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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Defiant Biden Rebukes Accelerating Calls For Him To Quit; Top House Intel Democrat Becomes 17th To Call On Biden To Quit; Michael Moore Says, Keeping Biden In Race Is Elder Abuse; President Biden Talks About His Pre-Debate Schedule At NATO Summit; Political Analysts Fact Check Biden And Trump Claims. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired July 11, 2024 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Damage control mode activated. That's tonight on NewsNight.

Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

President Biden in full nothing to see here mode at a critical press conference in the middle of a crisis like no other.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: And if you look to my schedule since I made that stupid mistake in the campaign -- in the debate, I mean, my schedule has been full bore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: But what Biden is shrugging off there as a stupid mistake was consequential enough to trigger 17 Democrats to call on him to quit this race. That now includes the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes.

And also, CNN has learned tonight that two of the Democrats whose opinions are probably regarded the most highly among their party loyalists, they are now worried. Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi have spoken privately about Biden and the future of his 2024 campaign and about how much harder they think Biden has made it to beat Donald Trump.

But there is no consensus between the two on a pathway forward, at least right now. But, post-presser, the Biden campaign They seem relieved. Tonight, a senior Biden official says they're happy with Biden's performance, even if the press conference was not a home run, and even if Biden excused his debate struggles by blaming his staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I love my staff, but they add things. They add things all the time at the very end. I'm catching hell for my wife.

Sometimes my staff talks a lot. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Biden did do some of the things he needed to do tonight. He gave relatively extensive policy answers that put meat and potatoes and language behind some critical global issues every world leader was looking for clarity on. And he also fell back on tried and true campaign tactics, like making the November choice not about him but about the other guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: My predecessor has made it clear, he has no commitment to NATO.

He's already told Putin, and I quote, do whatever the hell you want. It's far too important. It's about the world we live in for decades to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, Biden still believes that he is the most qualified person to beat Donald Trump, that he's the man for this moment, and that he'll rise to meet it, that this isn't about legacy, but about finishing the job. The question is, do his Democratic colleagues agree?

Joining me now is one of them, Democratic Congressman from California Brad Sherman. Congressman, thanks for joining us tonight. You have said that you wanted to see the president in an unscripted environment, basically in primetime, late in the evening. This was pretty close to that kind of scenario. Should Biden stay in this race or should he step aside?

REP. BRAD SHERMAN (D-CA): I'd still like to see some additional presentations. This was all of the questions were either about Biden's health or about foreign policy. The voters are going to make their decision based on domestic policy and especially economic policy. And that's what I think was missing. But Biden promised that this press conference is just the beginning or a continuation of his efforts to try to put the June 27th debate behind us. And I think he's got more to do, but he took an important step tonight.

PHILLIP: I mean, it sounds like you're saying you're willing to give him time. The question is how much time? I mean, you guys are about a month, a little over a month before your convention. The national narrative, the mindset of the voters is kind of setting in at this point. Do you feel like you're close to making a decision about whether or not you're going to make a statement clearly one way or another on this?

SHERMAN: Well, ultimately, it's not my decision. There are two possible decision-makers. One is Biden himself, who tonight was less defiant, indicated that he would go forward if he thought he was the best candidate. His campaign is even doing some polling to determine whether that's the case. And it's ultimately the decision of the delegates who will meet on August 20th.

[22:05:00]

The campaign is even doing some polling to determine whether that's the case. and it's ultimately the decision of the delegates who will meet on August 20th -- will meet on the 19th and should be voting on the 20th. There's some possibility that the vote would be virtual and in early August, but that still gives us time for Biden to do what he's promised to do, and that is to assuage our concerns and hopefully to make June 27th recede.

Look, is Biden the perfect candidate? No. We have a very deep bench and we could have a big argument as to which of those people we should dominate. But if any process that gives it to anyone other than Biden would be a very messy process and would hobble that candidate, whereas only Biden can say he got the, the votes of, I believe it's 14 million Democrats to be our nominee. So, we need to see how he performs.

PHILLIP: It does, though, sound like you are skeptical of the idea that he should simply step aside and perhaps the party should elevate the vice president. You're sounding to me like somebody who doesn't really think that that's a viable alternative.

SHERMAN: He will be doing more events. We will be appraising him every day right up until August 20th.

PHILLIP: That's exactly the scenario, by the way -- Congressman, that scenario that you just laid out, that is exactly what your colleague, Jim Himes, said was completely untenable. Do you think it's tenable for every day that you and your colleagues should be holding your breath about whether or not something bad is going to happen?

SHERMAN: Look, this is a presidential race, and every day you're looking at Donald Trump and his Project 2025, and him trying to disassociate himself with a plan to take away our democracy. This is a very close race. This is a race that has riveted all of our attention. And every day these candidates have to prove themselves. That being said, only if Biden is convinced that he should pull out, is there a clean way to get to the next step, and even that next step is messy and that's picking another candidate. Obviously, the vice president would be in the most likely position to get that and it might be a clean handoff. It might be a fight at the convention floor.

So, we're in a difficult circumstance. We're in a close race. Each candidate is evaluated every day. I wish Biden had had a spectacular debate on June 27th and we weren't having this conversation, but it's hard to pick a perfect answer to the situation we're in. And by God, it's never been more important.

PHILLIP: Wow, no perfect answers here, or rarely are there any perfect answers in politics. Congressman Brad Sherman, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

PHILLIP: And joining me now is the Democratic congresswoman from Georgia, Nikema Williams. She supports President Biden remaining in the race. Congresswoman, CNN is learning tonight that President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, they have spoken about a pathway forward for Biden. And if there is one, does the fact that that conversation happened give you pause?

REP. NIKEMA WILLIAMS (D-GA): Well, Abby, there's a lot of conversations happening across the country, but the conversation that matters most to me is the one with voters on the ground. I'm the chairwoman of the Democratic Party of Georgia. I was the chairwoman during our historic victory in 2020 for President Biden that nobody expected, probably not even the president himself. But I am committed to one thing before the debate, during the debate, after the debate, and that is defeating Donald Trump.

We've talked to voters on the ground. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution polled delegates across the state, not just in my deep blue district, but all across the state of Georgia. And 96 percent of those delegates are hardcore, sticking with our president, Joe Biden. And as long as he's at the top of the ticket, I am standing with my president.

We have a job to do, and that is to get out there and do the work, remind the voters who have delivered and that we're not finished yet.

So, I am ready to continue to do the work that I always knew would be hard, because, remember, Donald Trump reminded us we only won Georgia by 11,780 votes. So, we knew it would be a tough battle. That's the nature of a battleground state. We have work to do, Abby, and I'm ready to do the work.

PHILLIP: Three Congress people came out after this press conference to say that they're not going to support President Biden. It kind of sounds like he did not do enough to address their concerns. Does that worry you?

WILLIAMS: So, Abby, the goalpost keeps moving, and a lot of people have said, well, they want to hear this, or they want them to do that.

[22:10:00]

But at the end of the day, what we have to do is get out there and have conversations with the voters. The time that we're spending going back and forth on who should be our nominee when the voters and the Democratic primaries across the country have spoken, we have our presumptive nominee.

So, what we need to do now is to paint the contrast. We have one president who has already told us that he will be a dictator on day one. And then we have President Joe Biden who works every day to deliver for the American people. That's what I'm focused on. We need to make sure that we are focused on defeating Donald Trump between now and November 5th. We only have about 119 days, so not a lot of time to continue to have this conversation. So, I'm focused.

PHILLIP: Yes. The president said today that he believes that he's the most qualified, but he does believe he says that there are other Democrats who can beat Trump. One of them, potentially, is his own vice president, Kamala Harris. Do you think that she would be viable to beat Trump given the concerns that the voters say overwhelmingly, frankly, that they have with President Biden?

WILLIAMS: So, I have full confidence in my vice president, my soror, and I am confident that she can do the job. However, she is not our presumptive nominee. And right now, our job is to paint the contrast between President Joe Biden, who has delivered for the American people for the past three and a half years and our failed former president, Donald Trump, who bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, who has told us that he would be a dictator on day one.

So, we have a story to tell. We have a contrast in this election, and it's not about our vice president, who I can't wait to support someday for president, but she's not our nominee right now.

PHILLIP: The president also said today in this press conference, quote, if my doctors tell me I need to have another neurological exam, I'll do it. I wonder, do you think he should?

WILLIAMS: I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not a medical expert.

PHILLIP: But in the interest of addressing the concerns and perhaps even shutting them down.

WILLIAMS: So, again, I am not a medical doctor. I heard what President Biden said tonight. He went in depth in foreign policy. He stood there, and he was the commander-in-chief for our country, and he showed us why he should be in charge of this country. And there is never a doubt in my mind, but he reaffirmed that tonight. And so what we need to do is ask Donald Trump, is he willing to do the same thing? Would he have a 60-minute press conference with no notes and answer any questions that's brought before him and bring any type of substance to a conversation around foreign policy? I doubt it, because we've heard him time and time again. And so we need to do the work between now and November 5th to show the American people how President Biden has delivered for us time and time again.

We have a contrast in this election. Right now, we only have two presumptive nominees for the major parties in this country, and that is President Joe Biden and our failed former president, who bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, told us he would be a dictator on day one. And we have work to do because the American people have a choice to make, and it is quite clear to me that President Joe Biden deserves four more years to finish the job.

PHILLIP: Congresswoman Nikema Williams, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Abby.

PHILLIP: And up next, filmmaker and Democrat Michael Moore is standing by. He's calling on Biden to leave the race, as many of his Democratic colleagues are, and he's also bashing the president's team for, quote, elder abuse.

Plus, my panel, they're standing by to react to that press conference and what to expect in the minutes and the hours ahead in this developing story. This is NewsNight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:18:18]

PHILLIP: More on our breaking news tonight, a consequential press conference for President Biden's political survival as more Democrats call on him to quit this race. My next guest has called Biden's debate performance, quote, the cruelest form of elder abuse I have ever been forced to watch.

Joining me now is Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore. Michael do you still feel that way? Is this still elder abuse after what you saw in the press conference tonight?

MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Well, yes, I believe if you love Joe Biden, never should have sent him out on that stage that night. I mean, imagine if that was your father, your grandfather or whatever. It was heartbreaking to watch a person freeze like that. It wasn't about the gaffes or flubs or whatever. It was about clearly something was wrong. And if you have parents or grandparents, if you're over 50 years old, you've seen what the decline looks like, and you can't -- as George Clooney said yesterday, can't tell 51 million people who watched what we saw that that didn't happen. It happened, and you can't unsee it.

PHILLIP: Yes, and I -- yes, go ahead.

MOORE: Well, I was just going to say you asked about tonight. Now, tonight was the old former, the Joe Biden that we're kind of used to, except now four years older than he was in 2020. But he hit his mark. Yes, he made a couple flubs, but we know that. That is Joe Biden. He's the gaffe meister, but that's okay. People are not worried about that. They're worried about one thing. Trump must not set foot on the property known as 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue ever again.

[22:20:00]

He must be defeated in November and we must do whatever we need to do to make sure that that happens. This isn't about being loyal to Joe Biden. This isn't about being grateful as I am for his three and a half years of what he's done. I've said, he's probably the most progressive president we have had in my lifetime. He has done so much, so much good that I don't want to diminish any of that. But you don't let somebody keep playing anything or doing anything just because they've done 30 or 40 or 50 years of great stuff. It's about how are you doing it now and can you do it now.

And the question is -- first of all, he said people -- they want them to have a neurological test. You should have that test this weekend. Don't let this go on any longer. Answer the question. Let people know whether something's wrong or not. That'll solve a lot of this problem. But I think --

PHILLIP: I mean, it seems to me that tonight really is the dilemma, right? It's President Biden in a setting where he is asked a complex foreign policy question. He answers it with depth, with knowledge, with understanding. He makes some flubs. How much should people weigh a night in which -- I don't know if you have quibbles with the argument that he had a cold. Let's say he had a cold and was not feeling well on the debate night. How much should they weigh that versus the Joe Biden, who, on the issues that matter, can answer the questions?

MOORE: Okay. We may be Americans, but we're not stupid. Please don't tell us things like he had a cold, or it was jet lag, or any of this stuff. Don't fib to us like that. The fibbing is from the other side. That's the Trump way of doing it. Don't do that to us. We know what we saw. Something is wrong. Tell us what's wrong, if anything is wrong. There's nothing wrong with asking that question and asking. But it looks like they don't want us to know something. That's what it looks like. It has the appearance of we don't want you to see him.

Why is this the first press conference in eight months? Eight months, they've been hiding him away, keeping him away from a solo press conference with the press. You know, why is it that in the Michigan primary in February of this year, why did he not campaign in Michigan? Not once for three weeks leading up to the primary did he go to Michigan. He was afraid to go to Michigan. He was afraid because we have 300,000 Arab and Muslim voters in our state, and he didn't want to deal with that. He didn't want to deal with the campus protests, young people just absolutely hating this war and funding Netanyahu and all that, just want to completely ignore it.

And because we have a governor that would not send in the Michigan State Police to club protesters and tear them out of their tents and tear gas them. That's not our governor. So, they got to have their actual protests he, they kept him away from Michigan for the primary. The primary, oh, look at all the votes I got in the primary. Well, nobody saw him. And you know what, Abby, this is what happened in 2016. Hillary did not campaign in Michigan or Wisconsin. They said, don't go there. It'll only upset the Trump voters will remind them they've got to get out there and vote. And so she didn't campaign and she lost Michigan and Wisconsin.

And as everybody has shown, all the data shows if you lose -- I'll just quote Michelle Goldberg, the columnist from the New York Times, it just took her three days, spending three days in Detroit and Dearborn, other parts of Michigan, to say he's not going to win Michigan because he got 60 percent of the Arab and Muslim vote four years ago in Michigan, 60 percent. The latest poll, 19 percent of the Arab and Muslim vote in Michigan is going to vote for him. It's a huge drop.

PHILLIP: What do you think happens after all of this though, Michael? I mean, if he were to step down, who should replace him? How should that process go? He suggested today that if somebody were to replace him, he said they would start from scratch. They would be at a disadvantage financially and politically.

MOORE: Correct. And that person's name is Kamala Harris. She's not starting from scratch. She's been there doing the job and has been doing a great job. And the founding fathers set this up, because back then you only lived to 45 or 50 years old. So, they knew people would not make it to the end of their term. They created the vice president office specifically for that in the Constitution.

20 percent of our presidents, we've had 45 before Biden, 20 percent of them have not made it to the end of their term. So, it's not unusual for us to have to swear somebody in. And I think if Joe Biden decides either I'm not going to be able to beat Trump, all the data says I can't do it, or if the neurological test says that maybe he shouldn't run, then he should resign.

[22:25:06]

It's not just about stepping aside, resign. And we Jerry Ford this.

PHILLIP: So, do you -- okay, so let's say, Michael -- Michael, let's say he doesn't do it. Let's say he doesn't do any of that. He stays in this race.

MOORE: He probably won't.

PHILLIP: Would you still support him?

MOORE: Support him? Not only that's the wrong word. I will insist everybody watching me right now that if Biden is the candidate on the ballot, every single one of us has to get out there and vote and vote for him in November, and you have to bring five people to the polls with you. Because I'm telling you, this is the only way Trump can win Michigan, or I think the majority of the swing states. He's going to have to count on people being so depressed, the depressed vote, staying home, or showing up like Michiganders did in Democratic districts in Michigan in 2016, this is when Hillary is the candidate, 75,000 Michiganders refused to vote on the top line. They went to the polls. They voted. They voted to all down ballot. They wouldn't vote for president. They didn't like Hillary. She lost the state by 10,000 votes, two votes per precinct.

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, this is going to be one of those --

MOORE: So, of course, I -- and yes -- and everyone watching whoever that candidate is on the Democratic ballot. We have to stop Trump. This is not just like, oh, this. I don't like this or I don't like it. There's a lot of things. I don't like it. I've been very outspoken about the Gaza war and Biden being the banker for Netanyahu funding it and sending over 24, 000 bombs to Israel to bomb a civilian population. That's on his conscience. He will have to deal with it at some point. But it's very upsetting. But, yes, stopping Trump, Trump must never enter the Oval Office again. And no matter -- how anybody feels about this tonight, wherever you stand, we all have to have a collective agreement. And there's more of us than there are people that support him.

PHILLIP: Well, Michael, we had, we had your governor on the show last night. She said right here, it's going to be a close one in Michigan. We appreciate you joining us tonight. Thank you very much.

MOORE: Thank you for having me. PHILLIP: And next more on the new CNN reporting that former President Obama and Speaker Emerita Pelosi privately spoke to discuss the future of Biden's campaign, as Democrats try to steer Biden out of this race. Stand by for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:31:54]

PHILLIP: Much more now on President Biden's NATO conference tonight. CNN's Daniel Dale is with us to join us about a fact check about what the president said. Daniel, President Biden talked about pacing himself more, and he pointed to the schedule that he had before the debate. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The next debate, I'm not going to be traveling in 15 time zones a week before. Anyway, that's what it was about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: All right, so walk us through what the facts are here.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: It's not true that he was traveling through 15 time zones the week before that June 27th debate. In fact, he returned from his travels in Europe 12 days before that CNN presidential debate.

He had a fundraiser in Los Angeles that day. He returned to Washington 11 days before that debate, and then he spent a full week before the debate preparing at Camp David. So, yes, he did do travel in the weeks prior, but not in the week prior.

PHILLIP: So, he also tried to clean up a gaffe from this afternoon earlier at the NATO conference where he called President Zelenskyy President Putin. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: At the very end, I said here, I mean, Putin. I said, no, I'm sorry, Zelenskyy. And then I added five other names.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: What really happened earlier today?

DALE: So, it is entirely true that he quickly corrected himself after calling President Zelenskyy President Putin. But it's not true that he then said five other names. I just don't know what he was talking about there. Listen to or watch the video of what actually happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: And now, I want to hand it over to the President of Ukraine who has as much courage as he has determination. Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin. President Putin -- is going to beat President Putin. President Zelenskyy. I'm so focused on beating Putin. We got to worry about it. Anyway, Mr. President,

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: I'm better.

BIDEN: You are a hell of a better.

ZELENSKYY: Thank you so much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: All right, Daniel.

DALE: Go on, Abby. I'm sorry.

PHILLIP: Oh, go ahead.

DALE: I was just going to say from there, President Zelenskyy just delivered remarks. While President Biden stood beside him silently, there was no recitation of additional names like he suggested tonight.

PHILLIP: Right. Finally, there was a reference that President Biden made to Donald Trump and what Trump knows about NATO. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I think he said in one of his rallies, don't hold me to this, recently, where NATO, I just learned about NATO or something to that effect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Okay, so is that true?

DALE: It's not, at least not quite. So, Biden did clearly acknowledge here that he wasn't sure he was getting the Trump remark correct, but he indeed was not getting the Trump remark correct. In fact, Trump at this recent rally this week said that he had not known about NATO before he went to his first summit in 2017 as president, not today in 2024. Listen to what former President Trump actually said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (R): But I didn't want to be obnoxious because I felt, you know, it's the first time I'd ever done this. I went.

[22:35:04]

I didn't even know what the hell NATO was too much before, but it didn't take me long to figure it out, like about two minutes. And the first thing I figured out was they weren't paying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DALE: So, he said that he figured it out very early in his presidency, didn't say he just learned about it today or recently.

PHILLIP: Yeah, not exactly a great set of facts for Trump there, either. Daniel Dale, thank you very much. And more on our breaking news, Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi meeting privately to discuss the future of President Biden's campaign.

Joining me now, CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings, former Democratic congressman from New Jersey, Tom Malinowski, CNN political commentator, S.E. Cupp and CNN contributor Leah Wright- Rigueur. President Biden and Nancy Pelosi huddling is the sort of thing.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: President Obama.

PHILLIP: I'm sorry, President Obama.

TOM MALINOWSKI (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FOR N.J.: Fact check.

PHILLIP: And fact check. And Nancy Pelosi huddling is the sort of thing that is kind of causing palpitations among Biden allies. There's been just an enormous amount of anxiety about what Obama is thinking, what he is doing. How significant do you think that this is ultimately?

MALINOWSKI: Well, we're doing criminology here. But I would say this. There's kind of a Jedi council of elders in the Democratic Party, including former speaker, former president Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. And they could have ended this two or three days ago had they stood with the president and said, you are a candidate. This conversation is over.

All of us who have expressed concern about the president's capacity to preserve his legacy by winning this election would at that point say, this is it. We're all in. We will crawl over broken glass to reelect this guy and he didn't do it.

PHILLIP: Didn't Pelosi do that, though?

MALINOWSKI: They didn't.

PHILLIP: You don't think that she did, ultimately.

MALINOWSKI: No.

PHILLIP: So, behind the scenes, though, look, there is a sense, some of this I think is really overblown. And a feeling among Biden allies that Obama is pulling the strings behind the scenes, that he really wants him out, but isn't saying so publicly. Do you think there's any validity to that?

MALINOWSKI: No, I think what unifies everybody here in the Democratic Party is a conviction that this lying, dictator-loving criminal sociopath named Donald Trump, who most Americans wouldn't trust with their teenage daughters, cannot be President of the United States.

And we are trying to figure out the best way to do that. Loving Joe Biden, admiring him, believing he is the best person to do the job, but asking whether he is the best person to keep the job.

PHILLIP: So, Scott, I do want you to respond to the actual press conference tonight, because, look, we played the fact check. It stands on its own. The flubs, we know what they are. But there was a lot of substance to the press conference, to the degree that I think there was some reporting that the Trump campaign, they're breathing a sigh of relief because they think Biden might stay.

But the question is, I mean, Biden had a command of the policy tonight in a way that I'm not sure that you could even say Trump would.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, did he? I mean, I wasn't too happy with some of his answers on Israel.

PHILLIP: You may not like it, but he had answers.

JENNINGS: Okay. I mean, and you know what? That's fine. Let's debate his views on foreign policy. By the way, his entire administration was brought down because of foreign policy in August of 2021. When he went underwater on his job approval and has never come back, it was because of foreign policy.

I can't believe all the people high-fiving themselves in the Democratic Party over his command of foreign policy tonight. I didn't think he was very good on Israel today. I thought he had some rambling answers on some of the political stuff. He had some weird answers on the polls. It's obvious to me that his wife and son are not letting him see the actual state of his political affairs.

But, yes, I agree he did enough to continue to limp along in the forest and not lay down and die, I guess. I mean, and that's good for Donald Trump because he's beating Joe Biden right now, and I don't think he's particularly close.

CUPP: I -- it was hard to watch and yet another hard-to-watch Biden event, and it doesn't make me -- I'm not sad and I'm not laughing at it. I'm actually pretty mad. I'm mad at Joe Biden and Democrats because I gave them my first Democratic vote in 2020 with the express understanding and promise that he would be a one-term president put there to get Trump out.

He did it, that's why I voted for him. He said he'd be a bridge. Now, I've known for years that he is too old to run again for another four- year term, and I was told by Democrats that he could still beat Donald Trump. Neither of those things are true.

He cannot do another four years. He cannot beat Donald Trump. I feel a bit hoodwinked, and I'm angry. And as a Nikki Haley voter -- there are lots of us, millions of us, in fact, who are still voting for Nikki Haley, even after she conceded, there are lots of us to be gotten.

[22:40:08]

And if Democrats really wanted to invigorate the ticket, they'd get rid of Joe Biden with a very nice thank you. Thank you for doing the job. Now it's time to move aside, and we're going to put someone in who can win millions of me, who gave the vote in the first place, and the rest of the votes that are up for grabs that are not already with Donald Trump. That they are sticking with this man is infuriating, irresponsible, and it's political malpractice.

PHILLIP: Do you think, Leah, that the Biden feeling -- that if it's someone else, maybe they can beat Trump, but they come into the race hobbled financially, politically. The Biden campaign, they've argued, anybody else doesn't have the baked-in negatives that are actually Biden's advantage because they would basically get an onslaught of it for the last four months of this campaign. What does history tell us about a party moving on at this late stage or going into a convention uncertain who their nominee would be?

LEAH WRIGHT RIGUEUR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think there is one person who wouldn't be hobbled by this, and that's Kamala Harris. And in some ways, in some respects, she's the elephant in the room. And so, I think Jim Clyburn, who was on here a couple of nights ago, had the right approach when he said, let her compete. Let her go in.

And part of what we see, and part of, I think, what history brings into the conversation, is that when you don't allow Democrats to have this kind of conversation, when you cut off the actual debate, that's when problems erupt. And so, we can look at a moment like 1968.

I know a lot of people have made comparisons and in many ways, 1968 is far worse than where we are right now, but it's getting there. But one of the things that we see is that when actual debate is cut off amongst the Democratic Party, that's when kind of unrest erupts. That's when problems erupt.

JENNINGS: Who cut off the debate? I mean, the White House moved to squash a primary --

RIGUEUR: Yes.

JENNINGS: - because, obviously, at the time, they knew how bad it was. So, they had to cut off a primary because if somebody had been able to seriously compete with the president, it might have turned out differently.

RIGUEUR: But this is part of the reason why it's so important that Democrats are coming out right now and having these conversations. Now, they should have had them four years ago. They should have had them two years ago. They are late to the party. But one of the most effective things that they can be doing right now is having these conversations and boosting Kamala Harris in a way that reminds the rest of the country that there is somebody in the White House right now who's competent to do the job.

CUPP: And that's another

PHILLIP: Let me get you in here quickly because it's still a trickle, right? It's three more, but we're at 17. So, how big do you think that this is among your former colleagues?

MALINOWSKI: So, I've spoken to a lot of my former colleagues who agree with the 16 or 17. They're not saying it. And you can say it's timidity, but it's also because a lot of people close to the president, who's a human being, have persuasively argued that he doesn't respond well to public pressure, that it makes him dig in more.

And so, a lot of people are speaking privately to the president, to the White House. They're writing letters. They're finding other ways to convey their views. But it's unmistakable where the vast majority of the Democratic Party is on what the wisest and most courageous choice for the president should be.

PHILLIP: You would say it's true, the vast majority --

MALINOWSKI: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- in Congress,

MALINOWSKI: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- thinks that Joe Biden is not the best nominee at this moment.

MALINOWSKI: Correct. Yes.

CUPP: Every congressional member's up. That's why. I mean, every member is up. And so, there's a lot of down-ballot concerns about the health of their own elections. And Democrats understand there's so much at stake. They don't want to lose the House, the Senate and the White House with this Supreme Court. The stakes are too high for this, for this kind of egoism.

PHILLIP: Everyone. We'll be back in a little bit. Stick around for us. The story is far from over. Up next, Donald Trump's decision on his running mate is imminent. Did tonight ultimately change anything about who he might pick? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:48:21]

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): I have complete confidence that Joe Biden will do the patriotic thing for the country.

UNKNOWN: I still believe deeply that Joe Biden is a patriot.

UNKNOWN: Joe Biden has always, throughout his political career, done the right thing. I think he will always do the right thing. That's because he loves his country more than himself.

SEN. JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D-CO): I have great confidence, whatever, whatever President Biden decides, that he'll do the right thing for the country.

UNKNOWN: I called on him really for the good of the country yesterday to step aside.

UNKNOWN: It's not really about Biden. This is about the country.

KAINE: I just have a fundamental belief in his patriotic ability to put country first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Democrats appearing not so subtly to use Joe Biden's patriotism as a gentle way to nudge him out of this race. Better to use a carrot than a stick, I guess you could say, as he's ready to use the stick, I think, is what you're trying to say.

CUPP: This should not be a hard conversation, there's too much at stake. And Democrats are in a tough spot because they haven't conditioned Democratic voters to accept a Kamala Harris nomination. Joe Biden, for whatever reasons, I think, kind of marginalized her in the White House instead of promoting her as an asset. And so, it is a little late to be saying, well, here's Kamala Harris. Everyone needs to embrace her.

That said, I think they would, because I think if they got to the place after all of this agitation, consternation and infighting, where they did take Joe Biden off and put Kamala on, Democrats would say that's enough. No more talking, no more arguing. This is the -- this is the candidate. Get on board.

[22:50:00]

And I think they would.

PHILLIP: All right. And meanwhile, I mean, Donald Trump is days away now from picking his vice president. There's a lot of chatter that it would be J.D. Vance. Younger creates that contrast that Trump cannot necessarily create himself at 78 years old. What does that do to all of the consternation that your party is experiencing?

MALINOWSKI: Well, it would be doubling down on crazy manga, as well.

PHILLIP: Right.

MALINOWSKI: And it would actually strengthen the Democrats' message, especially if we can present a ticket that represents the future and not what I think most Americans are scared of. Look, I think there is an anti- MAGA majority in every key state in the country and every key congressional district in the country, which is why this election should not be this hard to win so long as we present a ticket that speaks to those voters who, above all, don't want a rerun of the 2020 election.

And this is the mistake I think the Republicans will be stuck with if we move in a different direction, that they nominated somebody who just wants a rerun of 2020 if we nominate somebody who leaves Trump and whoever his running mate is stuck as the candidates of the past, we win.

PHILLIP: I mean, doubling down on MAGA is exactly what J.D. Vance would be as a pick. I mean, do you think that is a smart strategy? JENNINGS: I think most of the people who appear to be in the finals

are perfectly fine. I think whoever he chooses is going to have a marginal impact on the race. I think Vance is perfectly fine and defensible and will do a good job. I also think that about Rubio. I think that about Burgum. I think that about Tim Scott. I think they all bring something different to the table.

The one thing Vance is very good at, and he's very smooth, it's messaging to the working class of America that feels like they've been left behind by the elites in this country. That is the bread and butter messaging expertise of J.D. Vance, and he's very good at it.

And that is where Trump thinks they're going to win the election, by taking the core of the Democratic Party, the people without college degrees, the blue-collar workers, the folks out there who have been crushed the most by inflation. That's who they think they're going to steal from the old Democratic, the old New Deal coalition, are coming to the Republicans. That's what they think.

PHILLIP: This is one of the weird things about this cycle, is that Trump, even though he's been president before, gets to add a new person to his ticket because he kicked his old vice president to the curb. The Democrats, they are, it seems, Biden wants to run the same playbook as 2020. Does that work? I mean, it's not actually an exact analog of that last time that he ran against Trump.

WRIGHT RIGUEUR: No, but that playbook also doesn't work. Americans have very short memories, and so the president can do all that he wants to remind them. But what Americans think about is, where are they in the now? We know that Americans are hyper-focused on Joe Biden's age. What I think, to S.E.'s point, what they haven't done enough of is pulling up Kamala Harris and saying, she's ready, she's ready to serve, this is what she's good at.

They started to do it with abortion, and that is where she has been really strong. And in some respects, I think, even though vice presidential candidates and vice presidential people on the ticket don't really add or subtract, this is one area where she's going to be incredibly important and where she has value, where she can do messaging, that I think can compete with an underrepresented group that really could decide this election, right?

PHILLIP: There's no conversation that will happen in this campaign that does not involve Kamala Harris from now on.

JENNINGS: I think what you're saying is dead on, because there's not a single American who's going to cast a ballot for Joe Biden that thinks he's going to serve four years. So, they are actually casting a ballot for a Harris presidency at some point. Everyone's going to believe that.

So, to your point, the idea that she's ready, that she's tested, that she could actually do the job, whether she ends up as the nominee or just as the V.P., it matters not, because most people are going to believe she's going to wind up in the office if they vote for Biden anyway. PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Great conversation. Thank you very much, as always. And up next for us, a Republican lawmaker says that America should return to a time that was far from perfect for many, many Americans, to say the least. I'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:58:46]

PHILLIP: Finally tonight, while many conservatives are planning for 2025, one of them is talking about the 60s. Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman believes welfare programs introduced decades ago, like food stamps, has led to the decline of the American family. Now, I fact checked the economics of this before when Congressman Byron Donalds made that same argument. You can feel free to watch that. But as Grothman spoke, he made this observation with a nostalgic twist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. GLENN GROTHMAN (R-WI): Every year, of course, I am lobbied by people who want the government, therefore, to take up an even greater role in their children's life, be it daycare, be it pre-school, be it after school programs, whatever.

They clearly want the children raised by the government. So, I hope the press corps picks up on this, and I hope Republican and Democrat leadership put together some sort of plan for January in which we work our way back to where America was in the 1960s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Just to be very clear, this was the 1960s. And thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.