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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Ceasefire At Risk As Iran And U.S. Trade Shots, Iran Attacks UAE; Three Dead In Possible Hantavirus Outbreak On Cruise Ship; New Details About Ex-Congressman Eric Swalwell Emerge; Supreme Court Temporarily Restores Access To Abortion Pills; Secretary Rubio To Meet With Pope Amid Trump's Clash With Pontiff. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 04, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, is the ceasefire between the U.S. and Iran still operative?

[18:00:02]

Is it in jeopardy? The two militaries are both firing shots in the Strait of Hormuz today as President Trump warns Iranian forces will be, quote, blown off the face of the earth if they target U.S. ships. I'm going to get a reaction from a former secretary of defense in moments.

Plus, three cruise ship passengers are dead and others are sick after a suspected Hantavirus outbreak on board. What we know about the Hantavirus and how it spreads, as the nearly 150 people on board are stuck at sea right now.

Also, the U.S. Supreme Court today temporarily allowing patients to once again get an abortion drug by mail, but it's far from their final decision. So, when could that come and have the justices given any hints as to how they might rule on that?

The Lead tonight, a warning from President Trump as both the U.S. and Iran exchanged fire in the Strait of Hormuz, Trump telling Fox in a phone interview that Iranian forces would be, quote, blown off the face of the earth, unquote, if they attempt to target U.S. ships in the Strait of Hormuz or in the Persian Gulf, a threat that comes following a post on Truth Social, where the president touts the U.S. shooting down seven small Iranian boats after Iran took shots at U.S. ships in the strait.

The attack's jeopardizing the already quite fragile ceasefire between the U.S and Iran, with peace talks remaining at a standstill, and also adding to the anxieties of the oil industry and U.S. consumers who could be staring down gas prices as high as $5 a gallon if traffic in the strait stays bottlenecked.

Let's bring in CNN's Nic Robertson, who's live in Islamabad, Pakistan. Nic, what is the status of the ceasefire?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. And, interestingly, the Iranians today, or later on this evening, are denying that they'd fired these missiles what the -- into the UAE, what the UAE described as cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and drones. So, quite a serious salvo injuring those three people there. But perhaps even more intriguingly, just this tweet coming in from Iran's foreign minister just literally in the last couple of minutes here, Jake, so I'm going to read it to you.

Events in the Hormuz -- in the Strait of Hormuz make it clear that there is no military solution to this political crisis, he says. As the talks are making progress with Pakistan's gracious efforts, the mediators here, of course, the U.S. should be wary of being dragged back into the quagmire by ill wishes, so should the UAE. It also goes on to say, Project Freedom is Project Deadlock.

You know, if there's some kind of disconnect in Iran between the foreign minister who's sort of been running point on the negotiations, he was the one here, he went to Oman, he went to Russia, and the hardliners, perhaps this explains this sort of discontinuity of Iran saying that they didn't fire these missiles into the UAE, didn't go toe-to-toe, ship-to-ship with the U.S. Navy in the Strait of Hormuz today.

But I think your question is, is there really a ceasefire? I think that's in the balance. Is there a diplomatic process underway here? Yes, I think there is. I have strong reason to believe that there is. The Iranian foreign minister today was working on Iran's response to the White House response to their position that the White House put back to the mediators to Iran over the weekend.

So, there is, I can say this, reasonable assurity right now that there is some efforts at negotiations and talks going on. How successful, that really isn't clear.

TAPPER: And, Nic, what more are you learning tonight about the flow of traffic along the Strait of Hormuz?

ROBERTSON: Yes. So, you have the CENTCOM saying that a guided missile destroyer did get through the Strait of Hormuz into the Gulf today. The Iranians saying, no, that didn't happen. Also, we understand from CENTCOM that two U.S. civilian merchant ships were able to get out of the Gulf through the Strait of Hormuz, carry on with their precious cargos. Again the Iranians are denying that.

The Iranians had claimed to shoot up a naval vessel. CENTCOM said that didn't happen, but they did shoot on those Iranian small attack craft or boats, whatever they were, fishing boats, remnants of their small navy vessels, sinking six of them.

So, it does appear that this track, this narrow maritime track, as CENTCOM calls it, is open, but it does have the guidance of CENTCOM, which comes in the form of Apache gunships and SH-60 Seahawk helicopters as well.

[18:05:00]

TAPPER: All right. Nic Robertson in Islamabad, Pakistan, thanks for the update. I want to bring in former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. Mr. Secretary, good to see you.

Amid this exchange in fire between the U.S. and Iran, how concerned are you that the ceasefire might be over?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I think there's a real concern. You know, Jake, I think the reality is that we may have crossed a line here. We aren't involved in anymore in a six to eight-week war that was going to end in a few days. I think this is beginning to smell very much like a forever war in which, you know, each side seems to be overconfident about themselves, each side is afraid of appearing to be weak, each side thinks that time is on their side, and each believes that the other is a paper tiger. That's not a good prescription for ending the war. It's a prescription for a forever war.

TAPPER: Do you see an off-ramp for a diplomatic solution or a ceasefire extension before fighting escalates further?

PANETTA: You know, if I had more confidence in the administration's ability to exercise diplomacy then I'd say yes, because, look, there are ways to put additional diplomatic pressure on Iran. After all, closing the Straits of Hormuz impacts on India, impacts on China. So, a diplomatic effort that brings other countries into this and puts pressure on Iran to move towards opening up the Straits of Hormuz. I think that, you know, that's in the cards if you're willing to commit to negotiating and if you're willing to commit to working with other countries as well.

This administration has not shown that they're willing to work with other countries to try to get the Straits of Hormuz open.

TAPPER: On Saturday night, President Trump was asked if he had seen the new peace proposal from Iran. I want to play the interaction with a reporter that transpired. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm looking at it up here. Yes. I'll let you know about it later, but --

REPORTER: Mr. President, last night, you said we might be better off not making a deal with Iran.

TRUMP: Well, I wouldn't have to. I didn't say that. I said that if we left right now, it would take them 20 years to rebuild. But we're not leaving right now. We're going to do it so nobody has to go back in two years or five years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I don't know how well you or any of our listeners could hear, but the reporter said, Mr. President, last night you said we might be better off not making a deal with Iran. And the president said, I didn't say that. He had, in fact, said what the reporter said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm so busy with the Iranians calling, trying to make a good deal, and we're not going to let that happen. But got to make a bad -- they've got to make a bad deal. But if they make a deal at all, because, frankly, maybe we're better off not making a deal at all, if you want to know the truth, because we can't let this thing go on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, not only did he say, maybe we're better off not making a deal, he got applause for it. Now, when he does this, obviously, it's confusing for journalists, it's confusing for Americans. Does it have an actual impact on the war?

PANETTA: Well, I don't think there's any question that when he sends a signal that we all may be better off not having a deal, then what's the alternative? The alternative is more war. And so you've seen Iran take additional actions with missiles and drones. You've seen the U.S. use our destroyers to try to go through the Straits of Hormuz.

We've blown up, what, six of the Iranian small boats. You know, what you're left with is continuing to try to use military action in order to make the other side blink. And the reality is that right now neither side is blinking. And so we are in a war that, as far as I can see, has no end.

TAPPER: Former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it, as always.

Nearly 150 people, including 17 Americans, are stuck at sea on a cruise ship tonight after a suspected outbreak of what's called Hantavirus on board. What you need to know about this virus and how it's transmitted, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:10:00]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, three people are dead and at least three others are sick after a suspected outbreak of what's called Hantavirus aboard a cruise ship. Now, the vessel is currently anchored off the coast of Africa with nearly 150 people on board while health officials try to figure out next steps.

Here's CNN's Larry Madowo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LARRY MADOWO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A suspected outbreak of Hantavirus on board this cruise ship crossing the Atlantic Ocean. The M.V. Hondius, operated by Oceanwide Expeditions, departed Ushuaia on the southern tip of Argentina over a month ago. Details of the suspected outbreak emerged as it was anchored in Praia, the capital of Cape Verde, an island nation off the coast of West Africa on Sunday. One American travel blogger on board issuing this tearful message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not just a story. We're not just headlines. We're people, people with families, with lives, with people waiting for us at home.

There's a lot of uncertainty, and that's the hardest part. All we want right now is to feel safe, to have clarity, and to get home.

[18:15:04]

MADOWO: Cape Verdean authorities have refused to allow anyone to disembark. However, local health authorities visited the ship and assessed two symptomatic crew members requiring urgent medical care. Oceanwide Expeditions said in a statement, there are 17 Americans among the 149 people on board, according to Oceanwide. The company told CNN it is, quote, currently focused on the health and safety of passengers and crew.

Humans most commonly get infected with Hantavirus through contact with rodents like mice or rats, especially their urine, droppings, and saliva, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC.

Early symptoms include fatigue, fever, and muscle aches, as well as headaches, dizziness, chills, and abdominal problems. Human-to-human transmission is rare, the World Health Organization says.

DR. SCOTT MISCOVICH, FAMILY PHYSICIAN: To have this many people clustered together on a ship, most public health officials would be looking and looking for human-to-human transmission, and I'm sure this is going to be investigated tremendously. But that would be where the arrows are pointing right now.

MADOWO: So far, it's not clear how the suspected infections on the ship occurred. The first death on board this ship happened April 11. The body of a 70-year-old Dutch man was taken to the island of Saint Helena, a remote island in the South Atlantic, according to South Africa's Department of Health. His wife later collapsed at an airport while trying to fly home and died in a hospital. At this time, it is not confirmed that these two deaths are connected to the current medical situation on board, the operator said.

The World Health Organization says it is facilitating between member states and the ship's operators on a full public health risk assessment, but added, quote, the risk to the wider public remains low. There is no need for panic or travel restrictions.

Larry Madowo, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And our thanks to Larry Madowo for that report.

Joining us now to discuss, Dr. Megan Ranney, the dean of Yale Medical School. It's so good to see you again Dr. Ranney. Last time you were here, we were talking about, I believe, a different virus all together, the coronavirus.

If Hantavirus is not normally transmitted from person-to-person, how is it possible, do you think, that multiple people on the ship have the virus?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, DEAN, YALE MEDICAL SCHOOL: Yes. A Hantavirus outbreak on a cruise ship was not on my top 50 or even 100 things that I would worry about for a cruise ship. I and other experts really think there are three possibilities here. The first is that a bunch of folks were exposed when they were traveling off the ship. Maybe they went to a cave or to a house that had rodent droppings that got aerosolized, and they all got infected there.

The second possibility, which would worry me if I were a cruise ship owner, is that there were mice or other rodents on the cruise ship that were running around and exposed a bunch of folks. The third possibility, and the one that most worries folks like me, public health experts, emergency physicians, is the possibility that there could be person-to-person transmission.

And, Jake, here's the important part. There has been a report of one strain of Hantavirus in Argentina, known as the Andes strain, which is known to cause limited person-to-person transmission. Many of us are worried that it may be that strain that got onto the boat and that may be spreading, but it's far too early to know.

TAPPER: So, Hantavirus is highly deadly. The CDC says more than a third of people who develop respiratory systems may then die. There's also no cure for Hantavirus. So, the passengers and crew who are being treated right now, and they may have the virus, what does that care, what does that treatment look like?

RANNEY: So, we would care for them just as we would for anyone with a severe critical illness. If they're having breathing trouble, we might put them in a medical coma and put in a breathing tube. If their blood pressure is having trouble maintaining itself, we'd give them fluids and medications to support their blood pressure. We might treat their kidneys. We'd probably give them antibiotics.

An important thing to know about a Hantavirus diagnosis is that it is tough to make. It's almost always a lab that we have to send out of the hospital. It's not my first, fifth, or even tenth thing on my differential diagnosis. And so you want to treat folks for everything that could be causing their symptoms while waiting for that send out test to come back.

TAPPER: So, passengers are not currently allowed to get off the ship. Once they finally dock, will there have to be some kind of extensive testing to make sure the virus is contained? What are the next steps look like?

RANNEY: So, trying to figure out what the next steps are as we speak. I will say this is where I am so grateful for other great public health experts, and particularly for the expertise of the World Health Organization and other folks that work on pandemic preparedness. As Larry said, this is a very rare virus. We've had less than 1,000 cases in the United States in the last 20 years. The fact that we have international experts working to figure out what's happening with the spread and what we should do next is amazing.

[18:20:06]

Most likely, when folks get off of that ship, there will be some quarantine, but it is far too early to tell. We'll know a lot more in coming days as we start getting genomic data about whether this spread between people, where it came from, and so on.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Megan Ranney, good to see you again. Thank you so much.

More than a dozen women coming forward for the first time telling CNN about interactions they had with former Congressman Eric Swalwell, a Democrat, ones that made them uncomfortable in private. CNN's Pamela Brown has those details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, new details from a CNN investigation into former Democratic Congressman Eric Swawell, who resigned last month and dropped his bid to be California governor after a former staffer told CNN and the San Francisco Chronicle that he had raped her.

Swalwell's attorney told us he, quote, unequivocally denies each and every allegation of sexual misconduct and assault. But now more than a dozen women have come forward to CNN describing interactions with Swalwell that made them uncomfortable over the last decade, from social media messages, to in-person encounters, to alleged attempts by the congressman to lure them into his hotel room.

Here's CNN's Pamela Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: From overly friendly to strange and predatory, more women are speaking to CNN after our exclusive reporting of sexual misconduct claims against Eric Swalwell. Their accounts, none of which have been previously reported, add new depth to a portrait of troubling behavior. CNN found that it unfolded as Swalwell ascended the Democratic ranks, even supporting women's causes.

He dropped out of the California governor's race and resigned from Congress last month after a former staffer told CNN and the San Francisco Chronicle that he raped her. An attorney for Swalwell said in a statement that he, quote, categorically and unequivocally denies each and every allegation of sexual misconduct and assault.

More now in this Situation Room special report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So, for the last few weeks, we've been digging into the sexual misconduct allegations against now former Congressman Eric Swalwell after CNN reported a former staffer accused him of rape. Swalwell denied the allegation, but resigned from Congress and dropped out of the California governor's race.

We wanted to know how far back Swalwell's questionable behavior went and how extensive it was. Now, more than a dozen other women have come forward and told us about how interactions with Swalwell, both online and in-person, left them uncomfortable.

So, their stories suggest a pattern of Swalwell using social media to contact young women, including Congressional staffers, and eventually escalating into flirting or inappropriate messaging. One woman described him cornering her as a young intern and slipping his private phone number into her back pocket. He then sent her flirtatious messages on Snapchat.

Another told us about Swalwell initiating contact with her on LinkedIn after she briefly served him at a restaurant when she was 19. All of this was allegedly happening as Swalwell built a public persona in politics as a fierce defender of women's safety. FMR. REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): I will always stand not only with the

women in my family, but every woman in America to make sure they're always free from violence.

BROWN: But throughout his years in office, Swalwell was different behind closed doors from behavior described by younger women as weird and inappropriate to his behavior with his Capitol Hill staffer who said he raped her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one protected me. I'm sorry. No one protected me and I don't want someone else to suffer because I know what I know.

BROWN: Swalwell's alleged behavior runs in stark contrast to his work in office where he pushed for transparency on members of Congress sexually harassing staff.

SWALWELL: I think we should unseal the names of anyone who conducted themselves this way, to protect every woman who works on the Hill from working in one of these offices.

BROWN: In 2018, he voted to ban sexual relationships between members of Congress and their staff. And when TIME Magazine honored the women of the Me Too movement as the 2017 Person of the Year, Swalwell praised the decision, good choice, TIME, he wrote in a Facebook post, touting his work to combat sexual harassment in Congress.

Despite his professional reputation, young women were seeing a different side to Swalwell through his use of social media.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was the Eric that I would staff, and most of the time, business as normal. And then there was the Eric that I would talk to on Snapchat, and that was a different person completely. BROWN: Early in his career as a congressman, Swalwell earned praise for his savvy use of social media to connect with young voters. In 2016, one media outlet dubbed Swalwell the Snapchat king of Congress, an app where messages disappear after they're read.

But beyond the professional work, he used the app to add young women and send them personal messages from his verified account, some of those messages which CNN reviewed.

Ally Sammarco described a similar playbooks wall while used with her on Snapchat where she says he once sent her a photo of his genitals.

ALLY SAMMARCO, ERIC SWALWELL ACCUSER: The conversation started out professionally. We were talking about how I could work on the Hill. He told me to send over my resume. From there, the messages shifted to much more personal, much more inappropriate and crossing a line.

BROWN: And while all this was happening, Democratic leadership was elevating his status in Congress. He eventually launched a bid for governor of California.

One through line we learned in our reporting is that a lot of these young women were in the early stages of their careers in Democratic politics, and Swalwell would often offer to help move them up the ladder, highlighting the power imbalance that some of these women felt in their interactions with him.

A lawyer for Swalwell said he doesn't deny having extramarital contact, but that he does categorically and unequivocally deny each and every allegation of sexual misconduct and assault that has been leveled against him.

Pamela Brown, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And our thanks to Pamela Brown for that report.

Today, the U.S. Supreme Court temporarily restored access to abortion pills by telehealth or by mail.

[18:30:01]

A final decision in the case looms. CNN's Elie Honig is going to break down what we know ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPE: In our World Lead, a new book captures the human face of the global refugee crisis. It's also a reminder of the sacrifice so many of our Afghan allies gave when helping U.S. forces fight against the Taliban prior to the chaotic withdrawal in 2021.

The book, Not Our Problem, The True Story of an Afghan Refugee, an American Promise, and the World Between Them, is out now. So, let's bring in the authors, former Afghan interpreter for the U.S. military, Abdulhaq Sodais, and U.S. Army combat veteran, Spencer Sullivan. Thank you both for being here, and thanks to both of you for your service.

The book really tries to show the shared burden that a U.S. service member and their Afghan ally have. Spencer, why was it important for you two to write this memoir?

SPENCER SULLIVAN, U.S. ARMY VETERAN: Well, first of all, Jake, thank you for having us. I know you've been a supporter of the book for a while, so it's nice to come on the show and talk about it with other Americans. It was important because Abdulhaq asked me to help him tell his story, not only on his behalf, but on behalf of other refugees and other Afghans who were unable to tell their own story. We wanted to make sure that the American public and the western audience in general were able to see very clearly the consequences of the war, how we treated our allies, and what came after the collapse of Afghanistan.

TAPPER: The first line of chapter one is striking. Abdulhaq, you write, quote, when I die and meet God, I will ask him why he made me an Afghan, unquote. You go into detail about the difficulties of life under Taliban rule, why you decided to serve alongside the U.S. military, your struggle to flee Afghanistan. You were granted asylum in Germany, but now you're here in the U.S. Why was it important for you to highlight the plight so many refugees face even now?

ABDULHAQ SODAIS, FORMER AFGHAN TRANSLATOR FOR U.S. MILITARY: Yes. As I had the experience as refugee, I mean, in Germany, when I got in Germany, I thought it's a good chance for me to write a book about refugee because I found it they don't have any voice. And after I talked with Spencer, please can you help me to write a book about the refugee experience, not only about refugee and also Afghan, Afghan interpreter, and because as I saw in Afghanistan to work with other interpreters in Afghanistan, and they have a really tough time, I mean, and they faced with many challenges in Afghanistan, and, yes, their life was in risk. Yes.

TAPPER: Spencer, life for Afghan allies here in the U.S. has been anything but easy since the U.S. left Afghanistan in 2021. The Trump administration has halted the U.S. resettlement program for Afghans who helped the U.S. in the war. There are now reports that the Trump administration is considering resettling Afghans in the Democratic Republic of Congo. What was your reaction when you read that story or heard that news?

SULLIVAN: Horrified, but, unfortunately, not surprised. You're referring to the 1,100 Afghans and their family members in Camp As Sayliyah in Qatar, 150 of which are directly related to U.S. uniformed service members. So, to deport Afghans to a country they're not from and have never been to and have no way of getting started or settled there is not only turning our back on our wartime allies, it's also telling existing U.S. service members that your families do not matter, that they are subhuman and less important than others we consider worthy of coming into this country.

So, it's a terrible tragedy, and I would urge the State Department and the administration to act to bring those people home to America.

TAPPER: Yes. A few weeks ago we interviewed a Marine, an Afghan American whose brother is in that refugee camp.

Abdulhaq, this is a tough question, but given everything that you now know, do you regret what you did to help the U.S. in Afghanistan?

SODAIS: I would like to say short sentences. When I work as interpreter in Afghanistan, it was in Zabul Province in 2013, when IED blew me up. And after second day, we're supposed to go on that mission. And I didn't refuse the missions. But, unfortunately, U.S. government refused my case more than 13 years. Yes. But I was so lucky that that I leave Afghanistan.

I had just two choice, two option. I was supposed to -- I must leave Afghanistan, or if I stay in Afghanistan, I was dead man. And after I decided to leave Afghanistan, and I faced with many challenges when I get Germany, my journey, and takes seven months toward here. I spend in jail, two, three times in jail, and also I got captured by police, border police more than 12 times, 12 times.

[18:40:01]

I was so lucky.

And also one of my friends, he work as interpreter, he got killed by Taliban, Sahib (ph), yes, in same platoon we worked in Afghanistan as interpreter. Yes.

TAPPER: The book, Not Our Problem, The True Story of an Afghan Refugee, an American Promise, and the World Between Them, is out now.

Spencer Sullivan and Abdulhaq Sodais, thank you so much.

SULLIVAN: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Is the White House trying to make amends with the pope? What we're learning about Secretary of State Marco Rubio's expected meeting with Pope Leo later this week. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Abortion is back atop our Law And Justice lead. The U.S. Supreme Court today temporarily restored access to abortion pills but a lower court ruling could severely restrict sending these drugs through the mail.

CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is with help us understand what's going on.

[18:45:04]

So, Elie, the U.S. Supreme Court has been asked to restrict abortion medication before, but that case ended on a legal technicality having to do with standing, and it didn't really address the big issue, right? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right, Jake. So back in 2023,

shortly after the Supreme Court overruled Roe versus Wade, the FDA during the Biden administration, adopted a new set of regulations that basically did two things. One, it said patients can obtain mifepristone by telehealth, by meeting with a medical professional over zoom or remotely rather than in person. And two, it allowed mifepristone to be sent through the mail.

Now, a group of doctors and anti-abortion activists challenged that. It went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where the court ruled unanimously 9-0 against the challengers. But as you said, that was a technical ruling based on what we call standing, meaning the court said, basically, we're not ruling on the legality of these regulations, but we are saying you're the wrong plaintiffs. You don't have enough of a stake in this. So if some other plaintiffs come along, they can try again. And that's exactly what's happening now.

TAPPER: So get us up to speed. There was a ruling out of the fifth circuit court on Friday, then action by the U.S. Supreme Court today. What's going on?

HONIG: Yah. So, new plaintiffs come along. The state of Louisiana, which argues these FDA regulations conflict with our Louisiana's state laws against abortion. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which covers the territory, including Louisiana, agreed with the challengers, said those regulations are unconstitutional. This is on Friday. And therefore, people cannot get mifepristone through telehealth, cannot be mailed.

Today, however, just a few hours ago, the Supreme Court put the pause on everything and said, hang on, we're going back to the status quo. So as of this moment, women still can get mifepristone through telehealth. They still can be sent through the mail.

And Justice Alito, who issued this one page ruling today, said, we're putting everything on hold. I want briefing by Thursday, and the hold only lasts until a week from today, Monday.

So I expect the Supreme Court to give us a more substantive ruling, really, within the next handful of days.

TAPPER: Let's turn to the suspect in the White House Correspondents Association dinner shooting. He had been placed in severe lockdown, was on temporary suicide watch, requiring a padded cell, no access to phone calls, books, et cetera. A federal magistrate judge today said that that was not based on any known medical assessment, and he actually apologized to the suspect, saying it was partly the court's role to ensure inmates are subjected to fair conditions. It's -- well, I was surprised. What did you make of it all?

HONIG: Yeah, I did a triple take when I saw that story, Jake. This is a ridiculous statement by this judge. First of all, to compare, this would-be assassin of the president to the January 6th defendants is ludicrous.

The January 6th defendants should have been prosecuted. That was rightful. However, most of them were prosecuted for misdemeanors, for nonviolent crimes. Even the most serious January 6th defendants were not charged with using a firearm in the course of violence like this individual were certainly not charged with attempted murder or attempted assassination. So that's a ridiculous comparison.

Second of all, it's perfectly fine for judges to make sure that inmates are being held under humane, reasonable conditions. But to apologize, as this judge did on the record, to a person who just tried to essentially decapitate the leader of our entire government, of our executive branch, that's ridiculous.

This person is entitled to due process. He's entitled to a fair trial, but not an apology from anybody.

TAPPER: Yeah. And the manifesto made it clear that he didn't think he was going to survive what he was trying to do. So that's the reason that he was put under suicide watch.

Elie Honig, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

My panel joins me now.

HONIG: Thanks.

TAPPER: Mike Dubke, there is a new story in "The Wall Street Journal". The anti-abortion movement is turning on Trump, and it says, quote, the ubiquity of abortion pills during the second Trump administration has frustrated anti-abortion advocates. What are you hearing from pro- life sources?

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: No, I think I think what was reported in "The Wall Street Journal" is exactly what you're hearing, that there's this frustration level. There's a frustration level with the Trump administration and the position that they've had in terms of this issue, especially with the president saying, I'm the most pro-life president that's out there.

Having said that, we also have to look back and look at the reasonable steps that have been taken by the FDA and others after the Dobbs decision, after the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And I think the -- from a purely political view, they view the status quo as a better place for the party to be in a better place for the administration to be. But the -- but the pro-life forces definitely are not happy.

TAPPER: How do you see the politics of this playing out?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I don't think that this is good for Republicans. Abortion, if well remember in 2018, after the Dobbs decision came down, basically animated the Democratic base. The fact of the matter is weve seen abortions actually go up with after the Dobbs decision because of the ability and the focus on being able to get it through telehealth and through mail.

And so that is actually what's upsetting the pro-life people. The fact that, you know, despite the legal win, the huge legal win that the right got on this issue, the fact of the matter is, it hasn't really made --

DUBKE: It hasn't had a net effect.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It hasn't had a net effect.

[18:50:00]

And so I think Democrats --

TAPPER: More women are doing it with this abortion pills, right?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: With these abortion pills. We should say these abortion pills are safe. They are effective. That has been said over and over again.

And so, to restrict them, you really have to say, what are you restricting them for? What is the reason other than you want to stop women from actually having abortions? And, you know, ultimately, they put this matter to the states. I mean, this was the entire decision that happened.

This is up to the states to regulate. And so to come now and say, hey, you can't do this, I think is going to be a tall order for the Supreme Court. That said, you know, this is something that Democrats can run on.

TAPPER: So, Secretary of State Marco Rubio is set to meet with Pope Leo on Thursday. This obviously comes after some of the back and forth between the pope and the president, the president calling him soft on crime, awful on foreign affairs, et cetera. Is this part of an effort to shore up support among Catholic voters for the president?

DUBKE: Well, I think -- I think that it is. It's also, you know, Secretary Rubio is playing the role of peacemaker here between two Americans. Weirdly never thought I'd say that about the pope, but, he's going there. And I think he's probably also going to, to reach out and say, look, there are other things in South America, for instance, that we can agree on Venezuela, Cuba. We need to focus on some of these other these other items.

But we're about to hit the one year anniversary of the pope being elected. And I think this is an opportune time to, to try to, you know, smooth over that rift.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm more interested in the fact that it was Rubio that's being sent there and not J.D. Vance.

TAPPER: Both Catholic.

DUBKE: Well --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Both Catholic and J.D. Vance is --

TAPPER: Maybe, Vance is a convert. The converts are Catholics, Mike.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. No, of course, of course they are. Oh my goodness.

TAPPER: Mike -- what are you suggesting?

DUBKE: Nothing at all. I just -- I just think if you're going to have a conversation about finding common ground, you might as well send in the guy that is really on the front lines of Venezuela and Cuba.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Come on, come on, come on. This is about this. You know, people reading the tea leaves of this, say that it actually shows that its a slight towards J.D. Vance and they're -- and they're pushing Rubio into this because, you know, he might be more effective.

DUBKE: Shake those tea leaves as many times as you want.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well --

TAPPER: So, Lulu, you had a, an interview with former Fox host, podcaster, Tucker Carlson's getting a lot of attention. Two-hour interview, is that --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. I mean, I sat down with him for three. But the -- what we put out was about two hours.

TAPPER: So here's just one clip that's getting a lot of attention

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You've been talking on your show about whether Trump is the antichrist.

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: I have not said that.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: On your show the day after Easter, you noted he did not put his hand on the bible during his swearing in ceremony as president.

CARLSON: Correct.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You said, and I'm quoting, maybe he didn't put his hand on the bible because he affirmatively rejects what's inside that book. And then on a recent show, you went further, saying, here's a leader who's mocking the gods of his ancestors, mocking the god of gods and exalting himself above them. Could this be the antichrist?

CARLSON: I actually did not say, could this be the antichrist?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: He actually did say --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He did say, yes.

TAPPER: -- that could this be the antichrist? And here he is saying it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARLSON: Here's a leader who's mocking the gods of his ancestors, mocking the god of gods and exalting himself above them. Could this be the antichrist? Well, who knows?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, I know the answer is no. He's not the antichrist. Anyway --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Sorry. I mean, I was surprised that he denied it because when we sat down, he had just said it like a few days before. So it sort of was surprising that he was trying to deny that he said it. Also, he's been saying stuff like this. He's been circling around that particular narrative for quite some time, suggesting that Trump has supernatural powers, suggesting that he has this ability to, you know, to sort of sway the people around him in a supernatural capacity.

So I was surprised that he denied it. I don't know why he denied it, because I think he has been trying to message to the millions of people who watch his podcast and listen to him, and his various outlets, that Trump is really sort of a Machiavellian figure who is at the, at, on the one hand, completely beholden to Israel. And on the other hand, you know, has this power over everyone around him.

TAPPER: Quick question, is Tucker running for president? Do you think that's -- that's -- what's going on here?

DUBKE: No, no, no, and especially not when you deny something that's already -- who denies things anymore because everything's on tape. This man lives on video. Why would you say --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: President Trump does.

DUBKE: Well --

TAPPER: He does it, too.

DUBKE: That's a different -- that's a different calculation.

TAPPER: We showed it. We showed it an example of it just earlier in the show.

Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it. What were learning tonight about the health of former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, after the 81 year old was admitted to the hospital. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:59:14]

TAPPER: In our last leads, we start with our health lead. Rudy Giuliani is breathing on his own today. Were told, after being hospitalized for pneumonia over the weekend, Giuliani spokesperson shared that the 81-year-old former New York mayor remains in critical condition after being put on a ventilator yesterday. He went on to say that Giuliani had been previously diagnosed with a restrictive airway disease after being at ground zero in the aftermath of 9/11.

In our national lead, nice shout out, shout out for front of the show, "Miami Herald" reporter Julie K. Brown, who won a special citation from the Pulitzer Prize board today. Julie was honored for her investigative reporting on Jeffrey Epstein, stretching back nearly a decade, her "Perversion of Justice" series is credited as helping to lead to the arrests of Epstein and his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell.

Our congratulations to Julie K. Brown on this well deserved honor.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, and on TikTok @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X and Instagram @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of the lead, you can watch the show on the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.