. One is, you know, inflating the election denial conspiracies generally. Two is justifying a state or federal takeover of Fulton elections, which Georgia law has been passed, SB-202, the bill that criminalizes handing out water in line.

A lesser-known feature of that bill was that it allows the state to take over Fulton elections under certain circumstances. And the third thing is that if it works in Fulton County, what's to stop Donald Trump from raiding an elections office before, during, or after an election in Maricopa County or Wayne County or all those places. You know, you played that clip of him on the podcast today that he would like to go bust up.

So, Fulton County feels a special responsibility here. It's not just about our home state. And I only represent Fulton County right now. But, you know, one of the reasons I'm running for lieutenant governor this year is because we need a state pushback too. State Republicans have been more than complicit in beating up on Fulton County. And if we don't fight back now at the first line of defense, kind of like the people of Minnesota did, then we'll be in a position where Trump feels like he can get away with this after this trial balloon.

TAPPER: Georgia State Senator Josh McLaurin, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem says she's immediately deploying body cameras to all of the federal officers in Minneapolis. When she says the move could go into effect nationwide, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you now. The Department of Homeland Security secretary, Kristi Noem, says that all of her department's officers on the ground of Minneapolis will be issued body cameras. This move comes as DHS is facing increasing scrutiny over the conduct of these immigration enforcement personnel operations coming in the wake of the deaths, the shootings of Alex Pretti and Renee Good. Secretary Noem says, the body camera program will expand nationwide once funding is available.

Turning to our Law and Justice Lead, a judge ordered the release of five-year-old Liam Conejo Ramos. You'll remember Liam from the striking photo showing him being detained by ICE outside his Minneapolis home last month. Liam and his father spent more than a week inside a Texas detention facility before they released, both are back in Minneapolis now, where Liam has been reunited with his mother and his blue cartoon bunny hat.

We should note that while DHS described Liam's father as a, quote, illegal alien, their attorneys say that the family entered the United States legally and were in the midst of applying for asylum and communicating with the government.

One thing, especially notable about this case is the scathing rebuke of the Trump administration by the U.S. district judge, in his opinion, ordering Liam's release. Judge Fred Biery, a Clinton appointee, accused the Trump administration of, quote, traumatizing children, unquote, through what he calls, quote, ill-conceived and incompletely implemented -- or, I'm sorry, incompetently implemented daily deportation quotas.

The judge actually calls his opinion a civics lesson at one point. And then there's this biting line where he says, quote, for some among us, the perfidious lust for unbridled power and the imposition of cruelty in its quest knows no bounds and are bereft of human decency and the rule of law be damned, unquote. That's quite an order from a federal judge about the Trump administration.

But Judge Biery is not alone. In fact, in recent weeks, more and more judges are openly scolding the Trump administration for alleged abuses of the constitution and legal system with regard to the government's deportation efforts, quote, ICE is not a law unto itself, unquote, wrote Minnesota District Court Chief Judge Patrick Schiltz, in an order accusing the organization of violating 96 court orders across 74 cases. The judge writing, quote, this list should give pause to anyone, no matter his or her political beliefs, who cares about the rule of law. ICE has likely violated more court orders in January 2026 than some federal agencies have violated in their entire existence, unquote.

Perhaps what's most notable about that is that Judge Schiltz is a George W. Bush appointee who clerked for the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Nor are these rebukes just happening in Minnesota. Judge Mary McElroy, a Trump appointee to the U.S. District Court for Rhode Island, is similarly accusing ICE of defying her orders in January, writing, quote, it seems clear that the court can conclude that the Trump administration willfully violated two of this court's orders and willfully misrepresented facts to the court, unquote.

There is nothing normal about judges accusing the government of willfully defying court orders in these numbers. So, will any of this give pause to those who claim to care about the rule of law and the U.S. Constitution?

One of the top officials at the Justice Department is telling CNN that he doesn't think any more charges will be brought in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Well, coming up next, we're going to talk to the journalist who exposed many of the horrific details of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. She's going to join us live to react, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, U.S. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche signaling over the weekend that no new charges will be brought in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Blanche's comments come just a few days after the Justice Department released more than 3 million pages of files related to Epstein.

Joining us now is Miami Herald Investigative Reporter Julie K. Brown. She's the author of Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein Story, a fantastic book. Her work in the Miami Herald exposed many of their horrific details of Epstein's alleged sex trafficking ring, and she's continuing that work on her Substack. It's called The Epstein Files by Julie K. Brown. I recommend both.

Julie, what was your reaction after hearing Todd Blanche essentially say that there was nothing in the released files that allowed us to prosecute anybody, unquote?

JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE MIAMI HERALD: Well, let's break it down a little bit. First of all, they initially said there, there was nothing to see here at all, and we are finding out now that there were other people who were accused, other men specifically who were accused of sexually assaulting and raping, in some cases, underage girls.

A lot of those documents, however, are redacted. These men's names are blacked out, and so we can't see who they are, the ones that we do know about that aren't redacted, those cases where they list that they were accused of wrongdoing, the case, notes themselves, are redacted. So, we can't see what action they took or they didn't took, or how they reached the conclusions that they did that this person shouldn't be prosecuted.

So, it's more, to me, the story here is what they haven't released and what they're hiding more than why that they're not pursuing these charges. They're not being transparent to the public about exactly who has been accused and why they reached these conclusions.

TAPPER: Yes. And you see these accusations and from the FBI 302s, those are the notes when somebody makes an allegation, it's not proof unto itself, but there's -- you're not able to see, well, did they follow that up, did they investigate, did they assign somebody to this? President Trump, and, again, nobody has publicly proved that he did anything wrong related to the Epstein files, but President Trump, he's mentioned more than a thousand times in these 3 million Epstein documents released Friday. He's, again, long denied any wrongdoing related to Epstein.

Asked about the allegations made against Trump, Blanche said, the deputy attorney general said many of the allegations made against the president were not credible, that they came from anonymous tips or unverifiable sources. And just a short time ago, President Trump said this,

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. And, in fact, if you look at the DOJ, they announced -- you know, they released 3 million pages. It's like this is all they're supposed to be doing. And, frankly, the DOJ, I think, should just say we have other things to do, because that whole thing has turned out -- I mean, other than Bill Clinton and, you know, Bill Gates and lots of people that have -- there are a lot of questions about it, but nothing on me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, it's not true that there are no questions. What do you make of that?

BROWN: Well, first of all, it's -- doesn't it seem a little strange that there are only certain names that are out there that aren't blacked out while there are other names that are blacked out? It's like they picked certain people that they wanted to allow to be exposed, and they didn't pick other people because, obviously, there's other names in there that are blacked out. So, that's the first question.

And then the other thing I would point out is if I ignored every tip that I got as a journalist or any, every anonymous source that told me something without even investigating or looking into it, I mean, I wouldn't have any stories to write. I mean, you will always have to pay attention to tips.

And some of these tips, quite frankly, although they -- some of them seem pretty wild and, you know, they seem kind of crazy, some of them, however, seem to have a little bit of a pattern to them. If you look at them, a lot of them concerned these model parties at either Epstein's home or at Mar-a-Lago. And we do know that there were underage girls at some of these parties. And so it's possible that some of these tips maybe could have been investigated because they do follow a pattern.

TAPPER: Julie K. Brown, thank you so much, and thanks as always for your important journalism.

Just weeks after putting his name on the front of the building, President Trump is now saying that the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts is going to close for two years, starting in July for renovations. I'm going to get a reaction from a member of the Kennedy Center Board, who is also a member of Congress, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, President Trump says that he is going to shut down the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, D.C., for two years, starting in July for renovations. It has nothing to do with the fact that there's a flood of artists canceling performances since Trump's takeover of what is supposed to be an apolitical venue. No, Trump did not mention that. And perhaps Trump did not see The Washington Post report from last October or about ticket sales for the orchestra theater and dance performances being the worst since the COVID pandemic.

With me now, Democratic Congresswoman Joyce Beatty of Ohio, she's a Congressional member of the Kennedy Center Board of Trustees.

So, Congresswoman, last October, Trump said that the Kennedy Center would remain fully open during construction, renovation, and beautification, unquote. Then today, after lagging ticket sales and all these cancellations by artists, Trump said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's in very bad shape. It's run down, it's dilapidated. It's sort of dangerous. Things fall out.

You can't do any work because people are coming in and out. I was thinking maybe there's a way of doing it simultaneously, but there really isn't.

I'm not ripping it down. I'll be using the steel, so we're using the structure.

[18:35:00]

We're using some of the marble and some of the marble comes down. But when it's open, it'll be brand new and really beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Trump also said that the renovation will probably cost about $200 million. So, what's your reaction to this news? REP. JOYCE BEATTY (D-OH): Well, first of all, he illegally puts his name on the Kennedy Center, and now at the last minute he's trying to save himself. He has embarrassed his country. He has embarrassed the arts. And here's what we know. The Congress provides the funding for that. We gave in October $45 million, $13 million of which he said would be for restoration.

And maybe the president doesn't know that there's a difference between restoring something and doing a demolition. We had given $256 million, but that was to last until 2029. Once again, there was no indication that there was going to be the closure. Just a few months ago, he said it would not close while he was doing some restoration. Now, it's going to close for two years. You know why?

He's scrambling for cover because he's embarrassed more than 20 artists and performers, including the National Opera, when we think of the Symphony 15, Renee Flemings, a jazz quartet that has performed for some 30 years. So, between the donors pulling away and the artist not wanting to be a part of this specifically because he started with putting his name on the building. He cannot silence us, and he certainly can't silence me.

I'm not going to be bullied by him. We filed a lawsuit. We're also looking into legal ramifications of what he's done now. No indication to the full board that he was proposing a two-year cut after saying he would not close it. They would do it while it was open. We know what he did in the sunken garden and the East Wing. He thinks he's unstoppable, but the donors and the artists are speaking out loudly and clearly. Even at the Grammys the other night, people are speaking out against him.

I think he's embarrassed and we know he's embarrassed this country. He's embarrassed the arts. And, Donald Trump, we're not going to allow that. I want my message to be loud and clear.

TAPPER: When you attend board meetings for the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, when the board members are talking, is their main concern renovations? Do they express any concern over artists pulling out or the low attendance?

BEATTY: Well, you have to remember, we have not had a board meeting since that last board meeting when they announced that his name was going to go up on the building. Once again, it was not unanimous. We weren't allowed. I wasn't allowed to voice my concern. And my concern was he cannot do that on his own. We know that had been planned because within 48 hours or less, the letters were already there. They were up on the building, and he can't do that to the only living memorial we have of John F. Kennedy.

Yes, the family has spoken out, but you have to also remember, he came in and fired the chairman of our board, fired David, fired Deborah, who was our CEO, and put on the board all of his little cronies who do just what he tells them to do.

TAPPER: So, when --

BEATTY: Most of the board members were removed.

TAPPER: So, when Rick Grenell, who is now in charge of day-to-day operations at the Kennedy Center, when he was interviewed by PBS about a month ago about all these changes and all the artist cancelations and all the bad ticket sales, he pointed -- he said that, first of all, venues all over the country, including Broadway, are having a tough time, and, two, that Trump has done a great job with raising corporate funds, $130 million or something like that. Is that accurate? And what do you think of that argument?

BEATTY: Well, I think at the time when he said it, he might have believed it or been told to say it by Donald Trump, but it's very clear now when you look at the donors who are pulling out, you cannot maintain the stamina that we had prior to Donald Trump when you have major artists going away, donors and our records now reflect that between him being anti-DE and I, we had artists to stop performing then and now coupled with his illegal placement of his name on the building, and then this latest shut down for two years.

He doesn't care about the jobs and the salaries because here's the thing, what happens to all of those employees when it's shut down? Traditionally, if you were going to do a shutdown or a merger, you would have study committees to talk about it. It would come before the full board. None of that has happened. Donald Trump made this decision to try to save himself the embarrassment because he's not going to have people attending the Kennedy Center because of him.

[18:40:07]

TAPPER: Democratic Congresswoman Joyce Beatty of Ohio, thank you so much, always good to have you on, ma'am.

BEATTY: Thank you.

TAPPER: My next guest is calling on Americans to use their wallets to send a message to the Trump administration and use their phones. We'll tell you how, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In Our Money Lead, our next guest argues that protests alone aren't going to change the Trump administration when it comes to its immigration enforcement tactics, but rather how you vote with your dollars and your apps could.

Here now, Scott Galloway, a bestselling author, podcast host, professor of marketing at New York University. I could go on and on, but we only have two hours.

Scott, before we get to what you're calling, quote, resist and unsubscribe, do you think protests like Friday's national shutdown, do you think they don't work or don't work as well as this will?

SCOTT GALLOWAY, PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: Well, I think it's a cumulative effect. I think protest is really powerful, one. Just on a basic level, it feels good to do something with other people.

[18:45:04]

It does build infrastructure, builds lists, gives people a sense of empowerment. So, I think it's any type of protest is powerful. The problem with a one day strike is it's more of an annoyance. I think you need sustained week-long or month-long protests or economic strikes to begin to build real momentum.

So, I think it all adds up. I think there's a cumulative effect, but I -- you know, my thinking about this, I think these national protests are incredibly inspiring. The issue, Jake, is that it appears the administration doesn't really immediately respond to signs, they're more cinematic so far than effective. What I've seen is that the administration responds to one thing and one thing only, and that is markets.

Specifically, when the 10-year spikes or the S&P goes down, they seem to walk away. Plans to annex Greenland or to raise tariffs. So, in my view, if we want to be in addition to being right, be effective. It's a focus on the markets.

TAPPER: So, you're calling on Americans who want Trump to walk back this tough, harsh immigration enforcement, to quote, resist and unsubscribe. This would be a month-long national economic strike.

What companies are you specifically targeting and why do you think this is the best way to actually force the administration to change their policies?

GALLOWAY: So, targeting two sets of companies, and I don't want to pretend to be the arbiter of where people should spend their money. I've created a site called Resistant Unsubscribe that has two types of companies. What I call ground zero, and that is big tech companies that appear to have the president's ear. And quite frankly, I would argue are enabling him.

And the reason why these firms are so powerful in terms of blocking your subscriptions or canceling is that if you look at, for example, Kroger's, if you were to tell people to stop or reduce their spend on grocery, Kroger trades at 0.3 at times revenues. OpenAI trades at 40 times revenue. So literally a dollar less spent on OpenAI is about 120 times more powerful.

And if you look at the S&P, of which 40 percent now constitutes a small number of subscription A.I. or tech-related companies, if you have an opponent, what you want to do is hit them hard, but hit them where it hurts most. So, I think for every ounce of action or in this case, inaction, you're going to get a much bigger effect because these are the folks who listens to, these are the people. These are the companies that drive the markets.

And, Jake, you don't have to give up your Saturday. You don't have to stop going to work. And not to not to in any way disparage those. But this is the easiest, highest ROI means of sending a message to the president is to go after subscription revenues of big tech companies.

And then the second layer down, what I'm calling the blast zone is companies that are directly working with ICE, whether it's AT&T or Palantir or Hilton housing ICE employees that are enabling or providing the infrastructure for ICE actions.

TAPPER: So, let's look at some of the companies you talk that you're talking about. Ground zero includes tech giants Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Uber, as well as their subscription services, just to name a few.

So, you would ask people to unsubscribe from all of those companies and subscriptions for a month?

GALLOWAY: I think it's up to the individual. I guess the question I would ask is, what I've done in my family is I've said, do we really need five streaming media platforms? I found in my company there are a lot of redundant LLMs. Do we need both Anthropic and ChatGPT?

I have found that I've been taking approximately 350 uber rides a year. I've started taking the subway. I think there are fairly easy means of finding subscription based, tech driven cash flows that you can not only save money on, but will have a real impact.

I also find this is a little bit like dry January, where it's a decent time to take stock of where you can save money while also having a big impact. And I think most of us, what we don't fully realize, for example, uber has raised its prices seven to 10 percent a year for the last ten years, and most of big tech consolidates the market with a below market pricing. And then slowly but surely raises prices as streaming media has done.

So I'm suggesting you not only have a big impact on the markets and send a strong message to the administration, but you'll find that you're probably spending money where you don't need to be and that prices have increased or creeped up. And this is a great way to take stock of where you might be able to save money with very little or minimal downside to your family.

Do you really need five streaming platforms? Do you need two LLMs? Do you need three ride hailing companies? I think this is a chance to do some spring cleaning financially, if you will.

TAPPER: Interesting. And under Meta, you list links to delete Facebook and WhatsApp, but write, quote, "Hey, we'd boycott Instagram, to which we should note is also owned by meta if we need it to get we need it to get this message to you," unquote.

So, what would you tell someone who wants to support your effort but they can't, lets say delete WhatsApp because they use it to communicate with all their friends and family members, many of whom are abroad?

[18:50:05]

GALLOWAY: I think it's a fair point. Look, I don't believe in coal fired plants, but I turn on my lights, and what I would suggest is we need to vote for an administration that has strong antitrust such that if we don't like that a company is helping teens engage in suicidal ideation or does not seem to care about the weaponization of their platforms during elections, that we need an administration that has antitrust, because where we are now is the following. It is very hard to get any sort of traction in a movement like this, unless you engage with a company that has monopoly power over news and information, which is Meta.

Two thirds of Americans are now getting their news from social media. In two thirds of social media is controlled by one company. So, I want to be clear, I am not happy about having to use Meta, but the reality is they have monopoly power. And most of these, most of these don't. There's a viable substitute.

I haven't found a substitute for communicating this type of effort without the endorsement of Meta. However, you can, not click on their ads or not advertise on Meta. But to be honest, I'm stuck with a coal fired plant called Meta right now, Jake.

TAPPER: It's interesting that you talk about this because I debate with some of my friends out in Hollywood as to why ultimately, Bob Iger and Disney buckled and put Kimmel back on the air. I always say, look, after they suspended after Iger buckled to what Brendan Carter of the FCC and Trump were pushing and they suspended Jimmy Kimmel live, there was this spike in cancellations for their products -- Disney Plus, Hulu. And a week later, ABC put Kimmel back on the air.

There are other people who say no, no, no. Iger was always going to do the right thing, and he cares about his legacy, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't think that.

What do you think?

GALLOWAY: There are studies on this, Jake. The reason that -- the reason that Disney and these movements are powerful is because of Jake Tapper.

And it's not even an economic damage. Its reputational damage that creates margin pressure. People don't want to go to work with them. Their employees start emailing the CEO.

The actual number of subscriptions was meaningful or cancellations, but not profound. What really moved the needle here was when media picked up on this and said that this appears to be nothing but enabling the president intimidation of the press, which -- I mean, we know this the moment you start intimidating or letting journalists be arrested or intimidating companies into what type of content it gets FTC approval or not, it is very hard to put that genie back in the bottle.

TAPPER: Yeah.

GALLOWAY: And whether it was Turkey in 2012 or Russia in the early 2000, all it leads to is a nation that is angrier and much poorer. But typically, it's reputational advantage vis-a-vis the media reporting on these issues as opposed to actual financial damage.

TAPPER: Interesting. You also, let's talk about the blast zone. These are active enablers in your -- in your parlance of ICE. Blast zone companies, this is, as you noted, AT&T, Comcast, FedEx, Marriott, Home Depot, Lowe's.

Do you see any one of those companies having more influence over the president than others in terms of boycotting them?

GALLOWAY: The thing that has the most impact on the president, quite frankly, is the big tech platforms that control or move the markets.

So, for example, when Microsoft missed barely missed expectations, its stock it shed 10 percent of its market cap, which is 1 percent of the Nasdaq. And when you look at the sympathy where other companies traded down, the Nasdaq 100 lost 1.5 percent of its value. That is a real market movement.

In some, the president listens to the markets and surrounds himself with who he believes are his new idols, and that is billionaires. And then they all text you and text me saying they hate themselves, which quite frankly, doesn't do us a lot of good.

So it's really the string that gets pulled here. The results in action is the companies where the smallest amount of revenue misses create the most disruption in the marketplace. So whether that's Hilton or AT&T, the companies in the blast zone, quite frankly, maybe with the exception of Palantir, which trades at 100 times revenues, they are not who I think this president listens to.

This president listens to companies that drive the market and who he can use as props. Let me get very dark for a second. Early 1930s, the CEOs of the biggest industrial companies in Germany made a deal with Hitler and said, we will keep quiet on this slow grade to fascism if you get rid of the trade unions and make us more profitable. They put their morals and their fears aside to make more money.

And I think there's a strong analogy and comparison with what is happening today. And that is the CEOs have opted for profits despite the fact they know what is going on here. It directly attacks the underpinnings of democracy and rule of law that they have enjoyed to ascend to the heights they've ascended to.

This is -- we have been here before, and it does not end well.

[18:55:00]

TAPPER: Fascinating stuff. Scott Galloway, we can't get enough of you on the show. Come back soon.

The latest test for NASA's next moon mission is running into some issues today. That story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our last lead start in our out of this world lead, a so-called wet dress rehearsal of the Artemis two launch is happening now. NASA hopes to send the first crewed mission around the moon in more than 50 years. Now, during this rehearsal, NASA goes through all the steps of a traditional launch, from fueling to countdown. But then they stop just before takeoff.

A hydrogen leak this afternoon, however, forced NASA to temporarily stop it's fueling. NASA hopes the real launch will take place before late April.

Some breaking baby news before we go, we are thrilled to welcome Nora Jane to the lead family, the daughter of our producer Haley and her husband Brendan. Nora was born last Tuesday, January 27th, weighing in nine pounds, four ounces. That's a big baby.

Congratulations to Haley and Brendan and big sister Isla (ph). We cannot wait to meet baby Nora.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.