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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Nancy Mace, (R-SC), Is Interviewed About Ramaswamy Stands By Ad Featuring Rival's Mom, Despite Backlash, Soon: Trump Rallies In South Carolina To Boost Darline Graham; Polling Firm Admits To Faking Data For "Social Experiment"; Trump: Released American Stephen Hubbard Lands In U.S. "Soon"; West Virginia Declares State Of Emergency Over High Diesel Prices. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 21, 2026 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: All right. Thanks to my panel. Really appreciate having all of you, especially you, the handsome David Urban. Thanks to all of you at home --

URBAN: Thank you.

HUNT: -- for watching as well. Don't go anywhere. Jake Tapper is standing by for "The Lead." Also handsome.

Hi, Jake.

Sorry. We were joking earlier.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Never mind, never mind. Kasie, we'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: see you tomorrow.

[17:00:42]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. And as indicated by CNN's election jam, we're going to start in our Politics Lead 13 days until midterm Election Day. And a brand new CNN- poll will not come as welcome news for Republicans. The poll shows that President Donald Trump's approval rating stands at a record low 32 percent.

Sixty-seven percent of Americans surveyed disapprove of the president's handling of his job. Democrats are entering the midterms with a 10 point advantage over Republicans nationwide in the generic ballot. So what is driving this?

Well, in the poll, soters (ph) expressed deep dissatisfaction with the economy and the state of the nation. And those sentiments are working against the GOP, the party in power, in its effort to hold on to control of Congress. Lest Democrats get too excited, a reminder that polls are just a snapshot of the overall mood of voters at any given moment in time. Polls do not guarantee a blue wave or any specific outcome in any given race in 13 days.

And look, if you're skeptical of public polls in this era, you're not alone. There are a lot of wise political observers who actually watch what the politicians and the political groups are doing instead of watching the polls. What are they doing that gives you the best indication of actual strategy and actual confidence, or lack thereof, based on much better and more expensive voter data that parties and politicians are paying for.

So what do I mean when I say watch what they're doing? I mean three things. One, where are they sending their big dogs? Right now, the top dog would be President Donald Trump. Wherever he goes, generally, that's places that the party is worried about shoring up support.

So his daily rallies in deep red states, that's quite telling. Red state of the day is South Carolina. Trump campaigning there for Senator Darline Graham, who's in a tough contest against Democratic candidate Annie Andrews for Senate, despite the fact that Trump won South Carolina two years ago by 18 percentage points. The fact that the president's there today, not a sign of strength for the GOP or Senator Graham.

Number two thing that you should be looking for, where are the parties and donors? Where are they putting their money or where are they taking their money from? When Republicans took money out of North Carolina that was a bad sign for Republican Senate nominee Michael Whatley.

And when Republicans sent money to Kansas, that was a bad sign for GOP incumbent Senator Roger Marshall, especially considering the fact that a Democrat has not won a Senate seat in Kansas in 94 years. Democrats, by the same token, obviously still worried about the Michigan Senate race and the Maine Senate race, judging by where their money is going. And frankly, at this point in the campaign, Democrats should not have to be spending money in Michigan.

The third thing to keep an eye who's closing strong and who's acting desperate. Trump last night in North Carolina comes to mind when he discussed veterans who have brought claims related to the water contamination at Camp Lejeune.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And if we win the House and the Senate, I am directing the Department of Justice to settle all remaining legitimate claims as soon as possible. So if we don't win, there's no money. If we do win, you're getting it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The president continues to wheel and deal and wheel out what seem kind of like legal bribes in exchange for Republican votes. A $5,000 check here only if Republicans keep the House and Senate. Five hundred dollars there, $90 to seniors, pardons in Alaska.

But truly, the idea of desperation is today most exemplified by the Republican running for governor of Ohio, GOP nominee Vivek Ramaswamy. He is pushing an attack on his Democratic rival, Amy Acton, that at best can be described as risking a major political backlash. At worst, the Ramaswamy ad risks disgusting voters with how low Ramaswamy is willing to sink.

The video features Acton's estranged mother, who she hasn't seen since she was 12, and she urges voters to not support her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONNA ARTHUR, AMY ACTON'S MOTHER: It's not easy for a mother to say this, but Amy has a serious problem. She's lied her entire life. My daughter needs help, and she can't help you if she needs help herself.

[17:05:10]

Don't vote for people who lie. Don't let her become your governor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: At issue here is what, of course, she's accusing her daughter of lying about. And let's talk about that.

Acton has said she hasn't seen her mother since she was about 12 years old. That's when the man that her mother married was physically abusing and raping her, and that man was facing criminal charges. The Ohio Capital Journal wrote, quote, "Mahoning County court records, Mahoning county court records we obtained show that Cledith Arthur, that's Amy Acton's stepfather, was arrested and charged with sexually abusing Acton, then 12 years old. After pleading not guilty, he posted bond and fled, becoming a fugitive of the state until his death in 2004. Police tried to find him for numerous years, documents state.

He and Acton's mother moved to Pennsylvania, according to public records," unquote.

Now, after that ad was released, Acton's campaign released a statement from her brother, who was also in that house with the abusive stepfather. And the brother, Philip Stearns, said of their stepfather, quote, "After he was arrested and Amy and I -- Amy and I were removed from their custody, our birth mother stayed married to Amy's rapist until he died."

So by this account, which is backed by law enforcement records, Vivek Ramaswamy is using the endorsement of a woman who stood by a child rapist. Today, the acting for governor campaign released this video of her brother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL STEARNS, AMY ACTON'S BROTHER: I received a lot of abuse, but Amy always got the worst of it. She continued to receive that abuse because she knew she had to protect me from that and that if she hadn't done that, who knows where I would have ended up. And she's 11 and 12 years old. And to think that that's somehow a talking point, shame on Vivek. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, Amy Acton's campaign has also claimed that Amy and Philip's stepfather had previously been charged with incest before their mother married him. Now, when this ad posted yesterday, Ramaswamy's campaign initially did not confirm that it was involved in the ad as we told you yesterday. They said only that Ohioans deserve to know what Acton's mother says about her daughter. But eventually, Ramaswamy confirmed, quote, "It is an ad from our campaign," unquote.

So the Ramaswamy campaign is choosing to platform a woman estranged from Amy Acton, who sided with an accused and charged child rapist, a pedophile, over her own daughter, politicizing child rape and standing with the accused rapist, child rapist. A Republican elected official from Ohio who's on the ground in the Buckeye State told me this morning, quote, "This is all anybody is talking about. People are saying two things. One, Vivek does not represent my values. And two, the way that Amy Acton has responded to this has given her a stature that she didn't have before," unquote.

That's from a Republican elected official.

The ad has even drawn criticism from some Republicans. Former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley, who ran against Ramaswamy for president in 2024. Haley said it was the latest evidence that Ramaswamy is a bad guy. But there is one prominent Republican, an Ohioan, while he sees it quite differently.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've watched the Democrats throw every dirty trick in the political book at Vivek. And now the media and the Democrats in the state of Ohio are obsessed because guess what, Vivek Ramaswamy had the audacity to run a T.V. commercial which calls it out like it is and calls Amy Acton a liar. And my message, ladies and gentlemen, is very simple. Whether whatever you think about any of the T.V. advertisements, focus on the substance and focus on the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Calls it like it is. The wife of an accused child rapist accuses the child victim of lying, and that's calling it like it is. In response to what the vice president said, the former Ohio state House speaker, a Republican, tweeted, quote, "It is beyond ridiculous to defend a horrible ad and criticize people for whining. What happened to human decency? Stop normalizing bad behavior and embarrassing the party," unquote.

Just moments ago, President Trump said he didn't know anything about the abuse allegations at the center of the ad. But then he, of course, added this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I guess, you know, it was about a Republican, I could guarantee you they'd let it go. So that's why you're asking. The fact is, I know nothing about it, but I hear the mother went very rogue on the daughter. Doesn't have a lot of respect for the daughter. And I think the mother is a witness to things also.

[17:10:03]

So who knows? And you have to figure that out. It's a very unusual situation to have a mother hate a daughter that much. But I don't think that has anything to do with Vivek.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's Vivek's ad and seems to know quite a bit about the ad. So the president and the vice president are standing by this woman who stood by an alleged accused child rapist and calling the child who was raped, now a woman, Amy Acton, calling her a liar to win an election. That's why the video was released, using this woman who stood by an accused child rapist who fled town as a source, standing by that woman to win a campaign. So that's what I'm talking about when I say watch to see who's acting desperate.

Let's talk about this all with Congresswoman Nancy Mace, a Republican of South Carolina, a state that President Trump is headed to.

I'll get to the South Carolina race in a second, Congresswoman, but you're an outspoken woman, and I want to get your reaction to Ramaswamy's ad.

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Yes.

TAPPER: What do you think of it?

MACE: This ad is going to go down as the most shameful, disgusting, offensive ad this election season. I can't believe, and I'm a tried and true conservative, Jake, I know that sometimes the things I say are offensive to you and your audience, but this was the most offensive ad. The socialists and the communists that Republicans are running against, the bar is low. And somehow Vivek Ramaswamy somehow managed to limbo under the lowest bar of decency in this country to go after a woman who was allegedly raped by her stepfather and not just, like, accused, this guy was arrested and charged with child rape. And the idea that the vice president would go to the mattresses to defend this ad might have cost JD Vance the presidency.

I just -- when the Republican Party is bleeding women voters, when we are struggling with women voters, this is the ad that you're going to run in a midterm election when historically we lose everything? This is the ad you're going to run in a state that Trump won by double digits? I can't even -- I'm beside myself. I was a real big Vivek Ramaswamy fan. I think he's been very smart. But this was just deeply offensive.

And I just can't believe that this is what passes for decency in this election. I'm stunned. I'm shocked. I've gone and I filed so many bills to protect women and children. And I know why women don't come forward. I know the shame that they feel because I felt it as a survivor and I've worked with other survivors. This was incredibly -- this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. And I think it's going to take time for us to recover from this.

You pile on top of that, the Epstein stuff where Republicans were targeted that voted for the Epstein files. We are not the party of pedophilia like I am just -- I praise Nikki Haley for speaking out. I praise other Republicans for speaking out. This is not who we are.

TAPPER: You have been, I mean, just for the record for everybody watching, you have been very outspoken about trying to protect women --

MACE: Yes.

TAPPER: -- and children from these kinds of horrific acts.

MACE: Yes.

TAPPER: Ohio's Republican Senate candidate Jon Husted just told the Associated Press, quote, "I would not have run that ad," unquote. And a GOP operative, Telsino (ph) and at least one GOP candidate in Ohio personally asked Ramaswamy to stop airing the ad. Does this suggest to you that Ramaswamy's ad might not only back -- there might not -- there might not only be a backlash against him, but it might also hurt other Republicans running in this very challenging environment for Republicans?

MACE: Hundred percent. Down the ballot in Ohio, I think that's why you saw Husted speak out. He can't afford to lose female voters. I mean, they typically will vote more Democrat than they will Republican. It's a mess and I honestly am stunned that people are defending it because it's going to hurt in Ohio.

It's going to hurt down ballot. It's going to hurt people, I think across the country. I was in line yesterday, the first day for early voting in South Carolina in my home precinct and more than half the people in the line were women and they were definitely left leaning women. You could tell because some of them had the rainbow flag pen or stickers on their clothing. You get all that.

You see all that. This did not help the situation. I think it poured gasoline on the fire and is not what we need right now as a party. There's going to be a reckoning after this and it'll be well deserved.

TAPPER: Trying to think of like being a Republican woman in Congressman Max Miller's district and trying to figure out what to do that day. But let's turn to South Carolina because that's really what --

MACE: He's losing his seat. He 100 percent is losing. Yes, Max Miller is 100 percent losing that seat. I've seen polling on it. It's terrible.

We should have replaced him in the primary in Ohio to save that seat, and we did not.

TAPPER: Let's turn to South Carolina, which is why we booked you to begin with. Senator Darline Graham, she was appointed --

MACE: Yes.

TAPPER: -- to finish the term of her late brother, Lindsey Graham, appears to be in a tough race against Democratic candidate Annie Andrews. Now, I don't need to tell you, Trump won South Carolina two years ago by 18 points. Do you think it's really competitive? And if so, why?

[17:15:11]

MACE: I do. The polls that I'm seeing down here has Darline Graham within the margin of error. Now, I think Republicans are getting wiped out this midterm. I don't think it's going to be as bad as leftist and Democrat pundits and pollsters are saying. If we're -- if Democrats were head by 10, I think it's really five in polling.

MAGA is going to show up on Election Day for her. Annie Andrews is going to lose to Darline Graham, but it'll be a much closer race than it ever needed to be.

Darline Graham isn't raising any money. She's raised no money. And then you have Annie Andrews who's well-funded, she's well spoken, she's pretty, she's younger, she will make a difference. And I'm more concerned less about Darline Graham's race because I do believe Darline is going to win, but she's going to win on the coattails of Trump. He's having the rally in South Carolina because he needs MAGA to turn out on Election Day for her.

And some of MAGA are very upset that Darline is the nominee because they wanted to pick someone who wasn't a member of the family. They didn't want nepotism. But I'm more concerned about down ballot races. I'm worried about my congressional race that could go to a -- to an admiral in the Navy, Nancy Lacore, over Jenny Honeycutt. I think that other races down ballot could be tighter than they need to be and we could lose some Republican seats in the statehouse potentially or even my seat, the first Congressional District if it gets too close.

TAPPER: The first Congressional District, one of the only competitive districts, if not the only competitive district in South Carolina.

MACE: The only one.

TAPPER: Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina, I know you're retiring, but we're going to have you back before you leave us here in Washington, D.C. and I want to hear about your plans. So we'll talk about that next time.

MACE: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Thanks so much for being with us today. I appreciate it.

MACE: Yes. Thanks, Jake. TAPPER: CNN just spoke to Amy Acton at a campaign event in Ohio. Hear what she told our Lauren Fox about all of this ahead. Plus, a 74 year old retired teacher is on his way back to the United States tonight after spending the last four years imprisoned in Russia. What we're learning about the Trump administration and Putin negotiations that ultimately got him free. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:21:00]

TAPPER: We're back with our top story, the fallout over the highly controversial, some would say downright indecent ad in the race for Ohio governor from Vivek Ramaswamy running it against Amy Acton. CNN's Lauren Fox just spoke to the Democratic gubernatorial candidate Amy Acton at an event in Wharton, Ohio.

Lauren, what did she have to say?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, she essentially talked at length about this ad and was very forthcoming about the fact that she hopes the story of her childhood, some of the abuse that she suffered, will actually be inspiring to people here in Ohio. That she has already been hearing from a lot of voters that they are appalled by this ad, that she believes that this is going to backfire for the Ramaswamy campaign. Here's what else she told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY ACTON, (D) OHIO GOV. CANDIDATE: I'm not stunned in the era we live in. And that said, you know, what has also been remarkable to see, Lauren, is how many people are outraged by this because so many people have experienced some sort of trauma or abuse in their lives. And so I'm much more focused on a message that reaches them than on the antics of an out of touch billionaire who would be a danger to my state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And Acton was here in Ohio for this event of a farm tour, essentially. She was talking about ag prices, commodity prices. She was talking about what was affecting people in this local community. Obviously, she did not expect probably last weekend that when this event was scheduled, she was going to be talking about the abuse from her childhood. But it did come up about three quarters of the way through.

A very small group was questioning her, asking her advice on different programs in the state. And one woman who hadn't spoken yet she called on and said, is there anything you want to say? You know, thinking she might want to talk about, you know, libraries or hospitals in the area that other people had asked about. And instead this woman said, I just want to give you a hug, and essentially stood up, gave her a hug. And at that point, Acton said, I think it's probably time we address the elephant in the room. And she talked at length about the ad, about her childhood, about some of the memories that she had at that time, and really talked about the fact that there were a lot of people who stepped up and helped her and her brother at that time. And that's something that she's carrying with her and it's something that she hopes is going to motivate and inspire people in this stage.

She said, you know, she's not ashamed to talk about it. She's talked about it in the past, but obviously, Jake, now she is certainly feeling like it is something that is part of her story and she says she is not going to shy away from it. In fact, she argued she just really felt like the Ramaswamy campaign was taking advantage of her mother, someone who she said was not well. Jake.

TAPPER: Lauren Fox in Wharton, Ohio, thanks so much.

[17:23:54]

Much more of our midterms coverage in moments. From key races in Texas to Michigan to South Carolina and more, we're covering all of the election angles with just 13 days to go.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead, just two weeks before the midterms, a group calling itself Wedgewood Polling, cited by numerous high profile news outlets including the New York Times, just admitted to having made up its data. In a statement, the so called polling company says it was all just an experiment just to prove the polling industry needs major reforms. Writing quote, "Wedgewood Polling was never intended to sway an election or permanently mislead the public. It was designed as a wake up call," unquote.

Now the timing of the group disclosure seems significant because a different news outlet says they were about to blow the whistle on them. Either way, the decision to prove a point, if that's what they were doing, was not victimless.

Democratic Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow, for example, one of the candidates featured in those fake polls ended up suspending her campaign for Michigan's U.S. Senate seat in July. And she now says that the bogus poll hurt her campaign.

Here now is State Senator Mallory McMorrow. Thank you so much for joining us, Senator.

So one of Wedgewood's fake polls showed you during the Democratic primary for Senate, showed you in a distant third place with just single digit support behind Abdul El-Sayed and Congresswoman Haley Stevens. That same poll showed that you of the three were the only candidate that would be unable to beat Republican candidate Mike Rogers in a hypothetical matchup. How did that poll impact your campaign? And we should note, of course it was a bullshit poll. It was -- it was fake, it was invented.

How did it impact your campaign? MALLORY MCMORROW, (D) MICHIGAN STATE SENATE: Yes, first, to be very clear, I mean this was a long race. I was in third at this time. I had been in the lead back in April. But there's a difference between a 10 point gap and a gap that showed me basically in the toilet. And the impact that this had, I'm not sure that it would have change the outcome of the race ultimately, but donations dried up.

[17:30:04]

I can tell you that our volunteers were apoplectic. They were asking for what they could do, what they could say to people as they were out in the field and talking to potential supporters and just the morale boost. This was a one, two punch. There had been another poll that hit just a few days earlier, also showing me in single digits. That also turned out to be bunk.

It was an open survey monkey link that a pollster had sent around that anybody could take multiple times. They could send it to their friends. And their methodology was so suspect that the outlet who commissioned it ultimately decided not to run it. So it really hurt us. But I think the bigger issue here is we got to clean up elections and transparency.

We need campaign finance reform. People need to be able to trust the information that's out there and media needs to vet these sources and stop always just looking for the horse race and the most salacious story because a lot of times in this case it wasn't true. So as we head into the final two weeks of the campaign, my message to everybody is, do not trust polls.

TAPPER: Yes.

MCMORROW: Get out there and talk to your family members and make sure everybody votes.

TAPPER: Yes. And I just have to say, so CNN has a very exacting process where there we only allow certain polls that our polling unit goes through and make sure that the methodology is firm and that it's a real, actual polling, legitimate organization doing it in a legitimate way. But a lot of people don't know that. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of media illiteracy in the world, including among people in the media who just say, oh, Wedgewood Polling, new pollster, great, and they just run with it. Take a listen to what Mike Nellis, he's a former adviser to Kamala Harris, told Fox News about the fake polling firm.

He said, quote, "These people are absolute scumbags. They lied about their polling data, got caught and are freaking out because they've committed fraud. If they can be, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law," unquote. Do you agree with that?

MCMORROW: We got to clean it up. Whether it is via legislation, whether it is what Mike suggested. But I very candidly, I hope Democrats have a great night in a couple of weeks. And then there's got to be a big bold agenda on making sure we restore trust. We got to go after scam PACs that send out endless fundraising texts, many times using candidates' names without their permission.

We got to go after these pollsters and reckon with the fact that an increasing number of people are getting their news not from places like CNN but from social media. So what do we do when the fact that these things hit, catch like wildfire, are spread all over the place and then are legitimized when legitimate media outlets run them in their -- in their polling averages? So there's a lot of work to do, but we won't get out of this mess until we clean it up.

TAPPER: State Senator Mallory McMorrow, Democrat of Michigan, thank you so much. Always good to have you on.

MCMORROW: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: A 74-year-old retired teacher is on his way home tonight, freed after being wrongfully detained in Russia for four years. We're going to ask the attorney for Stephen Hubbard about the Trump-Putin negotiations that led to his release next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:37:27]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, quote, "WTF, Steve? And no, Putin is a stone cold killer." Those are the immediate reactions from Republican Senators to U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff calling ruthless Russian dictator Vladimir Putin a, quote, "a humanitarian" earlier today in Russia. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: You talk so much about my president, President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are a humanitarian also, sir, and I salute that. I commend you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Witkoff there commending the former KGB officer accused of war crimes in the war against Ukraine. Vice President J.D. Vance asked about that moment, said that Witkoff was just being a diplomat and trying to get the job done. Specifically the job of securing the release of a detainee, 74-year-old American Stephen Hubbard.

Hubbard was imprisoned in Russia for more than four years, charged by Russia with fighting as a mercenary for Ukraine, charges that Hubbard denies.

Hubbard's release comes as Russia says it's willing to restart bilateral talks with the U.S. and Ukraine after November 10th to end the war.

Joining us now to discuss Stephen Hubbard's attorney, Martin De Luca.

First of all, Mr. De Luca, Stephen's supposed to land soon. What have you heard about how he's doing? We had heard that he was ailing. MARTIN DE LUCA, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING STEPHEN HUBBARD: Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me, Jake. Yes, he's doing OK. We managed to speak to him right before they took off from Russia. He's excited to see his family tonight when he lands in the United States.

And he's in fragile health, but in good health and in good spirits. Of course, assessing -- you know, somebody's been detained for four and a half years in a penal colony and a POW camp, it's going to take a little while to do a full health assessment to make sure that everything's OK. But he was able to walk on the plane and you saw the picture, he's doing OK.

TAPPER: President Trump says that the release came as a big surprise to Hubbard and his family and that he, the president, didn't give Putin anything in return. Take a listen to what The President told CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House just in the last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You said you didn't give Russia anything in exchange for his release.

TRUMP: If I would have done that, you would not have Mr. Hubbard coming back.

COLLINS: So you did give him something in exchange for the release?

TRUMP: Right now, right now, and you don't know anything. I mean, you're fake news CNN. Look, right now you have a man that's beautifully flying from Russia to wherever he's landing in the United States that I got out because I had a very good and very fast negotiation with President Putin. If you were to put those sanctions on, or whatever you want to call them, you could forget about him. You'd never see him again.

[17:40:16]

He'd be back in jail for 25 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Kaitlan's argument is that he did get something, Putin. He got the release from some sanctions that the president waived, but you don't have to comment on that. Did this news come as a surprise to you and the Hubbard family, and do you know anything about what they talked about in order for President Trump to secure Stephen Hubbard's freedom?

DE LUCA: Yes. So the news came as a surprise to the family. Obviously, we have been involved in the efforts to release him for a while. And so it became clear, you know, some time ago, certainly in the last week or so, that there would be -- there was positive movement towards a release.

Now, as to the question of whether something was exchanged for it, we know of absolutely nothing that would indicate this was anything but a unilateral release. And it's not the only unilateral release, Jake. You know, we -- you and I met last year when Marc Fogel had been released. And what was unique about that time was that Fogel was released and the Russians had released -- sorry, and our side had released Alexander Vinnik about 24 hours later. Since then, there's been three unilateral releases.

And those three unilateral releases, the latest one before Stephen Hubbard being Robert Gilman 10 weeks ago. Those three unilateral releases are the first time in U.S.-Russia relations that unilateral releases happen from the Russian side that we are aware of. And that's because the Russians have traditionally always negotiated swaps. I know of nothing that would indicate they moved away from that position in terms of how they structure negotiations. They do not -- you know, if you ask them about sanctions, they tell you, oh, we don't care about the sanctions.

Put more. We're indifferent about that, right? So it doesn't do them any favors domestically.

The reason why I think this happened is because engagement matters. Right. And if you are talking and you are repairing a relationship and you're reengaging in a way that there can be some hope or expectation that the future can be better than the present, then it is easier to come around decisions like this.

Gilman, 10 weeks ago was also a unilateral release, and Hubbard was a unilateral release. And really, there's nothing more to the story other than what do they get in return? That there is a hope and an expectation that the relationship will start to be repaired and will start to improve over time. Frankly, nothing has happened, right? People focus on the Graham Bill and President Trump suspending that for, what, 60 days.

But the reality is Russia today, under the Trump administration, three years in, remains one of the most sanctioned countries in the world. That's --

TAPPER: Right.

DE LUCA: -- just the fact, right? So, nothing was exchanged here. And it's a shame that people, I think, are focusing on that instead of focusing on the fact that, you know, we have a third American coming home that's unilaterally.

TAPPER: Yes, it's great. It's wonderful. And Martin De Luca, come back and bring Stephen Hubbard once he's had some time to recover and rest up. Bring him back with you and we'll talk about it all. Really appreciate your time today, sir.

DE LUCA: Thank you.

TAPPER: Several other Americans remain imprisoned in Russia. One of them is 35-year-old Olga Jezler. She's a permanent U.S. resident who was arrested for drug trafficking and sentenced to 10 years in prison in 2022. She was carrying CBD oil into Russia, which is legal there.

Joining us now, Harold Jezler, Olga's husband. And also with us, former Russian prisoner and U.S. Marine Paul Whelan.

Harold, how are you feeling today hearing the news of Stephen Hubbard's release? Does it make you despondent? Does it make you hopeful? How are you?

HAROLD JEZLER, WIFE, OLGA JEZLER, IMPRISONED IN RUSSIA: Jake, thank you so much for having me back on and for being such a strong advocate for Olga. It really means a lot to me.

Yes, it was, you know, obviously very mixed emotions waking up this morning to the news. Of course, we're very happy for Mr. Hubbard and his family and very grateful to President Trump and President Putin for agreeing to this release. At the same time, you know, this is now the fourth time that Olga has been left behind and, you know, it definitely leaves a, you know, a sour taste in my mouth. She's been there for 1,577 days now.

TAPPER: Paul, President Trump posted on social media this morning, quote, "Numerous people who requested that sanctions be immediately imposed on Russia have called to apologize to President Trump in that they didn't know that he was negotiating the release of Stephen Hubbard, a truly big and important deal for the U.S. If sanctions would have been placed, certainly those negotiations would have come to a complete and total halt," unquote.

So how do you see this, Trump -- do you see this as Trump cozying up to Putin and dropping sanctions? Witkoff calling him a humanitarian? Is it worth it for Stephen (inaudible)?

[17:45:07]

PAUL WHELAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): Well, let's be clear, Putin is not a humanitarian or he wouldn't be holding any of our citizens' hostage. That's ridiculous to even call him a humanitarian. Relaxing sanctions, doing anything that benefits Putin and Russia right now is a mistake. We should be tightening the screws on Putin, tightening the screws on Russia and making them give our citizens back. It's ridiculous that they're there.

This whole diesel fuel for money that's being used against the Ukrainians, it's another example of weakness instead of strong leadership. We need sanctions on Russia. We need to do more, and we need to pressure them to get our people back.

TAPPER: Do you think the way that President Trump is handling this, and you just heard the attorney for Mr. Hubbard saying basically that having a more engaged relationship helps get these detainees home, do you think that this is ultimately helpful, or do you think it ultimately, in some ways, encourages Putin to take more prisoners?

That's for you, Paul. I'm sorry.

WHELAN: The issue that we have is not a diplomatic -- yes, the issue we have is not a diplomatic issue. The FSB and the CIA are working out these trades. If you listen to what the Russians are saying, if you see how the Russians are behaving, it's not diplomat to diplomat. This is not what it appears on the -- on the surface. It's the FSB and the CIA working out these trades, just like during the Cold War.

That is what the Russians are up to. Anything less in people's minds is a mistake. So, you know, we send an envoy over. I don't know what he's doing, but we still have Andre Khachaturian. We have Chuck Zimmerman, a Navy veteran.

They're still there. Why aren't they coming home, too?

TAPPER: And, Harold, you told me in May that you were able to talk to Olga about once a week, but everything was starting to wear down on her. How's she doing now? When's the last time you talked to her?

JEZLER: So the calls have been cut down to about once every two weeks or so. She's staying strong, but, you know, as you know, her medical condition is deteriorating and, you know, it's tough mentally, emotionally. It's been four and a half years now.

TAPPER: It's awful. Paul Whelan and Harold Jezler, and, Harold, thank you so much. We're going to continue to cover Olga's case. We're not going to stop until you and Olga are with me in my studio talking about everything, and she is free. So thanks for joining us. And Paul, as always, thank you for your advocacy.

WHELAN: Thank you, Jay.

JEZLER: Thank you so much.

WHELAN: Appreciate it.

TAPPER: West Virginia's governor just declared a state of emergency in his state over near record diesel prices. How he is trying to lower prices for drivers. He's going to join me next.

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[17:52:00]

TAPPER: In our Money Lead as gas prices continue to soar, with only 13 days until the midterm Election Day, truckers and farmers are especially feeling the squeeze. AAA says diesel has ballooned to $6.32 a gallon. And now several states are easing up on red dyed diesel. That's standard diesel, dyed red to show that it's exempt from highway fuel taxes. It's normally reserved for off-road farm and construction equipment.

West Virginia is the latest state to allow it for normal highway use. The state's governor, Patrick Morrisey, joins us now.

Governor, thanks so much for joining us. So West Virginia Democrats, as you might expect, are disputing this. They're calling it a political stunt over meaningful relief, arguing that red dye diesel isn't widely available. How much relief do you think this will actually be able to provide and how so?

GOV. PATRICK MORRISEY (R-WV): A couple things. First, we try to use the tools that we have available to make life more affordable for West Virginians. And so when there's an opportunity to not have enforcement of rules relating to red dye, we know that it will have a very positive impact. Will it solve every problem with affordability? No.

But it makes a difference in the following ways, Jake. One, we have a lot of truckers that go through our state. We deal with forestry, we deal with agriculture, we deal with coal, we deal with gas. And a lot of these trucks rely on diesel to transport these equipment through or ultimately sources that will be used, ultimately converted into goods and services. So when you can reduce effectively the price of diesel 20.5 cents per gallon because they're using red-dye, that could mean $41 on a lot of gas that a lot of diesel that's being used by the trucks.

It makes a big difference. We have the tools to do this via an executive order now. It is going to provide relief. Once again, it's not everything, but we have to keep looking and fighting for every way to make life more affordable. And this is just one other way that I'm trying to do that.

I had a tax cut earlier in this year to put hundreds, if not thousands of dollars back into people's pocket. I want to keep putting more and more in. And -- but I'm going to do it by also looking out for our road fund as well. That's critical to do because we have a lot of --

TAPPER: Yes.

MORRISEY: -- bridges and roads in our state that need to continue to have the resources from some of those taxes going through.

TAPPER: So West Virginia House Democrats say that they -- they're pushing for a special legislative session, and they have been since April. They want to temporarily suspend the state gasoline tax --

MORRISEY: Yes.

TAPPER: -- which is 35.7 cents a gallon. Is that another tool? Is that another feasible way to keep money in the pockets of West Virginians? And if not, why not?

MORRISEY: Yes, so I've always been open to it. I'm looking at that. But I will be honest with you, every month that you suspend that, it's about $40 million. And so a lot of folks want to do that from April. The fact is, we're a small state and all that money comes out of the state road fund.

[17:55:02]

And I know that we need to make sure that our bridges which when I took office, we're getting an F worst in the country, I have to have safe bridges. We have to make sure that we're paving the roads and good on secondary roads. So I want to badly provide even more relief, but I also have to do it in a way that protects the integrity of the road fund. And that's been the tension, quite frankly. So I'm very open.

We'll keep looking at this. I can't do that by myself. That would require a special session. The diesel relief I could do through an executive order. That's why I didn't hesitate to act.

TAPPER: Quickly if we could. I want to turn to the roundtable that President Trump --

MORRISEY: Yes.

TAPPER: -- hosted today focused on protecting seniors and children from -- children from cybercrime. West Virginia, part of the landmark $16.7 billion settlement with Meta over allegations that Facebook and Instagram harm children. How much of that money has West Virginia received so far? How do you plan to use the money?

MORRISEY: Well, the settlement structured over a 10-year period and we know that it could lead to over $110 million coming in based upon certain factors. But here's what I'm looking to do in the next legislative session, I'm going to ask our legislature to take a portion of that money to help West Virginia unplug. West Virginia is widely regarded as one of the most beautiful states in America. I want to make sure that people are not engaging in the zombie focus on their Internet all the time on their devices. And one of the ways you can do that is you can get people out to the great outdoors.

You can equip them with kayaks, with bikes, you can let people go to state parks. So I want to take a portion of those dollars and actually help ensure that kids are doing things that are healthier for them and that are more athletic for them as opposed to just doom scrolling all day on their devices.

So that's one idea of many of how we're trying to use those resources. But I will say this. At the forum earlier, I thought it was very important for the focus to be on what's going on, to take on this new cyber threat. Seniors are vulnerable in West Virginia. We have about 22 and a half percent of our population age 65 plus.

TAPPER: Right.

MORRISEY: We have to make sure we're educating people about all the scams out there and look out for the most vulnerable.

TAPPER: West Virginia Governor Patrick Morrisey, a Republican, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it, sir.

MORRISEY: Hey, thanks so much.

TAPPER: President Trump's about to hold a campaign rally in South Carolina. Will his message sway voters? Will it rally his faithful to the polls? Going to ask the South Carolina kingmaker, Congressman Jim Clyburn next.

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