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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Hegseth Touts U.S. Naval Blockade Amid Strait Of Hormuz Standoff; Report: Virgnia Giuffre's Family Holds Memorial One Year After Her Death; DOJ Drops Criminal Probe Into Jerome Powell; Federal Appeals Court Upholds Life Term For Times Square Suicide Bomber But Overturns Top Count; Politicians And Journalists Descend On D.C. For Correspondents Dinner. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 24, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: You can watch much more of The Arena tomorrow. The Arena Saturday airs at noon and again at 4:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. I do hope that you will take some time in your weekend to join us, but for now, don't go anywhere. The Lead with Jake Tapper starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All signs point to a critical weekend ahead between the U.S. and Iran. The Lead starts right now.

First thing tomorrow morning, wheels up for a U.S. delegation headed to Pakistan. But will they get to meet face and face to face with the top Iranian official who is already there? That is the big question at this hour as the Pentagon lays out how it is trying to assert control of the Strait of Hormuz and beyond.

And the family of Virginia Giuffre, the Epstein survivor who died by suicide last year, marking one year since her death tomorrow. And we're going to talk with them about the report that alleges even more Epstein crimes after Giuffre tried to sound the alarm about the now dead pedophile.

Plus, media and influence in 2026. We're going to talk to some of the new voices getting access these days, including a YouTube influencer and the CEO of the dating app Grindr.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We start in our World Lead. The White House says Iran now wants to talk and find a path deal. That's what they say anyway. President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff and President Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner are going to head to Pakistan to negotiate with Iranian officials tomorrow morning, the White House confirmed.

Now, the president told Reuters this afternoon that in his view, the Iranians are planning an offer that is meant to satisfy U.S. demands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President, as I've said many, many times to all of you, always willing to give diplomacy a chance. We hope progress will be made and we hope that positive developments will come from this meeting. We've certainly seen some progress from the Iranian side in the last couple of days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The White House press secretary said that Vice President Vance will remain in the U.S. this weekend but is prepared to travel if negotiations progress. While the diplomatic path to peace appears to be opening back up, the Strait of Hormones remains closed off.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth touted the successful success of the U.S. Naval blockade against Iranian vessels this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: No one sails from the Strait of Hormuz to anywhere in the world without the permission of the United States Navy. To the regime in Tehran, the blockade is tightening by the hour. We are in control. Nothing in, nothing out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Of course, at this point, no one sails from the Strait of Hormuz to anywhere in the world without the permission of the Iranians in either. And that's why your gas prices are a dollar higher per gallon than they were in February.

Now in that Pentagon briefing, the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Dan Kaine also revealed new details about ships that had been intercepted by the U.S. three so far in one week. Now CNN's Brian Todd is going to break down for us what we're learning about these operations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not attempt to breach the blockade.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New details from the Pentagon on a campaign to keep the pressure on Iran with the U.S. blockade of Iranian ports and to expand interdictions beyond the Persian Gulf.

HEGSETH: To the regime in Tehran, the blockade is tightening by the hour. We are in control. Nothing in, nothing out.

TODD (voice-over): More than 30 ships have been turned around by the blockade so far, according to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. But he says the blockade is also now going global. U.S. forces seizing what Hegseth called two Iranian Dark fleet ships that had made their way into the Indian Ocean. Vessels which Hegseth said had left Iranian ports before the blockade went into effect.

HEGSETH: They thought they'd made it out just in time. They did not.

TODD (voice-over): The first ship seized by U.S. warships was the massive tanker Tifani on April 20. According to Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman General Dan Caine, the sanctioned vessel was transporting Iranian oil at the time.

GEN. DAN CAINE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: At approximately 11:30pm Eastern Time, U.S. military forces and law enforcement forces also went to the ship via rotary wing platforms for fast roped onto her deck and secured her.

TODD (voice-over): Two days later, a similar interdiction of what he called the stateless tanker the Majestic X. As with the seizure of the Tifani video of the operation issued by the Pentagon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motor vessel Majestic X, we intend to conduct the boarding of your vessel.

TODD (voice-over): U.S. forces then seen rappelling onto the deck of the Majestic X.

CAINE: Both ships, the Tefani, the Majestic X and their crews remain in U.S. custody.

TODD (voice-over): Those operations coming on the heels of a U.S. destroyer firing on then seizing the Iranian cargo ship, the Touska.

[17:05:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motor vessel Touska.

TODD (voice-over): After U.S. officials said the Touska ignored repeated warnings to stop.

That means the U.S. forcibly seized three large Iranian-linked vessels within the span of four days. Meanwhile, Hegseth says Iran's fleet of speedboats operated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps has been severely downgraded to what he calls a group of criminals on the high seas.

HEGSETH: The IRGC specifically has been reduced to a gang of pirates with a flag.

TODD (voice-over): Hegseth says those speedboats are still harassing civilian ships.

REAR ADMIRAL MARK MONTGOMERY (RET.) FOUNDATION OF DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: These ships can do damage. They could have a boarding party like we've seen where you know, they put ropes and ladders across and board the ship and take control of the pilothouse. They could also just launch weapons inside a ship using rocket propelled grenades or something like Javelin anti-tank weapons and do real damage to the ship.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Now, I asked retired Admiral Mark Montgomery, if the U.S. resumes combat operations, would it be stretching U.S. forces too thin to engage in combat, enforce the blockade and conduct those wide ranging interdictions of tankers? Admiral Montgomery said the U.S. could still pull that off. They still could launch about 500 to 700 strikes a day. But he also said the Iranians would of course ramp up their own

retaliation, firing cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and drones at American ships. Jake, that kind of escalation could be right around the corner.

TAPPER: All right, Brian Todd, thanks so much. And joining us now is Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon. He has served nearly 30 years in the U.S. Air Force. He retired as a brigadier general.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us. So the President and his administration keep asserting that the U.S. has total control of the Strait of Hormuz. Do they?

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): We can't say total because our shipping or the oil ships can't make it through right now. So the Iranians do have some level of interdiction to target cargo -- wise in the Pentagon to keep these ironclad blockade in effect until Iran starts letting these ships through.

I mean, for a while our ships were not going through, but the Iranian ships were. That's unsatisfactory. Can't let that happen. So I think this blockade's got to continue until Iran backs down.

TAPPER: Secretary Hagseth bashed our European allies during his press conference this morning. He said that they're not helping at all. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: We are not counting on Europe, but they need the Strait of Hormuz much more than we do and might want to start doing less talking and having less fancy conferences in Europe and get in a boat. This is much more their fight than ours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, he says that, but I know the perspective from the Europeans is that the Strait of Hormuz was open before the U.S. launched this attack on February 28th. And it's up to the U.S. to get it reopened.

BACON: You know, it's a shame that, you know, the secretary in a note to Vice President Vance said that he said how much he loathed Europe. And you can just see it in the tone of, you know, his conduct, you know, the negative attitude that he has towards our allies.

I really think these comments along with the President's comments are damaging. NATO has been the most successful alliance and history and they keep saying they're not doing anything, but it's not true. I mean, I -- in a hearing, I asked point blank, are we flying out of

bases in Europe and doing missions direct into Iran? And the answer is yes.

So they've been given us basing access, but yet we give them like zero credit for it. And to your point, we didn't coordinate with our friends before we did this operation. Then Iran shuts down the straits. I get their concern. You know, it's -- this is something that we initiated. I think it was well overdue.

By the way, I support going after Iran after they killed a thousand Americans. But you got to understand our European friends position as well that they weren't coordinated with, didn't have a vote on this thing. So I do hope they do more. But we should have some understanding of what they're thinking.

But we can't even go farther back. When you threaten Greenland, you threaten Canada, you make fun of European leaders and their spouses, you're going to have a hard time getting them on board to help. And we got to realize there's damage. When you say bad things and do bad things threaten your allies, there's consequences.

TAPPER: There's been a lot of tumult at the Pentagon. And just this week, Secretary Hegseth and the President fired the Navy Secretary John Phelan. Yet another dismissal of a top military official, a flag officer under Hagseth. And there have been a number of them during the war. What's your take on all this?

[17:10:06]

BACON: Well, I think it's negative and it creates instability, uncertainty in the Pentagon. And I happen to know that my colleagues, I want to speak for everyone. I know there could be exceptions that most of my colleagues on the Armed Services Committee had confidence in the secretary of the Navy. And some of us talked to him earlier in the week and had no idea that this was, you know, in the offing.

Well, first of all, I just think the secretary owes an explanation to the individuals that are fired, but I also think he owes an explanation to the American people. When you have this kind of level and the number of firing that we're seeing, this is not strictly Secretary Hegseth's Pentagon. This is America's Pentagon, and the taxpayers are paying the bills here.

We have a right to know why this is going on. But the net effect, it's creating instability and uncertainty.

TAPPER: Last question, sir. According to a new Fox poll, more than half of the American people, half of voters, say President Trump lacks the appropriate judgment or mental soundness or temperament to serve effectively as president.

Do you agree with the majority of Americans on that, that President Trump does not have those qualities?

BACON: Well, I've been a Reagan Republican my whole life, since I was 13. And Ronald Reagan ran against Gerald Ford in 1976. I agree and support some of the president's policies. There's some that I disagree with, like tariffs and Ukraine. I think it'd be much better Ukraine and dealing with much stronger against Russia.

One thing that is concerning, and some people tend to say, well, this is the way President Trump is, but he says a lot of things rationally and some of it very crude. And a lot of people say, well, that's just the way he is. And maybe if you're a strong supporter, you could turn a blind eye to it to say this way is.

But a lot of folks don't take it that way when you use the F word on Easter morning, when you talk about wiping out civilization, even though I know it was a negotiating technique he was trying to do. But a lot of people in the swing independent voters and our allies, they listen to this stuff and it, and it creates lack of trust. And I think that's what you're seeing in this poll.

TAPPER: Republican Congressman Don Bacon from Nebraska. Thank you, sir. And as always, thank you for your service.

Next on The Lead, the family of Virginia Giuffre as they prepare to mark one year since her death by suicide. The allegations not thoroughly investigated by law enforcement. We learned today but what journalists reportedly found out years later. We're going to get the family's reaction.

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

[17:16:54]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, there is some brand new reporting today revealing that it was not just the United States, but it was where there were unheeded warnings and law enforcement indifference and a failure to thoroughly investigate dead pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. That happened in the UK too.

This report not from law enforcement today, instead from the BBC. BBC journalists dug through the Epstein files released by the U.S. Justice Department and matched up receipts and emails and bank records. And those journalists say they found evidence of four apartments rented by Epstein.

Now six women say they were survivors of Epstein's abuse in those rentals. The BBC wrote, quote, some of the women housed in the London flats were coerced by Epstein to recruit others into his sex trafficking scheme as well as regularly transported to Paris by Eurostar to visit him, according to emails in the files, unquote.

The BBC adds these women were brought to the U.K. after London police decided to not investigate allegations in 2015 made by Virginia Giuffre, an Epstein survivor who died by suicide. Tomorrow marks one year since her death.

Joining us now to discuss Virginia's brother and sister in law, Sky and Amanda Roberts. They're here in Washington DC. They're going to hold a memorial for Virginia tomorrow. So let me start with first of all, how are you doing and what is going to happen at the memorial?

SKY ROBERTS, BROTHER OF VIRGNIA GIUFFRE: Yes, well, thank you for asking that. I think every day is a little bit of a mixed bag of emotions right now. I find myself crying a little bit more than I probably should.

TAPPER: Because of this week. ROBERTS: This week means a lot. I mean, this is the week of her

passing. I mean, tomorrow marks the one year anniversary and so that's just difficult in its own. But it's also like what it means, you know, we -- I think what tomorrow really represents is for the survivor community to take a day.

I mean, this isn't just for Virginia, it's for the world of survivors. Take a day and take a step back and let's appreciate what survivors were able to do this year. Let's appreciate what Virginia was able to do and trailblaze through when everybody else told her she couldn't do it.

TAPPER: Yes.

ROBERTS: That's what tomorrow really represents and we want to share it with the world. Anybody's welcome to it. It's a visual on the national monument. It'll be absolutely beautiful for her, but also a lot of her survivor sisters will be there as well. And we're excited to share that moment with the world.

TAPPER: What are you looking forward to?

AMANDA ROBERTS, SISTER OF VIRGNIA GIUFFRE: I'm looking forward to that moment of unity. And I feel like, you know, we come here so often and it's just to fight, it's to advocate. And we're always feeling like we're pressed against the wall sometimes. But survivors deserve that moment of joy, of pride, of celebration, of sisterhood, of healing.

There will be grief, of course, there, but I think it's so important to honor the ones that leave you with life and joy.

TAPPER: This comes once again after Virginia has been proven correct posthumously. What is your reaction to the BBC's report that the police in the U.K. did not investigate your sister's 2015 allegation that she'd been a victim of international trafficking in London?

S. ROBERTS: Yes, I mean, this is a systematic failure across countries.

[17:20:02]

I mean, this is why it's a global sex trafficking operation. And it scales past just sex trafficking. There's so many other crimes that have likely been committed outside of just this. But I mean, if they would have just believed Virginia when they -- when she first came forward, it could have prevented years and years of more abuse, just like when Maria Farmer came forward in 1996 with the FBI and they did the same thing. So

it's just another -- it's just another mark of the cover up and it shows that we have some real change that needs to happen, which is why it's important to have the President of the United States and the King of England, who will be here next Monday, really acknowledge this situation, that there was a systematic failure here and that it can never happen again. TAPPER: And Amanda, the other news this week, the Inspector General at the Justice Department is launching an investigation into how the Justice Department handled Epstein's files, focusing on the department's process for withholding material and from how they redacted. A lot of critics say there was over redaction of potential perpetrators and under redaction of survivors.

What are you hoping that this report will reveal?

A. ROBERTS: I really hope that it answers a lot of questions and that it brings to light what we expect to see and that is truly the violation of the law. We truly believe the DOJ violated the law in that way, exposing survivors. They had multiple attempts to right those wrongs and still there are survivor information in those files. So we're looking for accountability in that -- in that way.

So I think it's very important. I think it's also a victory for survivors. It just shows how we continue to push and expose what's really happening here and hopefully it moves our government out act.

TAPPER: And some odd and disconcerting news. The chairman of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer, he told POLITICO on Wednesday that there are some members of his committee open to the idea of the President pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, the perpetrator of so many of these crimes, with Epstein if it would lead to her testifying and providing information.

Now, Comer said he was not among them and he didn't go into specific about who he's talking about. But what was your reaction when you heard that?

S. ROBERTS: So when Amanda and I and other survivors come to D.C., we do a lot of -- we do a lot of advocating, but we do a lot of meetings with various Republicans and Democrats. And I can tell you wholeheartedly there are a handful of Republicans that genuinely care about this. They genuinely want to do something, but I think they just feel party constraints and what a disservice it would be to survivors. That's not justice for survivors by pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell.

Really, at the end of the day, the, the president needs to be talking about ruling out a pardon, right. That we shouldn't be going down the same rabbit hole we were going down before. She was convicted of sex trafficking minors.

TAPPER: Yes.

S. ROBERTS: And she shouldn't be spending her days in a minimum security prison with puppies. She should be in a maximum security prison not being talked about being pardoned.

TAPPER: Sky and Amanda Roberts, thank you so much. I hope tomorrow is meaningful. I hope it's healing may Virginia's memory be a blessing. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for talking to us.

A reminder, if you or anyone you know is in a crisis, please call or text 988 to reach the 24-hour suicide crisis lifeline. That's 988. There is help for you. I promise. There is love for you.

Still ahead tonight on The Lead, the Justice Department dropping its criminal investigation into Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell despite months of intense pressure from President Trump. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:28:00]

TAPPER: A major reversal in the Law and Justice Lead. Today, the Justice Department is closing its investigation into Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. Yes, that Jerome Powell. The one whom President Trump has called a numbskull and stupid and a fool. In fact, Trump went after Powell twice just yesterday on two different occasions in the Oval Office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He's been terrible in interest rates because he should have lowered interest rates. That's why I call him Jerome "Too Late," "Too Late." It's his nickname. Jerome Tulip Powell.

When you look with Jerome "Too Late" Powell, I have a real problem, because he should have been lowering interest rates a long time ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Keep in mind, President Trump is the one who nominated Jerome Powell to begin with. This whole investigation was over renovations at the Federal Reserve and the multimillion dollar project going well over budget.

Now, Jeanine Pirro, the U.S. attorney for D.C. announced that the case was closed on X or Twitter. She wrote, quote, this morning, the inspector General for the Federal Reserve has been asked to scrutinize the building costs overruns and the billions of dollars that have been borne by taxpayers, unquote.

Last summer, as you may recall, President Trump, with his hardhat on toward the building himself, Powell tried to push back on what the President saw as a project significantly over budge suspiciously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It looks like it's about 3.1 billion. Went up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1.

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: I'm not aware of that.

TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.

POWELL: I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. You just said you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.

TRUMP: It's a building that's being built.

POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now for months, President Trump has argued there was good reason to suspect funny business criminality.

[17:30:00]

But multiple Republicans even called foul on this investigation by Trump. I mean, I'm sorry, investigation by the Justice Department.

The most vocal perhaps Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina, who is retiring and doing his full YOLO. He's also a key member of the Senate Banking Committee.

Now, Tillis vowed to keep up to block the confirmation vote of Trump's pick to replace Powell as Federal Reserve chairman. That's a guy named Kevin Warsh. Here's Tillis on the renovations earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): There were a variety of reasons why this building went over budget. As a matter of fact, if we put everybody in prison in federal government that had a budget go over, we'd have to reserve an area roughly the size of Texas for a penal colony because of the way government projects work.

Let's get rid of this investigation so I can support your confirmation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, that was Tuesday during the confirmation hearing for Warsh, who Trump calls right out of central casting. Now, the Senate Banking Committee is made up of 13 Republicans and 11 Democrats. If every Democrat votes no on Warsh, as is expected, and if Tillis were to then join the no camp, that would mean that the committee was deadlocked at 12 to 12 and Warsh would not have his nomination go to the floor of the Senate.

Now, Trump has known this math since Tillis started voicing this protest back in January. Here's the president just last week when he was directly asked if he thought Attorney U.S. attorney Pirro should drop the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS HOST: Will you tell, or at least advise Judge Jeanine to end that probe, Criminal probe into Jay Powell said that Thom Tillis --

TRUMP: It's really more than that. It's more than a criminal probe. It's criminal probe, I guess. But it's also a probe on incompetence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So the probe was dropped today. And here's the big question, what changed? We can only speculate. But perhaps the president was finally convinced that it made more sense for him to get his chosen Fed chair confirmed and to let die a probe that by all serious accounts was completely baseless. That's the news from Washington.

Coming up next. Eight years after the dramatic man tried to detonate a pipe bomb in a New York subway station, why a federal court is dropping one of the convictions against him.

Plus, the intense confession that man gave to law enforcement to a law enforcement analyst that you will recognize. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:37:00]

TAPPER: In our Buried Lead, that's what we call stories that we don't think are getting enough attention. Flashback to December 2017. Akayed Ullah entered a New York City subway station and detonated a pipe bomb. It was strapped to his chest.

Now thankfully it malfunctioned and did not fully explode. Spared commuters, but it left Ullah with serious burns. At the scene of the attack was CNN's John Miller. He was then the Deputy Commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism at the NYPD and he had this exchange with the perpetrator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you sure now there's nothing else that's going to hurt anybody else? Nothing else.

JOHN MILLER, FORMER DEPUTY COMMISSIONER OF INTELLIGENCE AND COUNTERTERRORISM, NYPD: And did you do this? Did you do this for any particular group?

AKAYED ULLAH, TIMES SQUARE BOMBER SUSPECT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What group?

ULLAH: Islamic State.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Islamic State?

ULLAH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we would call ISIS?

ULLAH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you do it in response to any particular call?

ULLAH: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one?

ULLAH: They say attack here.

UNIDENATIFIED MALE: Attack here?

ULLAH: Yes.

UNIDENATIFIED MALE: What does that mean?

ULLAH: Attack USA.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, attack US.

ULLAH: That's right. Because over there, you guys bombing. You see a lot of people is dying over there. So if you do stop bombing, we don't have to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So Ullah told John Miller that ISIS inspired the attack. And Ullah was ultimately convicted on multiple charges, including providing material support to ISIS. He was sentenced to life in prison. So why am I talking about this now, nine years later?

Well, this week, a federal appeals court threw out the conviction for material support to ISIS, ruling that the evidence did not meet the legal standard to prove that Ullah acted under ISIS control.

Now, don't worry, he's still serving life in prison for other charges. But let's talk about this now. Joining now are CNN's John Miller and for some legal expertise, Elie Honig.

John, first of all, holy moly. You're at the scene of this attack. You kneel down to the man, he tells you ISIS inspired him to do it. That's extraordinary. How did that all unfold, and what is your reaction to this news this week?

MILLER: Well, I got the call that there had been an attempted suicide bombing in the subway, rushed to the scene, and that's Tom Galati, the chief of intelligence for NYPD at the time, who you hear speaking first. And what we are doing is we're conducting a public safety interview. Are there any other bombs? Are there any other bombers out there? Are you acting on your own, or are you part of a group?

To find out, you know, what else we need to do. He says he's acting alone, but he's acting for ISIS, which just makes that ruling that much more surprising.

TAPPER: Elie, do you think that the appeals court here got it wrong, and what do you think this could mean for terrorism cases moving forward?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I do think the appeals court, not this wrong. So the crime here is providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization. The scenario here is this individual did not have direct contact with ISIS, but he had seen social media videos where ISIS calls for people to attack the United States, as you see in that clip with John.

[17:40:02]

And if you look at the law, there's a lot of different things that count as, quote, material support. But one of them is personnel, including the person himself. So if this person says, I'm here to do your bidding, that's providing personnel, that's material support.

Another one is if you provide services. So if ISIS says, we want someone to bomb and you go bomb, that's a service. So I do think the court of appeals got this wrong. Unless and until the Supreme Court takes it and reverses it, and we don't know whether they'll do that, it means that this particular statute will be unavailable to prosecutors, at least in the Second Circuit, but that includes New York, where the majority of these cases are prosecuted.

TAPPER: John, according to justice department information, in 2017, while in custody, Ullah chanted, more is coming. Then he told the correctional officer, you started this war. We will finish it. More is coming. You'll see.

Given that, why wouldn't the Appeals Court view this as sufficient evidence that he was acting on behalf of ISIS, a terrorist group that was going to do more attacks?

MILLER: Well, the Appeals Court couldn't have considered that because it wasn't part of the trial. But I think, Jake, what it underscores is this is exactly the kind of candidate that ISIS propaganda is targeted to. Someone who is willing to take up arms and commit bloodshed with the hope of maximum lethality in the name of ISIS, which just again, makes it hard to fathom how the court could interpret that statute to determine that is not material support.

There was a dissenting judge who came out very much along those lines against this as well.

TAPPER: All right, John Miller, Elie Honig. Fascinating case. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, a YouTube influencer and the CEO of the dating app Grindr, how they're both reshaping media and influence in 2026.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:16]

TAPPER: Our Politics Lead, the annual White House Correspondents Association Dinner, it's a fixture on Washington's social calendar and has been since 1921. It's set to kick off in just about 24 hours, although the pre parties have already started. And as journalists and politicians and others descend on Washington to toast the First Amendment, that's what they're supposed to be toasting. Anyway.

There is one very notable guest who will be in attendance for his first time. President Trump, who we should note, is not going to be winning any First Amendment awards anytime soon. But this will mark the first time the President will attend the dinner in either term.

But before the dinner and after the dinner come the parties. And the hottest ticket in town for tonight is the party hosted by the LGBTQ dating app, Grindr. Grindr CEO George Arison joins me now. So, George, congratulations. Everybody says this is going to be the hottest party in town.

GEORGE ARISON, CEO, GRINDR: We will aim to not disappoint.

TAPPER: Are you going to live up to it?

ARISON: I'm sure we will.

TAPPER: OK, so how did Grindr find a home in Washington?

ARISON: Well, there are a lot of policy issues that really matter to Grindr's users, whether it's access to HIV medications or HIV prevention of medications, fertility, and access to surrogacy and getting costs of that down. And so we started a DC office about a year and a half ago, and we've been working with both sides of the aisle on a lot of the issues that we really care about. And we thought that this is a great coming out for Grindr to host the party now.

You know, I was born in the Soviet Union. I came to the US when I was 14 on my own. And I've had an amazing life in large part because of the system of government that we have here and the liberties that it protects. And so I think to be, you know, celebrating the First Amendment is really awesome because the reason gay people are where they are in life today in America is because of the First Amendment and our ability to petition our government and force the changes that needed to happen.

And so we thought it was a great time to both celebrate our community, celebrate the Republican in which we live, and celebrate the First Amendment.

TAPPER: So your company has been trying to position itself as politically inclusive, and you just talked about how you reach out to both sides of the aisle, which is smart because Republicans run Washington right now, so not talking to them makes no sense. I will say the Republican Party has historically not been the most hospitable to LGBTQ individuals when it comes to policy.

How does that affect your work?

ARISON: Well, there's certainly people in the party that might not be supporters of gay rights, and there's no way to deny that, but we've actually gotten a really awesome reception from a lot of people on both sides of the aisle.

Obviously, there are a lot of members of Congress or previous administration who are huge supporters and champions of gay rights, who are Democrats, but we also having really great relations with Republicans, both ones that have always been supporters and some that you'd be surprised by who engage.

And so we try to work with everybody, and the issues we care about are national and or global issues that everyone should care about. And we generally had really good conversations.

TAPPER: As Grindr tries to have a bigger footprint in D.C. what's your message to the Trump administration when it comes to your users?

ARISON: Well, Grindr's users are global, where 50 million people use Grindr every month all over the world 190 countries. In the U.S., obviously, gay rights are secure, but it's still hard to be gay in some places. But in 60 countries around the world, it's illegal to be gay. And that's a huge thing that the administration can have.

TAPPER: 60 countries.

ARISON: Yes. Can have a really big impact on.

TAPPER: Including a lot of U.S. allies, I might note.

ARISON: Yes, unfortunately.

TAPPER: Especially in the Middle East.

AROISON: In the last term, there was much more of a push on that in the Trump administration versus in this term. We also really care about HIV treatment and prevention and protecting funding for HIV medications. For preventive medications like Prep matters a ton. And that's something that we work on a lot, and so that's something we talk to them a lot about.

[17:50:00]

And then lastly, like, I'm very fortunate to have children for surrogacy. Grindr offers a $300,000 benefit to every employee to be able to have kids through surrogacy. But we want to make surrogacy costs tax deductible. They are fundamentally a health care expense. And if we could make them tax deductible, then you'd cut cost of surrogacy for everybody by 30 to 50 percent, which would be a huge win.

TAPPER: And it's pro family.

ARISON: Massively, pro family.

TAPPER: I mean, Scott Bessent is the first openly gay treasury secretary in the history of this country. Do you guys have any relationship with him or his office?

ARISON: We have very good relationship with folks at the Treasury. He's not the only gay person treasurer. There's a bunch of others.

TAPPER: I know, but it's -- he's a trailblazer. ARISON: Who are appointed in office. So we've had very good conversations there. I've not met with him, but obviously very much admire what he's achieved. I mean, it's an incredible thing to have a gay person in a job like that.

TAPPER: All right, George Arison, thank you so much. And congrats ahead of time to the party that everybody says they need to go to.

ARISON: Thank you.

TAPPER: All right, this weekend brings together not just traditional media, but also nontraditional independent media, YouTube influencers who boast millions of followers. And that includes my next guest, Adam Mockler of MidasTouch. His YouTube channel has more than 2 million subscribers.

Adam, how interested are your subscribers into tomorrow night's dinner? I know that you -- you're not attending your protest. You would protest attending it. But is there interest?

ADAM MOCKLER, HOST, "THE ADAM MICKLER SHOW": Yes, the people that follow me are very, very interested in me representing new media, representing Mockler Media, the company that I built, and representing freedom of press.

For as long as I can remember, the tradition of this party has been to celebrate the freedom of press. And there's an inherent friction at this party tomorrow because the person who's going to be sitting in that room has been perhaps the largest purveyor of attacks against free press in American history. I mean, every time he sees a female journalist, he personally attacks her.

He sued the Wall Street Journal over this crazy Epstein lawsuit that ended up getting shot down. He attacks CNN and every single loss or company with lawsuits. So I think it's very important. We're out there representing the freedom of press, freedom of speech, freedom to cover what you want. And that's what my followers are interested in. How can we push back against this creeping anti free press narrative?

TAPPER: And you think -- are you -- there are a lot of people who think that reporters shouldn't even go to the dinner because of everything you just delineated, which is just a small fraction of what President Trump has done in terms of his hostility towards the press. Do you think that we shouldn't be going to the dinner? What's your take on all that?

MOCKLER: Listen, I totally understand going to the dinner is part of the job. Showing face is very important. But I don't think we are obligated to show this administration any respect when they have treated media with maximum malice Ssince Donald Trump entered the U.S. political scene. Every single time he interacts with some journalist in the Oval Office, it is an incredibly combative interaction.

The Pentagon is actively removing career journalists and replacing them with MAGA influencers. So I understand showing up in the industry, it's part of the job to show face. But at the same time, I don't think that we should treat this like it's normal. This is not a normal White House Correspondents' Dinner. It should not be treated as such.

TAPPER: So for people who don't know, the dinner started in 1921 and every president has attended it at least once, starting back all the way back to Calvin Coolidge, I think, except for President Trump. He's the only one that never attended during his first four years. But that will change tomorrow night, we're told, as he comes face to face with the same folks he often attacks and heckles. Here is how his press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, previewed his speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: Without getting ahead of the president, he is going to give a very entertaining speech, not just for all of those journalists in the room tomorrow night, but for the entire country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What are you anticipating for his speech?

MOCKLER: I mean, he could be affable on stage sometimes. He'll likely be in a tired manner attacking the press, making some jokes. I just again want to reiterate this is not a normal situation tomorrow and it shouldn't be treated as a normal White House Correspondents' Dinner, even if he has a decent stage presence in the moment. It's important to remember when you're in that room that this is a man who has relentlessly, ruthlessly attacked the media's ability to say what they want.

So I'm very, very happy to be here during such a high magnitude week representing new media and free speech.

TAPPER: And as you note, the administration, the Trump administration, has cracked down the press throughout Trump's two terms just yesterday, the Pentagon's military newspaper, Stars and Stripes, fired its own internal watchdog.

So you're sitting in a new media outlet. How do you think legacy journalists are navigating the roadblocks this White House has continued to put up? Obviously, we're not a monolith, but what's your general take?

MOCKLER: I think there has been some great resistance in the sense that people continue to push back when they know things are wrong. AP put up a fight when they were banned from the room, and they continue to say we deserve to be here. That is very, very important.

Now, of course, there are going to be some outlets that metaphorically bend the knee and are too soft on Donald Trump.

[17:55:00]

But I think I've seen a lot of good assertive pushback from the media when it's necessary. I think that, you know, again, when it comes to tonight and navigating tonight, I just think it shouldn't be treated as normal.

TAPPER: Well, it certainly isn't normal, that's for sure. Adam Mockler from MidasTouch, thank you so much. Congrats on all the success --

MOCKLER: Thank you.

TAPPER: -- of your outlets and CNN, of course, we'll have special coverage of the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner. You can look for that tomorrow night starting at 8 and live on the CNN app in just a few minutes.

I'm going to talk to American journalist Shelly Kittleson, seen in a dramatic kidnapping video. She was kidnapped in Iraq by a pro Iran militia. She's going to give her first interview since her release just weeks ago. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, what may be signs of progress when it comes to negotiations between the U.S. and Iran.

[18:00:02]

The White House is sending Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff to Pakistan for talks with the Iranians.