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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump: Netanyahu "Wants Me To Stay Involved" In Iran; Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA) Is Interviewed About Bipartisan Bill Targets Sexual Misconduct On Capitol Hill; Diarrhea-Causing Parasite Sends Bride To ER On Honeymoon; Nun Detained & Released By ICE Told To Check In Next January; Stevens, El-Sayed Clash In Heated Final Dem Primary Debate; Data: Some Veterans Wait Months For First Therapist Visit. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired July 28, 2026 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: You can also catch up by listening to our podcast. That's that QR code right there. You can follow the show on X and Instagram. We're at thearenacnn.
But don't go anywhere because Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead." Not yet had a chance to talk about the fact that in Philadelphia.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So exciting. I'm now a LeBron James fan. Very exciting. And all the Knicks fans on my crew here are terrified. They don't want to admit it, they don't want to admit it, but they're very scared.
But anyway, are you joining me in Sixers fandom now?
HUNT: Yes, I'm a Sixers fan.
TAPPER: OK.
HUNT: Absolutely.
TAPPER: Well, it's tough to tell because you got that --
HUNT: I know.
TAPPER: -- Auriol's (ph) thing. But anyway. All right, Kasie, we'll look for more tomorrow on "The Arena."
HUNT: See you soon. Have a great show.
[17:00:37]
TAPPER: Today marks five months since the start of Trump's war with Iran, today. The Lead starts right now.
And remember, it was supposed to be a four to six week conflict and it is still not settled five months later. So how will this end? A key player in Trump's year was at the White House today, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as Trump's public comments directly contradict what we are hearing from the Iranian regime. And the race to find victims and survivor magnitude earthquake in Japan, people unaccounted for at a paper factory. And what we know about those trapped inside a shopping mall.
Plus a cyclosporine honeymoon disaster. Hear from a woman who somehow got that nasty stomach bug on the greatest holiday of her life. Talk about for better or for worse.
Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. Five months into this war with Iran and what does President Trump have to show for it? Well, 61 percent of the American people disapprove for one. Eighteen U.S. service members have been killed. More than 600 have been wounded.
The Strait of Hormuz is largely closed. A toll on the U.S. munitions stockpile has taken place, and of course, high gas prices at the pump. And while President Trump paused strikes this weekend after hitting Iran for 13 straight days, there is still no clear strategic advantage or plan to get out. Now, five months might be way too soon to declare this a quagmire, but it does not seem as though President Trump knows a clear way out of this.
Oh, and that nuclear sites, those nuclear sites that Trump claimed that the U.S. obliterated last year, there are now satellite images showing Iran might be rebuilding them, including one called Pickaxe Mountain. All this culminating on the day that Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu met with President Trump at the White House for about an hour and a half.
Hours before their meeting, Trump downplayed pressure to escalate the war with Iran, underscoring a strain in the U.S.-Israeli relationship. This is what Trump said when asked on Fox before the Oval Office meeting about reports of Netanyahu's plan to share intelligence about Iran rebuilding its nuclear program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't need Bibi to tell me that. Bibi's telling me that because he wants me to stay involved. We know exactly what's going on. But no, I heard Bibi announce that. I said, why don't you just tell it to me?
Why do you have to announce it to the world? I know exactly what's going on at Pickaxe. It's not a big problem. We took out their nuclear sites and we'll have to take out Pickaxe if we don't make a deal. If we don't make a deal, we'll take it out very easily.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Trump also threatened again to destroy Iranian bridges and power plants if no deal is made.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They know I'm going to do that. If they don't make a deal, the bridges are going to be gone. Literally in less than I would say in two hours, most of the bridges, the major bridges will all be gone and the power plants in one day. And, you know, if I can avoid doing that, I'd like to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Iran and the U.S. may have stopped shooting at each other for now. As for any peace talks, however, those do not appear to be going anywhere.
Joining us now is former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides, who served under President Biden. We should note he is also the spouse of a CNN executive's -- executive.
Ambassador Nides, hours before meeting with Netanyahu, President Trump put down the Israeli Prime Minister's intelligence about Iran rebuilding its nuclear sites. He said Netanyahu wants him to stay involved with the Iran war. Do you see this as a sign that Trump is trying to find a political off ramp, perhaps even blaming Netanyahu for pushing him into this war?
TOM NIDES, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Well, first of all, Jake, thanks for having me. But I think, you know the sad part about this for the prime minister, he's in a cul-de-sac. He can't get out, right? He's got, on one hand, he's got the Israeli people who are disappointed. They're still under an enormous amount of threat.
They believe that the actions that have been taken over the last five months was going to lead to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, including, as he pointed out, potentially a regime change. On the other hand, he knows that President Trump wants the war to end. President Trump has been a great friend of the state of Israel, and he understands that President Trump wants this over. So does the Iranians. So we're in a very complicated place.
[17:05:13]
And I just -- it's hard to imagine that five months ago the Straits of Hormuz was actually open and now we're fighting to reopen it. So again, I -- you know, the prime minister got -- and oh, by the way, the president -- prime minister has an election coming up in October. The complications here are immense. At the end of the day, you know, I think all of us would like to have a peaceful revolution -- the resolution of this as quickly as possible.
TAPPER: Netanyahu described the meeting he had with Trump as one of the best conversations they've had. How much does Netanyahu need the U.S. to help fight Israel's battles?
NIDES: Hundred percent. I mean, we are the most important ally to the state of Israel. Obviously the State of Israel has their own ability to defend themselves and it's proven over and over again, but we are the most important ally to the State of Israel, which I am proud to be part of. But that said, at the end of the day, that comes with a price. And the price is obviously you're working with President Trump.
And when President Trump is making decisions for good or for bad or for right or for wrong, the Prime Minister is going to have to listen to those decisions. TAPPER: The war with Iran recently renewed fighting between Yemen's Tehran backed Houthi rebels and Saudi Arabia. Shipping through the Bab al-Mandab Strait is now threatened, putting even more stress on the global economy. What are the risks if this truly becomes a whole new full bore front to this U.S. war with Iran, except through proxies?
NIDES: Well, you know, listen, Jake, at the end of the day, you know, it reminds me, as I hearkened back, you know, if, you know, a lot of people didn't like the JCPOA, the agreement that we and the Biden administration or the Obama administration were negotiating early on. But I bet you right now, today, if the JCPOA was presented to Donald Trump as was written back then, I think everyone would be very pleased to sign it.
And, you know, on the day of, you know, Lindsey Graham's, you know, funeral, listen, I had enormous respect for Senator Graham. I didn't agree with him on all things, but I have enormous respect. He was pushing -- we were close to getting normalization with the Saudis and really creating a new paradigm in the region. Obviously, October 7th happened and now we are where we are today. So a lot of decisions were made.
And my hope is that this will at some point, I think President Trump wants to find an exit ramp here, that we get the Straits of Hormuz done. We can go after the nuclear, you know, the systems and get a diplomatic answer to what needs --
TAPPER: I have to ask you about a crisis in Israel or in the West Bank -- just awful. Israel is now preparing a major military operation in the West Bank following a surge in violence. Two Israeli soldiers, four Palestinians were recently killed. There's settler violence against Palestinians. Yair Lapid, the Israeli opposition leader, former prime minister, he referred to it as Jewish terrorists.
I asked him how he would handle it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YAIR LAPID, ISRAELI OPPOSITION LEADER: I would send 300 police officers and two battalions of borders patrol and deal with it. That first of all --
TAPPER: With the settlers.
LAPID: With the settlers violence. First of all, this is Jewish terror. This is a disgrace for Israel. And nobody understands we are not -- the government is not taking stronger measures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Nobody understands why the government is not taking stronger measures. It seems to me that it's because Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, part of the Netanyahu cabinet, they are zealots, they are extremists. And Netanyahu wants to stay in power. Am I wrong?
NIDES: It makes me ill that this is happening. When I was ambassador, I was the person who basically sanctioned the settlers and made sure that they would never get a visa to come to the United States. It is a sickening thing. We -- those of us who support Israel, which I do, those of us who consider themselves a Zionist, which I do, it makes me sick to watch that happen.
We need to stop it. The prime minister needs to stop it. Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, hopefully that they won't be around post October because this kind of behavior, we don't have a point for this. You know, you can love Israel or disagree with Israel.
This kind of behavior needs to stop. And we need to understand it does not make Israel safer. That's what I argue all the time. It does not make Israel safer.
And it's not just the cellular violence. It's many of the things that we're doing with the Palestinian people, including the economic issues that have been written extensively about. So listen, this is a very complicated situation in the Middle East, but certainly no one should stand around and think what's going on with cellular violence is anyway, you know, the appropriate action being taken.
TAPPER: Former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides, thank you so much for being here.
Later on The Lead, was it intense talks, the side conversation spotted at Lindsey Graham's funeral today between Ukraine -- Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu just hours after their separate meetings with President Trump?
[17:10:04]
But first, money, power and scandal on Capitol Hill, the new effort to expose sexual misconduct allegations against lawmakers and to raise the price that they'll have to pay for their dirty deeds. We're getting the details first here on The Lead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, a push to crack down on sexual misconduct on Capitol Hill. Calls for reform have intensified after a series of sex scandals rocked the halls of Congress this year. Two lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle are teaming up. California Democrat Ro Khanna and Florida Republican Anna Paulina Luna have introduced legislation that would bar lawmakers and federal candidates from using campaign funds to fight or to settle sexual misconduct allegations.
The bill follows reporting from Notice, the website Notice, that former Congressman Eric Swalwell, a Democrat from California, tried to use campaign accounts when he faced sexual misconduct allegations.
[17:15:04]
We should note Swalwell denies all wrongdoing. Former Congressman Swalwell denies all wrongdoing. Let's get to the specifics of this new bill first here on The Lead. Congressman Ro Khanna is with me right now, along with activist Cheyenne Hunt, who played a central role in exposing the sexual misconduct allegations against Swalwell.
Congressman, walk us through the legislation, what specifically it would prevent.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): It's pretty simple. Right now, members of Congress, Senators, federal candidates raise money from donors to pay for T.V. advertisements, to pay to get their name out or their platform out. But some people have been abusing this, using this money to actually hire investigators to go after people who have accused them of sexual assault or sexual abuse or to pay for a legal defense to discourage people from coming and filing legitimate complaints against them.
Now, every person is entitled to their defense, but they're not entitled to use donor money to do that or to intimidate survivors. And that's why this bill with Representative Luna would ban congressional funding or campaign funding to be used for that purpose.
TAPPER: And, Cheyenne, this push comes after the website Notice reported that Swalwell used to thousands of dollars from an old congressional campaign account, so donations, to pay legal bills and to hire a private investigator, a PI to look into allegations and to, I guess, presumably follow some of the women who made allegations. And you say a lot of the women were forced back into hiding?
CHEYENNE HUNT, FOUNDER, RECKONING ACTION: Yes, Jake. So it's really horrific. We worked with these incredibly courageous women to bring these allegations forward. But the battle doesn't stop there. The truth was out.
Eric Swalwell was forced to resign. But as subsequent filings showed, he was using that money to pay not only for his criminal defense, but through that criminal defense lawyer, paying personal investigators to intimidate these women who bravely came forward to expose him. And that's exactly why we pushed to get this legislation introduced. And we're incredibly grateful to Congressman Khanna and Congresswoman Luna for doing this work.
TAPPER: And Congressman, your partner in this bill, Congresswoman Luna, called it a massive deterrent. Some might say that members of Congress generally do very well financially compared to the general public. Do you think forcing them to pay legal fees out of pocket or private investigator fees out of pocket will really deter the behavior, given the fact that there are a lot of millionaires on Capitol Hill?
KHANNA: I do. I mean, look, the reality is right now, there's -- they're using this funding in total asymmetrical warfare. I mean, they -- a survivor doesn't have funding, and they're just using campaign funds to go after them. At least now they'll be like anyone else in America. If you get accused then -- of a serious sexual abuse, then you're entitled to a defense. You can pay for it with your own money, but you can't be using campaign funds. So it's not going to be a solve all, but it's going to not to end this impunity that members of Congress enjoy.
TAPPER: Right. Or they could set up a legal campaign -- legal defense fund if they want, and have donations specifically designated for that.
Cheyenne, other ideas to combat sexual misconduct on Capitol Hill are also circulating. House Speaker Johnson recently said he would support banning lawmakers on Capitol Hill from having any sexual relationships with any congressional staffers, not just their own staffers. You work closely with former staffers who say they have experienced misconduct on Capitol Hill. They've experienced, I guess, harassment or worse. What policies do they want to see put in place?
HUNT: I mean, Congress is so far behind even the corporate world, right? Where obviously they still have progress to make there. But there is no independent HR. There is no way to report that is not asking a body to police itself and for these members to police their friends or their staff to police their bosses, and none of that makes sense. So we're proud to also be working with the Democratic Women's Caucus that is now in partnership with the Republican Women's Caucus to bring forward a whole comprehensive package of reforms.
And I think these have all been deeply influenced by many of the staffers that we've had the opportunity to interview and work with. And we're really proud to see that that legislation is going to be moving forward and that Speaker Johnson seems to be on board.
TAPPER: Congressman Khanna, no offense, but Congress doesn't seem particularly inclined as a body, and I've been covering it for decades, to ever want to police itself, to ever want to have accountability built into the system. Often Congress has a history of passing laws that apply to every single working situation in the country except for them. What makes you think you can get this passed into law?
KHANNA: A new generation on the Hill who are unafraid, who frankly, will refuse to start working for members who have patterns or reputations of abuse and who are willing to go public. And what Cheyenne did was incredible. It took a lot of coverage for those survivors to come forward. And now you have empowered a lot of people on the Hill who were silenced before and this new generation isn't going to put up with it.
[17:20:22]
So I do believe that reform is finally coming, not because of members of Congress like me who've been there 10 years. I mean, I care about the issue it's because it's being pushed by these young staffers and the activists. And they deserve the credit.
TAPPER: All right, Congressman Ro Khanna, Cheyenne Hunt, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Next, when cyclospora destroys a honeymoon. One new bride's horror story coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:25:14]
TAPPER: In our Health Lead, in sickness and in health, Michigan bride says she ended up in the hospital during her honeymoon after contracting cyclosporiasis. Cyclosporiasis is of course a parasitic illness which is at the center of this multistate outbreak linked to iceberg lettuce according to the CDC. The illness can cause weeks of strong horrific intestinal pain and yes, explosive diarrhea.
Newlywed Gretchen Pleuss joins us now.
Gretchen, first of all, how are you doing?
GRETCHEN PLEUSS, CONTRACTED CYCLOSPORA ON HONEYMOON: I'm doing much better. Thanks, Jake.
TAPPER: Do you have any idea what you ate that made you sick? And how soon afterward did you begin to feel ill?
PLEUSS: It's been challenging to figure out exactly where I got it. I think that's sort of the problem for most people is that it can take, you know, up to two weeks for symptoms to arise. I have a hunch it was a either a bagged salad kit or lettuce on a sub sandwich because it's shredded. It was pre washed so I didn't actually wash it myself. So that's where I'm assuming I got it.
TAPPER: You told People magazine that it felt like your intestines were really, really tight, like somebody was seizing them. We've covered this so much, we wanted to talk to you because we haven't talked to anybody that actually experienced it. Tell us more about what you experienced and whatever you're comfortable with.
PLEUSS: Yes, absolutely. The first couple days when I -- the first onset was, you know, what everybody talks about, which is the explosive watery diarrhea, which is no fun. But it's really the symptoms that arise from that that cause all the stomach pain. So for instance, I was just becoming severely dehydrated. I had to drink a lot of electrolytes to just try to keep some hydration in my body.
I was unable to eat anything for about, I would say about 36 hours. Even small bites, I couldn't -- I couldn't do it. So I didn't have an appetite. I was just constantly using the restroom. Once that diarrhea subsided is when the stomach pain really started.
And it just felt like, you know, like I said, seizing almost just like tightness, like contractions in your stomach. And a lot of that I think, you know, might have been also from hunger, although I had no appetite. And that's about the time that I decided, you know, I should probably go to the hospital and see if I can get some sort of antibiotics or medication for this and get an IV so I can get hydrated and back on track.
TAPPER: Where were you during all this? PLEUSS: So the first symptoms I had were in the Badlands of South Dakota. We were actually camping and visiting some friends there. So it was pretty remote and we had to drive a little over an hour to Rapid City.
TAPPER: And your husband didn't contract cyclosporiasis? Did you guys have different meals?
PLEUSS: You know, I -- we eat a lot of the same things, so I don't know if I just got the bad batch or if, you know, maybe it was a -- you know, the lunch sandwich that I had one day that he didn't have when we were at work. I know, you know, when I first started having the symptoms, he was obviously afraid that he was going to be next, but fortunately, so far he's been fine.
TAPPER: Any plans for a honeymoon do over? You know, maybe this time hold the lettuce?
PLEUSS: I mean, we'd love to. We missed -- we definitely missed out on a few days of activities. We kind of had to stay put in hotels just instead of moving on to camping because we wanted to get up to Yellowstone and glacier sooner to be able to camp and hike, which is what we really like to do. So we're open to redoing a honeymoon, you know, if anybody has some ideas for us.
TAPPER: Maybe somebody at Yellowstone wants to extend an invitation for a special deluxe honeymoon cabin.
Gretchen, thanks so much for --
PLEUSS: Yes, we'll take a suit, for sure.
TAPPER: Thanks so much for telling your story and putting a human face on this horrific epidemic that we've been covering for weeks and weeks. And congratulations. By the way --
PLEUSS: Absolutely.
TAPPER: -- you were a beautiful bride.
PLEUSS: Thank you very much.
TAPPER: Yes. All right. Congratulations again.
[17:29:40]
Coming up, a Catholic nun, once detained may be out of ICE custody, but that is not stopping the Trump administration from trying to kick her out of the country. What happened when Sister Letty checked in with ICE today? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our National Lead, an update on a story we've been following, the Trump administration's efforts to deport a nun. A nun who is working with the sick in Texas. ICE detained Sister Leticia Ugboaja, or Sister Letty, who was wearing the blue habit there in McAllen, Texas on June 28th a month ago while she was on her way to mass. She was released the next day and told to come back for a hearing. That hearing happened today.
Joining us now is Sister Letty's attorney, Carlos Garcia. So Carlos, what happened today? Is ICE still trying to deport Sister Letty? How is she doing?
CARLOS GARCIA, SISTER LETTY'S ATTORNEY: Today we went to a check-in at the ICE office and a couple of supervisors reviewed her case. She was not detained, which is great news. An ankle monitor was not placed on her. But we were notified that ICE continues to look into a third country for deportation, which obviously concerns all of us, including Sister Letty.
[17:35:14]
TAPPER: If ICE finds a third country to deport Sister Letty before next January, how's it going to work? Are agents just going to swoop in and send her away, whether she's at mass or tending to the sick? Or is she safe until January?
GARCIA: Well, that's always the concern. And our hope is that we get notice and an opportunity to respond. But in the meantime, we're not just sitting still. We're actively looking for legal options for her. We're trying to reach out to the government as well, but definitely legally analyzing how we can move forward so that we can give her a stable place to live here in the United States.
TAPPER: Step back for a moment and give us some more background. The Trump administration keeps touting ICE as rounding up the worst of the worst. That's what they're trying to do. Just go after the gangbangers, the drug traffickers, the pedophiles. How did a Catholic nun in Texas who serves the sick become a target for deportation?
GARCIA: Right. This is the opposite of that. She is a person who's devoted her life to her work and also to her religious ministry. She did fight a case in immigration court where she was able to present her case. In the end, an immigration judge ended up granting her withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture, which prevents the United States government from deporting her to her home country.
But during this administration, the government has indicated that although they may not be able to deport her to her home country, they will try to deport her and others, many other people in the United States, to a different third country, which is what we're saying is not OK.
TAPPER: Was somebody in the community complaining about her? It sounds to me like she just prayed and helped the sick. And that pretty much was her life as tends to be the case with nuns.
GARCIA: Right. You're absolutely right. That is actually what she does. She goes to work at a hospital and then she goes to church. But no, nobody's complaining about her. I think this is something that we're seeing across the country where perhaps ICE is going through orders that have happened in immigration court, orders of withholding, where people have been here, they've been living in the country, they were granted this relief and told, hey, follow these steps and make sure you comply with the government rules.
And that's what she was doing. But now during this administration, all that has changed. So people who are peacefully living here and complying with everything, perhaps a year and a half ago, are now living in fear that this may happen to them.
TAPPER: Carlos Garcia, thanks for the update on Sister Letty. We're going to stay on the case.
Coming up, the sharp response from a Republican --
GARCIA: Thank you.
[17:40:15]
TAPPER: -- after Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear called for an investigation into Senator Mitch McConnell's ongoing absence from the Senate and the pictures that keep popping up of his hospital stay. No videos popping up, just photos. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're going to cue the music for the Politics Lead. One week from today, voters, there it is, the election jam, nice. Voters in Michigan are going to head to the polls for a very closely watched Democratic Senate primary.
The race has served as something of a bellwether, pitting the party's more establishment side against its progressive, DSA-ish flank. This is a pivotal battleground state. Congresswoman Haley Stevens is going up against Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, and they made their case and took some swings at each other at last night's debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDUL EL-SAYED (D), SENATE PRIMARY CANDIDATE: When you ask $60 million to come into a race for you and then say that somehow you're electable, I think you don't quite understand what electability means. If you need a $60 million crutch, you probably can't be elected on your own terms.
REP. HALEY STEVENS (D-MI): I know it's great to host rallies and have these fun events, but everywhere I have gone in Michigan, I have taken the time to visit a minority-owned business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: A panel joins me now. Xochitl, did you watch the debate? What do you think?
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Some of it. I saw some of it, and I thought Haley Stevens did very well. Listen, I think they both are trying to make the case about who is more electable. He's trying to make the case that she needs all of this money in order to come to the top. She was trying to make the case about him, that he is someone who just wants the fame.
He is looking for his next thing. He's going to use this to potentially run for president. He doesn't care about the people of Michigan. So I found that very interesting. At the end of the day, Democrats are going to have to make the decision about who is most electable in the state. It is key in order to winning the Senate that we hold onto the seat, and I think Democrats are very nervous about those prospects.
Haley Stevens has been touting all day today that she is ahead against Rogers, that she is the person who could actually win in this race, especially as people are voting. And so I think that that dynamic is going to be one that is going to appeal to Democrats, because ultimately they want to win.
TAPPER: Do you think Mike Rogers would prefer to run against El-Sayed? I mean, that's the Haley Stevens spin, and I think Rogers was caught saying that somewhere, but.
[17:44:56]
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, given that he lost to a more establishment woman two years ago, yeah. I would say, yes, he does. I also think it would be an easier race for Republicans to run, and it will be a continuation of what, you know, this Democrat Civil War that's going on between Democrat Socialists and more establishment players. So, yeah, I think Mike Rogers would much rather run against El-Sayed.
TAPPER: This really is a bellwether in terms of, like, if Abdul El- Sayed, Dr. El-Sayed, wins, this is really going to embolden the DSA side of the party, although if he wins but then loses in November, it could have an opposite effect.
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, in some ways this is a proxy for these splits all over the country. I mean, he's technically not a DSA guy.
TAPPER: No, no, no, of course.
GOLDBERG: His agenda-wise is very simpatico with it.
TAPPER: He has a lot of DSA people campaigning for him, but he is not DSA.
GOLDBERG: Right, but at the same time, like, one of the things I find fascinating about this race is sort of the dog-whistly kind of subtext to everything. Stevens, she's really leaning into her Michigan accent, right, which is a subtle way of saying, I'm like you, I'm like the rural voters, I'm a Michigander through and through.
Sayed, I understand his sort of quasi-Marxist stuff about special interests controlling America and that if we didn't -- if we weren't funding Israel, we'd be able to pay for good schools, which is just a demagogic lie, but one of the brilliant things about it is he's basically using this left-wing populist thing to also signal how anti- Israel he is, and I think it's an effective thing for the constituencies he needs to turn out, particularly college-town white kids, sort of left-wing activists in Ann Arbor and Lansing and that kind of stuff, but also the sort of uncommitted Arab American, Muslim Americans who are one of the reasons why Kamala Harris lost Michigan in 2024 because they said they weren't going to vote for Biden because of what was going on in Gaza, and so it's a subtext where the main, the forthright way of talking about the issue isn't being said, but I think it's being picked up in a lot of ways.
TAPPER: The issue of ICE and whether or not federal immigration agents should be reined in was also part of the debate last night. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVENS: This isn't working for us. This is abuse of power, and I am standing up to Trump right now on these abuses of power, not shouting into a bullhorn, not getting in front of the first camera I see, but doing the hard work.
EL-SAYED: Yes, that somehow we can't say abolish ICE because we're so afraid of what they're going to say when we've seen ICE terrorize people in our streets. To me, it is exactly the kind of cowardice that we don't need from Democrats. So, yes, I'm going to take the bullhorn, and I'm going to say that I think we need to abolish ICE because I am not afraid of what they're going to say about me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you think?
HINOJOSA: That is what we're going to see in 2028. That is just a little bit a preview of what I think the primary will be like on the Democratic side as we head into potential debates into 2028. There are some in the Democratic Party that have taken abolish ICE stances. There are others that said, wait a minute, we need enforcement of some kind, we need to reform ICE, and it's not realistic to abolish ICE.
I think that Haley Stevens made a very good point. She's trying to do stuff there, but actually abolishing ICE is just not going to happen. And I do think at the end of the day, if you look at all of the polling, people would like border security, they would like to make sure that there are leaders who will pay attention to that, and then keep people in this country who have played by the rules.
They don't want to just completely wash their hands of any enforcement whatsoever and go back to what people call the Biden days, which were the worst days when it came to immigration.
TAPPER: Although, Jonah, I mean, immigration enforcement used to be a place where President Trump polled really strongly, but post- Minnesota, six months ago, he's underwater.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
TAPPER: So there is room there. I don't know if abolish ICE, I mean, I could be proven wrong, but I don't know that abolish ICE offends people the way it might have, like, two or three years ago. Like, even normies, I mean.
GOLDBERG: Yes, so part of the problem is, it's a Michigan primary, Independents can vote in it, and I think Stevens needs to get those people in. And I think the message on this is to make abolish ICE seem radical by basically taking a Clintonian approach. Affirmative action was generally unpopular in America when Clinton ran in 1992, but at the same time, people didn't like the idea of getting rid of it entirely.
TAPPER: Mend it, don't end it.
GOLDBERG: So his message was, mend it, don't end it. If you have a similar message to, mend it, don't end it on ICE, where we say we're going to fix it, the cruelty is outrageous, you get to say all the talking points while at the same time reassure people that you still believe in border enforcement and that kind of thing.
DUBKE: This was all a better answer to who Mike Rogers would like to run against. Both of these. I mean, I think it answers itself.
HINOJOSA: Someone who's for border enforcement?
DUBKE: Well, no, I think the men, you know, Mike Rogers wants to create a very stark difference between himself and whoever the Democratic nominee is, and I think there's one candidate on the Democratic side that provides that for him.
[17:49:58]
TAPPER: So let's just turn for one second to the fact that Republican Senator Rand Paul is slamming Kentucky Democratic Governor Andy Beshear. Beshear has called on the Senate Majority Leader John Thune to investigate the health condition of former Majority Leader, Senator from Kentucky, Mitch McConnell. He's calling it a campaign ploy. Rand Paul is calling it a campaign ploy because Beshear might be running for president.
But I do think that there are some serious questions about where Mitch McConnell is, and they've now posted the second photo, but I don't know if they know this, but the camera function on your phone actually also has a video function. So if Mitch McConnell wanted to say something instead of just smiling in a different shirt, he could.
HINOJOSA: And he could text it to you.
DUBKE: Right. I'm sure there's producers that can reach out to him and see if he can do a live interview.
TAPPER: We went through this in 2024, and not as bad as this.
HINOJOSA: I mean, Joe Biden was not in the hospital. TAPPER: No, I said not as bad as this.
HINOJOSA: No, I know. But it was bad, so.
TAPPER: I'm just saying this idea of like transparency and height.
DUBKE: Yes.
TAPPER: What would you tell the McConnell people?
DUBKE: Just keep doing what you're doing. That's what I would tell them. Look, he's going to miss Fancy Farm, which for him is a huge deal on Saturday. I mean, well --
TAPPER: That's a big Kentucky thing.
DUBKE: Oh, it's a huge Kentucky thing. It's actually where he got the start to his political career in 1984. Not that I'm going to go deep.
TAPPER: It's like Roger Goodell missing the NFL draft. It's like you don't do it.
DUBKE: It is. You don't do it. For him, this is a big thing. Yes, is Mitch McConnell under the weather? Yes, he is. But does that raise, which is really your question about Governor Beshear saying, demanding that he prove himself here.
GOLDBERG: So I assume if Mitch McConnell resigned from the Senate, Beshear would get to a point.
HINOJOSA: No, he doesn't.
GOLDBERG: OK. So that's good. The Kentucky rules are different.
DUBKE: I was wondering why it hadn't come up in --
TAPPER: I think they changed it.
DUBKE: They did.
GOLDBERG: That's right.
TAPPER: They changed it because of Beshear.
GOLDBERG: That's right. I forgot. I remember that now.
TAPPER: They didn't want Beshear to be --
GOLDBERG: They don't.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDBERG: The whole thing is so suffused with sort of partisan stuff. Mitch McConnell doesn't want to give his enemies the benefit of the doubt, the boon here. He's a stubborn guy. It's sort of the personal health version of the Merrick Garland strategy. And I think everyone's got a perfectly credible argument that Senators and disinformed maybe they shouldn't hold the seat.
TAPPER: Thanks, everyone.
Coming up, the long wait times to see a therapist at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Some veterans are waiting months. The new CNN analysis is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:56:42]
TAPPER: Breaking news in our Law and Justice Lead. Colt Gray, the Georgia teen who shot and killed two teachers and two students in Apalachee High School in 2024, was just sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The decision concludes a three-day sentencing hearing that featured Gray's guilty plea to 55 charges, emotional victim impact statements, his confessions to police, and insights into his motive and mental health, including chilling references to other school shootings. The 16-year-old did not audibly react to the sentencing, while families of the shooting victims gasped and cried as the announcement was read.
In our National Lead, the long wait, despite a Department of Veterans Affairs report showing the number of veterans who received mental health care from the V.A. jumped 78 percent between 2009 and 2024, and predictions that the number will keep going up through at least 2033. A CNN analysis of the department's own data shows significantly long wait times before some people are able to see a therapist for the first time.
Brian Todd is part of a CNN team that's been crunching the numbers. Brian, what can you tell us?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this is new reporting from myself and our colleagues Tami Luhby and Alex Leeds Matthews. We looked at what veterans go through when they try to get seen for mental health appointments, since dealing with mental health is so crucial for so many veterans. The issue here is it's confusing for veterans to figure out whether the V.A. is consistently providing timely appointments when a veteran wants to schedule a mental health appointment at the V.A. for the first time.
The V.A. and its secretary, Doug Collins, say it only takes 15 days on average for a veteran to see a provider for a first-time mental health appointment. That falls under the V.A.'s own target of 20 days to get an initial appointment. But when a veteran actually goes to look for an appointment by going to a V.A. website called Access to Care, they get a different picture. We crunched the numbers on the Access to Care website for most of the month of July.
We found that based on what Access to Care says, veterans across the country frequently have to wait weeks or even months for initial mental health appointments. Our analysis showed that wait times at 541 V.A. facilities exceeded the V.A.'s target of 20 days for first-time mental health appointments. Those 541 facilities make up two-thirds of those that reported numbers. At a handful of V.A. facilities, waits stretched nearly five or more months. Another 22 facilities reported wait times of at least three months, way more than the 15 days the V.A. is touting. The V.A.'s contention it says analyzing the numbers for wait times on its own Access to Care website is inaccurate for several reasons, including that a few patients with long wait times skew the numbers and that the Access to Care website does not reflect certain situations, like when mental health appointments are sometimes moved earlier, meaning they ultimately are not waiting as long as the website says.
The V.A. also stresses that new patients only make up roughly 10 percent of all mental health patients and that wait times for established patients are generally shorter. So the V.A. contends its own website listing wait times for veterans is not a good measure of reality.
We spoke to some veterans who were frustrated with the confusion over this one veteran who only wanted to give his first name, Dennis, says his anxiety grew when it took him a few months to schedule an appointment with a psychologist at his local V.A. facility.
[17:59:59]
Dennis said, "By the appointment being delayed, I couldn't be helped sooner. My mental state probably declined a little bit more." Now there is an important caveat to all this. Under the V.A.'s policy, a veteran having an emergency mental health crisis can be seen on the same day they reported at an agency facility, an emergency room or with a private provider. So any vet in real crisis should still seek help and not necessarily look at those wait times on the website.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
