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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pentagon Says 140 Troops Wounded In Operation Epic Fury; Iran Has Started Laying Mines In The Strait Of Hormuz; Iran's New Leader Nowhere To Be Seen; DOJ Official Ed Martin Accused Of Ethics Violations; DOJ Leans On Prosecutors In Probe Of Former CIA John Brennan; Some Members Of Iranian Women's Soccer Team Seek Asylum As Most Of Squad Leaves Australia; WH Rips Mamdani For Hosting Mahmoud Khalil At Gracie Mansion; New Children's Book By CNN's Rene Marsh Explores Navigating Change. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 10, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:23]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks to my panel. Really appreciate you being here. Thanks to you at home for watching as well. But of course, don't go anywhere because Jake Tapper is still standing by for The Lead. Hi, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. Thanks so much. We'll look for more tomorrow in The Arena.

HUNT: See you tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

TAPPER: And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We start with breaking news in our World Lead, the war in Iran. The Pentagon confirming that approximately 140 U.S. service members have been wounded since the start of the U.S. war on Iran. Eight of them have been seriously wounded, we're told, and that's in addition, of course, to the seven U.S. service members who have been killed.

We should note that the Trump administration did not proactively announce this sad news. Reporters have been asking for a while to find out about the WIA, wounded in action. We only found out the number after Reuters reported the number of wounded from sources. Then the White House was asked about the Reuters report. The White House deferred to the Pentagon and only then did the Pentagon acknowledge these numbers.

All of these injuries and deaths coming in a matter of 11 days in a war that as of now has no clear timeline or end date. Yesterday, before markets closed, President Trump said the war could be over soon and was very complete. Then he walked it back in a news conference after markets closed.

Today, other Trump administration officials are also reluctant to give a clear timeline. Here's White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The U.S. military's initial timeline was about four to six weeks to achieve the full objectives of Operation Epic Fury. But ultimately the operations will end when the commander-in-chief determines the military objectives have been met, fully realized, and that Iran is in a position of complete and unconditional surrender whether they say it or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Whether they say it or not, here's Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The president has set a very specific mission to accomplish, and our job is to unrelentingly deliver that. He gets to control the throttle. He's the one deciding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Speaking of throttling, Iran continues to throttle the flow of oil tanker traffic in the Strait of Hormuz, which continues to result in the spike of oil prices around the world. Two U.S. intelligence sources now tell CNN Iran has begun laying mines in the Strait of Hormuz. The president saying moments ago on Truth Social quote, I am pleased to report that within the last few hours we have hit and completely destroyed 10 inactive mine laying boats and or ships with more to follow.

Earlier today, Energy Secretary Chris Wright posted, then quickly deleted a post on social media saying that an oil tanker received a naval escort through the Strait of Hormuz. Yet that did not actually happen, hence the deletion.

Today the White House was forced to confirm that no oil tanker has received a naval escort.

On State of the Union Sunday, the Energy Secretary also told me that a ship had made it through, though he did not specify whether there had been a naval escort.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WRIGHT, ENERGY SECRETARY: A large tanker went through the Gulf about 24 hours ago through the Straits of Hormuz. So we're still focused right now on continuing to attrit their missile and drone capability to reduce their ability to disrupt traffic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Today the latest White House line on oil is that the Iran war will actually lower gas prices in the long term. Let's go live to CNN's Fred Pleitgen. He's on ground in northern Iran. CNN is operating Iran only with the permission of the Iranian government, as is required by local regulations. CNN maintains full editorial control over what we report. The Iranian government does not review, approve or preview CNN's reporting prior to publication or broadcast. We are there, Fred is there to show you what's happening and provide a glimpse into how the U.S. campaign is being carried out.

Fred, Tehran endured heavy bombardment last night. You witnessed some of it.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONENT: Yes, I certainly did. Last night we witnessed a lot of bombardment in Tehran, especially in the east of Tehran and also in the south around Mehrabad Airport and certainly the building that were in there, Tehran got shaken on various occasions as were hunkering down in there.

And then today throughout the course of the day, of course it is that day where the Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said the heaviest bombardment would happen. And as were going downtown in eastern Tehran, we were actually at a site that had been bombed about a day before, maybe about 12 hours before that. And as were on the ground there, we heard outgoing anti-aircraft fire in that part of town.

And then as we were getting out of there as fast as possible, we did hear what we thought was a thud or an explosion that might have been taking place. We also heard fighter jets would appear to be fighter jets overhead.

[17:05:03]

So certainly you could feel and you could hear today in Tehran that there was definitely a very kinetic campaign going on there. Jake.

TAPPER: Fred, it's been about 48 hours since Iran's Council of Elders anointed Mojtaba Khamenei as Iran's new supreme leader. What have we learned about how the new ayatollah might approach leading Iran through this war?

PLEITGEN: Well, so far we've heard very little from Ayatollah Mojtaba Khamenei. But one of the things that I think is very important about all of that is that what the power structure there is trying to show, the power structure here is trying to show is that it is still very much intact and especially that link between the supreme leader's office, between the office and the supreme leader and the military Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, that link is very much intact and that therefore the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps are going to carry out, as they put it, their duties, which obviously includes ballistic missile launches, which includes drone launches, but includes also everything that you're seeing in the Strait of Hormuz as well.

And I think one thing that we've seen since the election of Mojtaba Khamenei is that you have seen more hardline politicians really take the reins and also go out with public messaging. And a lot of that actually does pertain to what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz, where you have senior politicians going out and saying that the Strait of Hormuz is still closed. And just a couple of minutes ago, I was actually looking Iranian

politicians also tend to post. And the head of Iran's parliament, Ms. Ghalibaf -- Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf, he actually reacted to the United States alleging that a U.S. warship had escorted a tanker to the Strait of Hormuz. He said maybe that happened, but only on PlayStation. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Iran, thank you so much.

Now to the latest on the oil situation. We're going to go to CNN's Nic Robertson, who's in Salmia, Kuwait, which sits on the Strait of Hormuz. Nic, after two U.S. intelligence sour forces told CNN that Iran has begun laying mines in the Strait of Hormuz. President Trump weighed in twice. Tell us more about what he said and how this go -- this oil impasse is impacting the global economy.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. The president took to Truth Social to send another message, yet another message to the Iranian leadership. And I'm going to read it to you, Jake. This is what he said. If Iran has put any mines in the Hormuz Strait, and we have no reports of them doing so, we want them to remove them immediately. If for any reason mines were placed, is heavily caveating this here. If for any reason mines were placed.

So he's not even confirming that they actually have or have not. But if they have and they are not removed forthwith, the military consequences to Iran will be at a level never seen before. If, on the other hand, they remove what may have been placed, it will be a giant step in the right direction. President Donald J. Trump.

Clearly, messaging the Iranians to pull out the mines that they may have put that, clearly not saying that they definitively have put them there. I think it goes beyond the Navy and the sinking of the Navy and putting the navy out of commission, as President Trump and Secretary of Defense Secretary of War Pete Hegseth have said, because Iran operates from small sort of fake fishing boats, and it's done it in the past quite simply by sticking limpet mines, magnetic mines, to the sides of oil tankers and blowing them up.

Standing here in Kuwait right now, Iran literally 50 miles across the water there, and I can see ship lights out at sea. Earlier on, ships in that area were oil tankers waiting to go through the Strait of Hormuz. They can't go down the Persian Gulf right now because they can't get out. So that's why Kuwait here has had to dial back its oil production, dial back its refining production.

And today, Kuwait, we're told, just found out five drones, Iranian drones, fired into a fight into Kuwait's direction. Four intercepted, one fell in open area. Jake.

TAPPER: Nic Robertson in Kuwait, thanks so much. Let's discuss all this with Republican Congressman Michael Baumgartner of Washington State. He sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thanks for joining us.

So, first of all, let's just start with the news of the day. What is your response to the Pentagon acknowledging that 140 U.S. service members have been wounded in action so far in this war?

REP. MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER (R-WA): Well, my heart goes out to our brave men and service women that are defending us. You know, Iran has been killing Americans for nearly 50 years. This is a very serious issue. And, you know, it's no surprise as tragic it is that we are taking some casualties.

TAPPER: The White House today was asked again about the likelihood of President Trump sending boots on the ground in Iran. There's talk of whether or not some would go to secure nuclear material or the like. Take a listen.

[17:10:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: As for boots on the ground, the president has talked about this repeatedly, wisely. He does not rule options out as commander-in- chief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Would you support the President if he decides to send in boots on the ground in Iran?

BAUMGARTNER: Well, certainly. If there's any nuclear material out there, we need to do whatever we can to get it. And I think it's wise for the President to keep all options open. You know, there is a potential negotiation here with the Iranian regime. We want to have as much force threat as we can as they look at the situation. So I think it's appropriate for commander-in-chief not to take any options off the table.

TAPPER: President Trump, Defense Secretary Hegseth, Speaker Johnson and other Republicans insist that U.S. military action in Iran is going to be limited in scope and short term. There are analysts out there who say their words do not necessarily match up with the action on the ground. Are you confident that this is just going to be a short term mission and there is a clear exit strategy?

BAUMGARTNER: What I am confident of is that the American people are much safer than they were two weeks ago because this Iranian terrible regime that has been killing Americans for more than 50 or for nearly 50 years now has much less ballistic missile capability and much reduced proxy terrorist forces.

And so, you know, President Trump is someone that did what no one thought could be done in the Middle East, which was to change the paradigm. You know, when I dealt with Iranians nearly 20 years ago when I was with the State Department in Iraq, I watched as they killed nearly 600 of our countrymen. And it almost killed me on a couple occasions. And I never thought someone like President Trump would take out Iranian terrorist leader Qasem Soleimani, do things like the Abraham Accords.

And so I have a lot of confidence in President Trump, Secretary Rubio, Chairman of the Joint Chief Kaine in dealing with this issue. And I know we're safer today than were two weeks ago. I think this thing is still early. In my own view, I would say that we're ahead at the end of the first quarter and that there's some game to play here. But it's something that I think we are winning and I think we will prevail.

TAPPER: So it seems to me that the mission is not regime change. I mean, Khamenei has been killed, although his son has replaced him. And I don't think the political or policy changes are existing at all. I mean, they seem to be pretty much cut from the same cloth.

It seems like the mission is destroy the Iranian navy, destroy Iranian missiles, destroy Iranian nuclear capability and then whatever happens after that, as long as they can't shoot missiles at our allies or us and don't have a nuclear weapons program, we're just going to leave it at that. Is that your impression as well?

BAUMGARTNER: Well, we're certainly taking away the capability for them to harm us. What we'd also like to do is to take away the willingness or the intent to do. You know, Venezuela presents one paradigm where their dictator was removed and we see a change in behavior coercively from their new leadership.

I have more skepticism about the mullahs that run Iran, whether we can get them to the point that will they remove the intent to do us harm. But I think the president is doing the right thing, is taking away that immediate threat and then we'll have optionality as we move forward.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Michael Baumgartner of Washington State, thanks for joining us today. It has been days now since Iran named its next supreme leader, yet still no public statements from that supreme leader. Why that might be. That's next.

And later, New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani drawing some outrage from some quarters over a photo he posted of a recently invited dinner guest.

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TAPPER: Continuing with our World Lead in something of a missing person mystery. Where is Iran's new supreme leader? Two days have gone by since Mojtaba Khamenei's elevation was announced, his selection by the 88 individuals in Iran. Yet he is nowhere to be seen. So far, no public appearances, no pictures, no written statements. Some of it probably he doesn't want to be killed.

But anyway, let's explore what's going on. Inside Iran was CNN global affairs analyst Karim Sadjadpour. He has an extensive background in Iranian and U.S. foreign policy.

Does Mojtaba Khamenei's complete absence from a public image in any way? I mean, like, I understand you don't want to announce where you're going to be at a certain time or somebody might kill you. But I mean, an image, a video, does that surprise you? KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It doesn't for the

reason you said, which is that he has an Israeli bullseye on his back.

TAPPER: Yes.

SADJADPOUR: And so his goal right now is not to govern, it's to stay alive. And we also know that the missile attack that killed his father, Ayatollah Khamenei, killed his wife and killed his mother. He wasn't in an adjacent room, so he was likely injured in that attack. So we don't know what is the state of his health either.

TAPPER: Do you think he's probably injured? There are reports out there saying that he's injured.

SADJADPOUR: I was told by a source in Tehran that he was injured, that it's not life threatening, but he has the combination of, you know, fearing for his life, being injured and, you know, he's simultaneously fighting three wars against America, Israel and much of his own population.

TAPPER: Yes. And not to mention the Gulf states, the Sunni Arab states. Iran still appears quite capable of launching attacks on all of its neighbors, disrupting oil shipments through the Persian Gulf. In light of that, I want to get your take on something that Secretary of Defense Hegseth said about Iran's leadership earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: The mullahs are desperate and scrambling like the terrorist cowards they are. They fire missiles from schools and hospitals, deliberately targeting innocents because they know their military is being systematically degraded and annihilated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's your reaction?

SADJADPOUR: Well, there's no doubt this is a malign, brutal regime. We're in the situation we are now because Iran killed as many as 30,000 of its own people last January. But I think the disadvantage that democracies have when they're fighting against dictatorships is that in democracies, public opinion matters.

[17:20:05]

And so when President Trump sees the polling for this war is very low, perhaps three out of four Americans oppose it, that's meaningful to him. For brutal dictatorships, whether that's Putin's Russia or the Islamic Republic of Iran, they have contempt for public opinion. And so they're willing to do a lot of dastardly things, subject their population to enormous hardship rather than compromise and change their character.

TAPPER: Over the weekend, you told CNN's Anderson Cooper that you think the new Ayatollah Mojtaba Khamenei is likely a transitional figure. But earlier today, a government controlled Iranian news agency reported that Iranian intelligence has arrested 30 people described as, quote, spies, operational and media mercenaries linked to what they call America and its Zionist enemy. American and Zionist enemies.

Is there any hope you think of transitioning to some sort of reasonable or in the neighborhood of reasonable Iranian government if they're still functioning this way?

SADJADPOUR: Not in the immediate term because it's a population under bombardment. It's kind of fighting for its life, this population. But what I meant by transitional figure is that I think this is a population which has really been secularized after five decades of Islamist dictatorship. And I don't think the next powerful man of Iran is going to be wearing a turbid, is going to be wearing mullah.

That doesn't mean, unfortunately, it's going to be necessarily a democratic figure, but I think it's more likely to be someone who is not outwardly religious.

TAPPER: Karoline Leavitt said something interesting today at the press -- at her press briefing, she said the war will end when Iran does unconditional surrender, whether they admit it or not. I thought that was an interesting clause.

SADJADPOUR: I think President Trump has a big decision to make. Whether he's going to be content with only degrading Iran's capabilities or does he also want to change the character of the Iranian regime? So far, there's no signs that this is a regime prepared to change its identity, its character of death to America and death to Israel.

TAPPER: All right, Karim Sadjadpour, we always appreciate your insights. Thanks so much for being here.

Still ahead, the possible disciplinary agent for Ed Martin, whom our CNN legal analyst calls the most dangerous prosecutor in America. We're going to let him explain why. Next.

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[17:26:48]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, Ed Martin, the outspoken and controversial Trump official, and that's putting it nicely, faces attorney disciplinary proceedings. This is over a letter he sent to Georgetown Law School.

In that letter, he told the school's dean that the Justice Department would not hire Georgetown students if the university did not shut down its diversity, inclusion and equity programs. I want to bring in CNN's senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

Elie, you wrote a piece on Ed Martin. You called him the most dangerous prosecutor in America. Where do you see this probe going?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jake, anytime you give enormous prosecutorial power to a charlatan, to a person like Ed Martin, who had zero prior prosecutorial experience before he took this job and came into an office with an explicit political agenda, you're going to wind up in trouble.

Now, during his time as U.S. attorney, Ed Martin made various wildly inappropriate public statements. He launched various explicitly political investigations, and now, as you said, he's facing ethics charges for over that letter to Georgetown Law School where he said, if you don't stop teaching and employing DEI, I'm going to punish your students. I'm not going to hire them here and I may cut off their funding.

So now he's charged with violating his oath as an attorney to uphold the Constitution, with violating the First and Fifth Amendment rights of Georgetown Law and its students. So now he will have to face an ongoing proceeding where he may lose his bar license. And for the first time, Jake, Ed Martin seems to be facing some level of accountability.

TAPPER: The FBI is subpoenaing records in Maricopa, Arizona as they expand their 2020 probe into voter fraud. I'm doing air quotes on that voter fraud. We should remind our viewers President Biden won that election over President Trump fair and square. And numerous governors, including in Arizona and boards of election and secretaries of state and judges all looked at the so called evidence and did not find enough to suggest anything meriting this probe.

That said, Elie, have you seen anything in this so far that would signal there is any sort of valid criminal case here?

HONIG: Absolutely not, Jake. And this is part of a trend because last month DOJ executed a search warrant and seized hundreds of thousands of ballots out of Georgia. And now we see a subpoena seizing ballots again out of Arizona. And if you look at that search warrant affidavit from Georgia, DOJ conspicuously fails to name any particular individual who may have committed any specific crime.

So they've not named any crime. It's hard to imagine, by the way, how they could prosecute anything more than five years after the 2020 election when the statute of limitations is five years. So I think we are seeing an unmistakable trend here and I don't see this resulting in any type of meaningful criminal charges.

TAPPER: Elie, I also want to ask you about this investigation into former CIA director under President Obama, John Brennan. Prosecutors are facing increased pressure from Justice Department officials to bring some sort of criminal charges against John Brennan. We've seen these retribution prosecutions not pan out. There was New York Attorney General Letitia James, former FBI Director James Comey, and on.

[17:30:00]

Not even able to get an indictment from a grand jury, which is an achievement unto itself. Do you think this one might be different?

HONIG: Well, Jake, as a rule, anytime you have your political appointees in DOJ who are eager and pushing for a prosecution, but the career experience prosecutors who are expressing hesitation, you're pretty safe betting on the career folks.

And you're right. The record here has been atrocious. Judges and grand juries alike have rejected retributive prosecutorial efforts aimed at Letitia James, aimed at Jim Comey, aimed at Senator Mark Kelly, Elissa Slotkin on down the line.

So if they proceed with this investigation of Mr. Brennan, we'll see where it goes, but count me skeptical. And Jake, all three of these stories that we're discussing today, there's three separate stories, but they have a common thread, which is DOJ intentionally and willfully shedding its years of institutional independence and becoming a political weapon for this administration.

TAPPER: Elie Honing, thanks so much.

Coming up, those trying to escape Iran right now, including members of an Iranian women's soccer team currently playing in Australia, the rather dramatic moment that left one member in tears.

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[17:35:28]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, the Iranian women's soccer team faced an unthinkable choice after completing a tournament in Australia. Return home to face U.S. and Israeli bombardment and Iranian repression, or seek asylum in Australia and risk the Iranian regime targeting them and their families.

CNN's Christina Macfarlane reports on where these players ended up and how President Trump ended up playing a role.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A last-ditch attempt by protesters to stop Iran's soccer team leaving. As the country's remaining members depart Australia, bound for a long journey to their war-torn home. Earlier today, players were seen being taken by the wrist onto a bus, escorted by police from their Gold Coast hotel. A source says seven team members who received humanitarian visas in the early hours of Tuesday morning were left behind.

TONY BURKE, AUSTRALIAN MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS: These women are tremendously popular in Australia, but we realize they are in a terribly difficult situation with the decisions that they're making. But the opportunity will continue to be there for them to talk to Australian officials if they wish to.

MACFARLANE (voice-over): With the families of all the players threatened in Iran by the regime, this was an agonizing decision not to go back, and a reason why their teammates may have chosen not to join them.

Fear for the players' safety began last week ahead of their first match of the Asian Cup. As U.S. and Israeli bombs fell on Iran, the team did not sing its national anthem. Soon after, Iranian state T.V. labeled them as wartime traitors, a crime punishable with prison time or even death under the Iranian regime.

The players then sang and saluted before their other matches. As Iran's first vice president insisted the government would guarantee the players' safety when they return, U.S. President Donald Trump called on the Australian government to grant the women asylum.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: President Trump rang me this morning, at just before 2:00 a.m. We had a very positive discussion. He was concerned about the Iranian women in the soccer team and their welfare and their safety if they returned home.

MACFARLANE (voice-over): The Australian government says it has done all it can to support the Iranian players to make the toughest of choices. Seven will remain in Australia. Their teammates return home to an uncertain fate in a country at war.

Christina Macfarlane, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And our thanks to Christina Macfarlane for that report.

[17:38:13]

Coming up next, the photo posted by New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani of a recently invited dinner guest during Ramadan that is drawing outrage from some porters in New York. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: We have some breaking weather news for you now, something we're going to be watching tonight. Forecasters have issued the highest severe thunderstorm risk in months for parts of the Midwest. Right now, parts of central Texas, including Abilene and San Angelo are under tornado watches. Severe weather just last Friday was to blame for a series of tornadoes that killed eight people in Michigan and Oklahoma.

Moving on, in our Politics Lead, New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani is taking some heat from some circles after posting this picture with a high-profile Palestinian activist detained and released by ICE. The mayor writes, "We marked the one-year anniversary of detention. Rama and I were honored to welcome Mahmoud, meaning Mahmoud Khalil, Noor and their son Deen to Gracie Mansion to break our fast together. It is Ramadan. Mahmoud is a New Yorker and he belongs in New York City."

Now, you might remember Mahmoud Khalil as the anti-Israel protester from Columbia University, to say the least. The Trump administration is working through an appeal to try to deport him for exercising his First Amendment rights. Let's discuss this and more with the panel.

So today, White House spokesperson Anna Kelly told "The New York Post," no one should be feting the anti-American pro-terrorist activities of Mahmoud Khalil, who made his name as a ringleader of violent anti-American and anti-Semitic university protests that harmed American foreign policy interests. The Trump administration goes on to accuse him of leading activities aligned to Hamas. What do you make of this all?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So first of all, I get the point. He's defending it like he was exercising his First Amendment rights. I get the talking point. Part of my problem is that we live in a culture now that the second you're discriminated against or face state action because you're doing because of your First Amendment right exercises, it makes you a martyr, makes you kind of a hero. This guy's not a hero. He's a putz.

The organization that he was part of just got into trouble at the beginning of this war by tweeting out death to America. The organization was pro-Hamas. It was he and the organization defended the 10/7 attacks in pretty explicit terms. And this comes on the heel of this other controversy of Zohran Mamdani's wife being revealed to have liked a whole bunch of social media posts saying that the mass rapes were all a hoax and that Hamas was justified and all that kind of stuff.

[17:45:13]

And Mamdani's defense is, well, she's a private person. It's not anyone's business. And then they go out. The most social media savvy mayor in America, by far, goes out and posts them feting, a fancy word, this guy who is an outright apologist for terrorism and part of a group made famous by a group that was organized around intimidating Jews on Columbia's campus.

And so you can say that the deportation stuff goes too far and has legal issues. I'm fine with having that argument, but it doesn't make this guy a hero and it doesn't make someone that you should celebrate inside a Gracie Mansion.

TAPPER: What do you make of it all, Karen?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So I think there's two pieces here, right? As Jonah was saying, there's the First Amendment piece. There's separate and apart from this individual and how you feel about him and his organization. You cannot, like you said, I think First Amendment rights are important. We should stand up for that, obviously, in the era of Trump, even more so.

GOLDBERG: Look, the Klan marching in Skokie weren't heroes. We didn't treat them as heroes for doing that.

FINNEY: No. You're right. You're right. I don't disagree. We're there. However, there's a political reality to this where they're trying to say this whole, like she's a public, she's a private person.

TAPPER: About his wife.

FINNEY: Having worked for the most public private spouse in America --

TAPPER: Hillary Clinton, yes.

FINNEY: -- Hillary Clinton. That you can't, sorry. I mean, once you are elected and once you are in a role like this, people are going to be curious about your spouse, period, full stop. They're going to look through your social media. They're going to -- and politically, yes, your spouse can be used against you. And I, you know, I say this to candidates all the time. That's just the political reality we live in and how you handle that.

Look, it's hard on families, but you know, what struck me, strikes me about this is they're trying to defend this as she should get to do whatever she wants. OK, but he's still going to be held accountable --

TAPPER: Yes.

FINNEY: -- for some of that.

TAPPER: In fact, let's roll what Mayor Mamdani said when asked about the story in "Jewish Insider" and "The Free Press" and "The New York Times" about her liking the social media posts you described. Here's Mayor Mamdani.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: My wife is the love of my life and she's also a private person who has held no formal position on my campaign or in my city hall. I, however, was elected to represent all 8.5 million people in the city. And I believe that it's my responsibility because of that role to answer any questions about my thoughts and my policies and my decisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So that was Friday. But you would suggest that after yesterday's posting, you can't -- that's not operative anymore.

GOLDBERG: Yes. Sort of tie these two things together. I mean, the problem is wanting to have it both ways to say it's outrageous to make my spouse a political issue. How dare you? Private person, all that kind of stuff. But then use that spouse for political purposes when you think it helps you or serve some sort of agenda.

Now, I personally think posting this this dinner picture doesn't actually help Zohran Mamdani at all. I don't think it helps him with the people who don't who don't trust him and all that kind of stuff. But he thinks it does. He thinks it helps him with his base. It gives him street cred. But regardless, you can't have it both ways. Either your spouse is a complete free agent and unrelated to your administration or not.

But it can't be. She's a prop when you want her to be a prop. And then if she does something that embarrasses you or he, depending on the politician, all of a sudden say, oh, that has nothing to do with me. It's one or once you're in, you're in.

FINNEY: Yes. I just think it's a political reality. I've had like I say, I've said this to candidates so many times. You may not think it's fair. It doesn't matter. This is this is reality. So let's deal with the reality that your spouse is. People are going to investigate them, be curious about them. They're -- I mean, their fashion, you know, Michelle Obama, you know, change fashion in this country because she had those fabulous arms.

I do not wear, you know, sleeveless dresses, but lots of people do. So point being, you know, particularly as the first lady of New York City, you know, largest Jewish population outside of Israel.

TAPPER: Yes.

FINNEY: That comes with some new responsibilities, whether you like it or not. It just is the reality.

TAPPER: Let me -- let's -- Mayor Mamdani is a very smart guy. And he had to have known that having Mahmoud Khalil, not because of the First Amendment issue, which I think we all probably agree with, like, you know, people have the First Amendment rights in this country. But the other issue of what he and his group did at Columbia University, what they stand for now, he had to have known it would upset people.

FINNEY: Well, and I think that this is the other piece, just speaking politically again, given that you're exactly right. And it plays into the fears that people had before he was elected and an issue that he's dealing with in terms of the Jewish community. So I'm surprised he wasn't more prepared to acknowledge that and to acknowledge that it may be upsetting to some people, whatever language you want to use.

[17:50:09]

It's not unreasonable that people would raise a question and say, well, wait a second, because again, it plays into something you already know is a political problem. And, you know, I -- again, one of my things I say to people, you do -- they're going to hit you. You don't have to give them the bat to do it.

TAPPER: So the mayor's office, what if they were to say something along the lines of, look, it's Ramadan. We're posting a picture. Every one of these iftars, Mahmoud Khalil had his First Amendment rights trampled on and the mayor, you know, is standing up for that. It's not about this other stuff. What would your response to that be?

GOLDBERG: That's BS. Just insofar as, look, Zohran Mamdani's own views on Israel-Palestine are pretty close to Khalil's, maybe not as extreme, but the fact is he knows that there was substance to what Khalil was saying in his First Amendment rights. This is not someone who had, you know, an obscene poster taken down. This is someone who organized for months around the proposition that Israel and those civilian Jews had it coming.

He plays word games now about how he doesn't support violence against civilians. That was not the impression of that group. Zohran Mamdani knows what this guy represents. He knows the organization that he's affiliated with. He knows the side of the argument that he's on. And he chose him because, not because he's a hero of civil liberties, but because he's a hero of the globalizing intifada crowd.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks to all. And we are extending right now, ad libbing and impromptu, an invitation for Mayor Mamdani to come on and discuss these issues.

A special new project is rolling out today for a colleague here at CNN. She's going to join us to tell you about it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:55:49]

TAPPER: In the National Lead, one of our favorite CNN correspondents, Rene Marsh, is out today with a brand new children's book. It's titled "The Nature of Change: Lessons of Determination, Resilience, and Hope from the Outside World." The book is beautifully illustrated. It follows a brother and a sister adjusting to a new home that initially feels strange and unwelcoming, but in their new backyard, they discover how nature adapts and thrives, offering guidance for resilience and hope and emotional growth.

It's a way to talk to kids about how to deal with change. It's my pleasure to bring Rene Marsh back to the show. Thank you so much.

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: Congratulations on this book from a HarperCollins imprint. You wrote it for kids, but you really also wrote it for anyone who maybe needs some reassuring on how to navigate changes that maybe they don't like.

MARSH: Yes. You know what? This is intended for children, but really I think we all at this point where I don't think it's a debate. If you say the world is on fire, it literally is. And sometimes we all, even us adults, need to go back to the basics and we need those reminders because it's all very overwhelming.

And so I hope that this book is a tool for parents who need that reminder of what hope looks like, what resilience looks like, and that we can find those moments of inspiration in the nature just outside our homes, looking out our windows and move forward moment to moment after you receive those moments of wisdom from nature.

But also for kids, because Jake, you know, I, as a mom, as we cover all that we cover every day --

TAPPER: Yes.

MARSH: -- the question that I always wonder is, you know, of course there's the headlines, but are our kids OK?

TAPPER: How are they doing? Yes.

MARSH: Yes. And, you know, some people may say, well, they don't understand the geopolitical situation that we're covering every day, but they do understand when mom and dad are stressed. They -- I was speaking to a mental health expert who said, parents, you lend your nervous system to your child. So they pick up on those shifts.

TAPPER: Yes.

MARSH: So are we as parents, are we as the adults in the room helping these kids navigate those big changes that they are seeing, the shifts in emotions within their own households? Are we doing that enough? And are we really thinking about that? I hope this book will be a tool to help parents start those conversations.

TAPPER: So your CNN family here and the people who love you out there who view the show know about when you lost your beloved two-year-old son, Blake, to brain cancer. How did that inspire this book, if at all?

MARSH: It did. I mean, it was really the seed where this idea blossomed out of. I mean, after losing Blake, and anyone will know losing a child is the most tragic, devastating thing that could happen to you.

TAPPER: Yes.

MARSH: And it happened to me. And when I think back at that time, I was literally paralyzed by my grief. But that paralysis enabled me to sit still enough and focus enough to notice things that I never noticed about nature. Wisdom, messages that I had never paid any attention to.

I always appreciated nature, but never did I feel a message in my heart the way I did when I saw a broken limb on a tree in my backyard after a really bad snowstorm. And that following spring, that same limb started to blossom.

And in that moment, I realized that even in your broken state, you can still grow in the fall when trees are losing it all, they are down to their bare limbs and there they are standing tall. So those are all the sort of messages that I received when I literally was just sitting there trying to process the world that I felt like I no longer understood.

TAPPER: The most unfair thing that could happen to one of the loveliest people I know.

MARSH: Thank you.

TAPPER: Well, you're great to have taken that and what you learned and to have turned it into something to help other people.

MARSH: I hope.

TAPPER: Yeah, it will. It will. It is called "The Nature of Change: Lessons of Determination, Resilience and Hope from the Outside World." The author is Rene Marsh and is beautifully illustrated and it is a wonderful book for anyone out there, mainly for kids, but also for adults.

[18:00:07] MARSH: Yes.

TAPPER: Also for adults. Rene, congratulations on the book.

MARSH: Thank you so much, Jake.