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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rubio Downplays Impact Of Iran War Gas Prices; Hegseth: Ceasefire "Is Not Over" Despite Mutual Attacks; GOP Rep. Chuck Edwards Faces Ethics Probe Over Conduct Toward Female Aides; Mother Of Israeli American Hostage Remembers Her Son In New Book. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 05, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:28]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So is Operation Epic Fury over? And is the US now all in on Project Freedom? The Lead starts right now.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio front and center in the briefing room at the White House moments ago, underscoring a new phase of the war with Iran. And as we see a power struggle over the critical Strait of Hormuz shipping channel. So who is really in control there?

And it is debate day on CNN in the race for governor in California, the scandals haunting some candidates and why tonight could be so pivotal in this fight for power and influence. Plus the jaw dropping offer from Senate Republicans who are ready to chip in a billion dollars of your money for the White House ballroom. Yes, the same ballroom that Trump said would not cost taxpayers a dime.

Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to start with breaking news in our world lead. It is Operation Epic Fury, the U.S. military operation launched against Iran February 28th, is it actually over? Well, it is according to the Secretary of State Marco Rubio in the middle of his briefing at the White House just last hour, he dropped this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Operation Epic Fury is concluded. We achieved the objectives of that operation. I'm not going to -- you know, we're not cheering for an additional situation to occur. We would prefer the path of peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So for context, Rubio then said the U.S. is moving on to what he called Project Freedom, which refers to President Trump's latest initiative of guiding commercial ships through the Strait of Hormuz in an effort to regain control of the Strait from Iran, guiding, not escorting. You will note in that clip you just heard Rubio did not rule out additional military action should anything go sideways. And things have to some extent been headed sideways since yesterday. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth this morning said the ceasefire with Iran is still intact despite the fact that the U.S. and Iran exchanged fire as the U.S. began guiding commercial ships out of the Strait of Hormuz yesterday and after Iran also launched missile and drone attacks against the United Arab Emirates or the UAE. Hegseth described the United States effort to guide commercial ships through the strait in a colorful way, literally a colorful way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: As a direct gift from the United States to the world, we have established a powerful red, white and blue dome over the strait. American destroyers are on station supported by hundreds of fighter jets, helicopters, drones and surveillance aircraft, providing 24/7 overwatch for peaceful commercial vessels. Except Iran's, of course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan "Razin" Caine said Iran has attacked U.S. forces more than 10 times since the ceasefire went into effect. Now, to you and me, that might sound like a ceasefire violation. The fire has not ceased. But when asked why it was not considered a ceasefire violation, the general described those attacks as below the threshold for restarting major combat operations. And President Trump today was asked what would constitute a ceasefire violation, if not that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do they need to do to violate the ceasefire?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, you'll find out because I'll let you know. They know what to do and they know what to do. We've -- what -- they know what not to do, more importantly, actually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It seems similar to what the president said in March, that he would know the war was over when he, quote, "feels it in his bones." The Secretary Rubio also addressed the high gas prices caused by this Strait of Hormuz situation up to $4.48 per gallon today on average. He found a new way to frame the impact, arguing that Iran must not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon because the threat that Iran has a nuclear weapon that could lead to even higher gas prices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIO: If Iran had a nuclear weapon and they decided to close the straits and make our gas prices like $9 a gallon or $8 a gallon, we wouldn't be able to do anything about it because they have a nuclear weapon. And a nuclear armed Iran could do whatever the hell they want with the straits and there's nothing anyone would be able to do about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: So let's talk about this with Anja Manuel, Executive Director of the Aspen Security Forum and former U.S. State Department special assistant under the George W. Bush administration. Also with us, Karim Sadjadpour, Senior Fellow with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Thanks to both of you for being here. Really appreciate it.

[17:05:13]

Anja, did an -- did Iran's actions firing on the U.S. 10 times, does that constitute a violation of the ceasefire agreement? And if not, why not?

ANJA MANUEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ASPEN SECURITY FORUM: Whatever you call it, this conflict is not over. So you can change the name of the operation, you can say -- you can declare the ceasefire on off, but what remains the case is the Straits of Hormuz is closed. We are blocking Iranian tankers, oil is sky high, American companies are suffering, and this conflict is nowhere near resolved.

TAPPER: Karim, take a listen to what President Trump said earlier today about the status of negotiations with Iran to end this conflict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They play games, but let me just tell you, they want to make a deal. And who wouldn't? When your military is totally gone, we could do anything we want to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Is that how you interpret the situation?

KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Not yet, Jake. This is obviously a country, a regime, which is suffering a lot internally. Iran is battling 70 percent inflation. Its currency is reaching new lows every day, disgruntled population, but at the same time, it keeps taking punches and it still is trying to close the strait.

You know, whether we start negotiations with Iran a week from now or a month from now, I think we have a broad idea of what the contours of those negotiations are going to be. They're going to be about Iran's highly enriched uranium stockpile, about its ability to enrich uranium, and about the future of the Straits of Hormuz. But that process is likely going to take months. The hope that President Trump has that he can kind of wash his hands of this and move on to another topic next week is way too optimistic.

TAPPER: And obviously the president's desire to wish cast. He wants the situation to be as he wants it to be, and he hopes he can will it into that situation. But shipping companies, insurance companies, who insure the shipping companies, they get to say who goes to the Strait of Hormuz. Is this idea that the U.S. will guide, not escort, but guide these ships through the Strait of Hormuz. Is that achieving what they want? Are the shipping companies jumping to do it? MANUEL: The shipping companies are in a very difficult position, as are the oil companies, the airlines. Everyone you mentioned are farmers. I used to be a board director of a shipping company. Even if you could open the straits completely tomorrow, it will take months for spot rates for tankers to come back to normal for insurance rates to come back down to normal. And you're seeing this now, you don't see a whole lot of takers on this offer to watch over ships as they go through the straits.

So we're not solving the problem yet.

TAPPER: Karim, Tehran has warned that it has additional ways to complicate matters for the U.S. if its control over the Strait of Hormuz is threatened. What might those be?

SADJADPOUR: Well, and you kind of alluded to this, Jake, that stability is something you don't appreciate when you have it and it's expensive stability. It's maintained by, you know, military power institutions, you know, security coordination. Instability, as we've now seen that Iran has mastered very, well, can be very cheap, right, because it takes them cheap. Mines placed in the Strait of Hormuz, $20,000 drones harassing $100 million tankers. And I think you're going to see Iran continue to use asymmetric power.

Because if you look at the Middle East, the countries where Iran was thriving were essentially five failing states, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Gaza and the Palestinian territories. And they do well in insecurity and instability. And our partners in that region, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, they want to be hubs for transportation, technology, finance, they need stability to thrive.

TAPPER: You talked a second ago about how bad the Iranian economy is doing. President Trump said earlier that he wants their economy to fail. How close is it to failing and what would happen if it did?

SADJADPOUR: When you're a nation state, you can keep printing money. So, you know, they're -- as I said, they probably have the highest rate, top two, three highest rates of inflation in the world, 70 percent. The currency keeps dropping on a daily basis. But at the same time, they have a monopoly of violence. And as we saw last January, they're willing to continue to kill a lot of their own citizens to stay in power.

TAPPER: How does this end and when does it end? I mean, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what would your speculation be?

MANUEL: Well, it could end in a number of ways. You could have imagined, for example, the Trump administration saying yes to Iran's offer of April 27 to say you lift the blockade, we open the straits, no financial sanctions, everything stays on, and then we negotiate all the rest, the nuclear program, et cetera. That would be one way to start bringing this to conclusion. Two, the president could say -- could declare victory and say, look, we've achieved all of our military objectives.

[17:10:12] TAPPER: Rubio kind of said that.

MANUEL: He kind of said that. But yet then they haven't agreed to end the blockade and open the straits. So there are ways to bring the active fighting and the standoff over the straits to conclusion. I think the negotiation over the nuclear program, what happens to Iran, the Iranian regime, that will naturally take a long time.

And Karim has said this often on this show, it's unclear who's even in charge in Iran. So that will take a while.

TAPPER: Thanks to both you. Appreciate having you here.

In Monterey Park, California right now the stage is set for tonight's CNN debate in the state's race for governor. Why a breakthrough moment is so important right now. And can some of these candidates recover from their respective scandals? We're going to break down the race next.

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TAPPER: In our politics, it's election time. So cue the music, please. The CNN election jam.

In just a few hours, seven California gubernatorial hopefuls will take the stage for CNN's primetime debate. This could not come at a more crucial time in the race. Ballots are just arriving in California's mailboxes. And in the golden state, all candidates compete in one primary. And the top two contenders, regardless of their parties, advance to the general election.

[17:15:13]

Now, according to the latest polling, former Health and Human Services secretary under President Biden, Xavier Becerra and Republican Steve Hilton are leading the pack. CNN's Kyung Lah gets us caught up before the big night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MAYOR MATT MAHAN, (D) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: Good evening. How are you all doing? This is an incredible turnout.

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you don't know this Democratic candidate for California governor --

MAHAN: We have to have priorities.

LAH (voice-over): -- you're not the only one.

LAH: Before this election, did you know anything about --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Matt Mahan? No, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before the election, I don't think so.

MAHAN: I've been very lucky to live the American dream here.

LAH (voice-over): Statewide newcomer and mayor of San Jose, Matt Mahan, thinks in this race that's not really a bad thing.

LAH: Is that a net positive in this race at this time?

MAHAN: I am out there introducing myself to the state of California. I'm enjoying it. People are reacting really well to the message. I think they're looking for something different.

LAH: It's a weird election, isn't it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a very weird election.

LAH (voice-over): In a state that usually loves weird, this year's race for governor has seen some unusual twists, making it unusually unpredictable.

ERIC SWALWELL, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.

LAH (voice-over): Democrat Eric Swalwell dropped out in the wake of allegations of sexual misconduct, including rape, allegations he's denied.

MAHAN: They're all wrong.

LAH (voice-over): Leaving a crowded field of candidates.

PROFESSOR CHRISTIAN GROSE, DIRECTOR, USC DEMOCRACY AND FAIR ELECTIONS LAB: There's just something over each one of them that is, you know, for some voters won't be that big of a deal but that maybe doesn't make them the perfect candidate.

LAH: In politics, is it possible to take back that first impression?

GROSE: I do think it's hard to, you know, change a reputation once you've established a reputation in a certain way.

LAH (voice-over): Some of the first impressions haven't been ideal. Democrat Katie Porter was captured on video yelling at a staffer during a Zoom recording in 2021.

KATIE PORTER, (D) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: Get out of my fucking shot.

LAH (voice-over): A viral moment that's haunting her from questions at debates --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as a person who frequently speaks about being a parent on the campaign trail, what would you tell your own kids if they ever faced a boss like that?

PORTER: All right. Hi.

LAH (voice-over): -- to the campaign trail where she's looking to make history as the first woman elected governor in the Golden State.

PORTER: I know I need to do better, and I have, and I've apologized many times. I hope Californians can look beyond one bad moment.

TOM STEYER, (D) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: Tackle the cost of living crisis or get the hell out of the way.

LAH (voice-over): Billionaire hedge fund founder and progressive Democrat Tom Steyer is seeing his old dance moves popping up in attack ads, reminding voters he spent $340 million of his own money on a failed run for president in 2020.

STEYER: I sometimes think I should describe myself as billionaire Tom Steyer.

LAH (voice-over): And made investments he says he now regrets but they made him rich.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now he's spending millions trying to buy the governor's office.

XAVIER BECERRA, (D) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: Vote for experience.

LAH (voice-over): There's former Biden era Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra leaning on his long political resume. His rivals argue it's the wrong kind of experience.

MAHAN: The secretary has never met a crisis that he couldn't ignore.

BECERRA: You're not wearing a mask, are you, Matt?

ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA, (D) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: As governor, I'll do everything I can to bring costs down.

LAH (voice-over): Former LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa is famously remembered for cheating on his first wife with a local reporter who covered City Hall.

VILLARAIGOSA: The details of this relationship are a personal matter.

LAH (voice-over): On the Republican side --

CHAD BIANCO, (R) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: I'm Sheriff Chad Bianco. Typical politicians don't have the guts to tackle our big problems.

LAH (voice-over): Chad Bianco, Riverside County Sheriff seized more than half a million ballots from the 2025 redistricting special election.

BIANCOL This investigation is simple, physically count the ballots.

LAH (voice-over): The State Supreme Court halted his investigation and Bianco's been hit with multiple lawsuits. Despite that MAGA turn, the sheriff didn't snag President Trump's endorsement.

STEVE HILTON, (R) CALIFORNIA GOV. CANDIDATE: Mr. President, great to see you.

LAH (voice-over): That went to Steve Hilton.

HILTON: What's going on here?

LAH (voice-over): Best known as a former Fox News personality.

HILTON: Are we ready to save our beautiful state of California?

LAH (voice-over): He's trying to win in a state where Democrats outnumber Republican voter registrations nearly two to one.

HILTON: They all seem to have problems one way or another. I think what matters is that we have change in California. What about Katie Porter?

And a bit of balance in our system, I think people can see it's not healthy to have one party in control of everything for 16 years.

LAH (voice-over): But after a two hour town hall, some voters left unimpressed with everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far, no one is speaking to me and therefore I'm not going to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH (on camera): So in order to capture that voter's attention and hopefully get him to vote for somebody in this primary, what these candidates really need to try to do at big debates like the CNN debate that's going to be happening tonight is to really have a breakthrough moment, a breakout moment. And, Jake, not just be in the 10, 5 percent, but to really get a coalition behind him. Jake.

[17:20:20]

TAPPER: Thanks so much. CNN's Kaitlan Collins and CNN's Alex Michaelson will moderate tonight's debate. It begins at 9:00 p.m. eastern, 6:00 p.m. Pacific. You can watch it live on CNN on the CNN app, CNN International or CNN en Espanol.

Still ahead here on The Lead, the request from Republicans that seem to contradict President Trump who said for months at the White House ballroom that he wants so badly will not be paid for with even one dime of taxpayer money. How Republicans are getting around that with a loophole, with fine print next.

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[17:25:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's all donors. There's not one dime of government money going into the ballroom.

This is taxpayer free. We have no taxpayer putting up 10 cents.

They don't get congressional approval when they build in the White House. It's totally separate and especially when it's a donation. I mean, the ballroom is a donation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Over the last few months, part of President Trump's pitch was that the White House ballroom would not be built with even one dime of taxpayer money. But now that might not end up being true because in the Senate, Republicans just requested 1 billion with a B, 1 billion with a taxpayer dollars in funding for, they say security purposes for Trump's ballroom project. That project, project is expected to cost 400 million. So a billion a little bit more than a dime. Let's bring in CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox.

Lauren, what argument are Senate Republicans using to justify using up to $1 billion of taxpayer money to fund this ballroom?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So what they are arguing this morning and this afternoon is the fact that this money is supposed to go to security protocols specifically. Their argument is that this has nothing to do with building the walls of the ballroom, the infrastructure of the ballroom. This is about money for security.

And I just want to read from the bill. It says the text allocates that this cash is for security adjustments and upgrades to support enhancements by the United States Secret Service related to the East Wing Modernization Project, including above ground and below ground security features. It later says that this funding cannot be used for non-security elements of the project.

And just to double down the Senate Judiciary Committee Republicans put out another statement saying that you have to read this bill text closely. But I would just point out, Jake, if you're remodeling a kitchen --

TAPPER: Yes.

FOX: -- for example, and you say we're not going to use any money from mom and dad for a sink, but we're going to use money for flooring, you could argue that if you're using money for one project, it's offsetting potentially the entire cost of the overall project. And I think that that is where Democrats are seizing on this and arguing this is not exactly what Donald Trump sold. I would also point out that there are some Senate Republicans who have advocated using taxpayer dollars to fund the ballroom. Senator Lindsey Graham has advocated for that. It is a tension point within the Republican Party and we'll just have to see whether or not Republican senators buy into this being not paying for the ballroom or not.

TAPPER: Is this likely to pass the Senate?

FOX: Well, this is the reconciliation bill. So John Thune has a really tight margin. He's going to have to make sure that Republicans are united on this. I think it's a big question. I mean, the other things that are packed into this bill is funding for CBP and ICE.

That is something that Republicans support. I will be really interested to see how people like Senator Lisa Murkowski, people like Senator Susan Collins respond to this.

TAPPER: Not to mention the deficit hawks like Senator Ron Johnson --

FOX: Absolutely.

TAPPER: -- or Rand Paul. Very interesting. Lauren Fox, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, new allegations of inappropriate behavior against a Republican congressman who was already under investigation. The reporter breaking the story is going to join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:32:57]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, another day, another investigation into inappropriate behavior by a member of Congress, this time centering around Congressman Chuck Edwards. According to Axios, the Republican from North Carolina told a young female staffer that she had, quote, written a complex chapter in my heart right before she was set to leave his office.

This is according to a handwritten letter that he sent her that was reviewed by Axios. Edwards already is the subject of a House Ethics Committee investigation prompted in part by his alleged conduct toward two female staffers.

Kate Santaliz of Axios broke the story. Also joining us is CNN's Pamela Brown, who broke another story about Congressman, former Congressman Eric Swalwell. Kate, tell us about this investigation and what you uncovered.

KATE SANTALIZ, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Right. So basically what we learned is that Chuck Edwards had an inappropriate relationship with two young female staffers who were both their 20s. And what sources described to me was inappropriate conduct that crossed professional boundaries and just created generally an uncomfortable work environment within that office. And that included personal gifts.

It also included a handwritten letter like you had mentioned personal travel. And then we also know that one of those staffers got promoted to a very senior position just two years out of school. So --

TAPPER: Two years out of college.

SANTALIZ: Two years out of college, yes. She got promoted to a very senior position so that it sort of centered around favoritism and created this uncomfortable work environment within that office. And we also know some of the gifts also he gave them jewelry, purses. One of the gifts included a custom puzzle that when you assembled it, it revealed an image of Adam Sandler and a handwritten note asking the staffer to attend a comedy show with him.

So it essentially was all these small romantic gestures, and he was trying to woo them. And that's what prompted this House Ethics Committee investigation that we know centers around sexual harassment and sexual misconduct.

TAPPER: I guess romantic in he was hoping it was romantic. To others, it might seem creepy. Pamela, you've been following Eric Swalwell, who stepped down last month after accusations of alleged sexual misconduct broken by the San Francisco Chronicle and by you.

[17:35:05]

And you have some new reporting that we ran on the air yesterday and today. Also some new reporting that more than a dozen additional women have come forward about their experiences with him. Tell us more.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: Yes, this was all happening, Jake, as Eric Swalwell's public profile was growing as a champion of women, as he was put into prominent positions by Democratic leadership on the. The Intelligence Committee. He was an impeachment manager.

As all of this was happening, all of these women we spoke to, more than a dozen say that Eric Swalwell made them feel uncomfortable in various ways through social media and beyond, ranging from sending flirtatious, sexually explicit pictures and videos on social media, including Snapchat, where the messages are disappearing, to allegedly asking some of these women to meet up with him and his hotel room.

And one of the through lines we found, Jake, me and the team, including Alison Gordon, Casey Tolan, and Isabelle Chapman, is that a lot of these were very young women who were just starting off in their careers, especially in Democratic politics.

And one of the women said, you know, on one hand he would say, what do you want for your future? And then would send me a message asking, what are you wearing? You know, one of them said that on his stories on Snapchat, he would have his congressional professional stories, what he was doing, and then he would be sending sexually explicit picture or video privately.

TAPPER: What do you mean by sexually explicit video? Like what?

BROWN: Well --

TAPPER: You can see it.

BROWN: -- dick pic and a massive video of him masturbating.

TAPPER: A video of him masturbating, and then it disappears because it's Snapchat.

BROWN: But this woman, one of the women we spoke to, who I want to note on this occasion, this was a consensual relationship. She said this was right before he ran for governor, that same month, he sent this video of him masturbating to this woman. And she actually took a screen grab of it, was able to record it, and CNN will just say verified that video without going into further details.

And then actually, even after he ran for governor, this woman said that he was still trying to meet up. But you have these other women, Jake, who were young, they're on Capitol Hill as an intern. One of them told us, and her mom corroborated this, that he slipped his number into her back pocket that he put on a card. He found one woman served him at a restaurant. It was just her first name, she told him. And he tracked her down on LinkedIn and she says, sent her messages that she found predatory and flirtatious and strange.

And as we were reporting out this story, Jake --

TAPPER: Yes.

BROWN: -- some of the women said that he reached out to them at two in the morning and asked them why they were sharing their snap messages with CNN. Now, I want to note, his lawyer, Sarah Azari, has said that he denies each and every allegation of sexual misconduct. He categorically, unequivocally denies those.

But she did say he's not denying having extramarital contacts. We know he's also under criminal investigation in California as well as New York after our reporting --

TAPPER: Yes.

BROWN: -- about his former staffer who said that he sexually assaulted her. He has denied the allegations of sexual assault.

TAPPER: Yes. And Kate, in just the last few months, we've seen multiple members of Congress get accused of sexual misconduct. So, the MeToo movement started in 2017. And you'd think that creepy old men would learn a lesson of like, you can't get away with this anymore. Apparently not. Apparently they haven't learned a lesson?

SANTALIZ: Right. That's exactly right. And the conversation that we've been seeing on Capitol Hill over the last month is honestly the biggest reckoning since the MeToo movement. We've seen a lot of outspoken lawmakers, particularly women lawmakers in the House that are pushing for reforms, that are pushing for it to make it easier for women and staffers to report sexual misconduct and sexual harassment from members of Congress.

I mean, one of the big issues right now, the House Ethics Committee, the body that investigates these types of claims, one, they're a notoriously slow committee. It takes years, if not months or years to finish out an investigation. And then also you're reporting one of your -- a member to a panel of their colleagues. And a lot of survivors have some concerns about that and are afraid of being blackballed.

So there are conversations on the Hill right now about making some changes to how this system works and how there could be better accountability for members of Congress. TAPPER: Kate Santaliz from Axios, Pamela Brown from CNN, great to have you both. Thank you so much. Keep up the great reporting.

Ahead. A mother's compelling words. That Greek after her son was killed by Hamas in a tunnel in Gaza. What can we learn from her tragic loss? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:43:49]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, Israeli American Hersh Goldberg-Polin was taken captive by Hamas on October 7, 2023. He was kidnapped from the Nova Music Festival and held in Gaza for 328 days. And for 328 days, his loving parents Rachel and John were working tirelessly to bring him home. Among the efforts, they came on our show. They came on Anderson's show. They came on lots of shows. They delivered a moving speech pleading for his return at the Democratic National Convention in 2024.

Just eight days after that moment, Hersh and five other innocent hostages were killed in a tunnel in Gaza. Today, Hersh lives on in a very moving new memoir from his mother, Rachel Goldberg-Polin called "When We See You Again." It tells the story of her continuing grief and her love for her son and who he was.

And Rachel joins me now. Rachel, I'm so sorry you and I have not spoken since the horrible, horrible news came. The book is remarkable.

[17:45:00]

It's compelling, it's beautifully written. It's very, very moving, obviously. The way you process your grief from losing your son in this horrific way, it's so gut wrenching, it's so visceral, but it's also so tangible at the same time. For anyone who has lost a loved one in any circumstance. You write, quote, grief can change shape over time for people, but it will be ever present. It nestles and entangles itself in for the long haul.

How are you doing now after writing this book and putting it all out there?

RACHEL GOLDBERG-POLIN, MOTHER OF ISRAELI HOSTAGE HERSH GOLDBERG-POLIN: It's a really reasonable, innocuous question to ask how anyone's doing or how I'm doing. I always have this very unfortunate sort of reflex of, I don't know how to answer this very simple, kind, normal, civilized question. I think I'm not unique.

There are millions of people all over the world who have buried their children. But there is something that, when you put part of your DNA into the ground, I think it actually changes who you are in this world. And I actually don't think that you truly recover from that. I think people desperately want us to get better, to be resilient, to heal, to make progress.

But I think that that's really a form of the newest. Great term I've just heard, which is toxic positivity, which I think of as, like being emotionally barbaric, almost not allowing people to go through this tragedy and to wear it and to carry this grief.

It's OK to carry grief. It's OK to be broken. It doesn't mean you're not going to experience joy and recognize the blessings in your life. But we are broken in a way that we will always carry. So that's the long answer to how are we doing? Actually think the longer answer is the book.

TAPPER: Yes. I should just note, I wear this every day. This is a band, a rubber band for my friend Darrell, my best friend for 40 years. His son Milo died of cancer when he was 18. And so I'm familiar with some of the things you talk about in terms of, just through Darrell, about toxic positivity and people who want you to recover and want you to be better and want. They want to not have to worry about you, and they want everything to. There's no closure. You know, there's no end of it.

And so I've. I've learned that from Darrell.

GOLDBERG-POLIN: No.

TAPPER: You, of course, lost Hirsch in a certain circumstance, though, in something that was geopolitical. And when I read your book, it reminded me a lot of when I was, I guess in eighth grade or ninth grade, and I read Elie Wiesel's book "Night," which is his story about surviving the Holocaust with his father.

And when I read that book, I wept, identified with Elie Wiesel, and pictured my father as Elie Wiesel's father. This time I read this book, and I'm picturing myself as you or John.

But it was a very similar experience.

GOLDBERG-POLIN: Right. That was something that I was concerned about because recently a few different schools reached out, high schools reached out to say that they were going to incorporate this book into their curriculum for high school students. And I had that fear of, my gosh, this is a horrible. You know, for me, I'm too close to it.

I'm not objective at all. I've only read the book once to myself, and then I had to read it for the audio version out loud, and it was like tearing my skin off. So the thought that children might be -- even if they're older children, teenagers might be reading the book, I thought, that must be insane.

And then I started to talk to some of these students, and I find it really interesting that the same text can be read in such different ways by depending on who the reader is.

TAPPER: One of the additionally awful things about the experience that you and your husband went through and your two daughters and everybody who knew and loved Hersh, is that even though you've very clear in your book and in all your public statements to acknowledge the pain in Gaza, the pain of Palestinians suffering, there is this world of people who deny the atrocities committed by Hamas against Hersh and others. A world of people.

[17:50:00]

I mean, we've just seen this renewal, this explosion of antisemitism, and people on the left and the right in the United States willing to tolerate antisemitism. Has that made this worse? Or is it just so bad it doesn't even matter?

GOLDBERG-POLIN: Well, I'm really living in a different place than hearing that kind of vitriol. I do think that beneath us as human beings who are endowed with such wisdom and insight and intellect, that we actually believe that there is an adversarial paradigm. You have to bifurcate and be on Team A or Team B, which is absolutely not true. We know we can hold multiple truths.

We were saying that obviously, since October 7th. I remember, actually, I think, discussing with you that I am extremely worried and concerned about the innocent civilians in Gaza and not but.

TAPPER: Yes.

GOLDBERG-POLIN: And I am worried about the innocent civilians in Gaza who were dragged there on October 7th. I can hold both of those truths and even more truths. And so I think when we create this construct of you have to be all in on side A or all in on side B, it is so hollowing out who we intellectually have the possibility to be.

TAPPER: You fill this book, which is very heavy, obviously, with lots of light, humorous, even at moments, Hersh stories, tidbits. I felt like I got to know him. What's something about Hersh that still brings a smile to your face, even amidst your grief?

GOLDBERG-POLIN: Well, all the time, all day long, he's bringing a smile to my face. I'm in a constant conversation with him, which I'm sure sounds very strange to people who are looking at me from the outside, but I feel very much that I have to teach myself how to experience him in his absence. You know, what I've learned from all of this is that -- and I never knew this.

Maybe people do know this. I was not aware. Love is stronger than death. Love is stronger than time. So the love for him keeps growing. It's this unwieldy, amazing, frenetic experience of this love is continuing. It's not going anywhere. It's getting bigger and continuing to be ever present.

And so when you ask, you know, what's something that brings a smile to my face? I mean, I was just thinking about how Hersh always carried my handbag, whatever bag I had with me, if it was groceries, you know, anything heavy, obviously. But even the tiniest little thing that I was carrying, he would always do this. I think I actually mentioned in the book that he would have this sort of look, and he would do this thing with his hand.

And it reminded me of Fred Astaire when he would put out his hand to Ginger Rogers and he would say, mama, the bag. And he would take my bag. TAPPER: Well, I have to say there is a saying amongst our people that I say all the time, and I think it's just kind of become an American thing now, which is may his memory be a blessing about somebody that you've lost. Lost. But I think Hersh's memory, it's not may it be a blessing. I think it is a blessing because of what you and John have done and your book.

And it made me think of -- you talk about in your book. I think it's John's father was a doctor, and there was an incident at the hospital and somebody needed an EpiPen and they came and they got it and saved the person's life. And then like a day or two later, was it a birthday party, and somebody had peanuts with a peanut allergy, I guess peanut butter with a peanut allergy.

And there just happened to be a second EpiPen there because of what had happened at the hospital. And from that near tragedy, there was now somebody else's life. It's not a direct metaphor, but I can't even think of the thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not more people that you're going to help with your book. And that is a blessing. That is Hersh's blessing.

So I hope you know that. I'm not saying it's consolation, but I hope you know that.

GOLDBERG-POLIN: I haven't heard that. And it really means a lot to me. And I know that you don't pull punches, Jake, so I really appreciate it.

TAPPER: "When We See You Again" is available now. It's a remarkable book, and the author is a remarkable woman. Rachel Goldberg-Polin. Thank you for joining us.

[17:25:09]

GOLDBERG-POLIN: Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: We do have some breaking news for you in our Politics Lead. We're just minutes away from the first polls closing in the state of Indiana. The primary there will show whether President Trump's quest for revenge against sitting Republican lawmakers who bucked him on his desire to redistrict Democrats out of existence. Whether or not that worked, that story's next.

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TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the final moments of voting in two key primaries testing the influence of President Trump. Will he exact revenge in Indiana? And is his coalition cracking at all in Ohio? We're standing by for the first polls to close.

Plus, Pennsylvania's Democratic governor Josh Shapiro is going to be here. He's leading a lawsuit on artificial intelligence, accusing --