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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Soon, Trump Speaks In Ohio As His Policies Threaten GOP Seat; James Talarico Dismisses Mental Health Conspiracy Theories; Daughter Of Fort Hood Victim On Proposed Execution Live Stream; Elon Musk Re- Emerges As Top Booster For GOP With $276M In Donations; Witnesses, Police: One Dead After Falling From A Ride At Six Flags Over Georgia; Actor Russell Brand Appears For First Day Of Trial In London. Aired 6- 7p ET

Aired October 12, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I am Jake Tapper.

This hour, President Trump is on his way to yet another red state, playing defense with just about three weeks until the midterm polls close, and this comes as a growing number of Republicans are telling CNN that they are worried that the president is a drag on the party, an albatross, if you will. We're live on the campaign trail in moments.

Plus, is Elon Musk trying to reclaim his title of First Buddy? The richest man in the world has now donated more than $275 million to try and keep Republicans in power. The director of a brand-new Elon Musk documentary will join us to share what he learned after his work profiling the man behind DOGE.

And President Trump now says he hasn't made a final decision on whether to live-stream the firing squad execution of Nidal Hasan, who killed 13 people at Fort Hood in 2009. The daughter of one of those innocent men killed in that attack will join us live ahead to share what she thinks about this live stream proposal.

The Lead tonight, all eyes on President Trump's campaign rally in Ohio tonight, where Republicans worry it's possible his presence and what he says may ultimately do more harm than good. With just 22 days left until the midterm elections, Republicans are increasingly panicking they're going to lose total control of Congress in the House and the Senate.

Trump's plummeting unpopularity due to the war in Iran, the affordability crisis, and more, is forcing the party into triage mode as they pour hundreds of millions of dollars of, and resources into typically safe red districts and states. And, yes, that includes Ohio, where President Trump will campaign tonight, Ohio, where 76 percent of likely voters directly tie President Trump's policies to the higher cost of living, according to the latest CNN poll.

That poll also showing a major pickup opportunity for Democrats in the Senate. Democratic former Senator Sherrod Brown holds a six-point lead among likely voters over current Republican Senator, John Husted, who was appointed to that position.

CNN's Betsy Klein is in Youngstown, Ohio, and CNN's Manu Raju is in Lawrence, Kansas. Betsy, President Trump just left the White House on his way to you. He's going to hold that critical midterm campaign rally soon. What is his message supposed to be, and of course, how worried are Republicans that, A, he's not going to stick to it, and, B, his presence is actually going to be a net negative for Senator Husted?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Always a good question, Jake. But I would expect a lot of red meat for what are some of the president's most ardent supporters here in Ohio, and that is because the goal of President Trump's midterm travel blitz, according to his advisers, is to juice turnout among his MAGA base. They are not necessarily looking to find new voters or bring independent voters into the fold.

They are looking to turn out the voters that they have. And we are seeing some candidates make the calculation that it's important to place some strategic distance between themselves and the president and his policies. But there are two candidates in very tight races here in Ohio, the gubernatorial candidate, Vivek Ramaswamy, as well as the Senate candidate, Senator Jon Husted, who are making the calculation that they want to hold the president close, both of them here tonight.

Now, Youngstown, Ohio, is in a county that voted overwhelmingly for President Barack Obama back in 2012, but we have seen it become progressively more red over the years. Back in 2024, President Trump won this county by over nine points. But in the president's telling, these rallies are having a massive impact. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think the rallies have had a massive impact. You see the numbers go up every time I have a rally. It's beyond the area, too. And they're -- every one of them is sold out, every one of them has thousands of people standing outside of --

REPORTER: So, is your expectation that Republicans will win the House?

TRUMP: I think we're going to do well. You know, look sitting presidents seem not to do well in midterms. You know, it's I think 2 out of 25. But we've had a great presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KLEIN: Now we are 22 days out, and Republicans are running into some serious headwinds. Privately, Trump advisers concede that they could lose control of the House. They're also increasingly concerned that they could also lose the Senate as well. And that is in part because of this war with Iran driving up gas prices now at $4.35 a gallon, spent a lot of time tonight talking to voters here in Ohio about that. They said that they are concerned about high gas prices, but don't blame the president. Jake?

TAPPER: And, Manu, you're in Kansas of all places. Kansas Democrats have a chance to win a Senate race for the first time in nearly a century. So, you've spoken to the Democratic Candidate Adam Hamilton. Tell us more.

[18:05:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And, actually, Jake, he is railing against President Trump's record, and maybe that's a bit of a surprise given that Trump has won this state overwhelmingly three different times, all by double digits. But going after Trump's record on the economy, on diesel prices, on gas prices, on the Iran war, criticizing what he calls a lack of decency in Washington, and trying to tie Roger Marshall, the incumbent Republican senator, to President Trump, very much showing how Hamilton views this moment.

Now, Hamilton's also been bolstered by his own political identity. He is the head of the largest United Methodist Churches, Church in the entire country, the largest church here in the state of Kansas. And that is actually something that both J.D. Vance, the vice president, has been attacking Hamilton over, questioning his faith. The president himself also going after Hamilton's faith.

I asked Hamilton about those attacks coming from the president and the vice president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: The president just said that you could cause turmoil in your church, and J.D. Vance said that you believe in left-wing radicalism in the skin suit of your religion.

I know you disagree with all that, but when you look back at some of your past sermons, did you ever say things that were outside of the political mainstream?

ADAM HAMILTON (D), KANSAS SENATE CANDIDATE: If you actually read and study the body of my work, the real left people look at me and they're worried I'm just too much of a centrist.

I wake up every morning and say, here I am, Lord. Please use me to do whatever you want. Help me to pay attention and help me care for people. That's my faith. I follow Jesus, and I want to encourage others to do the same.

And I guess I would ask the question, you know, do the policies of Vice President Vance and Donald Trump, do they reflect the Jesus of the Gospels? And the answer is no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And so the president this afternoon too, Jake, going after Hamilton very pointedly on Truth Social. In fact, posting just earlier this afternoon, he said that, I can state, as someone who got a massive majority of the evangelical vote, I can state unequivocally that Adam Hamilton is not one of the -- us. He is a radical left lunatic, as the president says, Democrat, saying his values are not those of the people of the United States, Kansas, or the United States of America.

I asked Hamilton about those comments. He, of course, rejected those comments, and he also indicated that he has no interest in his own current leadership of the Democratic Party in the United States Senate. He said it's time for Chuck Schumer to go as a Democratic -- as the top Democrat in his chamber. And he said that the Democratic brand is toxic, but he says Kansas are looking for people who can cut deals, moderate Democrats like him. That's the message he's trying to sell to voters here over the next three weeks. Jake?

TAPPER: And, Betsy, you just spotted Republican Congressman Max Miller in the crowd, the embattled congressman. What do we know about his re- election bid? How's that going?

KLEIN: Yes, all credit to our colleague, Khalil Abdallah, the intrepid photojournalist who spotted the embattled congressman just a few moments ago taking photos with supporters. But you'll recall that Miller has been embroiled in this very messy custody battle with his ex-wife, who is the daughter of Senator Bernie Moreno, who's speaking behind me right now.

And this should, by all accounts, be an easy race for Miller. He won by about 15 points back in 2024, but all of the polling indicates that this is going to be very tight because Democrats see an opportunity. They are pouring money into this race. We'll have to see if the president weighs in on that tonight. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Betsy Klein and Manu Raju, thanks so much.

Let's discuss now with David Chalian, CNN's Washington bureau chief and also our political director. David, does President Trump going to Ohio help Ohio Republicans?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: It can potentially. Obviously, he's underwater in Ohio. You cited, I think, the most devastating poll number in our poll of Ohio from last week, which is that three-quarters of Ohio likely voters actually attach his policies to their economic pain. So, there's no doubt that there's a risk- reward calculation, but I understand the strategy because what is the one thing we've seen in poll after poll, in special election after special election? There is a Democratic enthusiasm that is overpowering the Republican enthusiasm.

And if the theory of the case is Donald Trump has a unique ability to go into some of these red pockets of America where the battlefield is and try and get some of that enthusiasm back up among his most faithful supporters to make sure they show up and vote in this midterm, you could see that that could mitigate some potential losses here as they try to shore up the overall map.

TAPPER: And look at this, this red state tour he's on. Ohio today.

CHALIAN: Yep.

TAPPER: Tomorrow, he goes to Alaska. Wednesday, Arizona and Montana. Friday, Georgia. What stands out to you other than how deeply red they are?

CHALIAN: I mean, that is what stands out. And I think it speaks to this is where it's safe for him to go. Again, you and I were just saying, there could be some negative to it, but this is where it is relatively safe for him to go to try and drive up MAGA turnout in a midterm election.

Remember, Jake, what we know about the coalition of voters in the MAGA movement is they're not necessarily the most reliable voters.

[18:10:05]

They show up in a presidential when he's on the ballot. They may not show up in a midterm. So, he wants to make the case for why they should show up in a midterm, that it actually will help his presidency in the last two years if he can maintain a Senate majority or a House majority. But my goodness, that is a deep red bit of traveling there.

TAPPER: I'm just having flashbacks to, I remember, I think it was Hillary Clinton closing election night in Philly in 2016, and me thinking, why are they in Philly? Like that is defense. That is not offense. And this is even more a defense, because Pennsylvania's at least a battleground state.

CHALIAN: Yes.

TAPPER: One House Republican running for re-election told CNN of the president's poll numbers, quote, Trump is dragging the party down. Trump is obviously in his second presidential term, structurally a lame duck as of a few weeks from now. Why did so many Republicans wait until now to start distancing themselves from him?

CHALIAN: And not even all of them are, right?

TAPPER: Oh, very few of them have --

CHALIAN: I mean, it's actually -- yes.

TAPPER: Very small, a small number.

CHALIAN: I mean, you're seeing it in very specific places and races.

But most of the Republican Party in elected officials are still very much with him. Why? Because he has a unique strength of relationship with their most ardent supporters.

So, throughout the entire primary season, some of them were concerned, well, if I don't stick with Donald Trump, maybe he's going to find a primary challenger in me, and he still has sway inside the Republican primary.

And when you pivot to the general, you know, at this point, they are so tied to him that I'm not sure separating is something voters are going to buy, given how identified the modern Republican Party is in his image.

TAPPER: Yes, interesting.

David Chalian, our bureau chief, thanks so much.

Texas Democrat James Talarico's back on the campaign trail after what he calls a nasty bout of the flu. His absence created a massive MAGA conspiracy theory that is short on facts and full of deranged hysteria. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: A wild story now about the mis and disinformation ecosystem in our Politics Lead. Texas Senate candidate -- Texas Democratic Senate Candidate James Talarico is today dismissing as nonsense the conspiracy theories claiming that he was off the campaign trail, not because he had flu, because he was seeking mental health treatment at a facility in Ohio. Here's what the Democrat told MS NOW.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES TALARICO (D), TEXAS SENATE CANDIDATE: I had the flu. This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. It's wild that someone can just post something on the internet, and then the media just runs with it. You know, I've heard credible reports that Ken Paxton has a serious medical condition that causes clinical levels of cowardice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, I wouldn't say that the media ran with it, maybe some in conservative media. It was right-wing influencers who first floated this nonsense, even posting audio in which somebody was pretending to be a cousin of Talarico, supposedly on the phone at a facility in Ohio. That Ohio hospital in question says Talarico never received treatment there. Talarico also posted last night, quote, I've never even been to Ohio, unquote.

Here now is Will Sommer. He's a senior reporter for The Bulwark who covers a lot of these wackos. Will, this conspiracy unraveled pretty fast, but let's talk about the timeline. The influencer, this right- wing campaign person, said that call was placed on Saturday night but these images show Talarico at an event in Texas on Friday. When did you start to notice that this claim just simply didn't even add up?

WILL SOMMER, SENIOR REPORTER, THE BULWAR: Yes. I mean, look, this idea that Talarico had been to this mental hospital, mental institution, was kind of bubbling for a couple days, and then as you said, on Sunday, this guy said, Look, I have an audio of a receptionist at this, this place in Ohio saying that Talarico was discharged Saturday evening.

Then you think about it, well, Talarico was at Austin City Limits on Friday, and then at on Saturday he was at the Kacey Musgraves concert there. So, clearly, he was not just discharged from any mental hospital in Ohio. You know, it didn't make sense. This guy claimed, well, you know, the paperwork might take a while. It is a claim nonetheless, despite those kind of basic factual errors that really took off on the right-wing internet.

TAPPER: And you reached out to the Republican operatives involved, and you obtained audio of the full phone call. Tell us more about that.

SOMMER: Yes. So, the initial phone call they released is very -- this receptionist seems very unconvinced that Talarico was a patient there. She says essentially, well, I guess if I can't find him, you know, maybe he was discharged this evening, and that was sort of what they clipped.

In the longer, you know, several, 6 minutes long audio this guy, as you said, poses as Talarico's cousin. He gives kind of a fake identification number to try to get information about a patient, and then the receptionist repeatedly says, there's no James Talarico here. I have no reference, idea that that's a patient. And then finally at the end she goes, as I said, well, maybe he was discharged. But, naturally, they cut all of that part out to make it look like this really conclusive evidence that they had found.

TAPPER: A lot of people who you would think should know better shared this nonsense on Twitter, including Talarico's Republican opponent, Ken Paxton. How have they responded to all of this once it became clear that this was all just a lie and a smear campaign?

SOMMER: Yes. I mean, look, you know, there was a Ken Paxton staffer who was saying, oh, yes, we all heard, you know, he was locked up, you know, getting treatment. There's been a lot of tweets being deleted. I think, personally, the operatives involved pretty clearly have risked some potential criminal exposure.

You know, you can't just call a hospital and lie about your identity to get patient information. So, I think people are kind of running right now, and they're saying, well, actually, having the flu is basically just as serious for his candidacy. You know, if he was really sick for a week, you know, he should probably drop out as well.

[18:20:02]

TAPPER: It certainly suggests desperation on the part of Republicans in this race. Beyond that, though, Will, since you cover so much of this disinformation sowed by the right wing, are we -- is it getting worse?

SOMMER: Yes. I mean, I would say there's this whole apparatus that is built around this. I mean, look, for example, Elon Musk, who obviously owns X, owns this platform, he loved this story. He was promoting it, embracing it. And so, really, whatever kind of moderation we got from social media platforms is gone. You know, I think people are really ready to run this stuff, and they just want to get it out there into the ecosystem, even if it's not true.

TAPPER: Will Sommers, thanks so much. Good to see you.

Don't miss CNN's town hall with James Talarico. That's going to be moderated by my friend and colleague, Erin Burnett. That's Wednesday at 8:00 Eastern. We have, of course, extended the same invitation to Ken Paxton.

TAPPER: As President Trump weighs the Pentagon's plan to live stream the execution of the Fort Hood shooter by firing squad, the daughter of one of the men killed in the Fort Hood attack by Nidal Hasan is going to join us to weigh in on what she thinks about the proposal for a live stream. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, House Speaker Mike Johnson is just the latest Republican official voicing concerns about Secretary Pete Hegseth's plan to live stream to the public the execution of Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you come down on this, and will you watch it?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We got to think through the policy implications of all that. I wouldn't be watching it if it was aired. I need to tell the White House what some of my colleagues think about that, and not everybody's in favor of the idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Nidal Hasan was inspired by Al-Qaeda when he, then an Army major, attacked the Texas military post in 2009. He killed 13 people. Their names are Retired Chief Warrant Officer Michael Grant Cahill, Major Lobardo Eduardo Caravejo, Army Staff Sergeant Justin DeCrow, Captain John Gaffaney, U.S. Army Specialist Frederick Green, Specialist Jason Dean Hunt, Sergeant Amy Krueger, Private First Class Aaron Thomas Nemelka, Private First Class Michael Pearson, Captain Russell Seager, Private Francheska Velez, Lieutenant Colonel Juanita L. Warman, and Specialist Kham Xiong.

Last week, Hegseth confirmed that the Pentagon's plans of live streaming Hasan's execution by military firing squad is on the table. President Trump said on Saturday that he would make the final call. This follows criticism from lawmakers and military figures and religious leaders.

For example, today the Archbishop for the Military Services, Timothy Broglio, expressed his disapproval in a statement saying, quote, this has the potential moral injury which the members of the firing squad might experience. Will it be considered? Will the exposure of a live stream to the young and impressionable during the 250th anniversary year of our independence be able to be repaired?

The U.S. military generally enjoys a good reputation in the world. Is there really a value to throwing them in the same boat with terrorists, unquote.

Family members of the victims are also sharing their opinions, including my next guest, and joining us now is Keely Vanacker, sorry. Her father, Michael Cahill, was a civilian physician assistant at Fort Hood who was tragically murdered that day. Keely, thanks so much for joining us, and our deepest condolences on the loss of your father.

You've said that seeing -- first of all, seeing Nidal Hasan's face everywhere as this unfolds has been bad, difficult, horrific. How are you and your family holding up?

KEELY CAHILL VANACKER, DAUGHTER OF FORT HOOD SHOOTING VICTIM MICHAEL CAHILL: So, last week was a hard week. You know, when everything came out Tuesday. Sorry, it just gets to you sometimes. It was a hard day, and it opens up all the old wounds and, you know, you're never prepared for it or anything. And so it's been kind of hard.

And, you know, we're all holding up as best we can. You know, this isn't a journey none of any of us wanted to be on and you know, we're pulled back in another direction again. So --

TAPPER: And what do you think about the idea of live-streaming the execution of this man?

VANACKER: I think that is absolutely the worst thing you can do. I think this has nothing to do with justice. This is becoming a tragedy turning into entertainment. And, you know, I can't imagine with social media how horrific it would be and how widespread it would be. It is not something that you could just get away from. And I don't think that this does not bring anyone's family back.

Live-streaming isn't a closure for any of us. You know, I can't speak for most of the families, but I can say, you know, several of those that I've talked to, like those who are prepared and ready and want this execution for their closure, live-streaming is just something that is not even on their radar that they think is okay. This is just a really horrible reaction and a way to handle this situation.

TAPPER: Has Secretary Hegseth or anyone from the Pentagon or anyone from the White House reached out to you or anyone in your family?

VANACKER: So, not at all. What I can tell you is throughout the entire court-martial, the prosecution team consistently reached out to families when it came to certain big decisions, and I'll give you an example.

[18:30:03]

Like one of those big decisions was, do we accept a plea deal or do we go forward with the court-martial, and understanding that a court- martial would take a long time and pursue the death penalty.

One of the issues, at the time with the military -- that was already fixed. This actual -- this incident fixed this. The military went and fixed this issue already where you -- if he were to take a plea deal, it would've been life with the possibility with parole. And that was not okay with any of us family members. And so we were able to voice that and were asked what our choices were. And so we -- since that was -- it was not an option for him to just plead to life and no parole, we did not want that, so we pursued the death penalty. And so we understand where this was going to end, where it was always going to end. But in this case, when it comes to the live-streaming, when it comes to a firing squad for somebody who is paralyzed, none of that, we were never consulted, never asked.

I found out on an Instagram reel. My son called me going, hey, mom, is this real? Like he found -- saw a meme, you know. He was like two when my father was killed. And, you know, that is not a way any of our -- that should -- it should never have been handled that way at all.

TAPPER: Before you go what do you want people to remember about your father?

VANACKER: He was an amazing man. Brilliant, smart, loved to read, loved to talk politics and philosophy and current events. He loved working with his patients, and he worked rural healthcare clinics where there was nobody there. Some of those places still have no healthcare after he left. He loved working with those soldiers and in V.A. hospitals with the veterans. He cared deeply about the care that they received.

TAPPER: He sounds like a very special guy.

Keely Cahill Vanacker, thank you so much, and may your father's memory be a blessing.

VANACKER: Thank you. And I appreciate you calling out those names because that is what we want people to remember. Thank you.

TAPPER: Of course. Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar says she, quote, will not be silenced after federal officials searched her home today. What we're learning about that ongoing investigation, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, federal officials from the Department of Homeland Security searched the D.C. home of Democratic Minnesota Congresswoman and Trump foe Ilhan Omar early this morning. The court-approved search comes after DHS officials said in recent months they've been looking into Omar over her family's immigration paperwork. She was a refugee from Somalia.

In a statement today, the Justice Department said this enforcement action is part of an ongoing federal criminal investigation. Congresswoman Omar posted on X or Twitter, quote, this is an attempt to target political enemies and weaponize federal law enforcement.

My panel joins me now. So, Elliot Williams, first of all, historically, although there have been exceptions to this, Jack Smith and James Comey come to mind, but, historically, the Justice Department has avoided doing anything like this publicly within 60 days of an election. ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, they have. And I'll even challenge the Jack Smith example because that was in direct response to a court order. He was simply filing something on the court. There's a long practice, Jake --

TAPPER: And that was a known case also.

WILLIAMS: It was a known case. It was public. There's a long practice of indictments, search warrants, and big investigative actions not happening within 60 days of an election. So, this is big, a big breach of longstanding Justice Department policy.

Now, that said, they're allowed to do it, but the mere fact that you're allowed to do something doesn't mean you should. And this was very poor form by the Justice Department.

TAPPER: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar has consistently been a target of the president's. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I love this Ilhan Omar, whatever the hell her name is, with the little hue, the little turban.

She ought to get the hell out of our country. She shouldn't be here. She shouldn't be in our country.

How about Ilhan Omar? She comes from Somalia.

All they have is crime and squalor, and she comes into our country and she says, my constitution allows me -- she's talking about our Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Skye Perryman, first of all, I can't imagine that helps the government's case if they actually charge her with anything. I mean, it seems rather vindictive.

SKYE PERRYMAN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, DEMOCRACY FORWARD: That's always the thing in these cases, is every time the president opens his mouth or his allies open his mouth, they make their case so much weaker because it shows that this isn't about justice. It's not about an actual search for the truth. It's always about a partisan political agenda or petty racism or xenophobia, like you see here.

TAPPER: Yes. And it can't have helped that Vice President Vance, several weeks ago, said that they'd been looking -- he'd been asking Stephen Miller what can they do. I mean, it looks like -- it doesn't look like a legitimate law enforcement action. It looks like the government's saying, oh, go after this enemy of ours.

WILLIAMS: Right. And once again these folks who are being targeted by the administration, all they can do is go to their attorneys, start pulling together that list of every single Truth Social post, every single statement by the vice president, and those are the things that will sink these cases, even in places, Jake, where there was a valid case maybe that these prosecutors could have brought, but they have sunk it with their own statements and comments.

PERRYMAN: Yes, the saying we have around our office is, Let them keep talking. Let them talk. Because every time they talk, they reveal that this is, has nothing to do with justice or with any type of legitimate purpose.

TAPPER: So, a lot of cases going on here. A federal judge today said she's furious and beyond disappointed after the Trump administration moved to cut down more than 400 trees at a public D.C. golf course over the weekend. She's now put a tentative hold on any further tree removal. She held an emergency hearing today. This is the course that Trump wants to renovate and turn it into a championship course.

[18:40:01]

Where do you see this going?

WILLIAMS: Yes. You know, the issue -- forget that this is about the trees. This is not about the trees. This is about the open defiance of a court order. It's easy, Jake, to get lost in the trees, not the forest here, but quite literally, this is about when a judge tells you to do something, you do it.

And the judge gave a very clear directive to the administration here not to take any major actions with respect to this construction. And they just -- once again, we saw it in immigration context, on criminal context and others, they get directions from judges and simply choose not to follow them.

And that's why we've all been -- both of us have been litigants at different points, but you particularly in these cases.

PERRYMAN: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And you don't want a judge pissed off at you, and this is where they are consistently every time with their behavior.

PERRYMAN: And I'll just say our team -- yes, our team is one of the co-counsel on this case for the plaintiffs. And this morning, it was unbelievable. I mean, the judge just said, you know, the government has come in here all the time and ask the judge to believe them, and she has in large part, you know, and yet this is what happens. On a Saturday when there was not an emergency, they come and rush and cut down all these trees after she had been very clear that this was a proceeding that needed to be heard.

TAPPER: And a Trump administration lawyer said, you know, well, we gave notice, and the judge said, no, you didn't.

PERRYMAN: No. And, in fact, you know what I mean? Our team was in the court on the Zoom hearing today. I mean, we had to ask for the meet and confer. We had to sort of pursue this, and now -- so she's very upset, and like you said, it's not about the trees. It's not about the golf course. This is about how this administration really is not respecting the federal courts.

TAPPER: You're also representing a plaintiff in a different court case rather. On Sunday, a federal judge ordered the White House to immediately stop airing those T.V. ads that were funded by taxpayer dollars, ads which, campaign-style, political, portraying the president in a favorable light, the subject of multiple lawsuits as inappropriate use of taxpayer funds.

And, Skye, your organization filed one of the lawsuits. Some of our viewers told Brian Stelter they saw the ads still airing in their cities even after the judge's decision.

PERRYMAN: Yes. So, it's -- I'm looking at the time. It says it's 6:41 East Coast time. The government will be filing something in the next few minutes in federal quarter, is at least due to. We've already been in court today to point this out. We've heard from a lot of concerned people as well. And so we're, you know, obviously prepared to pursue whatever we need to pursue to get this order enforced.

TAPPER: Is there any ramification if Trump and his minions keep just like defying judges?

WILLIAMS: I mean, certainly contempt is always an option whenever an attorney defies a court. There's potentially --

TAPPER: Contempt for who?

WILLIAMMS: Holding attorneys or government officials in contempt if they're, once again, openly defying court orders. Here, they've been given directions from a court. If they're not following them, a judge can bring them in and either fine them or, you know, take action against them, if they are.

TAPPER: Would -- I mean, would the lawyers could potentially go to jail? Could they get this far? I mean --

PERRYMAN: Look, there's a lot of -- I mean, there are a lot of consequences for lawyers, and that's one of the things that you see happening in these hearings. If you ever listen to them, you'll see the lawyers get very scared, the lawyers at the Department of Justice, when the judges start coming and asking, when did you know? What did you know? And the judges are really understanding this.

Of course, it took a long time for both lawyers on, you know, suing the government, as well as judges, to really realize what was happening with this Department of Justice. This is not normal. And you don't normally just jump to a conclusion that some lawyer is operating or the client's operating in a way that's in contempt. But we're now past that line. So, I think you're going to see more of these types of motions.

WILLIAMS: Quickly, for the benefit of our viewers, to be clear, the odds of someone ending up in jail on a count of contempt are very, very slim.

TAPPER: No, I know. WILLIAMS: Usually it'd be a fine of some kind.

TAPPER: But I also remember in -- during the recount and all the allegations after the 2020 election, all these lawyers saying things outside the courtroom about fraud and then going inside the courtroom telling the truth because they didn't want to be disbarred.

PERRYMAN: Absolutely. They can be disbarred.

WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely disbarred.

PERRYMAN: And there are some -- you know, look, there are some, there are penalties that I think you're going to start seeing.

TAPPER: Thanks to both of you.

Coming up next, a new documentary offering an unrelenting look into the mind of Elon Musk. We're going to talk to the legendary documentary filmmaker behind Musk next, who predicts the world's richest person is in for, quote, a lot of trouble.

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[18:47:44]

TAPPER: Our money lead now, Elon Musk takes the cake as the biggest known donor to the Republican Party ahead of the midterm elections. Just days before a key campaign finance disclosure deadline, a spokesperson confirmed that Musk dropped $276 million in donations since just July. This was first reported by "The New York Times".

The world's richest person is also the subject of a brand new documentary by legendary filmmaker Alex Gibney. The nearly four-hour saga "Musk" is in select theaters now, and it comes out nationwide on Friday.

Joining us now, documentary filmmaker, the Academy Award-winning Alex Gibney.

Alex, thanks so much for joining us.

So, I can't imagine this was an easy documentary to make. In addition to Musk calling you a douche and refusing to sit for an interview, you decided, and this is interesting to input the vast catalog of his existing interviews into an A.I. Elon and interviewed that version of him.

Explain why you -- why you decided to do that.

ALEX GIBNEY, DIRECTOR, "MUSK": Well, we went there because as we -- as we sort of mined the vast resource of everything he had said, he kept coming back to this idea over and over and over again that we're living in a kind of simulation. And he was certain that we were living in a kind of simulation, sort of existential video game.

So, the main subject of my film is not going to talk to me. So I thought, okay, how about a simulated interview? Now, for journalistic reasons, we used actual audio recordings, but then we sort of -- we designed an avatar of Elon, I think, a rather good looking one compared to the real McCoy.

And -- and then -- you know, in the edit when we wanted a rebuttal from Elon that would be forceful and, you know, reflect his point of view, we'd cut to the avatar. We, you know, we show the technique in the film.

I would say the only thing that's A.I. about it is the actual sync. Everything else we sort of designed. But yeah, that's, that was we decided to do it also seemed to lean in to sort of the sense of what was real and unreal, which is a theme in Elon Musk and also this kind of strange transference that we're all developing now with LLMs in the age of A.I.

TAPPER: So, he's obviously very, very powerful.

[18:50:01]

You told "Semafor's" podcast "Mixed Signals" that YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok all initially refused to run ads for your movie. You say that YouTube and Meta eventually apologized and said it was a mistake after an article came out about their refusal to run the ads.

GIBNEY: That's right.

TAPPER: This is all happening. As the tech giants were meeting at the White House for the state dinner with the Chinese dictator Xi Jinping.

Do you get the sense that the people running these social media giants feel that they need to protect Musk because they're of some sort of brotherhood, or do they just fear him?

GIBNEY: Well, I think it's a little bit of both. But, you know, I think there is a sort of conspiracy of intent and there's a limiting of points of view on all of these platforms that are designed to sort of constrain, criticism, you know, because anything that is considered to be political, which might be critical of the tech oligarchs, mysteriously isn't allowed on the platforms.

TAPPER: One thing that struck us was Musk's concern about A.I. in the film. And you included a clip from a panel where Musk said, quote, "We're headed toward either superintelligence or civilization ending."

Tell us more about what you what you learned about his philosophy on AI.

GIBNEY: Well, it's interesting because he does come out, um, early on talking about how with A.I., we're summoning the demon. But by the end, he's all in on A.I. with sort of the most reckless frontier A.I. company. And we chronicle how even as he was sounding the bell about the dangers of A.I., he was also exploring it in a rather reckless way at Tesla, which is something that led to many of the deaths at full -- at, you know, over this autopilot system that he had. So, he was always conflicted. And there's a lot of people who think

now that his early warnings were actually a means to get everybody else to slow down so that he could catch up.

TAPPER: You make the argument that Elon Musk embraced President Trump and needed him to win in order to get federal agencies to stop investigating him and his companies. Hence the slashing of federal jobs through DOGE, as you just alluded to.

What do you think is next for Musk? If the next president does not leave him alone the way that President Trump did?

GIBNEY: Well, when you say President Trump left him alone, I think that, you know, understates the case.

TAPPER: Well, investigatorily, I guess.

GIBNEY: Yeah. Oh, I see. Right. Well, I think he's in a lot of trouble. And I think this time, you know, he -- for a long time he tried to move with the administrations, you know, Tesla and SpaceX both benefited from a lot of generosity from the Obama administration, for example. But I think he kind of crossed the line with DOGE.

And I think if there is to be a Democratic Congress, well know soon, and/or a Democratic president in 2028. I think the investigations into Elon Musk for righteous legal reasons will be fast and furious.

TAPPER: Well, the film is out today and it will be out nationally on October 16th. Alex Gibney, thank you so much. The movie Musk.

GIBNEY: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Comedian and actor Russell Brand was in court today after pleading not guilty to charges of rape and sexual assault. We're going to walk you through what happened in this first day of his trial and what we expect to happen, next.

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[18:57:32]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news in our national lead. Witnesses say one person was killed and several people were injured when someone fell from a ride at Six Flags Over Georgia, just outside Atlanta.

Let's get to CNN's Mark Morales.

Mark, this is disturbing. What are you learning about what went wrong?

MARK MORALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Just a horrible sight for some of the folks that were there. Witnesses telling an affiliate of ours that they actually saw a man fall from one of these roller coasters. And as you said, there's one dead and several others that were injured.

And this whole thing happened just around 4:00 today. We had local police that were already stationed there. But you also had other officers on patrol, both teams responding to the incident as soon as it happened. Now, you also have detectives from the major case unit. They're there, and their job now is to figure out what went wrong and how did this all happen.

Now you also have a statement that was issued by the park itself, where they said that they were deeply saddened by this injury that happened to the guest, and their thoughts and heartfelt condolences are with this guest family -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Mark Morales, thank you so much.

In our law and justice lead, today mark the beginning of the trial of Russell Brand, the British comedian and actor whose career has been marked by provocation and eccentricity.

CNN's Max Foster is following the trial for us in London.

Max, what do we know about this case?

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, the comedian, actor and podcaster, was charged with rape and assault against six women between 1999 and 2009 in London and in Bournemouth, on the English south coast. The 51-year-old pleaded not guilty on three counts of rape, three of sexual assault and one indecent assault, and these allegations go back to the start of his career as a stand-up comic, who rose to fame as a U.K. TV and radio host, and with starring roles in Hollywood movies.

The allegations relate to his time in the U.K. He now lives in Florida and has three children. The trial started on Monday at London's Southwark Crown Court, with jury selection and Brand was accompanied to court by his wife Laura, and a bodyguard. There was a large media presence outside.

He didn't take any questions and the prosecution will open its case on Wednesday, and the trial is expected to last at least six weeks. He is on bail, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Max Foster, thanks so much for that.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram Threads X and on TikTok @JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X and Instagram @The LeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can watch the show on the CNN app. You should be downloading the CNN app.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.