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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Says, Next In-Person Talks With Iran Could Come This Weekend; Artemis II Astronauts Speak to CNN About Historic Moon Mission; RFK Jr. Faces Questioning by House Over HHS Agenda and Budget. Trump: "Mayor Mamdani Is Destroying New York"; Trump On Gas Prices: They're Not That High. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 16, 2026 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.
This hour, President Trump sounding optimistic about a potential deal with Iran, saying the U.S. has, quote, a lot of agreement with Tehran. U.S. officials also tell CNN the troops in the Middle East are re- arming and ready to resume combat if these ceasefire talks fail. We're going to go live to the White House for an update in just moments.
Plus, fresh off their history-making mission, the Artemis II astronauts took questions this afternoon at the Johnson Space Center. The crew sharing their surprise at how much global attention their journey got, describing the moment their capsule went into free fall as like, quote, if you dove off a skyscraper backwards. CNN's Erin Burnett just wrapped up an interview with the astronaut. She's going to share more of that ahead.
Also, we're learning new details about the suspect accused of throwing a Molotov cocktail at the home of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. Police say he also tried to break into the company's offices and was carrying a manifesto.
[18:00:001]
Hear comments that the suspect made just a few months ago when he was interviewed on a tech podcast.
The Lead Tonight, President Trump teasing another round of peace talks between the U.S. and Iran as soon as this weekend. The president now optimistic, he says, that his negotiators are making progress after their failed attempts last Saturday. There's now less than one week before the U.S. truce with Iran expires.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Iran wants to make a deal and we're dealing very nicely with them. We've got to have no nuclear weapons. If we do -- that's a big factor. And they're willing to do things today that they weren't willing to do two months ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: President Trump also announcing a ten-day ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, or more specifically Hezbollah. That's set to take effect as of 5:00 P.M. Eastern Time. It's a key move for peace talks in the region as Israel's continued strikes on the Iranian proxy group, Hezbollah, inside Lebanon threatened to wreak havoc on negotiations between the U.S. and Iran. Despite signs of progress, Trump says the U.S. will resume strikes on Iran if a deal is not made before next week.
Let's bring in CNN's Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, what's the latest?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. The president, had a pretty extended Q&A session with reporters as he was leaving the White House for Nevada earlier today, and obviously there were many questions on Iran.
He did seem to differ a bit on whether or not he's willing to extend that ceasefire agreement that he has struck with Iran, which is to expire next Tuesday, just a few days from now, and there had been some questions about whether or not he would be willing to do so.
He wavered at times from saying yes that he would be willing if the talks were going well, to at other times saying he didn't think he'd have to extend it. Obviously, that still remains to be seen. But largely, Jake, he was pretty optimistic about the state of these talks and where they are headed.
And at one point, he told us that Iran had agreed to not having a nuclear weapon, to not enriching uranium, to letting the United States get that enriched uranium. Those are things that we've heard from the president in the past. Those are things we've heard from Iran in the past. And so it's still a question of what's left for the United States and Iran to nail down as part of this.
But one big part that the president was touting today was this ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, that they are striking in Lebanon, that the president sounded very hopeful about as he talked about that.
And so still a lot of questions, Jake, about what's going to happen going forward. There was a point where the president was talking about potential talks happening in Pakistan, again, a second round of talks, where he said at one point, if the talks are far enough along, Jake, that he would be willing to go to Pakistan. But he seemed to say that that was not happening anytime soon, but certainly something that was at least on the table.
TAPPER: Kaitlan, you also asked the president about his back and forth this week with the pope. What did he have to say?
COLLINS: I mean, it hasn't ended, Jake. And the president has gone from criticizing the pope because he simply argued against the war in Iran, saying that there should be peace, talking about the lives that have been lost as a result of this. And so I just asked the president pretty simply why he is fighting with the pope. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Why are you fighting with the Pope and are you worried it's upsetting your evangelical supporters and --
TRUMP: I have to do what's right. The pope has to understand that very simple. I have nothing against the pope. His brother's MAGA all the way. I like his brother.
COLLINS: Why are you fighting with him then?
TRUMP: I'm not fighting with him. The pope made a statement. He says Iran can have a nuclear weapon. I say Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, Jake, the pope did not say that Iran should have a nuclear weapon, but, clearly, this is a back and forth between the president with the pope that he is continuing.
TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Don't miss Kaitlan on our show, The Source with Kaitlan Collins. That's tonight on 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.
And let's talk about this now with Montana Republican Congressman Ryan Zinke, also a former U.S. Navy SEAL Team Commander for SEAL Team 6. Thanks so much for being here. Good to see you again.
REP. RYAN ZINKE (R-MT): Great to be with you again, Jake.
TAPPER: So, the president weighed in about what could happen with the ceasefire if a deal with Iran is not reached before the ceasefire expires. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm not sure it needs to be extended.
I would say the fighting -- if there's no deal, fighting resumes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: How much longer do you think the American people will realistically have patience for the fighting to continue, for this war to continue?
ZINKE: I think most people that look at it understand three things. One is Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. Two, they cannot have enriched material. And, three, they cannot have an arsenal of evil.
When you look at the oil crisis we're having now, this is over 30 miles of the Straits of Hormuz. Can you imagine if they did have a nuclear weapon? They could hold the whole region hostage, perhaps globally. And when they say death to America, death to Israel, you have to believe it. And having a nuclear weapon doesn't have to come in the form of ballistic missile. It can come in the form of a Conex box, a shipping container in Houston, in New York, in Washington, D.C.
So, I think the three things the president has made very, very clear, can't have a nuclear weapon, can't have nuclear material, and you can't have an arsenal for destruction.
[18:05:08]
But there is some hope because the Iranians put Lebanon on the table. There is a piece that -- a ceasefire at least ten days.
TAPPER: Yes.
ZINKE: I think that's encouraging. And what's really encouraging is I think everyone wants peace. I want peace. I think Iran wants peace. The region wants peace. And can you imagine a Middle East without a global threat? The Middle East is in a position to blossom economically.
TAPPER: Yes.
ZINKE: And I hope that's the path.
TAPPER: Don't you think that at this point, Iran's capabilities, when it comes to nuclear, when it comes to enrichment, when it comes to nuclear weapon, when it comes to ballistic missiles, have been so seriously degraded that it is time to declare victory and leave?
ZINKE: Not without the assurance that they're not going to have a development program for nuclear weapon. And we know they have material. This is not a guess.
TAPPER: But didn't -- isn't the argument -- sorry to interrupt, but isn't the argument that they already made an agreement with Obama and they violated that agreement? So, I mean, I guess my question would be, like how could you even take them on their word if there was another agreement?
ZINKE: Well, I'll go back to Ronald Reagan, trust but verify. And just because they're going to say they have no more nuclear material, there's going to have to be a verification protocol, I would imagine that's inspection. So, that's a piece of the negotiations.
But, overall, you look where Iran is. The first echelon of leadership has been destroyed. The first and second echelon of military leadership has been destroyed. And as you point out, their ballistic capability has largely been diminished and not destroyed. Their navy has been destroyed. They have these attack ships, but they're really not ships. There's a difference between a ship and a boat.
TAPPER: Yes.
ZINKE: These are 40-foot, you know, cigarette boats with a machine gun. They have some destructive capability, certainly in mining. But, by and large, their ability to project force has been mitigated.
And it's interesting to see their neighbors. You know, where do their neighbors sit? I think their neighbors are really concerned too about the infrastructure of energy and making sure the Straits of Hormuz can deliver energy without, you know, facing mines or missiles or --
TAPPER: Sure. So, it's interesting because a week ago, President Trump was calling for Iran to open up the Straits of Hormuz, especially with that interestingly worded Easter Day tweet. But we don't --
ZINKE: That was a little rough on Easter.
TAPPER: But then now the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz is the United States is doing the blockade. How do you explain this to your constituents?
ZINKE: Well, what are we blockading? We're blockading ships coming out of Iran. We certainly are not blockading ships coming out of the Straits of Hormuz. We enjoy that. We wish NATO would help us with that. You know, a blockade -- remember that the straits is only 30 miles and the channel is 2 miles. So, 30 miles is not very far away from the coast, and you can inflict some damage even with the limited capability they have. You know, one drone to the side of an oil tanker, I can tell you it doesn't go very well. So, we are blocking Iran's ability to ship.
But it also affects, you know, globally. You look at the cost of oil is, you know, somewhere around a hundred. It should be around 65 to 70.
TAPPER: Yes.
ZINKE: And when the oil prices -- it's global cost. When oil prices rise, it affects everyone. It affects your interest rates, you know, your ability to fill your car up to go to work. So, globally, it's not a good thing.
TAPPER: So, you talked about the president's Easter Day message being a little rough, to say the least. It's been a very weird few weeks when it comes to this White House and administration and religion. The president had that message, then he had the image of himself as Jesus, then another image A.I.-generated of Jesus with his arm around him. You have Hegseth using all sorts of religious terms to talk about war. He called the press, the Pharisees today. And then there's this war with the pope, this feud with the pope. You're a Lutheran. You're not a --
ZINKE: No, I'm a Catholic.
TAPPER: Oh, you're Catholic. I thought you were a Lutheran.
ZINKE: No, I converted.
TAPPER: You converted from Lutheran into Catholicism?
ZINKE: I did.
TAPPER: Well, how -- what do you make of all this?
ZINKE: All right. One is that I think the pope should focus on the Trinity and peace and the president should focus on national security and policy. However, Matthew, as a Christian and a Catholic, I think, is one of the best chapters ever, because Matthew is about love and turning the cheek. So, I think both his Holiness and the president should focus on Matthew.
The president sometimes his Old Testament. He's on Ezekiel eye for an eye. But I'm hoping that they focus on the Matthew and the message of forgiveness and peace.
[18:10:00]
I think both sides simply should focus on peace and the road to peace. And I'm hopeful as a Catholic and a Christian that happens.
TAPPER: Just with respect, I'm not a Catholic, but like as long as I've been --
ZINKE: You can be.
TAPPER: -- as I'm aware, as long as I've been alive, I've been hearing popes talk about how much they hate war, whether it was the threat of nuclear war when I was a kid, or any war, truly. I guess I don't see the pope condemning war in, you know, vague terms as anything other than what his job is supposed to be, isn't it?
ZINKE: I agree. I think, you know, I don't speak for the Holiness, but, you know, obviously peace, non-war, humanity and the sick and the Trinity, absolutely. But on the other side, with President Trump, you cannot have Iran with a nuclear weapon. That is a threat that is beyond the pale.
And I do agree that, look, let's focus on -- the president, let's focus on policy, let's focus on being the president, his Holiness focus on the Trinity, and hopefully they'll meet together with peace.
TAPPER: Yes, blessed are the peacemakers.
ZINKE: Absolutely.
TAPPER: Congressman Zinke, always good to have you, sir. Thank you so much, and as always, thank you for your service.
CNN's Erin Burnett just sat down with the crew of Artemis II less than a week after. They splash down to Earth. She's going to join us live to talk about what life has been like since they reunited with their families, what it was like to make history on the far side of the moon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:00] TAPPER: Time for our Out of This World Lead, NASA is preparing for a new stage of its Artemis III mission, that's right, the next chapter of the United States' quest to land humans back on the moon. But ahead of that event next week, we're getting an update from the astronauts of Artemis II after their first days back on Earth. It hasn't even been a week.
CNN's Erin Burnett just spoke with the crew. Erin , I'm so jealous of the fact that you got to interview these people. I love them. How are they feeling six days after splashdown?
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: They are extraordinary and their interactions with each other are extraordinary just to watch them. I mean, they're a team. They've got a language all their own. You know, it was just talking to them, Jake, one really interesting thing, Christina Koch, I asked her, you know, when you're sleeping now, you know, you took all these amazing pictures, but what goes through your mind's eye of it?
And she talked about looking back at Earth and how it was just, you know, in a sense, this blue dot, but just this blue circle hanging there amidst so much black and that it was a lifeboat. And that they felt, you know, looking at Earth as this little lifeboat and that they were in this little tiny lifeboat, you know, that their ship was like Earth.
And, look, it's just profound and they are so extraordinary in their ability to talk about the profound experiences that they had for us to all try to just understand a touch of it, right, Jake. It was funny. Victor Glover talked about, you know, when they lost the communications and they went around the far side of the moon, you know, that they had these cookies, right? There was the mundane. And then he talked about the choice words that they used when they were having this experience that he described.
He talked about actually the quantum physics of love, that there was this feeling of love and that they would believe -- that they believe that love does transcend that 200,000 miles-plus, right? So, just people who are so scientific and with such engineering, with such spirituality was incredible.
And Reid Wiseman also talked about his wife in that moment, Jake, when they named the crater, Jeremy Hansen, the Canadian astronaut, announced that they were going to name this crater after Reid Wiseman's wife, Carroll, who had died of cancer in 2020.
And Reid talked about that moment. And then I asked him, Jake, asked him what she would've thought if she knew he was doing this now, right? She died in 2020 before he had been formally selected for this mission, right? But they had put their life as a family towards that incredible goal and ambition.
So, I asked him what she would've thought and how he thinks about, you know, what she thinks now. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) REID WISEMAN, ARTEMIS II COMMANDER: When she was starting to get try to get through this, when she was starting to get sick, I wanted to get her up to her family in Virginia, and that was the most important thing to me, to make sure she was comfortable and well-cared for. And she just wasn't having it. I mean, she -- that, that woman loved her children more than anything on Planet Earth. And she wanted those two girls to stay here, to stay in their school system and their friends and where they were comfortable. And she also knew how much this meant to me.
And at that point in time, this meant nothing to me. Like being an astronaut meant nothing to me. All I cared about was her and our two kids, and keeping it as stable as humanly possible. But she did not want us to leave this area, and she wanted me to continue down this path and to just see where this journey took.
And I don't know if she felt like she was responsible and therefore she didn't want me to leave, but that was definitely her desire. And then her family really turned to, and my family turned to, and they kept me on this train. It took a lot of support because this is not where I expected to be at the end of 2020. I just wanted to run and hide, to be quite honest. But they all just kept me pointed in the right direction.
And then to know that Ellie and Katie were in the back of Mission Control, and that was not planned. That was completely accidental that they were there that morning when Jeremy made that talk. And when he spelled out her name, C-A-R-R-O-L-L, I know that was really something special for me. But to be quite honest, to speak for the crew, that bonded us right there, right then in a very, very emotional and significant way, and we will never forget that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: Jake, they are simply extraordinary and just having -- being able to share a conversation and hear a little bit again of them just trying to give us a touch of what we all know we truly can't comprehend, but they want us to understand how truly special we all are to be here. So, that is coming up at 7:00.
TAPPER: They truly are the best of us. Erin Burnett, thank you so much for bringing that to us. I appreciate it.
Don't miss Erin's full interview on her show, Erin Burnett OutFront coming up right after The Lead, 7:00 P.M. Eastern. You won't want to miss it.
Health and Human Services Secretary RFK Jr. was facing some tough questions today from both Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill.
[18:20:02]
Hear some of those exchanges next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVEN HORSFORD (D-NV): Healthcare is real. And if you can't answer basic questions, then maybe come prepared next time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: In our Health Lead, heated hearings on Capitol Hill today for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Lawmakers grilled the HHS secretary on the administration's health agenda and RFK's credentials, or lack thereof, as he leads the department responsible for protecting the health of every American, even though he has no medical degree or scientific background.
Republican Congressman Blake Moore of Utah, the father of a son who's on the autism spectrum, delivered a rare Republican rebuke of RFK Jr. over how the administration has repeatedly falsely linked autism to acetaminophen or Tylenol despite a complete lack of scientific or medical evidence.
[18:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BLAKE MOORE (R-UT): My ten-year-old Winnie is neurodivergent on the autism spectrum. He's the joy of my life. He's the -- but that's tenfold for my wife.
I've always appreciated the administration's focus on this though. But I was underwhelmed with what we ultimately put out. My wife was hurt and she felt for a split second that there was any way she was responsible.
We don't even know if she took Tylenol during her pregnancy, but that was a hurtful moment for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: It's just awful.
CNN's Meg Tirrell joins us now. And, Meg, you've been following today's hearing closely. What were your biggest takeaways?
MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this was supposed to be a budget hearing, so he was ostensibly there to talk about President Trump's $111 billion request for the HHS budget, which is a 12 percent decrease and includes a lot of cuts to scientific funding, which they tried to do last year also, and Congress didn't follow through with that. They want to continue to fund the NIH. And there were some conversations about that.
But I think a lot of eyes were focused on would he stay on message on the more politically popular things, like nutrition and drug pricing, and Democrats were doing their best to push them off that message and to really try to hammer him on things like vaccines and measles outbreaks. And there was one particularly contentious exchange, although you showed another one at the top there as well with Representative Madeleine Dean who asked him about what he's been doing on vaccine policy as it relates to the measles outbreaks we've seen in Texas and other places. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): You fired all of them?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: Yes.
DEAN: All of the vaccine board?
KENNEDY: The entire corrupt vaccine board.
DEAN: Okay, thanks. You've decided they were corrupt. And apparently what their practices were, what their recommendations were keeping us healthier, children healthier, children alive.
KENNEDY: You're not going to --
DEAN: You replaced them --
KENNEDY: You will not let me reply because you do not dare to talk to me about what you just talked about, measles. You do not have the courage to allow me to reply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TIRRELL: So, he was on the defense a lot about measles today. And in that instance, he was saying a lot of the kids who got measles were over the age of five. And so he was saying it's not, since I've been HHS secretary, that the measles vaccination rate has gone down, ignoring the fact that, of course, he worked with Children's Health Defense for years before that, which is a organization that has spread a lot of doubt about the safety of vaccines.
TAPPER: Yes. He's been an active anti-vaccine campaigner for more than 20 years, including writing an article in Rolling Stone that they had to retract quickly.
The president just announced his new CDC director nominee.
TIRRELL: Yes, Dr. Erica Schwartz. She was the deputy surgeon general in President Trump's first term and is really seen as a sort of more middle of the road choice when it comes to vaccine policy, kind of continuing this political shift, it seems, like they're trying to make going into the midterms to seem less extreme when it comes to that issue. She is seen as more of a public health sort of standard choice.
TAPPER: All right. Meg Tirrell, thanks so much.
Coming up, the man accused of throwing a Molotov cocktail at the home of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, he was allegedly carrying a manifesto when arrested. Those details next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
TAPPER: In our Law Justice Lead today, as the 20-year-old accused of trying to kill OpenAI CEO Sam Altman remains in jail awaiting arraignment, we are learning new details about him. His name is Daniel Moreno-Gama. He's the man, authorities say, went to throw an incendiary device at Altman's home last Friday, and then allegedly tried to break down the doors of the headquarters of his company, OpenAI.
Police say Moreno-Gama had in his possession an anti-A.I. manifesto that he'd written that called for the killing of A.I. CEOs.
Moreno-Gama's parents and his attorney say that he suffers from mental illness. He has not yet issued a plea. The arraignment has been pushed to May 5th. And now we're learning Moreno-Gama shared his concerns about A.I. as a threat to humanity in a podcast interview just a few months ago in January.
Here now is Andy Mills. He's the editor-in-chief of Longview. He spoke to Daniel Moreno-Gama on the podcast, the Last Invention. Andy, thanks for being here.
So, you and your colleagues spoke to him when he was 19 years old after coming across a post on a Discord server called Stop A.I. Why did your -- why did that post catch your eye, and why did he want to stop A.I.?
ANDY MILLS, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, LONGVIEW: Well, we've been doing this podcast series where we're trying to document the race to build AGI the reaction from the public about AGI. And I don't know yet if AGI has become a household phrase, so it is probably worth to go ahead and refreshing here.
What the A.I. labs' stated purpose is not to build A.I. products, like these chat bots, which are cool, or Claude code, which is really useful, all of the different frontier A.I. labs, they're trying to create something more like a digital super species. I mean, it sounds silly to say, but they think that if they can create a digital intelligence that is at the AGI level, right, that's artificial general intelligence, that is as capable and as intelligent as a really intelligent person, that this will be a profound, amazing, like world-changing event for humanity that will come up with new medicines, will maybe live to be 200, 300 years old, will travel the stars, but they also think that there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of danger that could come with creating that.
And so we have been on our podcast trying to give voice to the different beliefs, the different sides, and the debates about should we build this, should we build it slowly, would it be an amazing thing to make it, are we essentially ushering in our own extinction. And one group of people that we wanted to hear from where the people who believe that the danger posed by AGI is so dire that we should use violence to stop these labs. And this is a view that you can find in different corners of the internet, but you know how it is as a reporter, it's hard to know. People will say things on the internet. Is that really what they believe?
[18:35:00]
Are they just trying to get a rise out of people? Is this actually, you know, a substantial enough population that we should cover them?
So, we were in a Discord channel. We saw this guy was posting, he was asking questions about using violence to stop AGI. And when we reached out to him, asked if he would sit down for an interview, we were surprised that he said yes.
TAPPER: Yes. So, in your interview, you pressed Moreno-Gama about a post where he wrote, he was interested in, quote, Luigi-ing some tech CEOs, obviously that's a reference to Luigi Mangione who killed a United Healthcare CEO. Now he says he was just being provocative, and I don't think we need to say it, but just in case, obviously, neither you nor I are advocating any sort of violence in any way about this, but you pressed him on violence. Let's run just a little bit of that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLS: So, you don't really think it would be wise for someone to, let's say, kill Sam Altman?
DANIEL MORENO-GAMA: No. I mean, I think these people, they have unlimited resources. One person is not really going to do that much of a dent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now, he says a couple of times that he didn't think violence was the answer. Obviously, he changed his position, but how at that point was he calling for change?
MILLS: You know, what's really interesting is that when I interviewed him, he clearly had been deep inside of the online discourse from the people who are often called A.I. doomers. They prefer to be called A.I. safetyists. But these are people like Eliezer Yudkowski, Connor Leahy, Nate Soares. And he namedropped them in the interview, which I thought was interesting, and said that he had basically been converted to their position after watching a ton of their YouTube videos and thinking that their arguments were better than the people who were saying that they were wrong.
And when I was pressing him on, you know, online, you're also calling for violence, what do you think about violence now, he was uncomfortable. He at first said, no comment. And then he started to say, well, we should exhaust every other means before we turn to violence.
And so I was -- I did not expect that he was going to end that interview and go out and actually attack someone. In fact, when I saw on Saturday that the police had released his name, I turned to my colleagues and I said, oh, shit, that's Dan. Like that's him. That's the guy we just interviewed. And I was really surprised.
TAPPER: Andy Mills, fascinating stuff, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today.
An apparent rift between two powerful New Yorkers, President Trump accusing Mayor Mamdani of destroying the Big Apple. So, what happens to that once friendly relationship between the two gentlemen from Queens? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
TAPPER: Our Politics Lead now, the redistricting fight in the great commonwealth of Virginia is ramping up as Democrats are trying to dilute Republican votes across the commonwealth. If successful, the party will be poised to hold 10 of Virginia's 11 U.S. House seats this November.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny explains how the outcome of this statewide fight could have national implications.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Republicans are imploring Virginians to vote no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you going to vote? No.
ZELENY: Democrats are urging them to say yes.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Are you ready to stop the MAGA power grab?
ZELENY: Virginia is the latest front in an unprecedented redistricting arms race. In a special election that ends Tuesday, voters are considering a Democratic olan to redraw district lines to help deliver the party four new seats in Congress, supercharging the delegation's power balance of six Democrats and five Republicans into a 10-1 advantage.
It's one of the most aggressive responses, yet in a year-long tit-for- tat that President Trump and Republicans began last year in Texas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn't start this fight, but I'm saying to Virginians, we need to finish it.
ZELENY: What do you say to people who may say 10-1 may be sort of unfair? Virginia is a pretty split commonwealth, pretty split state.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not as unfair as an occupant of the White House who said, I need to find five more positions, I need to find five more members of Congress. So, that's the unfair. ZELENY: Dolores McQuinn said she will never forget Trump's words that sparked a gerrymandering war.
TRUMP: I got the highest vote in the history of Texas, as you probably know. And we are entitled to five more seats.
ZELENY: After Texas acted, Democrats in California followed suit, passing a referendum aimed at flipping five Republican-held seats. A redistricting battle has since played out in states across the country with Florida still weighing whether to boost its Republican majority.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We have one of the smallest margins in U.S. history.
ZELENY: And that small margin is what makes House Speaker Mike Johnson and Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, so invested in the outcome here in Virginia.
JEFFRIES: We are making clear we're not here to step back. We're here to fight back.
ZELENY: Virginians have been bombarded with a massive advertising blitz.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Virginia, we are counting on you. Republicans want to steal enough seats in Congress to rig the next election and wield unchecked power for two more years.
ZELENY: With former President Barack Obama and other Democrats, once opposed to gerrymandering, now saying it's the only way to keep pace with Republicans.
TARA BOWMAN, VIRGINIA VOTER: I think the new map is absolutely horrible.
ZELENY: Tara Bowman is among the furious Republicans who would lose their current congressman if her rural Virginia home was suddenly in the same district as the Washington, D.C., suburbs.
BOWMAN: We have lots of farming small business, small farming, and I do not want my congressman to be from Fairfax. I mean, he -- no.
ZELENY: Another proposed Congressional seat has been branded as the lobster claw for how it curves around a neighboring district dominated by college towns and stretches all the way to the Potomac River in Northern Virginia.
JASON MIYARES, FORMER VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: If you have to use animals to describe what a district looks like, maybe you've gerrymandered.
ZELENY: The gerrymander is clear, but Democrats say it's justified score settling for what Trump started.
[18:45:03] PHILIPPA CLARKE, VIRGINIA VOTER: I look at it as is it fair in Texas what they're doing? If we as Democrats can, even the playing field in, you know, in another area, and I think it's -- it's okay.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY: So more than one million people have already voted in this race through early voting over the last month or so. And Democrats are dramatically outspending Republicans.
Jake, it really boils down to the argument of it being a Republican power grab or an overreach. But the question is, Democrats are, you know, not necessarily always for gerrymandering. But in this case, they say Trump started it. So, Virginia will finish it.
However, Florida also is the final state here in a couple of weeks could also decide to redraw their maps as well. Not exactly what we learned in our civics classes about --
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: No.
ZELENY: Once a decade you draw a congressional map.
TAPPER: And Florida's basically, jeff, correct me if I'm wrong and stay here. We're going to bring in "Politico's" Dasha Burns as well, the White House bureau chief.
Florida's basically waiting to see, Dasha, what happens in Virginiai. And if the Democrats win in Virginia, then Florida will fight that fire with fire. It's just like nonstop fire here.
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Yeah. And I mean, every person I talk to, whether they're a Democrat or a Republican, they tell me gerrymandering is horrible. It's bad for our democracy, but they're doing it. So, we got to do it, too.
Republicans have essentially given up the Virginia fight. They feel like Democrats are poised to win this one. And they have a whole lot of other problems that they need to tackle. And so, they're kind of throwing their hands up on this one.
TAPPER: And, Jeff, Democrats have outspent Republicans by more than $30 million on this. As you point out, why such a disparity?
ZELENY: Well, look, Democrats are very eager for these four seats in Virginia, and they believe that its a very winnable thing. I mean, were just a few months after a dramatic Democratic victory last fall when Abigail Spanberger won. She is the Democratic governor who campaigned as more of a moderate. She's been fairly muted in this.
She will be campaigning this weekend. She's holding a virtual rally this evening. But Democrats believe that this is effectively the way to make it all a wash. Texas got five extra seats. California got five seats, a few others along the way.
But if Florida adds more, this is a Democratic insurance policy, basically, but a lot of it is dark money. A lot of it is undisclosed donors. So again, not exactly a lot of high-minded good civics going on here.
But again, Democrats argue you have to fight fire with fire. And Trump started it because he was worried about the outcome of the midterm elections. That's what we're talking about --
BURNS: By the way, Texas -- the Texas redistricting may not actually work out the way that Republicans have been hoping for. There's a lot of concern now that the way Texas has been redrawn might end up benefiting.
TAPPER: Well, and that's because they were excited about how well Trump did with Hispanics in 2024. And now, a lot of this --
BURNS: That is not guaranteed beyond Trump at all.
TAPPER: It's crazy stuff. And I have to say, as somebody who spends a lot of time in Virginia, that is not a 10 to 1 Democrat to Republican commonwealth, that is -- it's purple, blue-ish.
ZELENY: But right now, it's five to six.
TAPPER: Yeah.
ZELENY: And those maps are drawn in a pretty fair way. It got an A- plus rating by the gerrymandering group. So, the anti-gerrymandering groups. But the 10 to 1, the question of is it overreach or not. We'll find out on Tuesday.
TAPPER: So, another thing that's catching our eyes today is that President Trump just went after New York Mayor Mamdani on Truth Social. He wrote in part, quote, "Sadly, Mayor Mamdani is destroying New York. It has no chance."
What's he talking about? Tax policies.
BURNS: I mean, look, I this is kind of the if you are a "Friends" fan like the Ross and Rachel on again/off again. Is it a bromance? Are they in break up mode?
It's not surprising that those two would be clashing. It was much more surprising when they were super buddy-buddy in the -- in the Oval Office. I mean, Mamdani's policies are very far from the president's own. They're very similar in sort of charisma and the ability to galvanize people that might not otherwise be interested in politics, their tactics with voters are kind of similar, but in terms of how they would actually, you know, run a city like New York, which of course, the president has a huge affinity for. They're pretty far apart on that.
TAPPER: Trump would be Ross, is what you're saying.
BURNS: I think Trump would be Ross.
TAPPER: And Mamdani would be Rachel? BURNS: Yeah. He doesn't quite have the same haircut, but --
TAPPER: Not yet.
President Trump just landed in Nevada. Or he's expected to land in Nevada, stumping for his party ahead of the midterms. That's obviously a big battleground state.
The White House would very much like to reset the conversation to talk about tax cuts that are coming. No tax on tips, et cetera, et cetera. It's a war. It's a -- it's a political time that's been said, been dominated by war and high prices and economic gloom. And president Trump fighting with the pope.
Here's President Trump earlier today asked about high gas prices.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, they're not very high. If you look at what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon, with the danger that entails. So, the gas prices have come down very much over the last three, four days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I mean, first of all, this new metric of they're not very high if you look at what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon, there was not a nuclear weapon.
[18:50:00]
But even so, like, that's not how people think about high prices.
Is he capable of staying on message in any way? I mean, they put him out in the midterms -- and on the campaign trail for the midterms.
BURNS: No, no, he's not -- like that -- that's just not just my assessment. This is what I'm hearing from Republican operatives and allies of the president all across the spectrum. There was a -- Bryan Lanza, who was a senior advisor to the president.
TAPPER: We have him on all the time.
BURNS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he said, look, the roadmap to a victory in the midterms is the economic message. And the president is not capable of staying on that roadmap. And even when he does talk about economics, he says they're not that high. Remember back to last year when he was talking about how kids don't need that many pencils or that many dolls, even when they have him.
TAPPER: You don't need 11 dolls. You need two.
BURNS: Exactly. So, you just can't control that. And now you have Iran, you have the fight with the pope, you have actual distractions, let alone, you know, trying to get him to say the right things.
ZELENY: I suspect we hear that quote, they're not that high, again, in Democratic ads --
BURNS: That's right.
ZELENY: -- particularly if gas prices don't go down. Because the reality is we hear that all the time. They are high, not just for people driving for the price of diesel for truckers, lifting up the price of goods and things. So that sounded a little bit out of touch there I think.
BURNS: I mean, ironically, they had the whole DoorDash stunt. It is DoorDash drivers that are having a hard time filling up their gas tanks, even if they're getting those tax refunds.
TAPPER: Oh, yeah. The high gas prices hit working people the worst. They're the ones that have to travel the farthest. And of course, then there's diesel costs for people who transport things.
Anyway, Jeff, Dasha, good to see both of you. Thanks so much for being here.
Our new movie about the king of pop, Michael Jackson, it's about to hit theaters, but there will be a huge and controversial part of his life that might be missing from the film. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:53]
TAPPER: Our pop culture lead now the biopic of one of the biggest stars to ever walk the planet or moonwalk the planet, is about to hit theaters, but as CNN Stephanie Elam explains, the controversies that followed Michael Jackson for decades cost the production company behind the film millions of dollars in the end.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP ICON: I'm just getting started.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Michael hits the big screen, the king of pop will moonwalk, thrill and don that iconic glove. But don't expect this.
JACKSON: I asked all of you to wait and hear the truth.
ELAM (voice-over): Anything related to the child molestation accusations that followed Jackson for decades?
BRENT LANG, VARIETY EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Initially, the film was supposed to actually start in 1993, as police cars were showing up to Neverland Ranch and Michael Jackson's house was going to be searched for evidence.
ELAM (voice-over): "Variety" reports the filmmakers were stunned when Jackson's estate found a clause in the 1994 settlement with accuser Jordan Chandler that derailed the nearly finished film. LANG: And there was a clause in that agreement that prevented anybody
from making a film that involved Chandler as a character or that depicted a Chandler-like character in that film. Our sources are saying that the reshoots cost at least $10 million to $15 million.
DAVID DANIEL, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: Last things that we see are the bad tour.
ELAM (voice-over): CNN producer David Daniels saw the final version.
DANIEL: It is not a look how wonderful everything was. No blemishes, no problems. It is legendary that Joe Jackson ran the family with an iron hand. There's a very famous incident that injured Michael while he was filming a soda pop commercial.
ELAM (voice-over): But that may not be enough for some critics, especially since a 2019 documentary renewed attention to child sex abuse allegations against Jackson.
WADE ROBSON, JACKSON ACCUSER: He told me if they ever found out what we were doing, he and I would go to jail.
ELAM (voice-over): The Jackson family denied abuse allegations made by Wade Robson and James Safechuck in the documentary. Their attorney did not respond to CNN's questions about the upcoming film. Jackson was acquitted in an unrelated child molestation trial in 2005.
L. LONDELL MCMILLAN, FORMER JACKSON ATTORNEY AND ADVISER: I am hoping that this film will showcase the beautiful, brilliant life and love of Michael.
ELAM (voice-over): L. Londell McMillan is a former Jackson advisor and reps the Prince estate. He says in estates, first priority is to protect its own legacy.
MCMILLAN: While it may make some people scream and yell, you'll see millions of others on the other spectrum stating, why would you let that in if the facts have not been proven?
ELAM (voice-over): "Michael" is already tracking to be a box office smash, as was the recent Broadway play "MJ: The Musical", made by a different team.
ROBERT FINK, MUSIC PROFESSOR, UCLA HERB ALPERT SCHOOL OF MUSIC: They still think of him as this incredibly talented child.
ELAM (voice-over): Some music experts say Jackson's link to generations of childhood memories allows many fans to separate the flawed man from the artistic icon.
FINK: He gets bracketed with some of the things I think he really love, like Disney movies and other kind of childhood, Peter Pan as, kind of that halo of childhood. And everybody was a kid once.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ELAM: Now, it should be noted, Jake, that the Jackson estate initially approved the inclusion of those darker allegations. And now, after admitting its oversight, "Variety" reports the estate paid for the reshoots, not the studio.
Meantime, the two accusers in that documentary by HBO, which is a sister company to CNN, have sued companies tied to Jackson, arguing they didn't do enough to protect the plaintiffs. Those companies deny the claim. That case is expected to go to trial next year, Jake.
TAPPER: Fascinating story and just the latest. And sadly, the last piece of journalism you're doing for THE LEAD, because, Stephanie, I'm told this is your last day. And I just have to say, I first met you covering the tornadoes in Oklahoma. And I think 2013, 2014.
ELAM: '13, '14, yeah.
TAPPER: And I saw you in Ferguson, you and Sidner were just like two of the gutsiest reporters I'd ever seen during all that craziness. We're really going to miss you.
I do not know what's going on, but when I take over the company, I will bring you back.
ELAM: Thank you, Jake. I appreciate all of you at THE LEAD.
TAPPER: We really are going to miss you. Best of luck and stay in touch.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.
