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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Michael Cohen Interviews Trump Years After Dramatic Falling- out; Sources: Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO), Is Interviewed About Navy May Strip Black War Hero's Name From Ship, Potentially Renaming It For Trump; Melania Trump Announces Foster Care Scholarship Initiative; Women Rally In Support Of Lindsay Clancy At Her Trial. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired August 20, 2026 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you being here. Do -- thanks to you at home for joining as well. Don't go anywhere. Jake Tapper is here for "The Lead" with a big interview.
Hi, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hey, Kasie. We'll look for more tomorrow in "The Arena."
HUNT: See you soon.
[17:00:40]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So why did President Trump give an interview to his fixer turned enemy turned whatever they are now, Michael Cohen? The Lead starts right now.
Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, what the president told Cohen on his radio show today after their very public falling out with name calling and finger pointing and criminal charges. So was today a friendly conversation? Cohen is here exclusively in minutes.
And crowds at court, why so many women seem to be rallying around Lindsay Clancy, the Massachusetts mom on trial for killing her three young kids. Coming up, a closer look at postpartum psychosis, the condition Clancy is using in her defense, and a discussion about why this case seems to be touching a nerve.
Plus, first on The Lead, what sources tell CNN about the U.S. Navy apparently scrapping plans to rename an aircraft carrier after a Black World War II hero and possibly naming the ship after Donald J. Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. And we're going to start with breaking news in our politics lead. President Donald Trump wrapping up an unlikely interview with his former lawyer, former fixer and now apparently former foe, Michael Cohen. Yes, you heard that correctly.
The president, who once called Cohen a weak sleazebag rat, and the fixer who called Trump a racist predator con man, have now somehow supposedly buried the hatchet. Cohen previewed his WABC radio interview, which airs in full in just a few minutes, by writing on social media, quote, "After years of betrayal, heartbreak, fury and silence, two men who once stood together against the world faced the impossible question. Can forgiveness resurrect what hatred destroyed?"
Well, can it? Moment from now we're going to ask Cohen himself in an exclusive interview. A source says the two men already met in private over the past year at Trump's Bedminster golf course in New Jersey. But Trump's taped phone interview will be their very first public conversation since the very public collapse of their professional and personal relationship more than eight years ago.
As you might remember, August 21, 2018, Michael Cohen pleaded guilty in federal court to eight criminal counts implicating Donald Trump in a payment scheme designed to silence women who claimed that they had affairs with Trump, who was then a candidate in the 2016 presidential election. And it was for their relationship all downhill from there. Cohen felt Trump and his associates made him the fall guy, as he was the only person to serve any prison time for that hush money scheme. And then, after serving prison time, Cohen wrote two books about it, pointedly titled "Disloyal and Revenge." After that, Cohen became the star witness in Trump's 2024 criminal trial in New York.
Trump was, of course, convicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records related to the hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, an adult film star and director, to keep her quiet about an alleged past tryst with Donald Trump. President Trump denied the affair and appealed the conviction. Trump, of course, saw all of this as a betrayal. Here's just a sampling of some of the things they have said about each other.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's a weak person, and by being weak, unlike other people that you watch, he's a weak person.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I know what Mr. Trump, is. He is a racist, he is a con man, and he is a cheat.
Mr. Trump called me a rat for choosing to tell the truth, much like a mobster would do when one of his men decides to cooperate with the government.
TRUMP: But, you know, he's a sleazebag. Everybody knows that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Not to mention, of course, the time that Michael Cohen called Trump a, quote, "Cheeto-dusted cartoon villain," unquote. So how does a relationship come back from all that? Well, something changed in January when Michael Cohen claimed that New York prosecutors, including New York Attorney General Letitia James and Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, pressured and coerced him into testifying against Trump. A quiet reconciliation between the two began when Cohen got a text from someone he described as a White House friend, and an insider relayed a message from the president.
So let's talk about it now. Joining me now on the phone for an exclusive, Michael Cohen.
Michael, thanks so much for joining us. So, first you have a radio interview with the president. Did he make any news?
[17:05:02]
COHEN: The answer is he did. That goes live at 6:00, so approximately an hour from now on 77 WABC, you will hear a big part of the conversation. Not the full part. The full part will be aired on my Sunday 5:00 p.m. show called "When You Know, You Know."
TAPPER: Well, give us a little taste. Did he make news on Iran? Did he make news on something domestic?
COHEN: So he made news on multiple different fronts, but on Iran is one that you're definitely going to hear in approximately an hour. You know, one of the questions that I have continuously asked because I am in support of what the president is doing in Iran. I believe that Iran, as every other president all the way through Jimmy Carter, believed for almost 50 years now that Iran must never possess a nuclear weapon. And in the conversation that the president turns around and says that Iran was two weeks away from becoming nuclear. And that's not something that I think we've ever heard before.
But I do want to make one correction to what you said in your opening. The comment that I had written was in regard to Alvin Bragg and Tish James, is that I felt pressured and coerced. And I think the distinction is extremely important. But on equal import, you know, many people, of course, Jake, asked me that question. How is this possible?
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: How is it possible after all of what took place, all of the name calling, the years of the public war, the verbal missiles that we threw at one another, how is it possible that the two of us can ever sit down again? In fact, obviously, I knew I was going to do an interview with someone today, right? I didn't know it was going to be you, Jake. But when the, you know, the opportunity arose, I was extremely excited because I think you're fantastic.
I wrote in my Substack today and I asked people to read. It's called "The Impossible Reunion."
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: I turn around and I say emphatically, the answer is actually much simpler than people want it to be. The answer is that we forgave. And not because the past didn't happen, not because the scars disappeared, not because every disagreement suddenly becomes irrelevant, and certainly not because I have forgotten anything. TAPPER: Right.
COHEN: I have not. But remember this. Forgiveness does not require amnesia. It requires the courage to stop allowing yesterday to dictate tomorrow.
TAPPER: How would you describe your relationship with the president right now?
COHEN: It's being resuscitated.
TAPPER: Well, let me just ask you, because you say that you haven't forgotten the past. You testified under oath, obviously that President Trump directed you to commit crimes. Do you stand by that?
COHEN: So let me say this, I will not discuss what I had said in the past, what I had stated under oath. I will not go there. Simply because I want to live for the future. I refuse to be pulled back into yesterday's news and yesterday's headlines so that a slew of people can turn around and start to try to pull it apart. I truly believe that there is forgiveness between Donald Trump and myself, and that, to me, is what is important right now.
TAPPER: Have you in any way, in private or in any other facility, asked President Trump for a pardon?
COHEN: So I have not. Let me just say this. Prior to Trump taking office, I did have a pardon application in with President Biden. And that pardon application was supported by seven very well-known individuals to you and to your show. It started out with Congressman Jamie Raskin, Congressman Steve Cohen, John Dean, Nick Ackerman, Laurence Tribe, Asha Rangappa, and Norm Eisen, each one believing that I was more than deserving of that pardon.
Now, Joe Biden came and went 12:01, I receive an e-mail that says denied. OK. Certainly he took good care of his family, took care of his son, which is expected and understandable, but there are other people that deserved it as well.
TAPPER: But what about Donald Trump? Are you --
COHEN: So what did I do?
TAPPER: Are you asking for --
COHEN: Just the -- just the --
TAPPER: Go ahead.
COHEN: So what I did is I took that same application with the same documentation, and I just rewrote the cover letter removing the name of President Joe Biden and inserting the name President Donald Trump. Now, interesting, because you're not the first person to ask me this question. I have not received an acknowledgement that they have the application, which is on my to do list, which I intend to call tomorrow to find out what happened, because I did send it by FedEx, so I do have a receipt.
[17:10:15]
TAPPER: So I know you said you don't want to talk about things that you've said in the past, but I have to say, I mean, some of the -- some of the things you've said are rather unforgettable. Some of them are now memes. Some of them are going to be with us long after you and I have slipped this mortal coil of earth. I want to play, for example, an exchange between --
COHEN: Uncertain that you're -- uncertain that you're right about that --
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: -- very much like the meme with me with Brianna Keilar when I turned around and said, says who --
TAPPER: Yes, that was in --
COHEN: -- about the polls, the fake polls --
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: -- and it became -- it became a meme to basically denigrate me. Guess what? I was right. Donald Trump won the election.
TAPPER: He did win the election.
COHEN: It meant nothing.
TAPPER: Well, the polls were wrong, but --
COHEN: Of course they were.
TAPPER: But --
COHEN: And so is Brianna Keilar.
TAPPER: Well, Brianna is great. But I want to --
COHEN: I think she's great, too, but that doesn't mean she can't be wrong.
TAPPER: I want -- well, the polls were wrong, I think was the point. But I want to play this exchange between you and Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Speier of California from that 2019 congressional hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JACKIE SPEIER (D-CA): How many times did Mr. Trump asked you to threaten an individual or entity on his behalf?
COHEN: Quite a few times?
SPEIER: Fifty times? COHEN: More.
SPEIER: A hundred times?
COHEN: More.
SPEIER: Two hundred times?
COHEN: More.
SPEIER: Five hundred times.
COHEN: Probably over the -- over the 10 years.
SPEIER: Over the 10 years he asked you --
COHEN: And when you say threaten, I'm talking with litigation or an argument with --
SPEIER: Intimidation.
COHEN: Nasty reporter that has -- is writing an article.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So I know you want to -- I know you don't want to discuss this incident --
COHEN: Well, I'm certainly glad that you played the full context of it because --
TAPPER: Oh, yes.
COHEN: -- yes, it was in regard to litigation.
TAPPER: Right.
COHEN: And that's exactly what lawyers do.
TAPPER: No.
COHEN: We file lawsuits --
TAPPER: Sure.
COHEN: -- or we express the intent on behalf of our client.
TAPPER: Yes. This wasn't --
COHEN: The institute litigation.
TAPPER: This wasn't a horsehead in the bed. I get it. But you're standing by -- you're not going to discuss things you said in the past, but you're not retracting anything, right? I mean, you're not taking anything back.
COHEN: Like I said, I refuse to go back in time. What I said was said and that's where I stand with it.
TAPPER: Let me -- let me ask you about this notion of forgiveness that you're talking about because --
COHEN: Sure.
TAPPER: -- I mean, President Trump, he let you take the fall for a lot of things. And I'm sure I don't need to remind you that you went to prison while he was president during his first term. Now, you talked about how you two -- you two have reconciled. Did he actually apologize to you?
COHEN: You know, what he said to me is between President Trump and myself. And I feel very comfortable with the words that he said to me when I had -- when we were together during the three meetings.
TAPPER: But he could have theoretically said that you shouldn't go to prison for doing things that he told you to do. I don't want to get into the medallion cab stuff, but, like --
COHEN: There was nothing. By the way, I'm glad you brought that up, too. There was nothing with taxi cab or medallions.
TAPPER: OK.
COHEN: I never owed the banks any money. There was no --
TAPPER: OK.
COHEN: -- there was no charge.
TAPPER: But you take my point on like you went to --
COHEN: Yes, but I think facts matter, Jake.
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: Facts matter in this specific -- there was no allegation of anything that I did wrong with the medallions.
TAPPER: Right.
COHEN: I was a medallion owner --
TAPPER: Yes. Let's shift to --
COHEN: -- since 1995.
TAPPER: Let's shift it back to the president. Let's shift it back to the president. I'm saying I don't want to get into that. So -- but the President told you to do things, you did them and then you went to prison and he -- he's had no consequences.
COHEN: OK.
TAPPER: That doesn't bother you -- COHEN: At this point in time, I cannot go back and rewrite history.
For me, what I want is I want that chapter not to be the defining moment or the worst chapter of my life. And quite frankly, I feel very good right now. I believe that, you know, it is harder to forgive than it is to throw rocks.
TAPPER: It is tough to forgive people 100 percent, especially if they tell you to commit crimes, you commit them, you go to prison while they're in charge of the country. I mean, that would be really tough for me to forget.
COHEN: It is certainly unusual, isn't it, right?
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: It's one that's going to go down in history like Jackson and Burr. I mean, I can't really think of a modern day dispute that was more public and more destructive to both of us than the battles that took place between the president and myself.
[17:15:01]
TAPPER: So after following your testimony against Trump in the 2024 trial, just a couple years ago, we had former federal prosecutor Michael J. Moore on the show. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL J. MOORE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I mean, he basically is an opportunist and takes every chance to make money off his relationship with Trump. He won the promotion because of his relationship with Trump. He's now selling books and doing his podcasts, and apparently, you know, looking for his next gig.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So that was him talking to Wolf Blitzer on CNN. Now here we are two years later. You've reconciled with Trump. You've criticized the prosecutors you cooperated with for how you felt. You've landed a show on WABC, which I think is accurate to say that they're fairly Trump friendly.
You even said Trump gave you a glowing recommendation for the job. How do you answer the criticism that people see you as an opportunist?
COHEN: I don't. I don't care what he has to say. I speak and I continue to speak truth. I believe, as I have always believed, that I am more centrist than I am anything. There's nothing in my political positions, in my policies and my beliefs that have changed.
I still believe, for example, that what Trump is doing in Iran is the right thing. I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself and to be a sovereign nation. I also simultaneously believe that a two state solution is necessary. These are the same positions that I have had my entire life. And I will not change it and I will continue to espouse it, whether the microphone is here at WABC on my Substack or on any of my other platforms.
So I don't know who the gentleman was that was talking about me.
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: It doesn't mean anything.
TAPPER: Former prosecutor.
COHEN: They have --
TAPPER: Yes.
COHEN: -- they have every right to say whatever it is. Just because you have an opinion does not make it factually correct.
TAPPER: But do you still think President Trump is a racist and a con man and a cheat and mob style boss?
COHEN: You know, again -- right, but what you're doing is you're trying to go back in time, and I refuse to do that. I will not do that.
TAPPER: Michael Cohen, thank you so much. We'll be listening to your show.
COHEN: Yes, it's going to be a doozy. A lot of -- lot of bombs get dropped.
TAPPER: And let's hope that you mean that rhetorically.
COHEN: No pun intended.
TAPPER: Yes. All right, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Let's talk about this now with former White House communications director under Donald Trump in the first term, Alyssa Farah Griffin, and CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig.
Alyssa, your reaction?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Lot to unpack there. Listen, Jake, I think your last question was the key one. I was listening to this entire interview, you know, I want to leave this in the past. We're moving forward. Well, does Michael Cohen stand by the many things he says, said and wrote about this president? A racist, a bully, a con man, a liar?
Listen, I've only met him a few times. I don't know him personally. But I think that the entire Michael Cohen, you know, existence can be summed up as opportunism. This is somebody who was by Donald Trump's side when he supposedly, as he later testified, was being asked to commit crimes. Then he flipped when it was convenient, and then now Donald Trump is back in power.
He's the president. He's arguably the most powerful man on the planet. And now he's back in his good graces. I would like to put Michael Cohen in terms of, like, political perspectives, up on the shelf with Michael Avenatti, another, you know, Trump won resistance hero who we really just don't need to hear much more from. I don't know that there's a strong moral compass there.
He said worse things about the president than I would certainly ever say. And I just -- I don't know that there's a lot of value to his ever waffling opinions.
TAPPER: It's true. He said worse things about the president than I would ever say. So has Vice President J.D. Vance said worse things about Donald Trump than I would ever say?
Elie -- go ahead.
GRIFFIN: Yes, but he has more of an explanation. I didn't hear any, really any true explanation of why he evolved on everything he said about Trump as recently as a year and a half ago.
TAPPER: Elie, you know, Michael Cohen, your reaction?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I like Michael Cohen and I'm friendly with him. I'm also clear about who and what he is. And anyone who cheered that hush money prosecution to Donald Trump two years ago has nothing left to stand on. Because now the star witness, the guy who is the reason why every prosecutor who looked at this case, including the Biden DOJ, the prior liberal Democratic DA passed on charging this case is because they didn't trust Michael Cohen beyond a reasonable doubt.
Alvin Bragg rolled that dice. And now Michael Cohen has said publicly that he, quote, "felt" --
TAPPER: Felt.
HONIG: -- felt important, felt pressured and coerced by prosecutors. So where do you stand on Michael Cohen now? If you believe he's a truth teller, then he felt pressured and coerced by prosecutors. That's not acceptable. If you believe he's a liar, then your case is built on a liar.
So that case is going through its appeal process incredibly slowly. I think there are major legal infirmities with it. But now the factual predicate has collapsed as well.
TAPPER: Yes. Bad week for the resistance.
Alyssa, we've seen a lot of people come in and out of the Trump orbit over the years. We've never really seen a relationship quite like this. And I have to say, it did look permanently broken, and now I guess it's not.
[17:20:15]
GRIFFIN: Yes. This is one reunion I didn't expect to see. But keep in mind, there's a little bit of a myth that once somebody falls out of Donald Trump's good graces, there's never a chance to get back in. Donald Trump actually really loves a convert. I think of, you know, Mitt Romney, who he really sparred with, and then he loves the opportunity to really ritually humiliate people where he had him to dinner, he was going to -- he wanted to be secretary of State, and he ultimately didn't offer him it.
I also remember in the first Trump term, Steve Bannon was in, then he was out, then he was back in. Tucker Carlson's been in and then back out, and then right now, still out of the fold. So Trump's actually quite willing to take a convert if he believes that they're truly loyal to him. And from the president's perspective, this is kind of a low risk relationship at this point. He has very little to, you know, if anything, it's only Michael Cohen who has to gain here.
So I think this is really just going back to somebody who he feels wronged him and making him go through the ritual humiliation of sucking up to him. And here we are.
TAPPER: And, Elie, I don't think we should ignore the fact that in our conversation just now, Michael Cohen acknowledged that the pardon application he had submitted to President Biden that was rejected, he put a new cover letter on top and submitted it to President Trump, and it has not been rejected.
HONIG: Yes. It's a fascinating social experiment. Is it, right? He took -- he took the exact same pardon application supported by a bunch of liberal prominent voices, which was not acted on by Biden. Now he's resubmitted it to Trump. I don't know whether the same people --
TAPPER: Recommendations, yes.
HONIG: Yes. I don't know if the same people stand by him now that he has come out and said, I felt pressure and coerced. But, you know, to Alyssa's point, there never does seem to be a full final end to a relationship between Donald Trump and anyone else, but, man, I never would have expected this. I really -- I did Michael Cohen's podcast several times, and it's the only time I ever had to stop a podcast and say to the producers, cut that out, what he just said, or I'm leaving. Because he said things that were so insanely offensive about Donald Trump.
So inappropriate. It's the only time I ever said I'm leaving if you don't cut that, what he just said. So now they're buddies again. But who -- I can't predict these two. I don't know.
TAPPER: Elie Honig, Alyssa Farah Griffin, thanks to both you.
Coming up next, first on The Lead, what sources are telling CNN about the U.S. Navy scrapping plans to rename an aircraft carrier after a Black World War II hero and possibly instead naming the ship after Donald J. Trump.
But first, breaking in our Money Lead, the Dow's worst day this month, falling more than 700 points -- 700 points. The S &P and Nasdaq also down all on the heels of the national debt surpassing the $40 trillion mark. Trillion with a T-R and a surge in oil prices. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:26:44]
TAPPER: Breaking now in our World Lead to CNN exclusive, the United States Navy is considering renaming an aircraft carrier that is set to honor a Black World War II hero to potentially honor President Trump instead. World War II Hero Ship Cook 3rd Class Doris Miller jumped into action during the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. He carried several wounded shipmates to safety, then manned an anti-aircraft gun despite no prior training because only white soldiers were trained on them back then. His actions were portrayed in the 2001 film "Pearl Harbor."
The USS Doris Miller was announced in Trump's first term on Martin Luther King Jr. Day in 2020 and is set to be commissioned in the mid- 2030s. Or is it?
Joining us now, CNN's Haley Britzky who broke the story along with our Pamela Brown.
Haley, has an aircraft carrier ever been named after a sitting president before?
HALEY BRITZKY, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: It hasn't. It would be kind of unprecedented to do that. There's obviously carriers that are named after presidents in general, but none who are sitting. So that would certainly be a break in precedent and how they go about naming these carriers.
TAPPER: And what has been the response to this story, to the idea that this honor for this World War II hero might be taken away?
BRITZKY: Yes, I mean, when we, Pam and I, who were reporting this story, we certainly heard concern from sources who were not sure what this would look like. But as we've reported, you know, they -- the Navy does seem to be trying to find another ship to name after Miller, that they have submitted him for a Medal of Honor. But certainly it raises questions about what this could look like for the Miller family. I spoke with Doris Miller's great nephew who said the family had not been informed of this yet and that they hadn't been informed of this renewed push for the Medal of Honor for Doris Miller either. So certainly something that the family has questions on as well.
TAPPER: Haley Britzky, thanks so much.
Joining us now to discuss Democratic congressman from Colorado and retired U.S. Army Ranger Jason Crow.
Congressman, what's your reaction to this?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, who could possibly be surprised that Donald Trump thinks that he's more befitting an honor like this than a World War II and American war hero, Doris Miller, right? This is a man -- Donald Trump is a five time draft dodger. He's called veterans, suckers, losers. He refused to go to American military cemetery in Europe because it was raining.
You know, the through line to all of this is that Donald Trump is a man that can't comprehend the very notion that somebody could put service above self, that they could be a part of something bigger than themselves and sacrifice to something bigger. In his mind that means that you're a chump, right? Why would you possibly do that if there's not something in it for you?
So I really hope this is not true. You know, my hopes are repeatedly dashed under the Trump administration. So it probably is. And we'll fight it like we do many of the other egregious things they do.
TAPPER: The USS George Washington aircraft carrier is in the Middle East to relieve the USS Abraham Lincoln, which just started making its way back to the United States after this record breaking deployment. You did three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. What kind of relief do you think the service members aboard the Lincoln are feeling right now?
CROW: This is long overdue. The service members on the Lincoln have done more than their time on station.
[17:30:04]
About five months would be the average for an aircraft carrier like this. This actually set a record for the longest deployment of a modern aircraft carrier in U.S. Naval history, which is not a record you want to be setting. And I think there's an important distinction here, because I've heard Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump and others in the administration say, well, people are trained to do tough things in the military. When you're at war, you do tough things.
But here's the difference. I was a Ranger, as you pointed out. I was a paratrooper in Iraq and Afghanistan. And, yes, you do tough things when you have to do tough things when the mission requires it.
In this case, our service members, these men and women aboard the Lincoln have been put through these conditions unnecessarily because of poor planning, poor stockpiling, no strategy, poor leadership. In the case of Pete Hegseth, this is unnecessary suffering that has impacted their health, their welfare in the national security of the country, because we now have an aircraft carrier that's been taken off station, and we've been able to. We've had to move naval assets from around the world the backfill for this.
Right now, this is astonishing fact. Right now, we don't have any aircraft carrier battle groups within the Indo Pacific to push back on China's aggression. That is a major problem.
TAPPER: And Secretary Hegseth, one of the things he said is he suggested that these stories aren't true, that the reports are false. I was interviewing a Blue Star wife who got very upset when she heard that because she'd been hearing these complaints directly from her husband on board the USS Abraham Lincoln.
Hegseth also suggesting that the American reporters who have been covering this story are somehow less than American. He put American in quotes when talking about the American media. What's your response to that?
CROW: Well, that's what they do. That's their playbook, right? If somebody tells the truth, if somebody points out their failures, their incompetence, or their corruption, as the case may be, they say it's fake news. They say it's not happening. So the first thing they try to do is they try to prevent people from even knowing it in the first instance, which is why they've kicked out of the Pentagon most of the Press Corps.
For the first time in my life, most of the Press Corps has been kicked out of the Pentagon and had their credentials removed. You know who hasn't had their credentials removed is Laura Loomer, who never had credentials in the first place and has been granted them by the Trump administration. So they try to hide it. We have -- I joined a letter earlier this week, 50 members of Congress sent a letter to Pete Hegseth demanding information on what's happening. They, of course, are not responding to our request for information, our request for briefings and hearings. That's the first thing they do.
If people do find out the truth and if they do uncover it, then they attack that person. They say it's not true. They say it's fake news, any manner of lies and distortions. But we know the truth. Our service members know the truth. And we're going to continue to hold them accountable for it.
TAPPER: Democratic congressman from Colorado, Jason Crow, thank you so much, sir. Appreciate it. And as always, thank you for your service.
CROW: Thank you.
TAPPER: Up next, first lady Melania Trump, how she's acknowledging her recent public absence, plus her brand new White House initiative. And a rare moment outside court today, a large showing of support for the accused murderer, the person on trial, Lindsay Clancy, the mother who admits she killed her three children but argues she should not be held criminally responsible because she had postpartum psychosis.
We're going to take a closer look at this condition that has so many women confusingly coming to Clancy's defense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:37:52]
TAPPER: Turning to the Politics Lead and first lady Melania Trump moments ago well aware she's kept a low profile lately. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Good afternoon. I heard you missed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: First lady was last seen in public two months ago. She missed Senator Lindsey Graham's funeral, the rescheduled White House Correspondents' Dinner, and the dignified transfer of U.S. service members killed in the Iran war. But she appeared today launching a new initiative to help teens in foster care. Our panel is here now.
Kate, it is certainly one of the more unusual first lady reigns ever. Even more unusual than her first reign.
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is. It's odd, and especially at a time when the president's approval rating is so low. And Republicans are looking at a potentially very difficult November. Typically, a White House would be using every single option available to them to reach out to voters. You're trying to, you know, you're trying to flood the zone.
Typically, the first lady would be a big part of that. You know, Melania Trump has historically not been a typical first lady and not been a first lady who's been -- who has seemed to be particularly interested in politics. So, you know, perhaps it's not all that surprising, but it is sort of -- it is sort of strange to leave a player off the field when you are behind, when you're -- when you're down in the game.
TAPPER: Yes. Do you remember in April, she gave that very odd statement about Jeffrey Epstein trying to distance herself from it? Nobody really was sure what she was talking about or why she was bringing it up. Democrat from California, Robert Garcia. Congressman Garcia, who was the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. He says Melania is on the list to question in the Democrats investigation into the Epstein files. What do you think about that?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's. I mean, I try. The only reason I follow Epstein's stuff is because it's an occupational requirement.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes.
GOLDBERG: So I tend to purge my hard drive of Epstein memories pretty quickly. But there were -- at the very least, there were rumors that, you know, which she denied. She got very angry about that.
TAPPER: She sued I think.
GOLDBERG: She came in on a visa that Epstein helped do and all that.
TAPPER: Right.
[17:40:00]
GOLDBERG: I take her word for it that that's not true. Whatever. But one could -- one can forgive Melania Trump for just being like, I'm done with this stuff. Call me if you need me.
TAPPER: Yes. GOLDBERG: And to Kate's point, it probably didn't occur to anybody, like, because Donald Trump's doing a lot of things that you wouldn't do if you took the midterm seriously.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes. Yes.
TAPPER: Like talking about construction projects.
GOLDBERG: That's right. You know how he, he's really good at flagpoles. That's the kind of message.
TAPPER: The taper.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
TAPPER: The tapering I haven't heard that much boasting about tapers since George Brett, but that's another. Carine, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy's long awaited reality show Great American Road Trip is out after months of delays. In the second episode, the family tours Boston College and Harvard, two schools their daughter Paloma is considering Duffy and his wife Rachel Campos. Duffy said they were hesitant about Harvard due to their Catholic beliefs. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: They have professionalized figuring out how they can take good young girls like you and I think corrupt their minds. You don't have to believe what I believe. You don't have to have the political viewpoints that I have. But I do think it's important that you make those choices for yourself and you have a fair representation of what they are you. And I don't think the Harvards of the world give you that kind of well-rounded picture.
PALOMA DUFFY, DAUGTHER OF SEAN DUFFY: But I went to an extremely conservative school in high school and I'm part of this extremely conservative family and that if I go to a liberal setting, that's a way more rounded education.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Interesting argument. You're a Harvard grad and I think you're uncorrupted as far as I can tell.
CARINE HAJJAR, MEMBER, WASHINGTON POST EDITORIAL BOARD: I appreciate that.
TAPPER: What do you think?
HAJJAR: Well, as a young conservative woman, also a Catholic, that went to Harvard, I can say that you can come out the other side without, I guess, being corrupted. Nothing actually made me more sure of my beliefs than going to Harvard and having them tested day after day after day. It was a fantastic education in that way.
And I think that Harvard students could certainly use more viewpoints in their education. It's something that I've written about, it's something that I've argued for and it's something that the university at this moment seems to be taking more seriously. But look, it comes down to your personal preferences, I think that strong minded individuals can go into a setting where people disagree with them and learn a lot from it.
TAPPER: Wonderful conversation. Kate, Senator Jon Ossoff who's not only running for Senate but also might be running for president in 2028. He set off this personal feud with the White House when he invoked the name of Natalie Harp. President Trump wanting to travel with Natalie and talk about his construction projects and the White House got very -- the White House, let's be honest, made this a much bigger story than it would have been.
BEDINGFIELD: The Streisand effect.
TAPPER: The Streisand effect. But Ossoff's doing his part too. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): Whether it's Natalie Harp printing out Donald Trump's daily dose of delusion and flattery, or Peter Navarro steering taxpayer funded loans to Trump family Investments, or Pete Hegseth deluding the president daily into deepening this quagmire in the Middle East, no one cares about their feelings. This entire White House is responsible for lying the country into war. And for the rest of their careers they will be known for having participated in this obscenity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What's your take on that? It looks like he's tweaked the Natalie Harp reference at least a little bit.
BEDINGFIELD: Oh, actually, I'm not sure he did. I mean, the only thing that he said initially was that Trump wanted to travel with Natalie on the plane that was gifted by cutters.
TAPPER: You don't buy it that he was winking?
BEDINGFIELD: I think the only -- the only people who seem to be winking are the White House who responded with this -- with this overwhelming sort of pushback on the idea that somehow he had suggested they were having an inappropriate relationship. Yes, he didn't. And I think it's -- it is more than fair game. She is a 35- year-old woman. She is a staffer, a White House staffer paid by the taxpayers. It is absolutely fair to question.
We're now seeing reporting that she has refused potentially, has refused to complete the security clearance process, which means one of the people closest to the President of the United States who's seeing a of lot of the information he's seeing hasn't completed that process. So I think it's entirely fair for Jon Ossoff or any other, any -- any other person in this country to question whether those staffers are serving the American people or whether they are sheltering Donald Trump. TAPPER: You agree?
HAJJAR: I do think he moderated his tone a little bit in this clip. And I think that's actually smart. Look, nobody can out Trump, Trump. It's, we don't want off brand Trump. Democrats have to offer something better, I think to voters and they have an opportunity. Right now the President's approval is really hurting with this core constituency, working class white voters.
So if Democrats want to win back some cred with working class voters, I don't think an off brand message is what they should be offering. It should be a better message.
TAPPER: So, Jonah, congratulations are in order because the United States hit $40 trillion in debt this week. We had on Republicans, Democrats to talk about this with.
[17:45:04]
And nobody, you know, all the Republicans are all blaming the Democrats. Democrats, you know, what do you think of it?
GOLDBERG: Stock up on bottled water. Look, the simple -
TAPPER: There it is right now if you want to keep --
GOLDBERG: Virtually everything people say about the national debt in a partisan way is true. The problem is they're also hypocrites for saying it because the Democrats ran up a huge amount of debt. Republicans ran up a huge amount of debt. Congress, regardless of which party ran it, Donald Trump has run up a really spectacular amount.
TAPPER: I think about a quarter of it is his.
GOLDBERG: Yes, it's a lot. It's like, you know, they used to say that Donald Trump has more ex-wives than the previous 45 presidents combined. He hasn't quite run up as much debt as the previous 45 presidents combined. But he's in the running for it. And at the end of the day, you know, Herb Stein, Nixon's former chief economic adviser, said he coined Stein's law, that which cannot go on forever must eventually stop.
This is unsustainable --
TAPPER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: -- and we don't know when -- as Paul Ryan used to say, it's the most predictable national crisis in the history of America because it is literally impossible to sustain indefinitely. And the consensus in Washington is to sustain it.
TAPPER: Yes. Thanks all you. Appreciate it. Coming up, what authorities revealed today about an ISIS inspired bomb plot at a state capitol building and a woman, woman now in custody. Plus, moments ago here on The Lead, an exclusive interview with Trump former fixer Michael Cohen confirming that he has submitted a pardon application to the Biden administration was denied. And then he submitted another pardon application. Basically just a new cover letter to President Trump. Much more of his conversation. Plus what he heard today from President Trump after their very public falling out.
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[17:51:09]
TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead. Hundreds of people, mostly women dressed in pink, gathered outside a Massachusetts courthouse today in support of Lindsey Clancy, who is on trial over her criminal responsibility in her killings of her three children in January 2023. Supporters say that the case is drawing attention to women's mental health and postpartum psychosis, which Clancy's attorney says she was suffering from during the time of the killings. It's a rare condition that impacts about one in every thousand women after delivery.
Inside the court, jurors heard from just one witness today before being dismissed early, hospital chaplain Sheila Cavanaugh, who testified that she met with Clancy following the killings and following Clancy's suicide attempt and 200 more times over the last few years. CNN's Jean Casarez joins us now. So, Jean, give us the highlights from the chaplain's testimony.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a bombshell, an absolute bombshell. She is a board certified chaplain. She has her master's degree. She is at the hospital that Lindsey Clancy first went to. She was in her room within hours that Lindsey was admitted, but she was intubated and so she couldn't speak with her. She went back one week later, January 31st, Lindsay Clancy was not intubated anymore. Lindsay Clancy started to speak to the chaplain. Listen to what she told her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILA CAVANAUGH, BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL: When I went in on Tuesday the 31st, she said to me as I held her hand to comfort her, I am so glad my children are safe. She alluded to having heard a voice. And the voice, according to Lindsay, told her that if she did not follow the command, neither she nor her children would be safe. She alluded to the fact that it was a male voice and it was persistent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: But then there was cross examination. On cross-examination, the prosecutor said, you visited her 14 times at the hospital, almost 200 times. Once she got to Duxbury, where she is now as a public hospital. And you have copious notes. You have, quote, marks of things she said. And never once in any note on any page did you write that she told you that a male voice was telling her, commanding her to kill the children.
Well, on redirect, the defense said, well, this was confidential information. You didn't tell her. You didn't write it down because of that. However, yesterday, you know, you got to put all the pieces together. Yesterday, the forensic psychologist testified that Lindsay never told him about a male voice commanding to kill the children. But he learned it from the chaplain. So the chaplain told him, but she didn't write it in her notes.
TAPPER: What's coming next in the trial when the jury reconvenes?
CASAREZ: Trial defense is very close to resting. And they say they have one more witness. They've listed two names. One is Dr. Philip Resnik. He was involved in the Andrea Yates case in Texas. Iconic, historic
case of a mother who killed her children. And the other is Dr. Spinelli, who is one of the foremost experts of postpartum depression. But they say one more witness. So I think either one of those will be taking the stand.
TAPPER: All right, Jean Casarez, thank you so much. Joining us now is reproductive psychiatrist Dr. Catherine Birndorf. She's the co- founder, CEO and medical director of the Motherhood Center of New York.
Dr. Birndorf, we saw this crowd outside the courthouse specifically supporting Lindsay Clancy today. But even beyond her supporters, this case really seems to have touched a nerve for women. Why do you think that is?
DR. CATHERINE BIRNDORF, CO-FOUNDER, CEO AND MEDICAL DIRECTOR, THE MOTHERHOOD CENTER OF NEW YORK: I think these conditions are much more common than we realize. And I think people are coming out in droves to say, that could have been me. I see you and I recognize you. And many women have had these conditions and want to talk about it.
TAPPER: Well, tell me about that. Are you saying that postpartum psychosis is more common than we know?
[17:55:04]
Or are you saying that this is more a question of women, whether they have postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression or just struggles after they deliver, not feeling supported, not feeling supported by the healthcare world, not feeling supported by their husbands. What do you mean?
BIRNDORF: Can I say yes to all of that?
TAPPER: Yes, sure you can, Jake.
BIRNDORF: All of that is true. I think that women don't feel supported by the healthcare system. I think the system isn't set up to support moms in a way that's needed. Right. Paid leave, you know, affordable child care and maternal mental health. There's a lot to be said for it. So what I meant, though, when I said it is, you know, one in five women will struggle with what we call a perinatal mood or anxiety disorder. Right. That's the whole gamut. That's everything from depression, anxiety, OCD, PTSD, or postpartum psychosis. One in five will struggle from one of those things.
Now, postpartum psychosis is the most uncommon. I don't like to say rare. I prefer uncommon. Up to 8,000 women, maybe more a year, will have postpartum psychosis. So it's not that uncommon, and we must deal with it. And I think that's what we're seeing.
TAPPER: Yes. What strikes me when I -- when I hear about the case is all the times that she sought help or cried for help and wasn't heard. And I don't know who's rallying for her outside the courthouse, but I got to imagine that they're not cheering the murders of the children. They're saying, I mean, I'm being charitable here, but my guess is that they're saying, like, I've been there, as you just said.
I mean, she saw psychiatrists and therapists. She tried any number of medications. She contacted the suicide hotline, several emergency services. She was discharged from the emergency department after trying to admit herself for postpartum depression. I mean, I can't even believe all the time she tried to get help and people just ignored her.
BIRNDORF: You know, at the Motherhood Center that has been around now almost 10 years, we hear this all the time. People go for help, and they are not. They go. They say what they can. They're trying to get someone to listen. And really, there are a lack of experts who understand this and recognize it. We don't have enough trained professionals doing this.
And this is a -- these are tricky diagnoses because it can look a lot like postpartum for anybody. Right. People aren't sleeping well, eating well, can't concentrate. They feel kind of low and tired and exhausted. And those can be signs and symptoms of depression. And in the worst case, it can be signs and symptoms of psychosis when there's truly a lack of sleep and sort of an energized feeling. And it can wax and wane. So honestly, I get how it's missed.
You really have to be trained to understand what it is to diagnose and treat this, which is why the awareness of it and the education around it is so essential.
TAPPER: What do you recommend? If one of our viewers right now watching at home is struggling with some sort of perinatal mental health disorder or has a loved one dealing with one, what do they need to do?
BIRNDORF: Well, I really commend people who keep pushing. I mean, it can be the hardest time to keep asking for help, but our loved ones and family and friends are seeing us not seem normal. Right. We somehow seem out of our usual character. So if we're seeing that, help them, be an advocate, go with them. Don't take no for an answer. Right? Keep pushing and going and finding someone who will listen.
And sometimes it takes finding that expert. Postpartum Support International. There are a lot of organizations that really can help. So support women and families when they're struggling. So the help is out there. There's not enough. We need better access. We need insurance coverage. There's so many problems. But this is a hopeful condition. This is a fully treatable what happened so unfortunate and tragic. But postpartum psychosis is temporary, it's treatable and women fully recover from it. And when they're not treated, horrible things can happen.
TAPPER: Dr. Catherine Birndorf, thank you so much for your time today. And if you or someone you know is in crisis and needs help, please call the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Someone there is available 24 hours, seven days a week. The number to call or text anytime is 988. That number is 988. There is help for you. There is love for you.
Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. A racist, a con man, a Cheeto dusted cartoon villain. Michael Cohen, used all of those words to describe Donald Trump. And now Cohen tells me his relationship with Trump is, quote --
