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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Soon, Tucson Church Holds Prayer Vigil for Nancy Guthrie; Prominent Names Attempt to Explain Their Ties to Epstein; Trump Warns Iran's Supreme Leader Should be Very Worried. Trump: We Could Use A "Softer Touch" On Immigration; Baltimore Steel Factory CEO Says Tariffs Are Helping Expansion. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired February 04, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, investigators say they have still not identified any suspects as the desperate search for the mother of NBC Anchor Savannah Guthrie stretches into day four.

[18:00:06]

So, what exactly is happening behind the scenes right now? I'm going to ask a former FBI criminal profiler in just moments.

Plus, a rare admission from President Trump suggesting his administration could use a, quote, softer touch on immigration enforcement. The president's comments coming just hours after his borders czar, Tom Homan, announced that they're immediately withdrawing 700 federal agents from Minnesota.

And our Business Leaders series is back and with a familiar face. We first met the owner of Marlin Steel in Baltimore when we launched this series last spring. So, how has this company fared after nearly ten months of Trump's tariffs? Well, we'll ask him.

The Lead tonight, a candlelight vigil is set to begin soon at church in Tucson, Arizona, as the community there prays for the safe return of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie, the mother of Today's Show Anchor Savannah Guthrie. She's been missing for four days without her life- saving medication. Nancy was first reported missing on Sunday after her family was notified that she had not attended service at her local Presbyterian Church.

The Guthrie family's deep faith is something that Savannah's been very public about, asking for prayers for her mother over the past few days. We were reminded of her own words about faith that she said here on The Lead when she came to talk to us about her book, Mostly What God Does.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, AUTHOR, MOSTLY WHAT GOD DOES: Faith doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in real lives and real circumstances and faith. You really figure out what your faith is not in times of great triumph of it, in sadness and darkness and doubt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As the investigation continues on the ground, local and federal officials are combating a host of challenges in this highly publicized search, the cactus and vegetation screening, the view of homes in her neighborhood, the critical race against time, and, of course, the influx of leads stemming from the intense media attention, including unverified ransom notes sent to several media outlets.

I want to bring in CNN's Josh Campbell. Josh?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is a point now where authorities are working, Jake, to determine the veracity of those purported ransom notes that were received by different media outlets. It's important to note in these high-profile situations, authorities are often flooded with tips, some turn out to be credible, some not so credible, and some downright sinister sometimes with people, you know, just sending in disinformation. So they're poring over that, authorities say, in order to try to determine whether this could actually be from someone who might be holding Nancy Guthrie.

We're also learning details about the timeline from her disappearance until she was reported missing. We're learning that her pacemaker, Jake, had apparently last connected with her cell phone at 2:00 A.M. on Sunday. And that's important, because as you look, there were at least 12 hours went by between her last known appearance and when she was reported missing. This could be the moment that she was actually removed from the house because we know that her cell phone was indeed left behind.

The final thing I'll note is authorities in these cases always tried to determine the victimology. Who would want to hurt someone like this? Who would want to conduct some type of abduction? Who has the means, who has the capability? Interesting, our colleague, Brian Stelter is learning that immediately after she was first noticed to be missing, those -- her loved ones, those who knew her, their initial reaction wasn't, you know, well, this has to be some kidnapping. They actually thought, Jake, could be some type of health emergency, maybe that she had been taken to a nearby hospital. That's what they were working to determine before authorities were eventually contacted.

Again, that's important because, in any case, you know, authorities wanted to determine were there known threats. And in this case, you know, if the family didn't even go there, that, you know, mentally, to think, well, this could possibly be it, that could be telling.

That doesn't give us answers about what actually happened or where she is right now. Authorities say they continue to ask the public for assistance. We know that they say that they're also finally looking at the video from inside the residence, which they're still trying to process.

And people might be wondering, well, what is taking so long? You know, these are technical challenges that they sometimes face, especially if the video is recording over itself that may not be readily available to law enforcement. We know that police are working with the company that runs those videos in order to see if they can extract that information to try to figure out what happened here, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Josh Campbell, thank you so much.

Let's break this all down with my experts, CNN Chief Law Enforcement Analyst, John Miller, and former FBI Criminal Profiler Candice DeLong.

John, the Pima County Sheriff's Department put out a statement today to clarify that they have not identified a person of interest or suspect in this case. Do you think they really haven't identified anyone or are they just not telling us everything?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think that they have people of interest, meaning people they're interested in. I think they have suspects that they're looking at because they're people that might be suspects, but that's a very -- that's normal, and Candice will tell you all about that.

[18:05:01]

But it's very different from identifying a specific individual and saying, we think this is the person. And they usually only do that if there's a compelling reason to or because they need the public's assistance in locating that person. Right now, they're -- you know, you're not a suspect until you're named as a suspect, which is usually right before you're charged. I don't think they're there yet. They're looking at a lot of things.

TAPPER: Candice, based on what we know so far, what's your take on the type of person or people that law enforcement are likely looking into right now?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, this looks to me like it was committed by people that have experienced committing other crimes. This is not what we call a kitty crime, a couple teenagers took her to see, gee, maybe we could get some money. It doesn't look like that at all. And if that were the case, I think something would have happened by now and it has not happened.

TAPPER: And, John, we now know that Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker last synced with her phone around 2:00 A.M. on the night she went missing early Sunday morning, her phone was still at the house. Does that help investigators in any way in terms of their search?

MILLER: Well, it narrows potentially the window of time from when she was dropped off, 9:30, 9:45 after dinner dropped off at home until 11:00 A.M. when she didn't arrive at church. So, it appears that that device works in proximity with the cell phone. So, once the cell phone was still at the house, but Nancy Guthrie wasn't. Those two devices stopped separating and they stopped pinging. That could give them a better idea of timing.

But it's still a large gap in time where an abductor could have traveled a great distance. One of the things we haven't really considered here is while the message has gone out to all of the people around Tucson, you know, if you see her, if you spot somebody anywhere in Arizona. You know, we remember in the Elizabeth Smart case, she ended up going from Salt Lake City to San Diego and back. This is one of those things where there's been enough time. So, everybody in the country who believes they see someone with her or her somewhere should be reporting that.

TAPPER: And, Candice, at least three media outlets reportedly have received ransom notes, ones that are not verified yet, as far as we know. What struck you about how law enforcement seems to be responding to this topic of ransom right now, which not to be harsh, is the only thing that makes any sense?

DELONG: It is the only thing that makes any sense. And, statistically, when people Nancy Guthrie's age are kidnapped, it is for financial gain. Somebody is -- the perpetrator is doing it for that reason.

In terms of all these people, first of all, it's a crime to make up a phony ransom note in a case like this. And we see this kind of behavior perpetrated by what I would call disturbed attention seekers, or sometimes shameless attention seekers. The police and the FBI have very advanced methods whereby they can determine if something is real. And, of course, the kidnappers should be able to provide something in the letter or content or attached to the letter to prove that they do in fact need to be taken seriously as the kidnapper.

TAPPER: So, John, how do you even verify a ransom note as authentic?

MILLER: So, I mean, you start off with proof of life. Okay, can you show me a picture? Can you put the victim on the phone? Can you send us a recording if you don't want to get involved with the phone for obvious reasons? If not that, you can drill down to, I'm going to send you three questions. These are questions that only the victim would know. Who was your favorite puppy dog in the fourth grade? What was the thing you had for dinner the other night? And, you know, you try to test that kidnapper who's in the middle of a money demand and say, how can you prove two things to us? One, that you're real that you are the person who has or had her, and, two, that she's still alive. And those are important tests.

TAPPER: Candice, I want to ask you about the surrounding neighborhood. CNN's Ed Lavandera drove through it at night this week, and it was just pitch black, no streetlights, houses set back far from the street, screened by vegetation and cacti. CNN also heard from one of Nancy Guthrie's neighbors last night. Take a listen to what she -- what he had to say.

[18:10:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF LAMIE, NANCY GUTHRIE'S NEIGHBOR: We were not aware that Savannah Guthrie was her daughter. I mean, just a very normal person in a community, a hello, she had a dog at one time also, when we'd walk by if she was in the front yard, just a greeting, just a normal person who lived here. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What do you make of seeing that type of neighborhood with that type of description? And also, I just have to say, my observation from that video is I originally was like, well, you know, there must be Ring cameras that are filming stuff that the, that they might have gotten evidence from. And now I think it's possible that they didn't at all just because the houses are so far -- set so far back and there's so much vegetation.

DELONG: It is quite true, that that is accurate, in addition to the fact a lack of streetlights. And I used to live in Southern Arizona, and that terrain can be with the type of vegetation that grows, very very difficult to -- for cameras to see through it or to see a person moving. It is not easy at all.

TAPPER: Yes.

DELONG: And there is one thing I'd like to add about kidnapping of elderly people, especially people over 80. In the vast majority of cases, the offender is known to the victim.

TAPPER: Candice DeLong and John Miller, thank you so much. And anyone, again, with information related to the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, including video, photos, anything, you could submit a tip by dialing 1-800-CALL-FBI, that's 1-800-CALL-FBI, or you can submit a tip online to local authorities at 88crime.org. That's 88 crime.org. And, once again, we here at The Lead are sending our love and our prayers and our thoughts and our hope for a speedy and peaceful and satisfactory resolution to Savannah and her family.

Microsoft Co-Founder Bill Gates answering questions today about his connections to Jeffrey Epstein after the latest release of Epstein Files contained emails between the two men. Hear Bill Gates' comments next.

Plus, the man accused of trying to assassinate Donald Trump in 2024 was back in court today to officially learn his prison sentence. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead today, the man convicted of trying to assassinate President Trump in September 2024 was sentenced to life in prison. Ryan Routh set up a sniper's nest on the edge of Trump's West Palm Beach golf course in Florida, but was thankfully thwarted by Secret Service agents. Routh was convicted of five counts back in September after notably attempting to represent himself in trial and trying to stab himself in the neck after the verdict was announced.

Also in our Law and Justice Lead today, the newly released Epstein files revealing the dead pedophile's wide reaching global network of the rich and powerful. Remember, in August, 2006, Palm Beach Police went public with their investigation and said that Epstein had committed unlawful sex acts with and lewd and lascivious molestation of five underage girls, that was August, 2006. He would later be convicted on two counts of solicitation of prostitution, one involving a minor.

Yet regardless, these individuals I'm about to tell you about associated with Epstein years after those facts were well known, for instance, Microsoft co-Founder Bill Gates, one of the most prominent names in the documents. He and Epstein had a long and well-documented relationship even before this latest document release. This is what Gates told Australia's 9 News about his relationship with Epstein earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL GATES, CO-FOUNDER, MICROSOFT: It's factually true that I was only at dinners. You know, I never went to the island, I never met any women. And so, you know, the more that comes out, the more clear it'll be that although the time was a mistake, it had nothing to do with that kind of behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In a newly revealed email from 2013, Virgin Group Founder Richard Branson told Epstein he'd be happy to meet with him with this stipulation, quote, as long as you bring your harem. In another exchange, Branson counseled Epstein to get Bill Gates to vouch for him after Epstein was required to register as a sex offender. A Virgin spokesperson tells CNN that the, quote, harem referred to three adult women, and that Branson was simply repeating the term after it was originally used by Epstein. They also explained that Epstein framed his legal troubles to Branson as a consensual relationship with someone who was nearly 18, and that he would not have been involved with the sex offender if he knew all the facts.

Anti-aging physician, a newly made CBS News contributor, Peter Attia's chummy relationship with Epstein has now come to light in addition to one fairly crude comment about the caloric intake of female genitalia. There is a 2015 email in which Attia wrote, the biggest problem with becoming friends with you, the life you lead is so outrageous, and yet I can't tell a soul, unquote.

And in exchange, one year later, Attia mentioned his desire to travel to LSJ. That's likely a reference to Little St. James, Epstein Island. Attia released a statement denying criminal behavior and writing, quote, I was never on his plane, never on his island, and never present at any sex parties. I apologize and regret putting myself in a position where emails, some of them embarrassing, tasteless and indefensible, are now public, unquote. What Attia fails to mention is that the email correspondence reveals he did want to visit Epstein at his New Mexico ranch in 2015, but the timing didn't work out.

CBS News has yet to make any comment about the viral emails from their new contributor. But 60 Minutes has pulled a scheduled re-airing of a segment featuring Attia before the emails had been made public.

As of today, we understand former Prince Andrew has officially moved out of his longtime home, the Royal Lodge.

[18:15:03]

He was ordered out of the sprawling 30-room estate after his brother, the king, King Charles, cast him out of the monarchy over his ties to Epstein. In these latest files, three undated photos appear to show the former prince kneeling over what appears to be a woman or possibly girl who was lying fully clothed on the floor, in the 2010 email exchange with Epstein, again, that's after all the accusations had been made public. Then Prince Andrews says he would be delighted to meet a woman Epstein described to him as a 26-year-old Russian, who is beautiful and trustworthy.

The royal family has not issued a statement on these latest revelations, but Andrew's younger brother, Prince Edward, said this about the controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRINCE EDWARD: It's all really important always to remember the victims and who are the victims in all this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.

PRINCE EDWARD: A lot of victims in this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Also important to remember the victimizers. There are a lot of victims.

One point of clarity when it comes to the relationship between Bill Gates and Epstein, some of the emails in the latest batch were drafts in Epstein's email folder that were never actually sent to Bill Gates.

A new warning from President Trump today as he says, Iran's supreme leaders should be very worried. Why?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, in an NBC News interview earlier today, President Trump warned Iran's supreme leader that he should be very worried amid rising tensions with the U.S. A short time ago, Iran's foreign minister said that nuclear talks between the U.S. and Iran will go ahead on Friday.

CNN National Security Analyst Alex Plitsas joins us now. Alex, thanks so much for being here. Good to have you back on the show, this time as a CNN contributor.

So, earlier today, the talks appeared to be on shaky ground as the two sides worked out terms. Iran wanted negotiations to be limited to just the country's nuclear program, but the U.S. wanted to also discuss Iran's ballistic missiles, their sponsorship of terrorist organizations across the region, and how they are treating and killing their own people.

So, is that not off the table? What are your sources telling you about these negotiations?

ALEX PLITSAS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, what I'm hearing is from Iranian officials, they want to limit this specifically to the nuclear program. They see the ballistic missiles as their only means of viable deterrence to prevent another conflict with Israel. The Iranians believe that they didn't actually lose the 12-day war, from what I'm hearing from a lot of officials, and that is that the ballistic missiles prevented them from having a complete surrender at this point, and instead ended with a conditional ceasefire.

So, they don't want to talk about that for that reason, and the same thing with the proxies, and that's the reason that they didn't want regional officials in the room because it would've trended in that direction. So, they want to keep it focused on just the nuclear file, but that's very typical. And the type of negotiations they've dealt with for years, they've always wanted to limit it to the nuclear file, as they'll call it, and then also concessions on sanctions. But the U.S. has made it clear in Israel that that's not going to be acceptable this time.

TAPPER: We had the former chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Mike McCaul, on earlier and we asked him about whether or not Trump encouraging the protesters in the street was a good idea, a bad idea, because, you know, they're still killing protesters in the street and Trump hasn't done anything. I'm not saying he should, but what's your take on this? I mean, McCaul's take, just to paraphrase him, unless I misunderstood him, was, basically, look, there's nothing really that we could do, there isn't an apparatus ready to take -- you know, to stage a coup against the regime.

PLITSAS: So, the idea that the U.S. could support some sort of ground element is kind of what would be necessary in order to overthrow the country if that's in fact what was going to happen. And, unfortunately, there hasn't been a political opposition, as you know. But there could be between 30,000, and I'm hearing from Israeli and even some U.S. officials that those reports could be as high as a hundred thousand, in some cases. Bodies are being held in storage locations potentially be dragged out in the event of a conflict. The Iranians really inflicted a significant number of casualties and they've been trying to hide it, which is why the internet is still off.

TAPPER: Are you saying a hundred thousand dead? Is it --

PLITSAS: Potentially between dead and wounded, it could be as many in detentions as up to a hundred thousand at this point.

TAPPER: Holy crap.

Meanwhile, let's turn to Russia's war on Ukraine, because today, U.S., Ukrainian and Russian negotiators met for the second round of peace talks as Russia continues to ramp up its attacks, especially against the grid, the electrical grid in the freezing winter in Ukraine. Ukraine's chief negotiator says, talks were substantive and productive, but security guarantees for Ukraine are made a key issue. What are you hearing?

PLITSAS: So, I'm hearing the same. So, the security guarantees are required for a few reasons, not least of which is that the Ukrainians have been left to hang out to dry, Minsk twice, the Budapest memorandum. And so the Russians want territorial concessions, particularly in an area, the Donbas in Eastern Ukraine called Donetsk, which the Ukrainians have been defending since 2014. Without getting too far into it, there's essentially a piece of land there that if the Russians were able to get their hands on, would give them a straight shot at Kyiv for a future military operation.

So, in order for the Ukrainians even to consider territorial concessions, they need security guarantees, so President Zelenskyy would be able to tell his people, look, this is not going to happen again. And territorial concessions are an emotional issue, but effectively that's the Ukrainians to decide. So, if the Russians and the Ukrainians, the U.S. and the E.U. can come to an agreement on the security guarantee, that'll help facilitate any territorial concessions and open the door for the final pieces of negotiations that the Russians are looking for.

TAPPER: Quickly, if you could, there was talk several months ago about the French and the British being willing to put troops in Ukraine as some sort of security guarantee. Is that still on the table?

PLITSAS: The way it was phrased to me today in speaking to officials who were familiar with the discussions that were part of the talks is that the security guarantees are, quote, rock solid. So, there would be no, there would be no concerns from the Ukrainians afterwards that they wouldn't have backup and that this wouldn't happen again. It's a question of the Russians acquiescing to that. And so at the end, it becomes a question, will the Russians accept that for territorial concessions and potentially economic sweeteners to end the war now, or this is going to drag out. Because the last point that was made between December of 2025 and January of 2026, the Russians lost as many troops in Ukraine as the U.S. lost in the Vietnam War in totality.

[18:30:01]

TAPPER: Oh my goodness. All right, well, let's hope for peace all over the Middle East and Russia, Ukraine.

Thanks so much, Alex. It's always good to have you here.

The mayor of Minneapolis now responding after President Trump admitted that his administration could use a, quote, softer touch on immigration enforcement tactics. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our National Lead, 700 Department of Homeland Security personnel are leaving Minneapolis, but 2,000 will remain in that city. President Trump told NBC News in an interview earlier today what he learned from his administration's immigration enforcement in the city.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a softer touch, but you still have to be tough. These are criminals. We're dealing with really hard criminals. But, look, I've called the people, I've called the governor, I've called the mayor, spoke to them, had great conversations with them, and then I see them ranting and raving out there literally as though a call wasn't made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey, reacting just a short time ago on CNN.

[18:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JACOB FREY (D-MINNEAPOLIS, MN): He is right that a softer touch has been required, the drawdown of both federal agents as well as the implementation of body cameras is obviously a step in the right direction. That being said, the continued presence of 2,000 federal agents in a city that only has 600 police officers is still not de- escalation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Meanwhile, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem spent the day near the U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona, touting the president's immigration policies.

Joining us now is the former mayor of Phoenix, Arizona, Democratic Congressman Greg Stanton of the State of Arizona. So, Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

What's your reaction to Trump suggesting his administration could use a softer touch on immigration enforcement?

REP. GREG STANTON (D-AZ): It's not a softer touch it. They need to be much smarter about it. Look, Americans across the board, Republicans and Democrats, agree, violent criminals need to be deported if they're in the country in an undocumented fashion. But this mass deportation based on these quotas, in which even American citizens are being detained and even deported on occasion, including veterans of our military are being deported, Americans are turning against this. They put in these untrained agents on the street, roving patrols with deadly weapons, it's resulted in the deaths of two of our fellow citizens. Americans across the board are pissed off about what's happening, not just in Minneapolis but across our country with this mass deportation policy.

TAPPER: Yesterday, your Democratic colleague, Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury of neighboring New Mexico, she called on ICE to be defunded and dismantled. Do you agree? STANTON: Well, no. What we are calling for in this budget fight in Congress is that there be accountability and transparency by ICE. The masks have to come off. I was a big city mayor. We had highly trained police officers. They didn't go around wearing masks when they were doing their duty, including arresting people. The body cameras have to be on every single one of those agents and on when they're interacting with people that they are detaining.

They also need judicial warrants. Due process is critical. We are Americans. We demand due process. So, we need that as well. And, of course, they need to stop detaining and deporting our fellow American citizens. This can't be a secret police. We're America. They've got to do better.

TAPPER: So, you know what the Trump administration says about why ICE officials and Customs and Border Patrol officials wear the masks, and today in your home state, DHS Secretary Noem accused the left and Democrats of harassing and doxing DHS personnel. She also said this about Democrats take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: And they try to say that enforcing our immigration laws and arresting and deporting illegal criminals and violent criminals is inhumane. Well, what about the victims of that illegal crimes? What about the flow of drugs that were coming over our border and killing our next generation of Americans? What about the angel families who lost someone that they dearly love?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's your response?

STANTON: How the hell does she still have a job? She needs to be fired today. And if not, we need to impeach her. Because of her incompetence, she also oversees FEMA. There was a horrific flood many months ago in Texas that killed over a hundred people, including many young girls at that camp. Her inaction, direct inaction, not getting Urban Search and Rescue there on time, led to the deaths of our fellow citizens in Texas. Her inaction now because of this policy of she has to personally approve a hundred thousand dollars contract, $17 billion of FEMA funds for cities across the United States of America are not getting those people to help them recover from deadly actions. That's on top of leading this force, which is putting untrained agents on America streets resulting to the death of our fellow Americans in Minneapolis.

Kristi Noem has no basis to talk about this. She needs to be fired and fired now for the safety of our fellow Americans.

TAPPER: So, your district includes parts of Phoenix. It's a little less than a two-hour drive from Tucson, which is where Today Show Anchor Savannah Guthrie's 84-year-old mother, Nancy, went missing over the weekend. Is there anything you can tell us about federal involvement in that investigation, including the FBI? Well, I know I talked to the mayor of Tucson, who's a close friend of mine. She is very satisfied with the work the task force has put together. It is federal, state, county, the sheriff's department and local Tucson Police. They said they're putting everyone on it.

Look, we know Savannah Guthrie, who's a pride and joy of Arizona. We're so proud of what she's done with her amazing career in journalism. We know she's a woman of faith. We know her mom is a woman of faith. So, what we're doing now is providing all the support we can for law enforcement to solve this crime and praying for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie.

All right, Democratic Congressman Greg Stanton of Arizona, thank you so much.

[18:40:01]

And I know I speak for my staff when I say we're joining you in his prayers.

Absolutely devastating cuts at The Washington Post today as Jeff Bezos' company lays off one-third of its employees, a move that one former employee says is about Bezos, quote, trying to survive. Donald Trump.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, massive layoffs today at The Washington Post. The paper let go of nearly one-third of its newspaper staff, affecting almost every corner of the newsroom, including sports, books, the Metro Desk, foreign news coverage. Sources tell CNN that employees were told to stay home while notice this went out today. Billionaire Jeff Bezos, who owns The Washington Post, has not commented on the cutbacks.

My panel joins me now. By the way. I just checked and Jeff Bezos' net worth as of today is $261 billion. That's a billion with a B, just FYI.

Ramesh, you're a contributing columnist for The Washington Post. This is heartbreaking. What do you make of it all?

RAMESH PONNURU, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I'm sorry to see so many people laid off. That's never a happy story. You feel bad for the people involved, but this is a donor-supported publication and that's something that I think people have not really internalized.

[18:45:04]

A lot of people have a lot of ideas for how Bezos should spend his money, but they're apparently not Bezos' ideas for how he should spend his money. And a lot of these things I keep hearing people saying things like, oh, he's trying to placate Trump. And maybe in some respects he is.

But I don't think Trump had a problem with the sports section of "The Washington Post".

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Right.

PONNURU: I think there are some business decisions of a kind that are being made at a lot of different newspapers, because the industry as a whole is having trouble.

TAPPER: Kate Bedingfield, you used to be the communications director for Joe Biden's White House. When one of America's best known, most respected newspaper loses a third of its staff, what's your reaction? What does that mean for politics and accountability?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, well, it's a huge loss. I mean, "The Washington Post" is an institution that employed a lot of journalists who certainly held our administration to task. And that is their role and their responsibility.

So the loss in an environment where increasingly people don't agree on facts and where the idea that there should be a foundational -- you know, agreement on what is and isn't true is becoming less and less meaningful losing these, losing this voice is extremely its extremely damaging.

But I think, I mean, to Ramesh's point, I mean, I think there are kind of two pieces here. There's, you know, I would argue that the Bezos decision to withhold the endorsement of -- from Kamala Harris probably alienated a section of --

TAPPER: Well, they lost lots of subscribers.

BEDINGFIELD: Right. Alienated loyal Washington post readers in an attempt to lure a group of people who are probably not going to be all that interested in reading "The Washington Post" for many cultural reasons we could talk about.

But then secondly, to Ramesh's other point, I mean, certainly there are business decisions, and I think the rise of A.I. and the impact that A.I. has on search results, I mean, you heard if you looked at what Matt Murray said today, he talked a lot about how their search results are down and the fact that A.I. drives people to search results that aren't sourced is a problem for "The Washington Post" and outlets all across the country. These are challenges that that all outlets are dealing with.

PONNURU: And A.I. cannibalizes the news, right?

BEDINGFIELD: Yeah.

PONNURU: A.I. trains on media and then undercuts the economic basis for the media.

TAPPER: Yeah. President Trump just sat down for an interview with NBC News. He was asked about the two fatal shootings, shootings of U.S. citizens at the hands of immigration enforcement agents in Minneapolis. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERVIEWER: You mentioned Renee Good and not -- and Alex Pretti not being angels. Do you think any of that justified what happened to them, though?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I don't. It should have not happened. It was a very sad -- to me, it was a very sad incident, two incidents. And, you know, they mentioned the one now, they don't mention the other.

Well, I think they were both sad and you know, who feels worse about it than anybody? The people of ICE.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Ramesh?

PONNURU: Well, I would have to say that President Trump is actually speaking there more responsibly than several members of his administration did in the immediate aftermath of those shootings, including, notably, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. You don't hear the same rhetoric about their domestic terrorists, et cetera, et cetera.

But there's also no accountability for the people who spread smears about the people that the government had just killed.

TAPPER: Yeah. And earlier today, "The Daily Mail" posted an interview with the Vice President J.D. Vance, in which he was challenged about the fact that he had retweeted an accusation from Stephen Miller that Alex Pretti was an assassin --

PONNURU: Yeah.

TAPPER: -- which is not true.

PONNURU: Yeah.

TAPPER: It wasn't true then. It's not true now. And Vance would not apologize for it.

BEDINGFIELD: Yeah, he clearly -- he clearly believes that this kind of incredibly hard line is going to be helpful to him as he thinks about post-Trump. I think this is where his interest in Donald Trump's politically may diverge. Trump is looking at the numbers. He's seeing, the reaction from people across the country. He's saying, we got to tone down the rhetoric.

J.D. Vance is thinking ahead to a 2028 primary in which he has to win over some of the hardest, hardest core voices in the MAGA coalition. So that -- I think that's the divide we're looking at here.

TAPPER: We have another clip from the NBC News interview. Here is Tom Llamas asking President Trump about the FBI search at the elections office in Fulton County, Georgia. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) INTERVIEWER: Why is Tulsi Gabbard there?

TRUMP: I don't know, but, you know, a lot of the cheating comes from -- it's international cheating. You have people, they say, from China trying to put --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Let me ask you, do you think -- do you think China tries to influence our election?

INTERVIEWER: We know that foreign governments try to influence a lot of things in this country.

TRUMP: She's foreign government.

INTERVIEWER: But she's tweeted out some theories about Italians and satellites. I mean, do you believe that stuff?

TRUMP: No, no, no, I didn't tweet. I sometimes will retruth.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

TRUMP: I'll retruth. But let me ask you this. If China or any of these countries are involved in our elections, that would bring her into it. And everybody knows that Russia, they talked about Russia, turned out to be a hoax. It was Hunter Biden. It wasn't Russia.

Look, we have to have honest elections. There should be nothing wrong with the fact that they went in, got ballots from a while ago.

[18:50:03]

And they're going to look at them, and now they're going to find out the true winner of that state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Ramesh?

PONNURU: We know the true winner of Georgia in the election that was held five and a half years ago. And it was Joe Biden. We may dislike that fact. We may like that fact, but it has been well attested and proven.

Claims to the contrary have been debunked time and time again. President Trump's track record on this is of somebody who keeps repeating things that have no basis, that are complete fantasies, including all of this stuff about foreign governments. Although the identity of the foreign governments changed with each story.

BEDINGFIELD: He also lost this fight in the courts repeatedly, and it is dangerous to continue to hammer on this and to continue to undermine people's sense of faith in the -- in the electoral system in the United States. It's also, look, I -- you know, I think this is bad politics for him, too. He's got -- he's got his core MAGA base that's always going to believe he won in 2020. The rest of the country saying, what are you doing for me now?

TAPPER: Yeah. And just as one final note on this, the idea that a Republican governor, Republican secretary of state, Republican lieutenant governor wouldn't have loved to have delivered evidence of an election being stolen to him is crazy. Of course, if there was evidence, they would have brought it.

BEDINGFIELD: Of course.

TAPPER: They want to appease Trump. They want to please Trump.

Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Our "Business Leaders" series is back tonight. We're revisiting one of the very first companies we met when we started the series last April. How have Trump's tariffs impacted that company since then? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:55:36]

TAPPER: And our money lead, it's time for our "Business Leaders" series, where we talk to small business owners coast to coast about the impact of President Trump's tariffs that he pledged on the campaign trail throughout this past year would bring manufacturing jobs back to America.

So, let's check back with the very first factory owner we visited, the very first factory we visited to talk about these tariffs with the owner, Drew Greenblatt, the CEO of Marlin Steel. Just up by 95, in Baltimore, Maryland, joins me now.

Drew, thanks so much.

You were enthusiastic about the potential of the tariffs when they were announced and business was going well the last time we checked in with you. How are things now? You feel still the same? Still feel the same way

DREW GREENBLATT, CEO, MARLIN STEEL: Well, the numbers are in. We had our best year ever in 2025, so we are so excited about 2026. It's going to be even better in 2026.

We just bought the most expensive tool we've ever bought. It's a laser punch. It's going to be installed in this factory in about two months. We can't wait for it to come. Its going to make our team go ten times faster than they're currently going.

They're moaning in China. They're going to be sad in Mexico because we're going to be building here in America. We're going to be buying a lot of American steel, and were going to be able to export to many more countries. We're going to be much more competitive. So, we're leaning in. We bought another 3D bender from our vendor in

Chicago, and we've also bought a couple forklift trucks, and we've also bought a couple more press brakes. So were very enthusiastic about the future. Times are going to be good.

TAPPER: So it sounds like you're adding a lot of new equipment to your factory, which is fantastic. Have you been able to add new jobs? Have you been able to grow your business?

GREENBLATT: Absolutely. We're hiring people. We're hiring locally in our factory in Indiana, in our factory in Michigan, and here in this factory in Baltimore City. We're paying great wages. We have offer great health insurance, manufacturing jobs are extraordinary jobs. This is how we pull people up from poverty and into the middle class.

TAPPER: Have you had to raise prices at all?

GREENBLATT: So, we have raised prices because steel costs have pushed up over the year. But I think we're now leveling off.

We're now getting jobs that we never, ever would have had an opportunity to take a look at, because all of a sudden, people are recalibrating. They're saying, you know, really, should I buy from China? Should I buy from Mexico? Should I buy from Canada? Should I buy from Europe?

No, let's buy in America because all of a sudden, the prices are more level. We're getting opportunities we never had. And because of that, we're hiring people and we're buying equipment. We're leaning in. 2026 is going to be the best year ever, and it's going to even beat our 2025, which was our best year ever.

TAPPER: So, as you know, not every factory is thriving right now. And we've spoken to a lot of people who do not feel about the tariffs the way that you do. It depends on the size, the industry. Do you have any advice for those business owners about how to navigate the system to their advantage?

GREENBLATT: Well, if you're making it in America, you don't have tariffs. If -- you don't have to deal with customs duties, you don't have to wait for the boat to come across the ocean. You're enriching your local community.

So I implore people to buy American. I implore people to build your factories in America. You don't have the drama of buying from overseas. You don't have them stealing intellectual property from overseas. The American worker needs opportunities.

Build in America. It's good for your community. It's good for the locals. I think it's an astute policy for local companies and local governments to encourage building in the USA.

TAPPER: Drew Greenblatt, CEO of Marlin Steel in Baltimore, Maryland. Thanks so much.

GREENBLATT: Thank you. TAPPER: And our world lead, a 13-year-old boy credited with saving

the lives of his mother and brother and sister, who were swept out to sea. The family was paddle-boarding and kayaking in Australia when they got stuck in rough waters. Austin swam two and a half miles to shore for help, where he was able to alert authorities who safely returned the family to shore.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, X, and on the TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and on Instagram @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can watch the show on the CNN app.

Our good friend "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.