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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Sen. Mark Warner, (D-VA), Is Interviewed About Fulton County Challenges FBI Seizure Of Ballots As Trump says Republicans Should "Take Over" Elections, Watchdog: Whistleblower Complaint Centers On Sharing Of Classified Intel; Rep. Mike McCaul, (R-TX), Is Interviewed About Trump warns Iran's Supreme Leader Should Be "Very Worried", J.D. Vance, Alex Pretti; Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Sen. Durbin Push To End Tech Companies' Immunity From Lawsuits Stemming From User-Generated Content. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 04, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks very much to my panel for being here today. Really appreciate all of you. Thanks to you at home for watching as well. We really appreciate you.

Don't go anywhere though, because Jake Tapper is standing by for the lead. Hi, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. Six more days until pitchers and catchers, by the way.

HUNT: Please, I need it.

TAPPER: Yes.

HUNT: The snow is killing me. Let's bring on the baseball.

TAPPER: We'll look for more tomorrow on "The Arena."

HUNT: Thanks. You, too.

[17:00:34]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Fulton County, Georgia is punching back. The Lead starts right now. The FBI is facing a brand new lawsuit from Fulton County, Georgia, one week after its raid seizing boxes of ballots and other information from the 2020 election. Trump observers fear that the president is trying to set up an excuse to interfere in the midterm elections later this year. Is this latest back and forth just the beginning?

A Fulton county official believes some arrests could be next. Plus, President Trump's new warning to the leaders of Iran saying the supreme leader should be very worried. Is the president raising the stakes with the talks set for Friday? And in the disappearance of the mother of "Today" show anchor Savannah Guthrie, Nancy Guthrie, what clues a disconnected iPhone and pacemaker might provide as this desperate search -- desperate search stretches into day four. Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to start in our politics lead. Fulton County, Georgia wants its 2020 election ballots back. County officials have filed a federal court challenge seeking the return of the 2020 election ballots that the FBI seized last week. Not only was Fulton County at the center of President Trump's bogus and completely disproven 2020 election fraud claims but Trump this week is also saying that he wants Republicans to take over elections in Atlanta and other counties and state -- states that he lost in 2020, even though the U.S. Constitution is pretty clear that the states have the power to run federal elections.

Now, little is publicly known about how the Justice Department under Pam Bondi justified this warrant. So Fulton County wants the judge in Atlanta to unseal the investigative affidavit that agents submitted to get that search warrant.

Here's a look at Fulton County police body cam footage obtained by the Atlanta Journal Constitution. It shows confusion during this FBI raid last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The warrant will be amended slightly. But for all intents and purposes, what they had is what it's going to look like. We want a sit (ph). Let her facilitate us moving through the building to unlock the gates so that we don't have to breach it because one way or the other, the records are coming with us today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So many unusual things about this. One of them, of course, you'll recall that the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, was present for the raid, instructed to be there by President Trump. Gabbard later put the president on the phone to talk to those FBI agents, according to sources, which is unusual, if not entirely inappropriate. Gabbard says the president did not ask questions or issue any directives on the call. But today the chairman of the Fulton County Board of Commissioners, Robb Pitts, gave his take on Tulsi Gabbard's presence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBB PITTS, CHAIRMAN, FULTON COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS: That leads me to believe and any rational, thinking person that there's something sinister going on here. There's something bigger than just the FBI confiscating the record -- records that they took.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Pitts also said something else that is raising alarm bells.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PITTS: I received a call on Monday before last Wednesday before the raid that there were going to be arrests in Georgia. Secretary of State, his deputy, Sterling, I believe his name is, me and two or three others. I received another call, actually it was Monday, this Monday, same source saying that you guys can't relax even though the FBI has been there and they've confiscated the 700 boxes, arrests are coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The Lead reached out to the Justice Department and their reply was no comment. Let's go to CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.

And Kristen, this has been a continuous topic for the president. And now it seems as though he's going to try to use these delusional disproven election claims about 2020 as a way to justify interfering in elections in areas that he lost that time in the midterms.

[17:04:57]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And we've been reaching out about what specifics the White House can give us because I will remind you that the press secretary actually came out to a gaggle and defended the fact that Tulsi Gabbard was there, not only saying that the president had directed her to go down to Atlanta, but also citing something that we had not heard before, which was this idea that Gabbard has been tasked with election integrity and security as one of her key priorities. That was not something that we were aware of at the time. And she says that the FBI is working hand in hand with Director of National Intelligence with Tulsi Gabbard as they work towards this kind of election security.

But the reason why that itself was so confusing is the fact that the Department of Justice said they had no idea why Gabbard was on the ground. But clearly this is part of the beginning of an effort of President Trump to continue to try to hunt answers for what he believes was him being wronged in 2020 and losing the election, which, of course, there is no evidence of, but also this perpetuation of an idea that perhaps he believes he could nationalize elections, which, as we have noted, is against the Constitution.

TAPPER: All right, Kristen Holmes, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Let's discuss this with Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. He is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Senator, do you think Fulton County's legal challenge to the Trump administration will be successful? And is it possible that there was some sort of wrongdoing that actually warranted the search warrant?

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA), VICE CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: You know, Jake, I don't know. I have seen no evidence. And let's go through what we do know. The Director of National Intelligence, who has no responsibility for domestic criminal investigations, shows up at this serving of the warrant, is there no role. If there was a foreign influence issue, her obligation is to tell the committee. She's told us nothing. And then the following day goes out and gets the president on the phone to talk to the FBI agents who are doing the investigation.

I know Donald Trump doesn't know anything about the Constitution, but wouldn't you have thought somebody in the White House would say, don't talk to the frontline investigators? We just had some of these questions raised in a hearing, and part of the excuse was, well, that the president had asked Gabbard to get engaged. Well, if he'd asked her, why was the president even aware of a search warrant being issued? I mean, the president United States is not supposed to be weighing in before any even indictments. This is -- remember, I keep saying indictment.

It was just servicing a search warrant. What in the hell is the president of United States doing -- knowing about that and then asking the Director of National Intelligence again, who has no role, to show up here.

TAPPER: Yes. The -- I want you to listen to what your Republican senator -- your Republican colleague, Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina said when asked about Trump saying earlier this week that he wanted Republicans to take over elections in 15 areas that he lost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Actually it has its roots with Stephen Miller, none other. And I'm as against nationalized election now as I was back in 2022 when the Democrats tried to do it.

There's simply not votes. That's why if nothing else, Stephen Miller really needs to get back to us. He's probably focused too much on his Duke education and should go back to third grade math. My granddaughter can figure out we don't have the votes to get that done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So tell us his reference to 2022. That's reference to Democrats trying to pass legislation having to do with voting, making it easier to vote, et cetera, et etcetera, seizing control of doing the elections. Controlling the elections in 15 places is quite different. But either way, do you share Tillis's confidence that there simply aren't the votes there? Trump can't make this happen.

WARNER: Thank goodness, at least on this issue, Leader Thune stood up and said, no, you can't go against the Constitution. And the incredible thing is Jake, you know this, even when we -- when entities like the cybersecurity agency tried to help local electors, election systems have better cybersecurity standards. We had pushback from local Republican officials saying, hey, we don't want the feds to be involved at all. So I know we're in the Alice in Wonderland, up is down and down is up. But this is beyond wacky and bizarre. And whether it's Stephen Miller or whether whatever this crowd, folks who don't know the law, who don't respect any of our principles, and sure as heck don't have any respect for the basic integrity of our election system.

TAPPER: Yes. WARNER: You know, a year ago when people raised these concerns, I thought, well no, that's a little over fetched. I -- it's not outlandish and fetch. I think there is at least a crowd in the White House that wants to take away the ability to have votes, fairly counted and cast.

[17:10:11]

And candidly, I go back again with this very thin, non-released basis for issuing this search warrant. What in the heck is the president of the United States knowing -- doing knowing about that beforehand? And why in the heck would he send the Director of Foreign Intelligence, Foreign Intelligence gathering to that effort? Especially since, just quick, I know my time's up, but you know, this crowd already got rid of the FBI, Foreign Election Influence Center. They got rid of the ODNI Director of National Intelligence, Foreign Election Center.

They have done nothing to protect our elections --

TAPPER: Yes.

WARNER: -- in the last year other than focus on Donald Trump's obsession about his loss.

TAPPER: So you're part of the Gang of Eight, which is leaders of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, and also leaders of the Intelligence Committees. Yesterday you reviewed a classified whistleblower complaint involving the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. Now, Gabbard's office has called the complaint baseless and politically motivated. I know it's classified. Is there anything you can tell us?

Do you have concerns about the contents of the complaint? Is it credible?

WARNER: Well, Jake, I can't. Unlike a lot of folks in the White House, unlike the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, I think classified information ought to stay classified. I can't comment on what I saw. I can tell you this, it was way overly redacted, which makes it hard to draw a substantive conclusion.

But I can tell you this, the process, and I'll have more to say about this in the coming days, but the process is not optional. You get a whistleblower complaint, and if the whistleblower wants the complaint to go to Congress, it's supposed to be transmitted in 21 days. This complaint was filed in May. Somebody's not telling the truth about what they knew or who knew the law or didn't know the law. Either Tulsi Gabbard is completely ignorant of the law, or her lawyers didn't tell her the truth or lied to her.

Because there is -- there is now a chain that raises huge concerns about the process, even beyond the substance of the complaint, about how this was handled and why this whistleblower's complaint literally appears to have been squashed for months on end. And the only reason I had a chance actually today to look at it was because the full Gang of Eight, including the speaker of the House and Majority Leader Thune and Tom Cotton, all said hey, cut the crap. We got to -- we got to see this.

TAPPER: Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, thank you so much, sir. Appreciate it.

Coming up, the response From Vice President J.D. Vance when asked if he should apologize to the family of Alex Pretti, the ICU nurse shot and killed last month by federal agents in Minneapolis. Vance, as you might recall, retweeted an accusation that Pretti was an assassin with no evidence.

In Arizona right now, dark times and faith tested by the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the mother of "Today" show anchor Savannah Guthrie. How the community there is using the power of prayer in hopes of her safe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:05]

TAPPER: In our national lead, the White House tells CNN that President Trump called and spoke with "Today" show anchor Savannah Guthrie today as the investigation into the disappearance of her mother, 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie, extends into its fourth day in Tucson, Arizona. The Pima County sheriff says that his office is looking at all possible leads as potential evidence, including unverified ransom notes sent to media organizations and data from Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker that shows that the pacemaker last synced with her phone around 2:00 a.m. Sunday. Let's bring in CNN's Ed Lavandera, who's in Tucson for us.

And Ed, that pacemaker information could really narrow the timeline here.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's really helpful because there's such a large window where investigators are trying to get clarity on what happened. We do know that it was Saturday night that Nancy Guthrie was brought back here to her home after having dinner. And that happened just before 10:00 p.m. and it wasn't until the next morning that a friend from church realized that she had not shown up for church services. And that got the ball rolling on this investigation. So, you know, there's probably a 12 plus hour window there where it was unclear what might have happened.

So now you have this information of this pacemaker syncing up with her iPhone, which investigators say was found here at the house. So that suggests that if whatever happened might have happened around that time. So that is why investigators have been very urgently asking the public for help in trying to track down any kind of video, maybe door cameras that caught a car leaving this neighborhood around that time or in the surrounding areas. And also pinpointing investigators to be able to, you know, track down and follow, you know, cell phone information as well in the area. So, you know, a crucial key piece of evidence right there.

TAPPER: And, Ed, the community in Tucson is coming together tonight for Nancy Guthrie. Tell us about that. LAVANDERA: Yes, there will be a vigil held at a church, not the church where Nancy Guthrie attended and where her friends had reached out, but apparently there's another family connection to this particular church that's happening at 6:00 Mountain Time, 8:00 Eastern. We were told that the Guthrie family members will not be in attendance here, but likely, you know, a large number of friends. And obviously, this is just something that has consumed and a story and a tragedy that is consuming so many people here in Tucson. So they've really felt the need to bring this vigil together to help kind of people cope through this tragic moment.

TAPPER: Yes. And I know the Guthrie family and Savannah all believe in the power of prayer. For anybody out there who's wondering what they can do to help, if you don't have any tips, the power of prayer is something the family really values.

Ed Lavandera in Arizona, thank you so much.

[17:19:58]

And as I said, anyone with information related to the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, including video, photos, anything, you can submit a tip by dialing 1-800-CALL-FBI. That's 1-800-CALL-FBI. You can also submit a tip online to local authorities at 88crime.org. That's 88crime.org.

Up next, President Trump's new warning today to the leaders of Iran. Plus the vice president's answer when asked about Alex Pretti, the ICU nurse and protester killed last month by federal agents in Minneapolis. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our world lead, the White House says talks between the U.S. and Iran will proceed this week despite the fact that the leaders of Iran wanted to change the venue and the format. But military strikes are still on the table if diplomacy fails. President Trump weighed in earlier today during an interview with NBC.

[17:25:14]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM LLAMAS, MBC NEWS ANCHOR: Should the supreme leader in Iran be worried right now?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would say he should be very worried. Yes, he should be. As you know, they're negotiating with us.

LLAMAS: I know they are, but the protesters have said, you know, where are the Americans? You promised them we would have their back. Do we still have their back?

TRUMP: Well, we've had their back. And look, that country's a mess right now because of us. We went in, we wiped out their nuclear.

LLAMAS: So why --

TRUMP: We want real peace in the Middle East.

LLAMAS: Yes, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Here to discuss Republican, Congressman Mike McFaul -- McCaul, McCaul, sorry, of Texas.

And, Congressman -- there's another -- there's a Mike McFaul also, although --

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Yes. He was ambassador to Russia. Yes.

TAPPER: Yes, so sorry.

MCCAUL: Yes.

TAPPER: I'm amazed. It's the first time I made that mistake. Anyway, Congressman, President Trump initially made threats against Iran, warning them against killing protesters, and the regime continued to kill protesters, and yet now Trump's threats and potential strikes are also tied to these nuclear negotiations. What do you think the president should have done? Do you think he should have acted sooner, given he told the protesters help is on its way?

MCCAUL: Well, I think, look, this is the largest state sponsor of terror that we're dealing with. I think after Maduro, every adversary like the Ayatollah should be in a little bit of a fear factor as to what this president may or may not do. The people of Iran, ultimately, it's, you know, it's their decision to make, in my judgment. And they lack really three things. They don't have a leader, they don't have the weapons necessary, and they don't have the communications that they need.

I would urge the president to get Starlink up and running so they can have communications both inside and outside of Iran. But the resistance right now as it stands, it's not -- they're not prepared to overthrow the Ayatollah as we speak. President's prepositioned military assets to deal with this issue and I know he has a lot of options on the table right now.

TAPPER: I want to ask you something about Minnesota, which is obviously on everybody's mind. Alex Pretti, the VA ICU nurse and protester who was shot and killed by federal agents in Minneapolis, he was initially called an assassin in a tweet by top White House aide Stephen Miller. Obviously wasn't true. The claim, the tweet was reposted by the vice president. The Daily Mail in brand new video, asked Vance if he was going to apologize to Pretti's family for it.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you apologized? Did you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Pretti?

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For, you know, labeling him an assassin with ill intent?

VANCE: Well, again, I just describe to you what I said about Alex Pretti, which is that he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ICE protest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. But if it is determined --

VANCE: He's a guy --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's determined that his civil rights were violated by this FBI investigation, will you apologize for that then?

VANCE: So if this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical leads to another hypothetical --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it's a real case --

VANCE: -- will I do a thing? And again, like I said, we're going to let the investigation determine. We're going to let the actual law come to the surface and figure out what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, they didn't let the investigation go on before they labeled him an assassin and a domestic terrorist. Do you think the vice president should apologize for amplifying this false claim that Alex Pretti was an assassin?

MCCAUL: Well, I think that's up to the vice president to apologize for his statement or not. He was clearly not an assassin. I think the videotape, you know, demonstrates that fact. And right now, you know, I called for an investigation into this right after the shooting occurred and the video came out. And I worked at DOJ for many years, including working with ICE.

And now it's up to the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice to investigate this crime scene to determine if there's predication to go forward with legal action or potentially an indictment.

So, look, the investigation should be fair. It should be independent of DHS, which it is. And I think what happened really highlights the errors and mishandling of the situation that Agent Bovino brought to Minneapolis. I think now with Tom Homan in charge, he wants to get back to the core mission of ICE, and that is to surgically come in and remove criminal aliens and violent felons from the streets that primarily the prior administration, as you know, Jake, let tens of millions in the country that we're now trying to get out.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas, always good to see you, sir. Thanks so much. MCCAUL: Thank you, Jake.

[17:29:56]

TAPPER: For years, many have pushed Congress to hold big tech companies accountable for the content on their platforms. Could a celebrity appearance today make a difference? Well, actor Joseph Gordon-Levitt hopes so. He's going to join us here live in studio next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Tech Lead, he's been around forever. And I can't list all of the credits on his resume because it's only a two-hour show. You might know him from his roles in "Don Jon," "500 Days of Summer," "3rd Rock From the Sun," "The Dark Knight."

Actor Joseph Gordon-Levitt joined forces with Senator Dick Durbin on Capitol Hill earlier today to take on big tech calling for reforms to Section 230. Section 230 is the law that protects tech companies from being sued over content posted by users.

[17:35:03]

Joseph Gordon-Levitt joins us now. Thank you so much for being here.

JOSEPH GORDON-LEVITT, ACTOR, WRITER & DIRECTOR: Hey, thanks for having me.

TAPPER: Big fan, I told you, some of my staffers know you all the way back to "Angels in the Outfield," which was a deep cut I didn't even know about.

GORDON-LEVITT: I'm very flattered. That's a good one. That's the one I've shown my kids.

TAPPER: Is that right?

GORDON-LEVITT: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: So Congress passed Section 230 in 1996 when the Internet was barely getting started. People didn't really, you know, it didn't -- whatever the Internet was like in 96 is not the same now.

GORDON-LEVITT: It's different.

TAPPER: And obviously the way we use the Internet has changed a bit. What ethical guardrails would you like to see put in place to regulate content while not obviously censoring?

GORDON-LEVITT: Yes, the first thing you really need to understand is the distinction between speech. We all want to protect free speech --

TAPPER: Yes.

GORDON-LEVITT: -- something that somebody says. But when a platform uses an algorithm to suck up as much of your time and attention as possible and use all the data points in this machine learning to maximize that ad revenue, that's not the same as human speech.

But right now the platforms are claiming that it is. And back 30 years ago when Section 230 was passed, they said, hey, we're just going to be these neutral platforms. Don't treat us like a publisher. We, you know, we're just a dumb pipe.

TAPPER: Right.

GORDON-LEVITT: But they're not dumb pipes anymore. They were maybe back then. If you just have a chronological feed of the people you follow and just what they say. Sure. That's maybe something more neutral. But I think nowadays on Instagram, TikTok, et cetera, it's only like 10 percent of what you get is stuff that you wanted to see because you follow that person, 90 percent of what you get is something that the algorithm is calculating you're going to get hooked by.

TAPPER: OK. So without getting too in the weeds, what are you looking for changes to? I mean, because it doesn't sound like you're talking about censorship per se. Are you talking about tweaking the algorithm so it's not just forcing rage bait into my feed?

GORDON-LEVITT: Well, so much of these terrible outcomes that we see are from these attention maximizing algorithms where there's like a mental health crisis, especially amongst young people.

TAPPER: Sure. Yes.

GORDON-LEVITT: Guys in extremism and conspiracy theories, these echo chambers that make it so we can't even have civil conversations with each other anymore. Yes. And but Section 230 protects these companies from getting sued when all these harms come to pass. And by the way, a lot of the harms who suffers them the worst, it's the kids.

TAPPER: Kids. Yes, no, we cover it a lot. You and your wife are both in the tech space. You founded an online community called HitRecord. I don't know what that is. Tell me what that is. And how has -- it sounds like your wife might have been the influence here because she comes from the tech world more than you. I'm sorry, HitRecord. I pronounced it.

GORDON-LEVITT: Well, it's a turn of phrase. You can either say.

TAPPER: Well, that's very kind of you to help me out with that. But how has it influenced your opinion on this topic?

GORDON-LEVITT: Yes. So, well, HitRecord was this thing I started a long, long time ago with my brother. And it was just an online community that kind of grew and grew and eventually became a VC backed media tech startup. And I went into the tech industry in Silicon Valley, honestly, not knowing anything and got sort of my quasi Stanford education running that company.

And when I went through all these experiences running that company, I learned not only about the tech, but about the business, about the business incentives that drive tech companies. Because ultimately, I think technology, you know, I raise my hands a lot these days about some concerns I have about technology, but it's not actually the tech. It's the businesses and their incentives that make tech harmful sometimes.

TAPPER: Yes.

GORDON-LEVITT: Because a technology like social media can be great or it can be really harmful. A technology like A.I., it can be great or it can be really harmful. It's sort of up to us how we use it. The problem is if there are no guardrails that are driving how the tech is designed and deployed and it's only motivated by profits, that's when we get these really damaging side effects that we're seeing.

TAPPER: Fascinating stuff. We'd love to have you back. And I know you're working on a movie, a fictional treatment about this very subject.

GORDON-LEVITT: That's exactly right. For Netflix for next year.

TAPPER: For Netflix.

GORDON-LEVITT: Rachel McAdams is going to be great.

TAPPER: Joseph Gordon-Levitt, it's an honor to have you here. Thank you so much.

GORDON-LEVITT: Thank you.

[17:39:21]

TAPPER: And you've likely noticed political ads look a lot different these days. The goal is to make you remember the message. Is it working? We're going to test the theory, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our Politics Lead now, it's getting nasty in the Republican primary race for governor of Georgia. Check out this ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you name me Brad?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, when you were first born, I thought to myself, how can my son spend his years doing almost nothing? I named you after Brad Raffensperger. I mean he did side with Stacey Abrams against President Trump, though. Turned on his own kind. Now he wants to be governor. I can only hope you'll do so precious little with your life. My second name choice was Judas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, that's how billionaire healthcare executive Rick Jackson is introducing himself in the political world. He's taking direct aim at Georgia's current secretary of state and governor hopeful, Brad Raffensperger, conservative Republican whom I'm sure you'll remember as a Republican. Investigated all of the questions raised by President Trump and his supporters during the state's 2020 presidential election results and found no evidence of fraud and also denied the President's entreaties to find the right number of votes to give the state to Trump as opposed to Biden and that turned him into a regular target of the President and his allies.

[17:45:02]

Our panel is here. National Review Editor Ramesh Ponnuru and former New York Democratic Congressman Steve Israel who's out with a new suspense novel, it's called "The Einstein Conspiracy." Steve, thanks for being here. Congressman, I should say. You served formerly as chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. What do you make of that ad? Remove the politics for -- remove your opinions about it for a second. Put yourself in the seat of just a viewer, somebody clicking around. Is it effective, do you think?

STEVE ISRAEL, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: For now, it's effective. What's even more important, you said this is going to be a nasty race. It's not only nasty, it's going to be very expensive.

TAPPER: Yes.

ISRAEL: Jackson has said he'll put $50 million of his own money into this race. There's already about $13 million spent against his opponents. So this is going to be a very expensive race. What I love about this ad is they get Judas Iscariot into this ad. I didn't even know that he was a registered voter.

And getting that in, I think it punches. The question is, at some point, he's going to have to talk about real issues like the cost of living, inflation, food prices, the economy.

TAPPER: What do you make of it? And you're allowed to give your opinion on the politics of it as well. And I'm going to come back to you and let you weigh in as well, Congressman.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Look, I think that it very effectively hits the tribal loyalty point. Why is this guy backing Stacey Abrams, hated Democratic figure in a Republican primary vote electorate, versus Donald Trump, who Republicans still overwhelmingly support? And the answer to that question is because that's where the law and the facts on that particular issue happen to be.

TAPPER: Right.

PONNURU: And what Jackson is accusing Raffensperger of doing is following his duty.

TAPPER: Yes, but here's the thing, and we all know this, is like, I can't think of a Republican who wouldn't have loved to have found evidence of fraud.

ISRAEL: And they can't. TAPPER: And they can't because there wasn't --

ISRAEL: That's right.

TAPPER: -- any. So, you know, what do you think of the fact that --

ISRAEL: Listen, I have one simple perspective as the former chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. The more money Republicans spend in Georgia attacking one another, the happier we Democrats are. There's a crowded primary for the governor's race.

TAPPER: Yes.

ISRAEL: Let them salvage each other on the air and spend all that money against themselves.

TAPPER: Also in Georgia, Democrats released this ad against former Tennessee football coach and Republican Senate candidate Derek Dooley, where they rolled the tape on his football record. Here's just a clip of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEREK DOOLEY, REPUBLICAN SENATE CANDIDATE: And let me tell you, in football, we have a saying, your film is your resume.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dooley's career at Tennessee lasting just 36 games. His record, 15 wins, 21 losses.

DOOLEY: With results like that, in the profession I came from, your ass goes to the bench.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Ramesh, Dooley's taking on incumbent Democratic Senator Jon Ossoff. And he has been endorsed by outgoing Governor Brian Kemp. What do you make of that ad and Dooley's candidacy?

PONNURU: I think it is a strong opening ad to introduce him as a political figure to voters in Georgia. I don't know that in the end that's going to be the line of attack that works against Dooley.

TAPPER: You were a bad coach.

PONNURU: Yes, exactly.

TAPPER: What do you think?

ISRAEL: Two stars. They tried this against Tuberville in Tennessee. He didn't have a really stellar football record.

TAPPER: Alabama.

ISRAEL: I'm sorry, Alabama.

TAPPER: Yes. ISRAEL: Didn't have a really -- didn't have a stellar football record. They tried a very similar ad. It didn't work. I agree completely. At the end of the day, it's going to be about the core issues that are animating the voters in this midterm election.

TAPPER: We also saw former Capitol Hill police officer Harry Dunn announce a bid for Congress in Maryland. Dunn, who protected the Capitol during the insurrection in 2021, was one of the four officers to publicly testify before Congress about the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRY DUNN, FORMER CAPITOL HILL POLICE OFFICER: Here's the thing. Lawlessness isn't always a mob. Now, it comes with a title, a budget, a badge, a weapon, and lies from behind the podium.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So this is his second run. He lost in the primary last time in a competitive race. What do you think of that one?

ISRAEL: A midterm election is always fundamentally a referendum on the President. And you're going to see ads like this play out because independent voters break against the President's party and they need to be animated. So this ad, I think, is effective and you're going to see it replicated in many respects. But I will say this in that district, that's Steny Hoyer's district.

TAPPER: Yes.

ISRAEL: He is a legend. A lot of federal workers have been really impacted by DOGE and other cuts. And I think that Hoyer's voice and his endorsement, he did not endorse Harry, is more meaningful than any kind of paid media that you're seeing.

TAPPER: What do you think?

PONNURU: I think that that is the kind of ad we are going to be seeing in a lot of Democratic primaries because it hits all of the issues that Democratic voters are enraged about. And I think it's very much like 2018, the first midterm Trump had. There's going to be a lot of kind of that resistance spirit coming back.

[17:49:58]

TAPPER: So there's already a Vindman in Congress. That's the brother of the one who was the whistleblower. They both are Army veterans, et cetera. But retired Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman, who was the whistleblower on the Ukraine scandal and impeachment, I think he's running for Senate in Florida, right?

ISRAEL: Right. Correct.

TAPPER: What do you make of that?

ISRAEL: Yes. I think he's an incredibly credible candidate. He's got name recognition. He's got a good fundraising base. I think he's going to put that race in play. Certainly has the potential for putting it in play.

TAPPER: Is Florida in play?

PONNURU: I am not so sure about that. I think that Florida has been steadily slipping out of Democratic hands for the last decade.

ISRAEL: He's going to force them to spend money.

TAPPER: He's going to force them to spend money. So you're very -- you're still the DCCC chair because you're still tactically thinking you might not win. You didn't say this. I'm saying this. Might not win the seat, but let's force Republicans to spend money. Does that really work? I mean, is that really a thing? Is that really a finite amount of money?

ISRAEL: First of all, in a limited battlefield, right, because of redistricting, you've got to expand your opportunities. It's just vital. And if the Democrats have a good candidate and a competitive race, may not be winnable, but if it looks competitive, you're forcing Republicans to play on your terms. That is vital.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up, some of the well-known names popping up in the Epstein files, their conversations with the convicted sex trafficker years, years after his hideous crimes were publicly reported. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:55:36]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. We're Paging Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay Gupta's here to answer your questions on the turf versus grass debate in sports.

Sanjay, our first question comes from Anna, who's in Liberty, Missouri. And she asks, my understanding is that artificial fields in all sports are dressed with ground tire rubber. You see some kind of particles flying up during games. Aren't rubber tires classified as a carcinogen?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this was a common sort of bucket of questions that we got. And this is, I think, a valid concern. In fact, Nick Pappas, who you may remember from the piece yesterday, he's the NFL field director. He's the guy that picks surfaces for the stadiums and for the Super Bowl, for example. I asked him specifically about this point, and I want you to hear what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: What's the concern about toxicity? When I was looking in this, they said if I touch this stuff, I should wash my hands immediately after. NICK PAPPAS, NFL FIELD DIRECTOR: From our perspective, working closely with the manufacturers, working with our own specialized individuals on the NFL, NFLPA side, we don't have any concerns over toxicity right now. There's obviously, any time you're out in the elements, there's -- you know, you're within whatever's around you. But here, whether you're inside or outside, we haven't run into any concerns with toxicity from a crumb rubber perspective or any of our natural infills or the various infills that are out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So, Jake, what he's talking about, crumb rubber. If you watch football being played on turf, you may see the black rubber sort of shoot up after someone is tackled, for example. That is crumb rubber. That comes from recycled tires. Recycled tires do contain some carcinogens, so that's where this valid concern comes from.

The point that Nick Pappas is making is saying after decades of sort of using turf, we have not seen any increase in the impact of toxicity. We've not seen people get sick or have other problems as a result of that. So, valid concern, but hasn't translated into a real problem, according to Nick.

TAPPER: Sarah from Colorado asks you, Sanjay, my daughter has seen a shift from playing soccer on mostly grass fields to almost all turf fields. How do rates of minor injury compare on the two surfaces?

GUPTA: Yes, so youth soccer, turf versus grass. I think here's the best way to frame it. There's a lot of studies that have been done on this. The American Academy of Pediatrics just released a statement on this not long ago. If you look at games played on turf versus grass, similar rates of injuries for youth soccer.

But the surprising thing was when it came to practices, there was actually more injuries occurring on grass fields versus turf. And I think that was surprising to a lot of people. The reason seems to be at the youth level, some of these fields may not be maintained as well.

So grass fields, they develop divots, they may have water pooling, they may have uneven surfaces, and that can lead to more injuries. So pretty similar on games. But for parents, they really got to pay attention to what the surface is like, even during practices.

TAPPER: Mike wants to know, Sanjay, are the types of injuries consistent across both types of fields?

GUPTA: Yes, so I will preface by saying the data on this is pretty significant. Looking back to 1972, remember, Jake, you know, the first sort of big AstroTurf was from the AstroDome. That's how AstroTurf got its name. They've been collecting data since then. Early days, the turf wasn't that good. There was a lot more injuries on turf.

Nowadays, over the last decade or so, you can see that the rates of injuries are similar. But to this question, if you zero in on body parts, you actually see more injuries to the foot and the ankle on turf. Hips and knees are about the same on grass or turf. Other injuries are more common on grass. So overall number of injuries about the same, but different body parts depending on whether you're playing on grass or turf.

TAPPER: Is our head injuries more prevalent in grass or turf?

GUPTA: Seems like more common in grass, as are dislocations, torso injuries, and upper extremity arm injuries as well.

TAPPER: Interesting. All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

GUPTA: Yes.

[17:59:53]

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, investigators say they have still not identified any suspects, as the desperate search for the mother of NBC anchor Savannah Guthrie stretches into day four. So what exactly is happening behind the scenes right now?