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The Lead with Jake Tapper

White House Says, Ceasefire Will Continue If Strait of Hormuz is Open; NASA Releases First Images from Artemis II Lunar Flyby; Tackling the Crisis of Veteran Homelessness in the U.S. White House Says "Tough" Threats Against Iran Got "Results". Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 08, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, could the fragile ceasefire with Iran already be in jeopardy?

[18:00:02]

Is the crucial Strait of Hormuz actually open or not? What are the next steps in this war, if any? The head of NATO traveled to Washington, D.C., to meet with President Trump to discuss all of that today. So, what happened behind closed doors? That NATO chief, Secretary General Mark Rutte, joins me live in moments.

Plus, the Artemis II astronauts are just about two days away from splashing down back here on Earth. But before then, they're sharing even more of their journey with us. Stunning images of what's known as Earth sets, craters that had never before been seen by human eyes. We're going to look at these photos with a retired astronaut live in studio to break down just how significant these discoveries are.

Also, it was the case that haunted New York communities for decades, and today the man known as the Gilgo Beach serial killer admitted to strangling eight women and then disposing of their bodies. Here's what he had to say to the judge inside the courtroom today.

And on any given night, more than 30,000 U.S. veterans experience homelessness. It's an embarrassing and tragic statistic. So, I traveled to Los Angeles to meet with Mayor Karen Bass to tour one of the brand new affordable housing sites being built for these American heroes who risked their lives for a country that is sadly failing.

The Lead tonight, the fate of the Iran war ceasefire, which Vice President J.D. Vance is calling fragile, it rests right now on the Strait of Hormuz. The White House says Iran has offered private assurances that the key oil passage is open following last night's deal despite state media reports there, Iranian state media reports, that Iran has halted traffic after Israeli strikes against Hezbollah in Lebanon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have seen an uptick of traffic in the strait today. And I will reiterate the president's expectation and demand that the Strait of Hormuz is reopened immediately, quickly, and safely. That is his expectation and it has been relayed to him privately that that is what's taking place, and these reports publicly are false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Key members of the Trump administration will begin key negotiations regarding the future of the war in Pakistan this Saturday. Today, the Israelis are launching what they call their largest barrage of coordinated strikes across Lebanon going after Hezbollah. They're killing at least 182 people, according to the Lebanese Health Ministry, and wounding hundreds more.

President Trump says that Lebanon was not part of the ceasefire deal. The White House says Trump spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last night and say he supports the president and the ceasefire.

Let's go to CNN's Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv. And, Jeremy, Netanyahu just convened a meeting of his security cabinet. What more do we know about the Israeli position on this ceasefire?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Jake, that's right. The Israeli prime minister is sitting down with his security cabinet to discuss this new reality, this new fragile ceasefire that has taken between the United States and Iran, and also leading to Israel withholding its strikes on Iranian territory.

But moments before that security cabinet meeting took place, the Israeli prime minister spoke out publicly for the first time since this ceasefire took effect, and he reaffirmed Israel's right to continue carrying out strikes against Hezbollah in Lebanon.

And that has been the story today, Israel and the United States both insisting that Lebanon is not part of the ceasefire agreement, despite the fact that the Pakistani prime minister, who's acting as the mediator in this case, and the Iranians, are both saying that Lebanon should be included as part of this. And it is leading to questions about whether or not this entire ceasefire may collapse over the fact that Israel is continuing to strike and claiming the right to continue to strike Hezbollah targets inside of Lebanon as it has killed nearly 200 people inside of Lebanon today, in the most severe strikes that it has brought down on Lebanon since this conflict began.

And all of this happened after the Israeli prime minister was largely kept out of the loop, in the dark, about the progress of these ceasefire negotiations. We're told by sources that he was briefed on the current status of those ceasefire talks very shortly before President Trump put out that post on Truth Social last night.

The question now is what happens going forward? As the Vice President J.D. Vance, who's set to travel to these negotiations on Saturday, he is calling all of this a misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding that could lead to this entire ceasefire collapsing.

TAPPER: Jeremy, do you know if the Strait of Hormuz is actually open like the White House claims? We talked to somebody in the oil industry. He said that he doesn't think that the White House has the information correct.

DIAMOND: Yes. There's no indication that the Strait of Hormuz is open right now. The Iranians, for their part, have said that they allowed two Iranian flagships to go through the strait earlier today, as well as one Chinese vessel. We've looked at marine traffic tracking data, there are no ships going through the Strait of Hormuz at this moment right now.

[18:05:06]

And the Iranians are insisting that as long as Israel continues to carry out strikes in Lebanon, they are going to keep that strait closed.

And that is where this question of whether this is the issue that's going to lead to the collapse of the ceasefire comes to bear. The vice president also addressed this today, saying that if we don't see the Strait of Hormuz opened, then the president is not going to abide by our terms, meaning that the United States is not going to abide by the ceasefire unless Iran holds up its end of the bargain, which is keeping that strait open and opening that straight in the first place. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv for us, thanks so much.

Let's bring in retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Colonel, Vice President Vance called the ceasefire fragile. He said he thinks it was a legitimate misunderstanding on Iran's part when the Iranians believed that Lebanon would be part of the ceasefire. And, of course, that's an issue because the Israelis are going after Hezbollah in Lebanon, bombing Lebanon, killing people there. It does seem like an important point. How does a miscommunication like that even happen?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's a great question, Jake. It shouldn't have happened, and, you know, especially when you're talking about specific geographies, like Lebanon and like the Israeli movements into Southern Lebanon, but Israel is basically trying to take over the southern part of Lebanon to serve as a buffer zone for its forces and for its citizens in Northern Israel, so that's a clear Israeli goal, and they haven't quite completed that. Plus, they've also just killed another senior leader in Hezbollah. So, they are still pursuing those kinds of targets and they'll continue to do so, I think, until there's a separate ceasefire for that, for that particular area.

So, I think as far as how this misunderstanding happened, I think that the United States is basically, in this case, taking the side of Israel. And whether or not it was discussed with the Iranians is actually an open question. But it seems as if the Iranians thought that this would cover the entire Middle East, but it is not. It's clearly just covering the ceasefire is just clearly covering the Persian Gulf region.

The White House says that any reports that Iran continues to have the Strait of Hormuz shut down, White House says that's false. You heard Jeremy Diamond just now saying that there's no indication that the Strait of Hormuz is open other than two Iranian ships and a Chinese vessel that the Iranians led through. The chief energy adviser at Gulf Oil, we talked to him in the last hour, Tom Kloza, he just told me that the oil industry is not seeing any evidence of substantial oil tanker traffic moving through the strait.

Can the U.S. military monitor this? I would assume that there are actual government, U.S. government experts that would know the truth of this. And if it's true that the Iranians are keeping the strait closed, even though President Trump denies it, what should happen?

LEIGHTON: Yes. Well, basically, you know, in terms of international maritime navigation that the straits should be open. Under international law, it should be open and it should be open in the way it was open, in other words, toll-free, before this war started. Yes, there are government experts absolutely, who would be able to monitor the traffic throughout the Persian Gulf region and specifically at the Strait of Hormuz.

So, I checked some of the similar maritime tracking sources that Jeremy did a little bit before he did, and I saw the same thing. There is basically no traffic going through the Strait of Hormuz. And, you know, quite frankly, you know, until they reach the volume of 135 or so vessels per day, which they're nowhere near doing, the strait is not quite open to the extent that it was before this war.

TAPPER: Even if tensions between the U.S. and Iran die down, tensions between the US and NATO countries continue. Karoline Leavitt at the White House was asked about a joint statement from the NATO countries about the Strait of Hormuz. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: I have a direct quote from the president of the United States on nato, and I will share it with all of you. They were tested and they failed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's your response to that?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think we really have to take a step back and realize that NATO is, first of all, a defensive alliance. And the way most European nations see this, and practically all of them, I think, see it, is that the United States, first of all, didn't consult with them. And, secondly, in many cases they believed that this war was an illegal war. So, it's really hard to get a defensive alliance to agree to support you if you're engaged in an offensive war and you are conducting an illegal war in their view. So, given those facts, you can't really blame the Europeans who have a political base that they have to serve, and, you know, in democracies, they have to do that. You can't really blame them for feeling the way they do. And that's, I think, the key element here.

[18:10:01]

TAPPER: Retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much.

NASA released new photos of the moment known as not sunset, Earthset, when the Earth appears to set behind the moon. It's one of the stunning sites seen by the crew of Artemis II. We're going to break down the best images next.

Plus, she's known as the ketamine queen. She's the woman who sold Actor Matthew Perry the drugs that led to his death. She was sentenced today. Stick with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Time now for our Out of This World Lead, views that the human eye has never seen before. NASA has been releasing these images of the moon captured by the Artemis II astronauts during their lunar flyby. The images capture the moon's heavily cratered terrain, its dark plains. The images include rare views of the lunar far side.

Here to walk us through these images is retired NASA Astronaut and Aerospace Engineer Dr. Jeanette Epps.

This is so cool. So, Dr. Epps tell me what the Earthset is. It's like a sunset, but it's the Earth.

JEANETTE EPPS, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: It is the earth. And this is a great image to show you that at any point on Earth, you have a nighttime and a daytime.

[18:15:05]

TAPPER: So, that's so cool.

EPPS: Yes. So, it's nighttime in the dark part of the Earth and daylight.

And when you're on orbit and your orbit kind of aligns with that, you get a -- you're on the terminator line, and so you never have a true sunset. But right here you could see clouds over Australia, you can see clouds over the earth forming storms and on the dark side, completely dark.

And then in the foreground you have -- I think this is definitely the far side of the moon. I think this is the Ohm Crater there. So --

TAPPER: What is that, the Ohm Crater? Just a known crater or --

EPPS: It's a known crater on the far side. You can't see it from Earth. But this -- all of this is on the far side of the moon.

So, the Earthset is kind of exciting because you can see part of the earth is nighttime and part of the Earth is daylight.

TAPPER: So cool.

EPPS: Yes, very cool.

TAPPER: So, you're talking about craters. What is the Vavilov Crater?

EPPS: Oh, this is an amazing crater here. So, this is the crater here, that's the Valilov Crater. And it shows so much detail. One of the cool things is that you could see how many times -- you know, there's a crater within a crater there, on there. Let me remove that. But you could see that there's a peak on the inside and you could see some terraces on the inner portion.

So, whatever impacted there, the force coming out, you could see the center points up and then you could see some of the ejecta around the crater itself. So --

TAPPER: Do we have any idea how big that is? I mean, is that like the size of the Grand Canyon? Is it the size of a continent? Do we --

EPPS: I can tell you that it is 98 kilometer -- 98 miles-wide.

TAPPER: 98 miles-wide.

EPPS: 98 miles.

TAPPER: Okay. So, that's big. And so --

EPPS: It is pretty big.

TAPPER: Yes. So, those terraces aren't just like steps. Those are --

EPPS: No. So, can you imagine trying to land there, that you wouldn't want to land there?

TAPPER: And it's from a meteor hitting the moon at some point.

EPPS: A meteor, some object. We're not sure exactly what hit it, but, yes, asteroid. So, it could be a number of things. But it's on the far side, so we can't actually see this directly from Earth. But, you know, once we get our people on the moon and they're there permanently, maybe we'll find out a lot more about what hit the moon. You could see all kind of craters all over.

TAPPER: And they saw -- they got a photo of a total solar eclipse, right?

EPPS: They did, which is kind of, 54 minutes of a solar eclipse. So, what that means is that the moon is completely shielding the sun, but you can see the moon -- the sun actually starts peaking out there. You can see a little bit of the sunlight here. And then in this -- right over there, we have a planet. I believe that's Venus.

TAPPER: Venus. Oh, that's so cool.

EPPS: Yes.

TAPPER: And what about moonstruck?

EPPS: Oh, this is beautiful. So, this is a great image of the Oriental Basin. And what it shows you is that -- so this is a great --

TAPPER: Also on the far side of the moon?

EPPS: No, this one is not on the far side.

TAPPER: Okay.

EPPS: And so you could see here you have one ring, another ring. So, it has some concentric rings, and this one is about 183 miles in diameter.

And one of the interesting things on it, on this is the center part. It's the black portion there just gives us an indication of ancient lava flows. So, there was some volcanic activity on the moon, which is kind of amazing and cool to think about.

TAPPER: That is so great.

Before you go, I have to ask you that the splash down's going to be Friday. You've done one of those.

EPPS: Yes.

TAPPER: It sounds absolutely terrifying. Is it?

EPPS: It's not terrifying because we practice a lot of it. We go to Wright Patterson Air Force Base. We get in there centrifuge and we kind of experience all the Gs that we would see, even some of the sea state that we might feel when we land in the water. And knowing is kind of half the battle. It's exciting.

TAPPER: So great to have you here. Thank you so much Dr. Epps.

EPPS: It's great to be here.

TAPPER: I appreciate it.

The head of NATO just met with President Trump at the White House to talk about the war in Iran. What did they discuss behind closed doors? How mad was President Trump, if at all? We're going to talk to NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte live in moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

TAPPER: Now to the latest in our series, Homeless in America. Today, we're going to take a look at the painful truth about many of the men and women who once served our nation in uniform but who now fight for shelter here at home.

More than 30,000 veterans are homeless in the United States. It's a crisis that plagues communities across the country, including in Los Angeles, where Mayor Karen Bass says she's determined to end homeless veterans.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID SINATRA, FORMERLY HOMELESS VETERAN: I didn't plan on being a homeless vet. Life just has a way of throwing things at you.

TAPPER (voice over): That's David Sinatra, an Army veteran who served in South Korea and Panama before life took an unexpected turn into homelessness.

SINATRA: I was living with my father in Pasadena in a two-bedroom, two-bath apartment. And then the news came that he was terminally ill. I was also engaged at the time to be married to a beautiful woman named, Cassandra Lynn (ph). Cassandra died of a heart attack.

And my dad, he passed away on my birthday. I knew I couldn't pay the rent by myself.

TAPPER: Sinatra says the grief and emotional weight of losing his father and fiance just a few weeks apart sent his life spiraling.

SINATRA: That was a miserable time.

[18:25:00]

People don't look at the homeless the same way they look at other people. There's kind of a stigma attached to it.

TAPPER: They think, oh, I, that could never happen to me?

SINATRA: Yes.

TAPPER: Did you ever think that?

SINATRA: I never thought for a minute I'd be homeless.

TAPPER: If you're curious about David Sinatra's last name, yes, there's a connection to that famous other Sinatra, the one who was in the rat pack.

SINATRA: And for those wondering, because I've had a lot of people ask me, Frank Sinatra was my cousin.

TAPPER: Your grandfather was Frank Sinatra's cousin.

SINATRA: Yes, Bruce's cousin.

TAPPER: You've met Frank Sinatra?

SINATRA: Yes.

TAPPER: And he was at your grandfather's wedding?

SINATRA: He was best man at my grandparents' wedding.

TAPPER: That's incredible. According to the V.A., on any given night, more than 30,000 veterans experience homelessness across the United States, including approximately 3,000 in Los Angeles County alone.

SINATRA: This was my bed for over a year. I was miserable, but I had to do it. I used to look at my dog tags and say that I come so far to go so low. Now, life is good. I can't complain. I got a roof over my head thanks to the mayor and HACLA and all these developers that are working hard for us. It's great.

TAPPER: Sinatra credits, HACLA, the housing authority for the City of Los Angeles, as well as a new initiative from Mayor Karen Bass focused on housing homeless veterans with helping him find stability and dignity again.

I asked Mayor Bass about that outside the V.A. in West Los Angeles.

I know that the population of veterans who are homeless is just embarrassingly high in the United States, L.A. being no exception. Here -- we're here in a V.A. center. There are some homes here for homeless veterans, and there's a new city initiative right here on the side of this bus.

MAYOR KAREN BASS (D-LOS ANGELES, CA): So, you know what? This is a perfect example. There's a lot of different categories of people who are unhoused. And this very street we're on, you know, several years ago this street was lined. It was so sad. It was lined with American flags and tents, veterans here. A couple of them even died on this street, and now they're moved inside.

TAPPER: This is what this same street looked like just a few years ago, dozens of tents lined up along the sidewalk, proudly displaying the flag occupied by Americans who once bravely served their country.

BASS: The point of this program that we've launched is to let veterans know that we can house them now and they can keep their healthcare. Veterans were hiding and choosing to be unhoused because they were left with a choice.

TAPPER: Between healthcare and housing?

BASS: Yes. How crazy is that? So, if you're a disabled veteran, we penalize you.

TAPPER: It sounds like Washington.

BASS: Exactly.

TAPPER: This is the site of a new 53-unit affordable housing project for homeless veterans in West Los Angeles expected to open later this year. Mayor Bass' office says this is part of more than 6,000 units already underway with tens of thousands more planned.

What is seeing a project like this mean?

SINATRA: It's inspiring. Homelessness with veterans was rampant, and it's great to see that we don't have any more tent cities in front of the V.A.

TAPPER: Tell me what you think about this program, what the mayor's doing here.

LUIS ORIHUELA, FORMERLY HOMELESS VETERAN: It's huge.

TAPPER: That's Luis Orihuela, another formerly homeless veteran who served in the Navy during Operation Desert Storm.

ORIHUELA: Whenever you lose your income ability, your earning ability, you feel like a failure as a provider, as a man. The V.A. and HACLA helped me regain myself identity and my -- being proud of myself, not ashamed of myself anymore. I lived in a pickup truck. I lived in a vehicle. I would park on top of parking garages because it's safer up high.

TAPPER: Luis Orihuela and David Sinatra are among more than 750 veterans and their families, the mayor's office says, have been placed through the How's Our Vets initiative, but their stories are just a small part of a much larger crisis with more than 70,000 people still experiencing homelessness in Los Angeles.

Tackling the incredibly challenging homelessness problem in L.A. is one of the reasons you ran in 2022.

BASS: That's right.

TAPPER: We checked in with you 2024 when you were clearing out an encampment and bringing homeless people to these containers.

BASS: That's right.

TAPPER: So, where are we? Where is Los Angeles on tackling this problem?

BASS: Sure. Well, I am glad to report. For the first time, we've actually had a decrease in homelessness.

So, in the country, homelessness has increased 18 percent. Homelessness has decreased, and I'm referring to encampments and street homelessness, has decreased by about 18 percent.

TAPPER: Wow.

Mayor Bass says progress is happening, but she acknowledges there is a lot more work to be done.

BASS: Part of this journey is not just getting people off the street, but it's transforming a very dysfunctional system that was put in place in a very, you know, unscientific manner over four decades and unraveling what the problems are and solving those problems.

[18:30:17]

Skid Row is still a huge problem because we have thousands of people unhoused in a very small area. That is horrible and we're working on that. But what you see around the city is far fewer encampments on streets like this.

TAPPER: David Sinatra says, for the first time in a long time, he's hopeful.

SINATRA: I got a lot of good friends that are still homeless and they're struggling. They don't see any way out.

TAPPER: The mayor says she's going to end veteran homelessness in Los Angeles. Do you think she can do that?

SINATRA: I think she can. I'm seeing -- like I said, I'm seeing a lot of homeless vets get housed lately.

TAPPER: Yes.

SINATRA: So, it's -- the program's working.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (on camera): Here on The Lead, we're going to stay on top of that story in Los Angeles and continue to cover the homelessness crisis in America.

Coming up, the head of NATO fresh out of a meeting with President Trump amid the Iran war, Trump's even been talking about withdrawing from NATO. So, was there any tension in the meeting? NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte came straight from the White House to our studio. We're going to talk to him live in moments

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

TAPPER: Turning back to our World Lead, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt teased a meeting between the president and NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte today saying Trump may discuss the idea of the U.S. leaving NATO entirely after expressing his displeasure with American allies for not supporting the U.S. and Israeli war against Iran.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte is here with me now. And you just came from a meeting at the White House with President Trump. He's not been hiding his frustrations with NATO countries. How was the meeting? Did he say he's withdrawing?

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Well, let me be absolutely clear. He is clearly disappointed and with many nature allies and I can see his point. But at the same time I was also able to point to the fact that the large majority of European nations has been helpful with basing, with logistics, with over flights, with making sure that they lift up to the commitments. And there is also widespread support for the fact that degrading the nuclear and the inter -- the ballistic missile capacity from Iran was really crucial and that only the U.S. was able, at this point, to do that.

And let's not forget there's Kier Starmer, the British prime minister, who's bringing together now a coalition of over 30 countries, even over 40, but 34 participated yesterday in a planning meeting with military leaders to make sure that free sea lanes being able to use the Strait of Hormuz going forward, it will be possible. So, I also pointed him to the positive.

But, clearly, this was a very frank, a very open discussion, but also discussion between two good friends.

TAPPER: Did the president say he was going to try to withdraw from NATO, or at the very least, not support NATO as much as other presidents have?

RUTTE: Well, as I said, there is the disappointment, clearly. But at the same time, he was also listening careful to my arguments of what is happening. And I also pointed him to the fact that it was his leadership, which brought about the Hague spending commitment, so the 5 percent, which is a transformational change in NATO. This is a transformational legacy he leaves behind. This is NATO 3.0, the Europeans being able to take more care for their own defense, so a stronger Europe and a stronger NATO.

TAPPER: The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the president is weighing punishing some NATO allies for not being helpful to the U.S. and Israel during the war, quote, the proposal would involve moving U.S. troops out of NATO member countries deemed unhelpful to the Iran war effort and station them in countries that were more supportive of the U.S. military campaign. Did the president talk about that at all today?

RUTTE: Again, it was a very frank, it was a very open discussion. He clearly told me what he thought of what happened over the last couple of weeks his disappointment.

TAPPER: Some countries specifically said, you can't use our bases, you can't even fly over our airspace Spain, France.

RUTTE: Yes. But, listen, the large majority, including France, of European nations has been doing what they committed before they would do in a case like this. So, Europe as a platform of power projection for the United States was in full play over the last six weeks. And, yes, it is true, not all European nations lived up to those commitments, and I totally understand that he is disappointed about it.

TAPPER: On a scale of one to ten, one being not worried at all, ten being terrified, where do you leave Washington thinking President Trump -- your opinion of President Trump wanting to leave NATO? Are you one, I'm not worried at all, ten, I'm really worried Trump is going to pull out of NATO?

RUTTE: Well, I'm not going to get into that -- answering that question.

TAPPER: I'm just trying to get --

RUTTE: No, I understand. I understand. But what I felt today this was a meeting between friends because we like each other. I really admire his leadership and he knows what he did in the Hague last year at the NATO summit has been crucial and NATO allies are with him when it comes to the aims of taking out, as I said, degrading the nuclear and the ballistic missile capacity of the Iranians.

TAPPER: Yes. But you guys -- but Europeans wanted to do it through diplomatic means.

RUTTE: Yes, I know. But we run the risk that this would lead into the North Korea moment where you talk so long, that, at a certain moment, it's beyond the point where you can still get this done because then they would get their hands on the nuclear capacity. And that is basically a big risk for Europe. It is existential for Israel. It is existential for the Middle East. So, the whole world is safer by this president degrading those capabilities.

TAPPER: But there are a lot of your --

RUTTE: And this is by many in Europe acknowledged, and they understand that continuing talking to get this done would have brought us potentially past that moment where we can still deal with it.

[18:40:03]

TAPPER: So, you talked about the statement of NATO allied countries, about the Strait of Hormuz, about trying to figure out a way forward. Here is the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, when asked about the joint statement from the NATO governments about the Strait of Hormuz. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: I have a direct quote from the President of the United States on NATO and I will share it with all of you. They were tested and they failed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you agree that NATO countries, some of them, were tested and failed?

RUTTE: Some of them, yes, but a large majority of European countries, and that's what we discussed today, have done what they promised before in a case like this because they know that when it comes to NATO, it's there to protect United States because the U.S. needs a secured Atlantic and a secured Arctic and a secured Europe to stay safe here, the U.S mainland. But it is also there to make sure that, of course, Europe is safe, and to be this platform of power projection for the United States.

So, what U.S. did with Iran they could do, because so many European countries lift up to those commitments, not all of them. And I totally understand his disappointment about that. But it is therefore a nuanced picture. It is not just saying it is black or white.

TAPPER: How many NATO allied countries, a lot or a little, thought that the war that President Trump and Israel waged against Iran was illegal, was an illegal war? Do you think that's a prevalent view?

RUTTE: No.

TAPPER: What about --

RUTTE: No, because NATO has always taken the position that degrading these capabilities of nuclear and the ballistic missiles is crucial, and that Iran can never get his hands on those two capabilities. There is widespread support for that point of view.

TAPPER: I've also heard the argument that NATO countries weren't involved because NATO is a defensive organization, and this was an offensive war, a war by choice, obviously a nuclear Iran -- you know, an Iran with nuclear weapons is not acceptable to NATO, but that the president didn't have to wage this war at that moment. Is that part of this calculus at all.

RUTTE: Yes, but you cannot defend yourself without being lethal. And look at NATO, the Germans now spending in 2029 150 billion, thrice as much as in 2021. They will spend the same as the French and the Brits combined. The whole of NATO is now in 2 percent. Last year, NATO spent 20 percent more, Canada and the European NATO allies, thanks to President Trump's pushing for this Trump 45, but also Trump 47 after the Hague Summit. And then we agreed collectively to get to this 5 percent of defense spending. I mean, without him, we would never have gotten there.

TAPPER: So, the Strait of Hormuz, obviously that's been a real crisis for so many in Europe. I read that in Italy, they even have school by Zoom because of the gas crisis in Italy right now, almost as if it's COVID era and other European countries have been hit hard. Are the Straits of Hormuz, as far as you can tell?

RUTTE: Well, of course we have to see over the next couple of days what happens.

TAPPER: But as of now, I mean.

RUTTE: Well, I don't have the intelligence now at my fingertips to give you that answer, but I think over the next couple of days we will know. And it is absolutely true, that for the Europeans, but also for the Asians, look at Japan, look at Korea, look at Australia, and other countries, like Thailand and the Philippines, they get huge volumes in terms of their oil and gas, et cetera, from -- through the Strait of Hormuz.

So, for them, it's crucial. It's crucial for Europeans.

TAPPER: Yes.

RUTTE: And this is why Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, brought together this coalition, making sure that answering the questions, what, where and when, when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz, we can act collectively.

TAPPER: When President Trump threatened to kill the entire Iranian civilization, did that bother you at all as a diplomat?

RUTTE: Well, you know, what I always say when it comes to what leaders are saying, I'm not commenting on everything. What I want you to know is that I support a president and I know large parts of Europe do when it comes to taking out the capacity of Iran, to export chaos to the region, to Europe, to the whole world. They are one of the main enablers of Russia's war effort in Ukraine. We all know this.

TAPPER: Yes, all the drones.

RUTTE: With the drones. It is an existential threat to Israel if they would get their hands on nuclear capability. It is great to try to negotiate it away, but we also always knew that with North Korea, it took too long, and then North Korea had its hand on the nuclear, and then you cannot negotiate any longer, and they have that power.

TAPPER: Is the world safer today than it was before the war was started?

RUTTE: Absolutely. Because -- and this is thanks to President Trump's leadership. Degrading these capabilities is really very important for your and my safety here in the U.S., in Europe, in the Middle East.

TAPPER: Are you worried at all about the increased ties between Iran and China that have seemed to have been strengthened during this period?

[18:45:04]

RUTTE: Well, but let's not be naive. We know that these ties were there. We know that when it comes to the war in Ukraine, for example, there's Russia, North Korea, Belarus, China, Iran working together. We see that these theaters of the Indo-Pacific, the Middle East, and NATO. So, Europe, the transatlantic are getting more and more interconnected. And you cannot look at this from one angle and say totally separated from the rest.

This is all influencing each other. It is Russia exporting its missile technology to North Korea, giving money to the Iranians in return for the drone technology, which Iranians use to basically pay for their proxies in the Middle East to create indeed the chaos they are doing there.

So, we know this. Let's not be naive.

TAPPER: All right. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, diplomatic, as always -- thank you, sir. Really appreciate it.

You know how President Trump threatened to destroy the entire Iranian civilization if Iran didn't make a deal? Wait until you hear how the White House is defending that today. We're going to discuss it with the panel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our politics lead now, drivers in Indiana are going to get a slight break from the surging price of gas due to the war with Iran. Republican Governor Mike Braun announced today, quote, "I am suspending Indiana's gas tax for at least 30 days to provide Hoosiers relief from the pain at the pump from high gas prices," unquote.

[18:50:02]

Here to discuss the impacts of the war is the panel.

Jonah, Karoline Leavitt was asked today about Trump's extraordinary, some might say, grotesque threat to wipe out the civilization of Iran. Iran has a population of 93 million, as you know. And she was asked if the world should take his word seriously or not. And here's part of what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The world should take his word very seriously, and understanding that the president is always most interested in results. And it was the Iranians who backed down, not President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What do you think?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: To be honest, I mean, someone referred to this as Schrodinger's ceasefire. It's very difficult to figure out what the hell to think about a lot of this.

TAPPER: Well, we still don't know what's in the ceasefire.

GOLDBERG: We don't know the cease fire. The Strait of Hormuz is still closed. It feels to me very much that basically Donald Trump blinked, not because we were -- it was a -- wasn't for military reasons. It was for political reasons.

He -- what concerns me is if we're negotiating with Iran, we'll be okay. I think we'll come out of that. Okay. If were negotiating with ourselves, if Donald Trump has some sort of internal political calculation about how he can get out of this, this could end up being just a massive mess.

If we're in a joint venture with the Iranians for a Strait of Hormuz toll, I don't know that that's a huge success. And I just think what Zhou Enlai, apocryphally when asked was the French revolution a success? He was asked in 1973. His response was "too soon to tell". That's sort of how I feel about this right now.

TAPPER: Why do you think this happened? Do you think President Trump was looking for an off ramp in the Pakistanis just provided one?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: He was looking for an off ramp. And I think they did everything but sort of dictate the terms to the Pakistanis. And I think the Mortensen question is, who in Iran made the decision to say yes, because Iran is such a set of overlapping political groups, it's never clear sort of how they come to consensus or if they do, or if the decision was made by the new supreme leader.

But I thought there was something really interesting in Karoline Leavitt answer there, because she answered the question completely as a matter of power politics, the president went up. He made this apple apocalyptic threat. We think people were probably leaving Tehran worried about what would go on. And in his view, that worked. What this takes out of the equation, at least for now, is the sense that the United States is guided by some rules of international law, and war crimes.

TAPPER: Or basic morality.

SANGER: Or basic morality. And, you know, I think the test for this is if Vladimir Putin had said the same thing, how would we have all covered it?

TAPPER: Yeah. Let's turn to -- so this is the question about whether or not we were getting out of this war, but there was a great story in your paper, "The New York Times" earlier today for Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, back from their book leave for their new book, "Regime Change", takes us inside the Situation Room as the war was being basically sold to the president, who didn't sound like he needed much of a pitch. But Netanyahu and others in the Mossad were there.

The strong, the CIA -- so Netanyahu does his big presentation about everything that's going to be achieved include regime change, Democratic Iran and all the rest. And then he leaves.

And then there's this pushback from his cabinet, including, quote, the CIA director used one word to describe the Israeli prime minister's regime change scenarios, "farcical". At that point, Secretary of State Rubio cut in. In other words, "It's bullshit".

The Israelis have basically pitched this to a lot of presidents.

SABRINA SINGH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: This was something that actually came up in the Biden administration. When October 7th happened, Israel obviously went into Gaza with full force and started dismantling Hamas. And then, of course, the war expanded into Lebanon with Hezbollah. And then the Houthis came, you know, entered the fight. And then it sort of became contained within Gaza.

But it was always Iran. It was always about what the Iranian proxies were doing. And it was something that we were always monitoring because our forces were getting attacked in Iraq and Syria and --

TAPPER: And killed.

SINGH: And killed.

And so, I think there was a quote in that story that said that General Caine said, basically, the Israelis come to the table, they oversell you on their ideas, and they try and bring you in. And that is something that presidents have had to walk this fine line of not being drawn into a larger regional war. And that was something that we had to calculate. It's unfortunate that we are where we are. I do think success should be given to operation midnight hammer. That

was something that this administration took on.

TAPPER: Last June.

SINGH: Last June.

TAPPER: Bombing nuclear facilities.

SINGH: Yes. That did kind of decapitate a quite a power for Iran.

[18:55:00]

But now we are in this mess, and nothing has actually changed from the beginning except that now the strait is closed. And that is a huge power point for Iran.

GOLDBERG: I do think it's funny that the day before that "New York Times" story came out, which is a great story. Not to get too chronology about it, but it's obviously much of it was as told to by J.D. Vance. At least that's the way a lot of people are reading it.

But what I think is funny about it is like the day before at a press conference, Donald Trump was talking about sending a reporter to jail because of leaks about the rescue operation. And then basically huge chunks of his own cabinet.

TAPPER: If not himself.

GOLDBERG: If not -- are leaking about these highest level, secure, classified conversations.

TAPPER: Let me just read this because you're alluding to the fact that -- I don't know who the sources were, but J.D. Vance certainly comes across in a way that J.D. Vance would want to come across. In front of his colleagues, Mr. Vance warned Mr. Trump that a war against Iran could cause regional chaos and untold numbers of casualties could also break apart Mr. Trump's political coalition, and would be seen as a betrayal by many voters who had bought into the promise of no new wars.

Do you think that this article, while perhaps will help J.D. Vance in 2028, will hurt him with President Trump? Because here he is portrayed in the, you know, the best -- the biggest newspaper in the country or the best newspaper in the country. Here he is splitting with the president heroically.

GOLDBERG: I think it could. I also think it feeds into how much trust people are going to have for Vance in these negotiations.

TAPPER: All right. Fascinating stuff. Thanks one and all for being here. Appreciate it.

Coming up, the woman who provided actor Matthew Perry with the lethal dose of ketamine that ultimately led to his death, has just been sentenced. That story is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our law and justice lead now, the woman who provided actor Matthew Perry with the dose of ketamine that ultimately led to his death, was sentenced to 15 years in prison today.

Last year, Jasveen Sangha, also known as the "Ketamine Queen", pleaded guilty to five federal criminal charges related to Perry's death in 2023.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and Instagram @TheLeadCNN.

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