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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Sources Say, At Least 16 Dead In Two Mass Shootings, Suspect At Large; CNN Continues Its Breaking News Coverage On The Manhunt For Maine Mass Shooter. 10-11p ET

Aired October 25, 2023 - 22:00   ET



ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: I'm Abby Phillip. And we begin tonight with the breaking news out of Maine. Sources tell CNN that at least 16 people have been killed, dozens more are believed to be injured, after two mass shootings in two separate locations in Lewistown.


That's about 35 miles north of Portland and an urgent manhunt is underway right now. The suspect is not in custody. You see here, these are the pictures that were just released of this suspect, armed at one of those businesses. And we are told a restaurant and a bowling alley are the two locations where these incidents occurred.

Police are now urging all businesses to lock down or close right now with the suspect at large. They're also urging people to remain in their homes.

Let's start right away with CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller. John, this is very much an ongoing active situation, it appears. What is the latest that you're hearing from your sources about what is happening with the manhunt, with the suspect potentially still at large?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, they've got a picture. They've crowdsourced that picture. People have called in with tips. We don't know of any of those tips right now or the right tip. They also have a picture of a car, so they have another lead. Now, they don't seem to have that car because the instructions they give are if anyone sees this car.

When you look at that photo of the car, and maybe we can bring it up while we're talking, it seems to be stopped with the headlights on, the engine running, the door open. So, there's some good possibility that this is captured from a surveillance video where he rolled up in the car, left the door open, ran in, opened fire, ran back out, got in the car. They don't give a license plate on the car, but it's not visible from the shot. And they say it may have a black bumper in the rear, which suggests they don't have that car in custody. If they did, they would at least know who the registered owner is.

So, really, what they're relying on now is a couple of competing interests. One is they're telling everybody, stay inside, don't go outside. But if you are outside and you see the individual in this picture or you see this car, call us immediately.

PHILLIP: Yes. And, Athena, these incidents seem to have occurred at two places where there could have been quite a lot of people. Can you tell us more about these locations where this occurred?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure. The first -- if you listen to Scanner Traffic, the first calls were coming in just after 7:00 P.M. at the bowling alley. That's the spare time recreation center where you can imagine people would have been there bowling, playing other games, gathering on a night like this.

And then the second location that was reported is a bar, a bar and grill that's only about ten minutes away from that bowling alley. So, there's no lot of talk about -- you know, we now know the suspect's car that the police are looking for. Certainly, ten minutes away, it's relatively nearby.

There was also a third location that a local newspaper reported, the Sun Journal, talking about a Walmart distribution center, where there may have been additional shootings, and that is only about three minutes away from the bar.

So, clearly a very small area, and we're talking about not a huge population. Lewiston is only about 40 miles north of Portland. It's only has about 36,000 people. Authorities have called on the folks in Lewiston as well as Auburn, which is about two miles away, so a neighboring town to shelter in place as they look for this suspect in this mass casualty event, and, again, at least the third mass shooting this month.

PHILLIP: And, John, as Athena points out, this is a small community. Maine is not a very densely populated state to begin with. From what I have gathered, Lewiston only has about 79 sworn officers in that police department. If you are looking at a situation in which you have a shooting suspect at large with some kind of long gun rifle, they don't know it seems where he is. What does that look like for a small --

MILLER: It looks like they're going to need a lot of help, but they have it almost immediately after they understood the breath of the situation. The Maine State Police began sending all of their resources, their helicopters, their available units, their investigators, their crime scene people, as well as the county sheriff, all of their resources, as well as the other towns that have their own police department.

So, you have a unified command system under the incident command system where somebody is the incident commander, someone is in charge of crime scene, someone is in charge of the hunt for this suspect, someone is in charge of interviewing witnesses and gathering that intelligence and feeding it out.

This should be by now a couple of hours, three hours into this, a well-oiled machine where that's working. But it's all because of the mutual aid package that's been delivered. FBI is en route, ATF is en route. ATF will be running those shell casings through the NIBIN system, the National Integrated Ballistic Network, to see do they match any other shootings, do they match anything else that has a record of who owns that gun. They'll be looking at that car and then going back through traffic cameras and videos saying, do we have a shot of that car, that same in car, where we can get a plate and bring that to a name.


So, a lot of wheels are turning that go beyond the local police department who may be actually in charge of the operation. The state police may take it over. It's too early to say. But all the resources are there.

I want to go now to CNN Security Correspondent Josh Campbell. Josh, they are telling people in that area to stay at home, to lock their doors. What is happening right now on the ground in terms of how police are canvassing that area, both for information and also for the suspect?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Using all those resources that John just mentioned, you have this manhunt that's currently underway. They obviously don't want innocent people out and about, A, in the way of law enforcement. But it appears if you just look at the locations where the suspect opened fire, these were both places where crowds would gather. You have a bar and you have a bowling alley.

And so they certainly don't want any type of group that is congregating to continue doing so. If you are, they're asking for people to shelter in place, again, to not provide an additional possible point of fire for the suspect.

But there's a lot of work going on behind the scenes right now that's being fed into those officers that are actually out there on the street that are looking. You know, after these incidents, authorities will go back and look for security camera footage around the incident. Again, they're trying to establish a pattern of travel of this individual, you know, going to businesses, if they're open at this hour, going into residences to figure out, you know, if you have a Ring doorbell camera, do they see this vehicle on that camera or the likeness of the suspect moving in a potential direction. That is a lot of work that happens behind the scenes.

Of course, Abby, this is all happening while they're still in a tactical state. They don't know where this individual is. So, the very notion of approaching a particular place, they have to be on guard because they don't know if that individual could have secreted himself somewhere around that incident.

One thing is clear, this person certainly had the intention to cause indiscriminate mass killing. You just look at the number of victims at these incidents. And so, certainly, they have a lot of work ahead of them.

Beyond that, you have these other resources that are being brought to bear. John mentioned the ATF, for example. Every crime scene where you have a gun that is fired, that high-powered assault-style rifle that we saw in that photo will eject a shell casing that they then can use to analyze to figure out if they can find the identity of the gun owner.

Now, having that vehicle, if that vehicle is indeed registered to that individual, that obviously accelerates identification. And then the last part is the public itself, trying to crowdsource, getting that image out there that we've been showing, for two reasons. First, if someone in and around that immediate area sees this individual, they certainly want you to call police. But, second, if you know this person, we've seen both the front vantage point of that individual, they also put out the side profile shot, every detail down to the facial hair is potentially important. Because if you know this person that has a beard like this individual, or this appears to be someone that you know or someone that you see, that is important for both a public safety standpoint and also an investigative standpoint.

And then, lastly, just to state the obvious, but this is certainly on the minds of officers that are out there. This is happening at nighttime, under the cover of darkness, making the work of law enforcement that much more difficult as they fan out trying to find this mass shooter, Abby.

PHILLIP: That's right, Josh. It's just after 10:00 on the East Coast. And I just want to remind folks, if you're just tuning in, we're following what is a mass casualty incident in Lewiston, Maine, where some 16 people are believed to be dead in two potential locations, also dozens injured, 50 to 60, according to our sources.

John, I want to come back to you on something that Josh Campbell was just talking about. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is now responding to this incident. What does that mean for how this investigation goes forward?

MILLER: It means that they're going to bring resources when it comes to firearms, the ability to trace ballistics, the ability to match ballistics. They're an unparalleled agency in that regard. And if the gun can be connected to another shooting, if there is something that can bring them to who that gun belonged to, ATF is pretty well positioned to do that.

One of the things, we talk about these locations, right? It's a bar. It's a bowling alley. Talking to Katie Schweit, a former FBI agent, and literally the agent who was in on the behavioral science study of active shooters, but also wrote the book, How to End Mass Shootings in America, she reminds me that most active shooters, not all of them, but the vast majority, when they choose a location, it's a place they know, a bowling alley they've been to that was familiar to them, a bar that they used to go to, a school that they attended.

You know, when you think of the two frequent active shooters and you think of what was the connection to that place, you'll remember the case in California where he went to the dance hall where he used to dance with his wife and opened fire on the crowd.


That suggests, at least statistically, the likelihood that the individual is local, the likelihood that, as you pointed out, it's not a sprawling metropolis. The quality of the pictures is good. The people who might know that face but also know a guy with that car, the ability to put that together, it seems like the kind of environment where you should be able to get that call from the crowd sourcing tonight and have a name to work with.

PHILLIP: And I want to bring in now CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst Charles Ramsey.

Mr. Ramsey, this is one of those incidents where, yet again, we have a mass shooter. But what makes this one a little bit different is that this is a relatively small town. Only about 40,000 people live in Lewiston. How does that change how this investigation goes forward? And if we're looking at trying to find a suspect, we're now several hours after when this incident reportedly began. And we do not believe, as of right now, that he is in custody. How much more difficult does this get in a less sparsely populated area?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, first of all, it is a small community, and I think as John Miller mentioned earlier, they're going to have an awful lot of help between the state police and federal resources that are there. They'll be using the incident command. So, they'll have all the resources they need to make up for the fact that they just don't have it internally like you would in New York or Chicago or what have you.

The more time that passes -- obviously, he's mobile. The key is to see whether or not they've got a license tag on that vehicle. The photographs are good enough that if you know this person, you can identify him and you could give a name.

That might be what's going on right now is that they may have an I.D., they may have an idea of who this individual is, and they're trying to track them down. But the person is mobile and they could be anywhere now. They could be out of the area.

This looks like it's something that was planned to me. You asked earlier what makes it unusual. I mean, there's more than one location, possibly three locations. I mean, I don't know if we've confirmed the third location or not, but --

PHILLIP: We have not confirmed a third location, but to your point, sometimes in the early stages of these incidents, it's not entirely clear what kind of situation we're dealing with here, but at least two of them have been confirmed.

Chief Ramsey, if you want to continue the point that you were making.

RAMSEY: Well, the other point I was going to make is I want to go back to something that John had said earlier that I think is very important. I mean, right now, we're hearing is possibly 16 fatalities, 50 or 60 people that could be injured. Not all could be gunshot wounds. People panic. You get a stampede. You're going to have people getting injured that way as well.

But the type of weapon that that person has that they're using, the wounds are absolutely devastating on the human body. And it's unfortunate, but many people just simply bleed out from their wounds, even if they're not struck initially in a vital organ.

The damage done to the body is such that a person can very easily bleed out if not given immediate medical attention. And so the fact that they were, you know, medevacing people out, I don't know what the surge capacity is for that particular hospital, maybe not all that much. Again, we're talking about a small town, but the longer it takes people to get into a trauma center, the more likely it is that, you know, their lives are seriously at risk.

PHILLIP: And that's an important point. We've been discussing that, unfortunately, all too many times.

I want to just explain what you're seeing on the screen here. These are live pictures tonight outside of the scene of one of the places where this incident unfolded, the restaurant, Shemengees, which is a bar and grill restaurant, according to their website. This is a live picture of the police response that still remains there outside of this restaurant.

I want everyone to just stand by for us for a few minutes. We are awaiting right now this first news conference on these shootings and the ongoing manhunt in this tragic, tragic night in the state of Maine.

We'll be right back.



PHILLIP: More now on our breaking news. At least 16 people have been killed tonight in Maine. Dozens more are injured after two mass shootings in Lewiston. One was at a restaurant and another was at a bowling alley.

I want to go straight now to an official in the town, Lewiston City Councilor Robert McCarthy. Mr. McCarthy, thank you for joining us.

First of all, what is the latest that you are hearing about the status of the suspect and the people who might be injured or dead in this incident?

ROBERT MCCARTHY, LEWISTON CITY COUNCILOR: My understanding that they've got a tentative identification of the shooter at the bowling alley, confirmed 22 dead, many, many more injured. They've set up the National Guard Center as a triage center. The two hospitals have called in every off-duty staff member that they could to deal with this.

We are a town of about 39,000. Our hospitals are not geared to handle this kind of shooting event and they're doing the best we can. We are blessed with one of the best police departments in the state and I'm sure they're doing everything possible to find this shooter and resolve this situation.

PHILLIP: And, sir, I heard you say 22 dead. We last reported 16. I just want to ask, is that coming from the police or from other law enforcement that it is now 22 dead?


MCCARTHY: That was confirmed by the city administrator.

PHILLIP: And do you have a sense of how many are injured?

MCCARTHY: The reports online of 50 or 60 people injured.

PHILLIP: So, when it comes to how your hospitals are doing right now, are they able to even take in all of these patients? Have you had to send them elsewhere for treatment?

MCCARTHY: I'm not sure about that. All I know is I know they set up a triage center at the National Guard location to handle those that are not as critically injured. Life Flight, they've called in the helicopter, the other Life Flight helicopters from Bangor to fly out injured to other hospitals around the state. And there's a large police presence at the hospitals, just in case. They've called in rescue vehicles from as far as 60, 70 miles away. It's quite a thing to go through.

PHILLIP: Yes. first of all, I just want to also say I'm so very sorry. This is a small town. I know that you probably know people who are affected by all of this.

You know, in that vein, do you know anything more about who some of these victims are or might be? Were they patrons of these businesses? Were they believed to have all been people who were inside?

MCCARTHY: Yes, they were believed to be inside. In fact, someone told me that there was a children's bowling event going on at the Bowling Alley, which is extremely tragic if that's the case. It's so surreal. You see it on the news and you say that's never going to happen here, and then it happens here and it just blows your mind.

PHILLIP: Again, I'm so very sorry for what is happening in your community.

MCCARTHY: I do want to take a second. I do want to take a second, and our hearts and our prayers go out to everybody involved. And we're thinking of you and the city is going to do whatever it takes to help anyone involved.

And also I like -- also I wanted to say is that my house is located a half a mile from where this happened. And so it was a real scary event. I live on a dead end street with woods behind me. We locked all the doors. We grabbed the guns and we're just waiting to hear that they catch the individual or individuals that did this. PHILLIP: Can you tell us a little bit more about the area where these two businesses are? You just said it's very close to your house. Give us a sense of what's there, what's around there, what does it look like?

MCCARTHY: The bowling alley is located -- it's on the more of the outskirts of the city. It's in a business park. So, most of the area was closed. There were two open restaurants that are right next door. A lot of patrons from the bowling alley ran there for safe haven and locked down. Thank God no one there was attacked.

The other bar that was attacked is way across town. It's probably three or four miles away. Again, it's on the outskirts on the other end of the city. And there's also reports that nearby Schmengees, where the other bar, that the Walmart distribution center was also, the doors were shot out at the Walmart distribution center.

PHILLIP: And, Mr. McCarthy, you were talking about the process of trying to identify a suspect. Do you have any more information from what you've been told by other officials about what kinds of clues they are following as they try to find this suspect?

MCCARTHY: They have a picture of his vehicle they believe he was in. It has some unique characteristics as far as it's a white or silver Subaru. There's a picture of it right there. The front bumper is black. I'm told they have the plate number. So, the individual, they're looking for him hard.

PHILLIP: Again, Robert McCarthy, thank you so much for joining us. We are so very sorry for what is unfolding tonight. We hope that you and everyone close to you continues to stay safe tonight and we will be in touch as this unfolds. Thank you for joining us.

MCCARTHY: Thank you very much. Take care.

PHILLIP: I want to come back in the studio to John Miller to just unpack what we just heard there from the city councilor.

These are two locations that are not that close to one another.


They seem to be quite different. It doesn't seem like this could have been accidental that these were two locations that just, as far apart as they were, happened to be the sites of these shootings.

MILLER: I mean, statistically, it's probably not random. Typically, in our active shooter scenarios, they usually go to places familiar to them. These are places that people would frequent, you know, a bowling alley. If you're a bowler, you know, you're going to be there more than once. A bar, most people have a regular bar that they like to go to.

I think that may be helpful in this case in that the witnesses they have there may actually know this individual from either one of those locations, or both. But I think they've gone beyond that. By putting that picture out, they're really engaging not only where this person lives today, let's say he's local, which is likely, but where he lived before, where he may have just moved from. It was very dynamic of them to get those images and not hand-wring about whether to put them out while we try other ways to identify him. Let everybody know, and let him know that everybody knows.

PHILLIP: Yes. And this man's face, as you can see there, very clearly showing in that image, not obscured really in any way, but putting out a clear picture for the world to see and potentially identify.

John Miller and Athena Jones stand by for us.

Again, we are waiting a news conference in this incident. We'll bring it to you as soon as it happens. We'll be right back.



PHILLIP: And more on this breaking news, another tragic update here. The number is 22. Twenty-two people have been killed in Lewiston, Maine, after two mass shooting incidents at a restaurant and another at a bar. The suspect is on the run at this hour.

A city councilor just told me on the air here on CNN that the number of victims, according to the city administrator, is that 22 number, plus dozens others injured. We are awaiting this first news conference on the shooting and the manhunt that is underway.

But first I want to go to CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner on what we are seeing unfold here. Dr. Reiner, we have been here many times before with these incidents, shooting incidents with rifles, long guns. And in this case though, we have a large number of victims going to a small number of hospitals.

Our previous guest just told us there are two medical facilities. Currently, Central Maine Medical Center is the one that has told us that they are receiving patients. What is going on in those facilities right now as a result of an incident like this?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, Abby, any Level 1 trauma center is equipped to handle a limited number of major trauma patients at any one time.

It's important to understand that a trauma team has, you know, a large number of physicians and nurses. And techs is composed of surgeons and ER docs and critical care docs and anesthesiologists. All of whom are important in the management of a single patient.

You know, at GW Hospital where I work, when there is a trauma that arrives in the ER, eight physicians, including residents and three nurses, converge on that patient. Now, in a mass trauma event like this, you have to pair the teams down into much smaller units.

So, what will happen is there'll be a call out to the medical staff in the hospital and it will essentially be all hands-on deck. But for a hospital that already perhaps has a busy emergency room, the ER is going to have to clear space.

You know, when I was a resident in New York in the early 1990s, an airliner crashed on Long Island and there were dozens of survivors and our hospital got 20 major trauma patients and to manage those patients, we had to move all the patients out of the ER and put them in the cafeteria along with people assigned to take care of them and then await this onslaught of patients with penetrating trauma, multiple broken bones, all kinds of unstable injuries. And that's what these hospitals in Maine are getting set to do.

Maine only has, I think, three level one trauma centers. So, if there are indeed over 50 people with penetrating gunshot wounds, then that will quickly overwhelm the ability of the hospitals in Maine to take these patients, and they'll have to start to look at transporting patients who can be transported to nearby states.

PHILLIP: Yeah, and we did also hear that, according to that city councilor, that they are bringing in resources from parts of the state like Bangor, Medevac resources to take some of these patients out.

One of the other factors in the number, the dozens, 50 to 60 potentially, of injured is that we don't know how many are gunshot injuries versus those who might have been injured in other ways, whether it's you know, broken glass or just simply being trampled by panicked patrons.

When you do talk though about the gunshot injuries from these types of weapons, can you tell us a little bit more about how catastrophic those injuries are and how patients can be saved?

REINER: Well, the images that we've seen captured by video suggest that the gunman had a long weapon. And the caliber of that ammunition creates havoc inside the body. And it destroys tissue and creates an enormous amount of bleeding. In order to stabilize a patient, like, you know, who comes in with, let's say, a gunshot wound to the chest, a patient can require dozens of units of blood.


And that's another thing that the hospitals in Maine who receive these patients are going to have to assess. What is the status of their blood bank? How much blood do they have on hand to resuscitate these patients?

So, the hospitals are going to have to gear up operating room staff, bring in as many teams as they can, as many anesthesiologists as they can. Lab technicians, you know, to man the labs at night. It's a, you know, full-on effort to bring as much of the capabilities to bear, to take care of these critically injured patients. And it's a massive undertaking.

PHILLIP: Massive undertaking indeed. Dr. Reiner, please stand by for us. I want to zero in on this ongoing manhunt at this hour, 10:35 P.M. Eastern time. We have Ed Davis with us, former Boston Police Commissioner. This suspect appears to still be at large.

We have an image, a pretty clear image that was released very quickly, and an image of a vehicle. Take us behind the scenes of what is happening on the ground as they search for this individual.

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Hi, Abby, certainly. So, they're looking for the vehicle primarily right now, and they'll have SWAT teams that are moving around in that vicinity and locking down all of the areas of egress.

The main turnpike is very close there. I have a home in Maine. I was just in Lewiston a couple of weeks ago. It's a lovely little community, but limited roadways. So that's going to be a good thing for the search.

The question is, does this guy go to ground in the area? Is he in the woods someplace and hiding out? Or is he in that car moving as quickly as he can out of the area of Lewiston? Two miles, two hours south is Boston. Two hours north and you're close to the Canadian border. It all depends on what's in his mind.

And the police are trying to read his mind right now and get as many people out on that roadway to try to find that vehicle. Once they locate the vehicle, and they will, there are cameras on the highways, they'll come up with the vehicle pretty quickly.


DAVIS: And once they do, they'll have a focus for a search on the ground.

PHILLIP: We're looking now at that picture of the vehicle as you were just describing it. When I'm sure you've seen this image, the door in this image is open. What does that tell you? What does this picture of this car -- it looks white or perhaps silver, what does it tell you about what might be going on here?

DAVIS: Well, an educated guess is that vehicle pulled up either in front of the bowling alley or the bar and he just rolled out of the vehicle with the door open, went in and did what he was planning on doing, and had that vehicle ready to move quickly when he came out. That's what that looks like to me. It's a guess, but it's an educated guess.

And the suspect, the picture of the suspect, it looks like this photo was taken from perhaps a security camera image right at the front, and he is completely unobscured in any way. Is there anything that you can read in from what you see in that picture of the suspect and potentially of the weapon that he is carrying to carry out this attack?

Well, that's a military style assault rifle. And from the looks of it, he's had some training with that weapon. He knows how to handle it. He's got his hands in the right place. He's got the stock of the weapon stuck in his shoulder. And he's looking over the sights, which makes him a very lethal and

probably somewhat experienced shooter. The type of person that -- that is probably a police officer's worst nightmare to go up against.

PHILLIP: Police officer's worst nightmare. Thank you so much for joining us on all of that detail. Everyone standby for us. We are still awaiting this news conference. At least 22 people have been killed in two mass shooting locations in Maine. Just another tragic night for the United States here. We'll be right back.



PHILLIP: More on this breaking news now. At least 22 people have been killed in Lewiston, Maine, after two mass shootings at a restaurant and a bar. There is an ongoing manhunt at this hour. We are told that President Biden has been briefed along with the United States Attorney General and the Chief of Homeland Security. We are still awaiting right now this first news conference with the latest on this incident.

But in the meantime, back now in the studio with our own John Miller. John, I actually want to kind of sit on that for a second, because we have not heard a whole lot official in a little while from law enforcement.

They very quickly put out these photos, two photos of the suspect, actually several photos of the suspect, and a photo of this car. Is that quietness a sign of what might be going on behind the scenes?

MILLER: Well, I think as they're preparing for the news conference, they're trying to get their information straight. The numbers of wounded, the numbers of dead have been changing since the beginning, and I think they're trying to get that update.

I think we're going to hear more about the suspect at the press conference. As the city councilman told us, they do have a tentative identification on a suspect. I would expect we may hear that name at the upcoming announcement. They've already put his picture out. They've already put a picture of the car out.

PHILLIP: Chances are somebody knows this person in the small communities.


MILLER: I think at this point they're aware of who it is. And I think we're going to learn that shortly.

PHILLIP: And in a state like Maine, as we were just talking to Charles Ramsey, there are not a lot of roads here. And this man may very well be in that car, maybe he left in that car, limited avenues for him to escape. How quickly do you think they could have a good sense of where he was headed at the very least.

MILLER: It's interesting, Abby, because, you know, these incidents end when police arrive and confront the shooter. The shooter takes his own life or engages with police or tries to take their lives. In this case, the shooter made a definitive effort, a deliberate effort to get away, to get away from the first location, to commit the second part of the crime, to get away again.

So, we have to ask ourselves, from a behavioral standpoint, is he getting away because he thinks he's not going to be identified, that he might get away with this crime? Or the worst scenario, is he getting away because he has another target, that he has another location?

And when you consider the fact that he's already killed 22 people, he has a military-style assault weapon, he likely has additional ammunition because, as you pointed out, this isn't the kind of thing you thought of at 7 o'clock tonight.

History shows us that these things are usually planned and prepared for, and pre-operational surveillance happens, and the obtaining of weapons and the stockpiling of ammunition, we've seen it again and again.

So, what is the end game? As our chief from Boston said a few minutes ago, Ed Davis, this is a- a nightmare scenario for police because they know they're not just confronting a criminal, they know not just an armed criminal, but a criminal who is heavily armed and has very little to lose in terms of there's nothing he's going to do beyond killing 22 people that's going to get him in any more trouble. So, from a psychological standpoint, they're going to have to be extraordinarily dynamic and careful at the same time.

PHILLIP: Yeah, and pull in as many resources potentially as possible, as you've described for us. I want to bring into the conversation retired NYPD Sergeant and Detective Felipe Rodriguez.

Detective Rodriguez, look, we were just discussing, as our previous guest said, this is law enforcement's worst nightmare -- a potential suspect who appears to know how to use the weapon that he used to carry out this attack. And now he's on the loose, it's late at night, it's very dark. What kind of net is law enforcement casting right now to try to encircle him or capture him tonight?

FELIPE RODRIGUEZ, RETIRED NYPD SERGEANT AND DETECTIVE: Well, when we see, we almost have to bring about the concept of two nets, right?

First is going to be gathering intelligence and getting electronic surveillance, trying to ping his phone, trying to get information. The other net that we have to cast as a physical net may be of establishing a perimeter to stop him from causing further damage.

You know, as a firearms instructor, I can tell you the body language that he's using, the aggressiveness of holding the firearm. Let me tell you, he is one of the worst nightmares I've ever seen. His ability to shoot with such accuracy and cause such damage, one of the worst pieces I've seen.

PHILLIP: That's a scary thought. Felipe Rodriquez, stand by for us. I do want to remind everyone, we are still waiting this news conference with an update on the latest in this shooting incident in Lewiston, Maine. Twenty-two people have been killed, dozens more injured. We'll be right back with more updates.



PHILLIP: More on this breaking news tonight. At least 22 people have been killed in Lewiston, Maine after two mass shootings at a restaurant and a bar there. The suspect's picture -- you see there on the screen, is out. There is a manhunt underway right now.

Police have also released a photo of his car. We are still right now awaiting a news conference in this incident, but we have also just learned that President Biden has spoken individually to a number of state officials in the state of Maine, including Maine's governor, Janet Mills, the senators, Angus King and Susan Collins, and congressmen in the Maine delegation.

President Biden right now at the White House stepping out of a state dinner event right now to receive updates on this incident. I want to go now to Josh Campbell again. Josh, we continue to wait for more information, but as I can imagine, the scramble is on to identify the suspect, to get to people that know him, to get to potentially his home. Can you give us more insight into how police are trying to really dig into who this individual might be?

CAMPBELL: Yeah, so you have this effort that's happening out on the ground for, you know, people to see there in the community. This, you know, police, they're doing this gridded search, trying to obviously find this individual, trying to determine if you know, there have been any type of sightings.

But behind the scenes, there's this intelligence collection effort. You know, authorities would be going, looking at CCTV footage, trying to pull ring doorbell cameras, trying to establish a pattern of travel that this suspect went. We know that these two confirmed locations were about four miles from each other, but after the second shooting, he then fled. And so, they would obviously try to move in that direction.


It's also the reason why we're seeing this multitude of police agencies that are now responsible. I mean, if you look at obviously in neighboring states, there's the nation of Canada, which our border guards have no doubt received a lookout with the suspect's picture just to be on the lookout in case he happens to try to travel to our neighbors to the north.

And so, you see officers fanning out, you see them trying to gather that intelligence collection. I think by at this point, there are pros and cons as we were discussing earlier to releasing a particular name.

Authorities certainly have their hands full right now trying to identify where the suspect is, and then if they actually are able to localize him in a particular area to then bring the resources that they need in order to safely take him into custody.

And so, at this point, you know, that's always a calculation authorities are making. One, do we hold close to the vest, such as a name, and what information do we want to put out there? They have done due diligence, police and quite very short order trying to get that photograph out that serves a number of purposes.

First, obviously, if someone in the community sees this person matching that description, they certainly want them to call 911, not approach the person, but call police. And then secondly, if there's someone watching who knows who this individual is, they want to hear from law enforcement.

Now, and the last thing I'll say as far as identification, obviously you mentioned the vehicle. If that is registered to the suspect, that could obviously help them glean the name of the person, but then also the firearm itself also has potential identifiers, Abby.

Yeah, and I want to underscore one of the things that you mentioned. Even as they try to locate the suspect, they identify the suspect, there are a lot of resources being brought to bear on this relatively small geographic area. The entire state of Maine is now involved.

We've also seen a statement from the FBI in Boston even offering their resources, as well. So, there's quite a lot going on right now. Josh Campbell, stand by for me. We are still awaiting this press conference that we are expecting any moment now to give us the latest updates in this incident in Lewiston, Maine. Stand by, we'll be right back.