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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Stumps in Montana as Harris Hits Battleground Arizona; Democrats Raise Questions About Trump's Acuity Amid Lapses; Harris and Campaign Talk Tough on Border as GOP Attacks; "NewsNight" Tackles State Of Presidential Race 2024. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 09, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: So, Arizona, this has been a big week --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: -- as the nominees hit the road, Donald Trump finds he faces the same questions that dogged Joe Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I went down in a helicopter with him. We thought, maybe this is the end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Is the oldest presidential candidate in history up to the job?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's dreaming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Meanwhile, Kamala Harris campaigns on the issue that dogged her for years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She backed the toughest border control bill in decades.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Plus, MAGA Republicans get a taste of the Joe Rogan experience, the backlash to the podcast bros nod to RFK Jr.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's get this done, hottie! Hotties for Harris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: -- do celebrity endorsements matter?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULK HOGAN, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: Look, Trumpamania runs wild.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: A surprising new discovery about Hollywood endings.
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, Megan Hays, and Madison Gessiotto. Welcome to a special edition of NewsNight, State of the Race.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Audie Cornish in New York. Abby Phillip has the night off.
So, let's get right to what America is talking about. Donald Trump's campaign, is it at a crossroads? The Republican nominee speaks live tonight in Montana, and it's the site of a fierce Senate race. It's also Trump's only campaign event this week.
Now, the Kamala Harris campaign has taken advantage of this, calling him lazy. Other voices are raising questions about his stamina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Sometimes you get the feeling that Trump's heart isn't in this anymore, the laziness of his attacks.
You can just tell that he's lost a step. You know, he's getting mushier, fuzzier, more confused.
Is this a symptom of something? Is he struggling to maintain a grip on reality or to tell the difference between dreams and what is real or, best case scenario, he's just lying again?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Add to that the former president's Mar-a-Lago reset, well that's only raised more questions about his mental acuity, especially when it comes to stories where the facts don't add up, his claim that he nearly died in a helicopter crash alongside California Democrat Willie Brown. The former San Francisco mayor told CNN, it wasn't me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never happened, period. And I think my memory is probably better than his.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: How often do you get confused with Jerry Brown?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not too often.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Well, tonight Donald Trump is actually pretty worked up about this, so much so that he called up The New York Times claiming that he has flight records to prove it. But when asked to provide those records to Reporter Maggie Haberman, he basically mocked her repeating the request in kind of a sing song voice.
So, let's discuss. And, Scott, I want to talk to you because during the GOP primaries, Nikki Haley, we talked about this a lot, said there should be kind of a mental competency tests for candidates over the age of 75. Now, that Biden has withdrawn, does that move the spotlight onto Trump on that very question?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I never agreed, by the way, with the competency test.
CORNISH: You didn't?
JENNINGS: No, I think elections are competency tests.
CORNISH: Yes.
JENNINGS: I think primaries are. Kamala Harris didn't have one, by the way. And I think general elections are competency tests, and that's when the voters get to decide. So, I never thought that was a great -- I thought it was a gimmick, honestly. And the rigors of a presidential campaign are the competency tests. We already saw --
CORNISH: See, now you sound like Biden.
JENNINGS: Well, we --
CORNISH: Isn't that what he was saying?
JENNINGS: That's the point. Like the rigors of the campaign, he had to literally quit his profession of 50 years because he couldn't stand up to it. And so the voters will have to decide who's up to the challenge here. I mean, you can say what you want about Trump, but Kamala Harris, on the other hand, not willing to answer questions, not willing to defend her record, not willing to sit in front of a reporter and talk about all the flip flops on her issues, so you tell me what's more important.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There is one distinct difference, however, though, and I think that Scott knows this as well, but Kamala Harris has been in Philadelphia, she's been in Detroit, she's been in Wisconsin, she's in Arizona tonight, she's in Las Vegas tomorrow. And the fact of the matter is, Donald Trump just went down to his lobby. [22:05:02]
He walked about 12 steps to his lobby and had a press conference where, you know, people like to say he took questions from the media. But if you lie repeatedly, I mean, what are we doing? I mean, so that's the question. And then tonight he's in Montana, the great state of Montana that is so competitive, it's almost a swing state, that he's there just talking to voters about what he's going to do for the future.
And so my only point is that Donald Trump is not campaigning. Donald Trump is showing that he's diminished, one, and, two, he's lazy. And I think that should bother somebody.
CORNISH: I see your face. So, this is the talking point, right? Like somehow you do make yourself vulnerable to something like this or something like what Buttigieg was saying, and it has been a lot of years, right, since 2016. How are you thinking about this?
MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: Well, I think he's taking questions, which Kamala is not, no matter how you want to spin it. She's not taking the questions, and he is taking questions. She has not sat down, and it's both Democrats and Republicans, not just me, criticizing her for not sitting down and having an interview. And I'm telling you, I've been around President Trump over the past year. He is much sharper than President Biden was, that's for sure. When Democrats went on and continue to say he's the sharpest he's ever been in his life, we all know that wasn't true.
CORNISH: But, Madison --
GESIOTTO: he is sharp. I think he's not diminished. You can argue that he's not the best choice for president, but he is not diminished.
CORNISH: Madison, I want to -- I don't want to pit you guys against each other. I think I want to have an understanding from you. What does it mean when Biden drops out? You are the oldest then, so are you vulnerable to those same attacks?
GESIOTTO: Well, and he's the oldest, of course, but setting an arbitrary age limit, I don't think, is ever a good idea. So, when we had someone like Nikki Haley coming out and saying, let's do these competency tests at 75. Why not 70? Why not 40? I mean, every single person is very different at different ages. And so I don't think that age limit is a good idea. That's why we should look back at things like term limits when people are concerned about (INAUDIBLE), not age limits.
SELLERS: It's a little different, though. My argument would be that if you have somebody who recounts a helicopter crash with someone who -- and that didn't happen, like, factually, it didn't happen.
GESIOTTO: Well, he's saying that he has the records to prove it but. So, it's a matter of who you believe in. I'm not saying whether it did or it didn't. I don't have information to tell you one way or another on that. SELLERS: But if we want to do that game, then do you believe that he actually had larger rallies than the March on Washington in 1963?
GESIOTTO: Listen, he has huge rallies on many occasions. I'm not going to be able to tell you the exact number of people at them, but to say that he doesn't have a following or he doesn't have supporters or doesn't have big rallies or doesn't have big crowds --
SELLERS: That's not the argument.
GESIOTTO: I don't care whether it's a Republican or Democrat politician, you can point to anybody and say, this is not exactly correct. He's not the only person --
SELLERS: I don't what you call him in Kentucky. I don't know what we call him in Ohio, but what we call him in South Carolina, those are like lies.
CORNISH: Let me come away from the rally thing for a second, because the thing that intrigues me, and, Megan, I want you to be able to jump in here, is even the Willie Brown story. It was supposed to be a moment where he could perhaps draw on an attack line. Instead, in a way, it's like stepping on a rake, right? And now it's fact-checking this story about a helicopter. That's not what you want, messaging- wise. Am I wrong there? I'm not the comms expert, so you tell me.
MEGAN HAYS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, absolutely not. He's now going backwards in the messaging. He wanted to put the spotlight back on him, and to make people look at him to vote for him. I don't think that press conference yesterday turned anyone who's an independent voter for him. I don't think I actually think he probably turned people away from him because all he did was get up there and lie. And now you're fact- checking lies and having Willie Brown get up there and say that it didn't happen.
JENNINGS: A couple of things. Number one, don't denigrate Montana.
SELLERS: I like Montana.
JENNINGS: Montana is an important place because it's going to be the Senate race that gives Republicans control of the U.S. Senate. So, no matter who the president is --
SELLERS: I like how you went back to the --
JENNINGS: Republicans -- well, you said something that annoyed me. So, that was number one. Number two, the press conference, there's a message here that could win the campaign. It's called radical liberals versus common sense conservatives. Now, they had this framing down against Biden, strength versus weakness. They've not yet built the box to defeat Harris, but it exists. The materials are there. The blueprints are there. They just need to get out the hammer and nails.
And he needs to internalize that because the campaign can run all the paid media and do all the things it does, but he's the one that's got to sell it. And he's got to sell it and then they also have to draw her out and do an interview and do a debate and into the public setting. So, it's a two-pronged attack, but a lot of it's on him.
CORNISH: But you laid it out just there. I mean, you have laid it out, bang, bang, bang. And I'm surprised that for someone who was known so well for drawing a box around his rivals, right, like take you down with a nickname, lean in into it all the way, and here we are all these weeks later, a little bit of a struggle?
GESIOTTO: Well, and I think from a comms perspective, every single opportunity that the Trump campaign or representatives of the Trump campaign have to talk about the issues, to talk about the economy, to talk about the border is a win, because you go and you talk to people across country.
CORNISH: Only if they do that.
GESIOTTO: Well, of course. But every single opportunity that they're not doing it, I think, sometimes can be a loss.
So, I do think there have been some mistakes made where they had an opportunity to shine light on the issues that could be decision-makers for many independent voters, for lower propensity voters to get out and vote Republican this year. That's who we're going to need to get across the finish line as Republicans, not just in the presidential, but in these down ballot races where we are seeing people struggle in some of these races.
[22:10:06]
And we need to see some changes or else Republicans will not have great success in those races either.
CORNISH: Okay. Lightning round on this one other thing, Ben Domenech, columnist, talking about whether Trump should move on from J.D. Vance. Now, okay. I see your face. I, too, was like, is this fan fiction? Should I take it seriously? Also and --
JENNINGS: What are we, Democrats, throwing people off the ticket all the time? I mean, what are you going to do? Like have a revolving running mate every Friday afternoon if we're P.O.'d at the guy we just picked? I mean --
CORNISH: You never heard Trump say, you're fired?
JENNINGS: I don't know how you look like a serious person, no offense to you guys, when you keep throwing your candidates off the ticket. I mean --
CORNISH: One time that made a difference.
JENNINGS: You could make an argument that Vance was good or bad or indifferent or won't matter or maybe matters, but the reality is you got him. We had the convention. I think he's out there. I mean, throw a guy out, I don't know. SELLERS: Keep J.D. Vance. Please, God, keep J.D. Vance. The thing is that I think Republicans, and I've said this a number of times, but Republicans treated prior to Joe Biden getting out the race, like Democrats were in 2016, where Democrats were choosing jobs, where we were spiking the football, where the game was over.
And so I believe Donald Trump chose J.D. Vance because he thought this election was in the bag, and that's what you're saying.
CORNISH: Well, he thought it was going to be against Joe Biden. But like what I tell Scott and what I tell any Republican that I talked to is, look, Glenn Youngkin and Nikki Haley, they were right there. This race is a totally different race with Glenn Youngkin or Nikki Haley as vice president. It's totally -- yes.
JENNINGS: I don't know. I mean --
SELLERS: I'll be interested in what you guys think.
JENNINGS: But at the end of the day --
CORNISH: Yes, just don't let them take over the whole thing.
JENNINGS: But, truthfully, is there a voter out there who's indifferent on Trump but is really focused on the running? I'm skeptical about that.
GESIOTTO: I haven't met one yet.
HAYS: I mean, I think that a Nikki Haley would have sealed the deal for him and probably would have gotten people to vote for him that wouldn't vote for him that don't want to vote for a Democrat, right? I just don't think -- when he picked, I just don't think that there, those people who are out there that are moderate and these suburban women and these battlegrounds, I think they would have gone for Nikki Haley because they could see -- you know, they can see the benefit of Nikki Haley and her influence on him.
CORNISH: What would have seen it as an olive branch maybe after a long time?
GESIOTTO: I also think it's the policy. I don't think so. I don't think people who are very anti-Trump are going to look past him at the top of the ticket.
SELLERS: We're not talking about very anti-Trump now. What we're talking about is the people in the middle of the country who do not necessarily ascribe to Twitter who work every day.
GESIOTTO: but I think it's going to be the policies that win those people, not Nikki Haley or --
SELLERS: Look, if --
GESIOTTO: You have to get that message of why the policies are going to change their lives. SELLERS: I think, as we wrap up the first segment, I actually think I agree with you here. Because one of the things Chris LaCivita did, one of the things Susie Wiles did, one of the things Jason Miller did for six, seven, eight months which was discipline their candidate and talk about things and have a theme. And now, it's as if -- something happens when Donald Trump interacts with black women. He just completely goes haywire and it's fascinating to watch.
CORNISH: Yes, I don't know if correlation is causation, but I'm glad you brought up the leadership because we're going to talk more about that later in the hour. I want everyone to stick around.
Kamala Harris is now campaigning on one of her perceived weaknesses. We want to talk about whether or not that will work, and also why Donald Trump and MAGA are none too pleased with Joe Rogan, of all people.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
CORNISH: Welcome back, as Donald Trump speaks live right now in Montana. Also tonight, the new Democratic ticket played to a packed house in Arizona on what is considered, by her critics, to be a weakness. Vice President Kamala Harris is now campaigning on the border issue and talking tough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As president, she will hire thousands more border agents and crack down on fentanyl and human trafficking.
Fixing the border is tough, so is Kamala Harris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Okay. So, Megan, I want to start to you this assignment that she got from Biden to deal with root causes of migration, took her to Guatemala, took her to a lot of places. Of course, people noted it didn't take her to the border enough, right? So, tell me why they think this is a good place to lean in topic-wise.
HAYS: Because I think you always are supposed to lean into things that you don't want to talk about and that are uncomfortable, right? You go right to where people think your weakness is, so she's going to lean right in. The root cause of this thing is real. I went to the border, or to the Northern Triangle when he was vice president, we went down there a bunch. They invested a lot of time and money in there. Trump got in office, got rid of all these different policies and divested all the money, or divested all the money, and then she came back and did a bunch of public private partnerships, over $10 billion was invested in that area.
Border crossings are now at a five-month low since they signed the executive order. Also, they put this in front of Congress, like let's not forget this is Congress' responsibility.
CORNISH: Well, this is where you're sounding like the ad, right? Like this is the pitch, we did it, like we did do something.
HAYS: I don't think they did it, I think that they are working to do it, and I think that they are making progress here. This is not something -- it's very nuanced. It's not something that's ever going to be fixed to everyone's satisfaction. I think that she's out there and she has done things and she has been down in the Northern Triangle. You have to give people a reason to want to stay in their countries and not migrate up.
CORNISH: Hold on one second. I want you guys to hear a little bit of tape so we know what the uphill battle is.
Hold on one second. We --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Earlier this year, we had a chance to pass the toughest bipartisan border security bill in decades.
[22:20:00]
But Donald Trump tanked the deal, because he thought by doing that it would help him win an election.
But when I am president, I will sign the bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Okay. So, despite this push, we've got this Marquette law poll that voters still think that Trump and Republicans, they have more trust in them on this issue.
JENNINGS: Of course. I'd just like to first welcome Kamala Harris, the vice president, into the Republican Party.
CORNISH: Is that all it takes?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, I saw her ad today and I thought, did I miss something in it? Did she switch parties? Is she now running as a Republican? Because if you were a space alien and you landed on this planet and you knew nothing and you watched that ad, you'd say, boy, that Republican, she looks pretty tough on the border right now.
There is no conceivable way that any person in this country is going to believe that Kamala Harris or any Democratic candidate for president, after everything they've said and done, is going to be tougher on the border than Donald Trump. I want to Venmo the DNC right now, so they'll keep running these ads and keep reminding people of what a disaster this is.
SELLERS: My only question is Kamala Harris said something and I doubt either one of you all can refute it, the toughest piece of legislation we've had on the border in recent history, Donald Trump killed it. Is that a yes? I mean, did he kill it or not?
GESIOTTO: But with this messaging, it is the gaslight of the century. You know it, I know it. You can talk about any bill you want, but the reality is they come into office, Biden-Harris come into office, they reverse a lot of the policies that were keeping people from coming over the border. And that's the reality of how we got to where we are.
You want to talk about a five-month low but let's talk about 39 months.
SELLERS: Border crossings today are actually as low as they've been since July 1st.
JENNINGS: I thought you said we needed the bill.
SELLERS: But we do.
GESIOTTO: And let's talk about not only just who's coming over the border but what comes across the border. I'm from the state of Ohio. You've been in the state of Ohio with me back on the Romney campaign. We've been impacted for decades by the drug crisis opioid epidemic. We watch across the country as people lose loved ones to this, right now, in every single state. Every state is a border state. And now fentanyl is coming over to kill our entire population.
SELLERS: But my question again is why did --
GESIOTTO: So don't sit here and say that this is good, what's happening right now, or what they've done is good on the border. It's a matter of whether people will believe they're rewriting of history with these ads. I agree with Scott, I don't think they will.
SELLERS: What if I said I agree with everything you said and Donald Trump should not have killed the bill. Can you answer for anybody here? Why did Donald Trump kill that piece of -- why did he kill it? Just tell me, please.
JENNINGS: Because there was not a corresponding show of good faith from the Biden White House admitting what they did on day one to kill all of the Trump --
SELLERS: So, it was petty?
JENNINGS: They killed everything Donald Trump did, caused the crisis, then go out and put up a piece of legislation. Trump didn't agree with it, and now you want to blame Trump? If Joe Biden --
SELLERS: It was bipartisan.
GESIOTTO: If they would have stuck with Trump's policies, we wouldn't have been here.
SELLERS: Oh my God, so one second. We just made a plea about border crossings, about drugs coming over about fentanyl, about people losing their lives, right? That was the plea that was just made. And then the response -- but the response is that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris didn't crawl over to Donald Trump and therefore he killed the bill? That is what you call petty politics.
CORNISH: Let me jump in for a second because two things can be true at the same time, right? There are definitely some Senate Republicans out there who are licking their wounds at the embarrassment of having worked on a bill that their own guy said, please don't do it. And Kamala Harris really struggled with dealing with border policy.
So, the question is, which thing are voters going to remember? That's sort of how I'm thinking about it.
SELLERS: Immigration is not easy.
GESIOTTO: It's super nuanced. She didn't even go to the border.
JENNINGS: Good thing she's not running for --
GESIOTTO: That's the reality.
SELLERS: Because people just don't show up at the border.
GESIOTTO: But you can give us -- this is what we're talking about.
SELLERS: But it's like -- you're like, oh my God, Nicaraguans show up at the border. No, they come from Nicaragua. Like you have to go and deal with root causes.
GESIOTTO: But everybody across the country is not a political expert. So, when you talk to the average voter in a state like mine in Ohio, these are the type of things they're bringing up. And they don't feel that she's genuine on the issue and they don't feel like she's put forth the effort to stop the problems that they're having impact their lives as a result of that.
JENNINGS: Do you all as Democrats believe that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris deserve any of the blame for the crisis that virtually every American believes we are now in?
SELLERS: How about this? I would say --
JENNINGS: No, I'm asking you.
SELLERS: The answer is yes. I'm not going to sit here and lie to people. I'm on T.V. No, the answer is yes. I think --
CORNISH: No one lies on television.
SELLERS: Every other data ends up --
(CROSSTALKS)
But I would also say that like Democrats and Republicans share the blame. I go back all the way to where you had to Gang of Eight, and you chased them out of your party because they wanted immigration reform.
GESIOTTO: I don't disagree with you. SELLERS: No. And what I'm saying is Donald Trump killed the toughest immigration bill this country has seen in years. And if you're going to tell me that we have a problem with fentanyl in Ohio and people are dying and Donald Trump killed the bill that could have saved lives, then I don't know what to say.
[22:25:00]
CORNISH: There's going to be a lot of footage of both. Is that fair to say?
GESIOTTO: I mean, people across the country simply trust Republicans more on the issue. That's the reality of it. So, she has a burden to overcome on that and I don't think she's doing a good job of it. Obviously, they see that. They see that reflected in the polling, which is why they're running these ads in the first place. But whether they'll be successful or not remains to be seen.
I would argue that again the rewriting of history, I don't think, will be successful.
CORNISH: Yes. But let's hold it there. You make a good point that where people spend the money reveals their priorities and their concerns.
Next, we're going to be talking about Joe Rogan star podcaster, also facing serious backlash for praising RFK Jr. And my panelists will discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE: That's politics. They do it on the left. They do it on the right. They gaslight you, they manipulate you, they promote narratives. And the only one who's not doing that is Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
UNKNOWN: You a fan?
ROGAN: Yeah, I am a fan. Yeah, he's the only one that makes sense to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joe Rogan now getting the MAGA experience after those comments on his podcast praising presidential candidate RFK Jr. Now, in response to the backlash, Rogan tried to clarify. He says everyone's got the wrong idea.
He wasn't offering an official endorsement to Kennedy. And while Rogan heaped praise on Donald Trump for surviving an assassination attempt, he also added this caveat, quote, "I'm not the guy to get political information from." Joining our fifth seat tonight, comedian Pete Dominick, host of the daily "Stand Up" podcast. Pete, you have been to Rogan's show, which, in fact, people get their political information from like a lot.
PETE DOMINICK, COMEDIAN: Yeah, too many people, mostly young men.
CORNISH: And I say this, you went on the show to talk about what?
DOMINICK: Well, to argue with him. Joe and I are old friends.
CORNISH: Yeah.
DOMINICK: I mean, I've known Joe. I came up with him as a stand-up comedian. And so, he had me on as a guest of his show in November 19, which will remind you just a few months before --
CORNISH: The before times.
DOMINICK: Yeah, before times, exactly. So, things were a little bit normal on his show and in the world. But COVID really seemed to change Joe and his opinions about everything. He went from, you know, trusted scientists to conspiracy theorists and then all of the rest. So, a lot has changed in his world.
CORNISH: You were talking about gun policy at one point.
DOMINICK: Yeah.
CORNISH: And I bring this up because for him to sort of say, hey, look, we don't talk about, you know, I'm not the guy, feels like vaguely disingenuous. And a lot of comedians who literally do satire sitting behind desks kind of when the time comes back away from saying, don't get your news from me.
DOMINICK: Yeah. I mean, I worked at "The Daily Show", Jon Stewart, "The Colbert Report".
CORNISH: I didn't say a name. Don't get me in trouble.
DOMINICK: I'm dropping names. But all these guys have always done that. And the bottom line is like I was -- I was one of the original comedians to host a talk show. I'm very jealous of Rogan and all these other guys' success because they really blew up. But the bottom line is you can be a really smart. Comedians are great because we're curious, we ask good questions.
But the strength of your show and your credibility often comes in your guests and people that you platform. And if you're having conspiracy theorists and white supremacists and others on your show, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. If you invite them on your show to say these things, then you have to stand by them and you cannot play dumb. And I never have and I never would.
CORNISH: I want to bring in the rest of you guys, because I actually found this to be the least surprising thing to me, like knowing what Rogan has been talking about his show. I didn't think, what? He thinks RFK, Jr. might be an O.K. guy? Like it kind of seems -- you're nodding Madison, like not that much of a stretch.
MADISON GESIOTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: Yeah. I mean, I had to read through the articles repeatedly to figure out where the news was in this one. I was not at all surprised with him saying that. And I didn't think at all that it seemed like an endorsement.
CORNISH: So, why was there blowback?
GESIOTO: So, the fact that a lot of people on the right --
CORNISH: Yeah.
GESIOTO: -- immediately assumed it was an endorsement and kind of blew back on him was quite surprising to me.
UNKNOWN: Well, Trump attacked him.
GESIOTO: Yeah. And even President Trump coming -- saying that he's going to be booed at UFC, which I don't think is going to happen. I was shocked by that.
SELLERS: I'm interested to see kind of Joe Rogan's response, because what we've seen with a lot of grown men around Donald Trump is they melt like putty in his hands. Men of great conviction, all of a sudden, become kind of cowardly around Donald Trump.
I can't wait for 20 years down the road for some psychologist to write a book about the personality of Donald Trump and how he melts men around him. And so, Donald Trump just punched Joe Rogan back in the face.
He said, look, you're going to get booed at UFC. I'm interested to see if Joe Rogan will stand, as we say, back in Denmark, South Carolina, 10 toes down. Are you going to stand on your business? What are we going to do?
GESIOTO: Did his tweet come after where he said that he didn't endorse him, that he likes Trump too?
CORNISH: I wish I could say that. Meghan, do you want to jump in?
MEGHAN HAYS, DNC CONVENTION CONSULTANT: Exactly, like putty. I mean, I just don't think anyone expected Trump to not go back after him. Like Trump, it's a vanity project. He wants everyone to love him. So, of course he was, you know.
CORNISH: But in a way --
DOMINICK: And more way to acknowledge it, Joe Rogan has said, "I've never had Donald Trump on my show" and he's wanted to come on. So, he's not had him on as a guest.
CORNISH: Interesting, interesting.
DOMINICK: Weird week to come out for RFK, though. Weird week.
JENNINGS: Yeah. Following the Abear story. I mean, a candidate leaving something for dead somewhere.
UNKNOWN: Oh, God, wow.
JENNINGS: Well, listen. Can we go to commercial? Is there a commercial break?
CORNISH: Go ahead. Too soon.
JENNINGS: Too soon? It's been a few decades.
CORNISH: Oh, yeah.
JENNINGS: Oh, you mean the bear.
CORNISH: Yeah.
JENNINGS: Part of the --
DOMINICK: I thought you were the comedian.
CORNISH: I know. He's here all week, folks.
DOMINICK: I wouldn't have taken that risk, Scott. I wouldn't have taken that one. Go ahead. Continue. Continue.
JENNINGS: You may not be familiar with my work here. While you're in the hole, keep digging.
CORNISH: Yeah.
SELLERS: Go for it.
CORNISH: Let's do a one shot on just Scott. That would be great.
UNKNOWN: Continue.
JENNINGS: I think part of the elixir, though, of the Trump campaign is that the lower propensity voter you are, the more you like Donald Trump. So, the less news you're consuming, the less political news, the less engaged, the less likely you are to vote, the more likely you are to like Trump. And if you went out to vote this time, you would vote for Trump.
[22:35:00]
My assumption is a lot of Rogan's listeners overlap with this part of the algebra. And so, when you see Rogan doing something that may call into question whether his listeners should vote for Trump, of course Trump's going to react to that.
CORNISH: Can we talk about that? I don't know. Some people might think that that Venn diagram is a circle between a Joe Rogan fan and a Trump fan. That's not necessarily --
DOMINICK: Not a total circle, but there's some overlap.
CORNISH: Yeah. So, what's your sense of it?
DOMINICK: Well, I mean, you can see the statistics and the demographics and who listens to certain podcasts and overwhelmingly, it is young men. And they love fighting. A huge thing that Joe Rogan hosts and has always been a part of is MMA.
CORNISH: Right.
DOMINICK: And so, they like that kind of thing. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're Trump fans. Matter of fact, Joe Rogan said, go out and listen to this well-known comedian who's a libertarian. That's who he suggested you get your political news from. But the idea that there's a huge overlap, I think is true. I mean, it's absolutely true.
CORNISH: Yeah, Scott, you're making an interesting point about the low propensity voter, because I do think the appeal of a lot of like Podcast Bro, Manosphere, et cetera, is there are people seeking information. They don't trust mainstream information. Bakari?
SELLERS: No, I was going to say, and I think Ron Brownstein and many others have said that, I mean, if we just want to bring it back to November 5th of this year, that RFK, Jr. is actually taking votes from Donald Trump. Many people have seen in this election process that RFK is the person who is, and it's marginal, but what we have is a marginal race.
CORNISH: Yeah, it's in margins.
SELLERS: It's a marginal race. And so, I think that Joe Rogan probably had more impact, hence, Donald Trump's reaction, than people really want to know. And you saw, for example, I mean, it's just been a cataclysm of people.
I mean, Kyle Rittenhouse. I mean, you just have these kind of fringe characters, for example, who we want to push away from society, but still have an impact on those voters we're talking about. And when you have RFK on the ballot, I think it poses a problem.
DOMINICK: Well, the overlap, I just figured out, to answer your question, the overlap, the Venn diagram is conspiracy theories. RFK is known mainly for one thing. He's only famous for one big reason nationwide. That is to be an anti-vax person. He's anti-science. He's a conspiracy theorist. So, is Joe Rogan and so is Donald Trump. They all are anti-vax.
CORNISH: Particularly on the COVID issue, though, just to be clear for Rogan.
DOMINICK: Well, furthermore, no. I mean, we can split all those hairs using journalism and research to see which vaccines.
CORNISH: No, I more mean, you talked about that being a catalyst for him, the pandemic. And that happened a lot for a lot of people.
DOMINICK: Yeah. Rogan, RFK, and Donald Trump. The anti-vaxxer has three choices. They like all those three guys.
CORNISH: So, to see them at odds with each other is actually kind of weird.
DOMINICK: And kind of good, because reasonable, critical thinking people have to then go back to people like Dr. Peter Hotez and so many other people who are heroes because they have created miraculous vaccines that have helped save the lives of children in poverty all over the world that people like, unfortunately, Rogan, RFK, and Donald Trump have destroyed their lives and careers and put them in danger.
CORNISH: Okay, let me jump on something you guys have all alluded to, which is the idea that Trump punched back because there's something at stake here, right? And we often have wondered whether or not it matters that entertainers endorse candidates in any way. And there's actually a new Harvard study, of course, that finds that they do.
There's some caveats here, basically, that while some polling shows that people claim they aren't influenced by celebrity voices when it comes to politics, you dig into the evidence and you find that there are ways that these voices become very powerful. So, Democrats love this, right? Because there's always like a cavalcade of stars at the DNC, et cetera.
UNKNOWN: I wonder why.
CORNISH: I know. But there's also backlash to it, right?
HAYS: I know I just went to a state school. I didn't go to Harvard, so I don't want to be judgmental. Yeah, I actually don't think that it actually impacts votes. I think it impacts momentum and people attending events and raising money and the organizing factor.
I don't actually think a celebrity showing up at a concert or Beyonce giving a concert is going to actually turn people out to vote. I think it just drives momentum and it drives the news cycle, which I think is all positives for the candidates. But I don't necessarily know that it's getting people to vote.
GESIOTO: And it didn't help Hillary in 2016. I mean, there was not a celebrity I could think of that didn't come out and support her in 2016. She out-fundraised Donald Trump by almost two to one and he ended up winning.
DOMINICK: Yeah, but Hillary is not Kamala. And this research does prove that, actually, participation matters. And I would just say it depends on the celebrity, for sure.
GESIOTO: Absolutely.
DOMINICK: I was radicalized as a young man by the greatest comedian of my era, George Carlin. He affected the way I think Taylor Swift, absolutely. And if you come out for LGBT folks and the movement and you're a celebrity and you're an artist and you're writing these songs, you're performing, you're John Legend, you're Taylor Swift, you're Beyonce, it absolutely matters. And this research proves it. SELLERS: I actually agree with that.
DOMINICK: Although you have Hulk Hogan and Kid Rock. I don't think they're moving any votes.
SELLERS: I mean, I think. I know, I know you just heard Scott's heart.
JENNINGS: I'm going to -- I'm going to --
CORNISH: The Kid Rock part or the Hulk Hogan part?
SELLERS: -- the junkyard dog.
UNKNOWN: I mean, it's not going to tear off his shirt.
SELLERS: No, I know, Scott.
[22:40:00]
CORNISH: We need a delay. Make sure the delay is working. We don't know what's going to happen here.
SELLERS: I was going to say that -- that celebrities do matter and it tells you a lot about people and the celebrities you gravitate towards. I mean, you know, Hulk Hogan is the only person I know who've gotten fired from WWE for saying the word nigger. Right. I mean, that's just that's just where we are and that's who he is. And he was celebrated at the RNC. And that just says a lot about a lot about a coalition or lack thereof.
And I think there's a lot to say about just, you know, a Taylor Swift or whomever it may be, or John Legend or will I am or an Anthony Anderson or Chris Rock or whoever these people are that the DNC may have.
But what it doesn't make up for is the ground game. And a lot of people, particularly Democrats who live on both coasts in both L.A. and New York, like to think if Taylor Swift comes to the DNC, which she should, that's another story there. There is going to be a swell and ground. Now, you got to knock on doors.
UNKNOWN: l-- I mean --
SELLERS: You got to have some of that.
UNKNOWN: But how you get a volunteer?
CORNISH: Just for a little context there, I mean, for the Swift example specifically, when she came out with an endorsement for a Senate race in Tennessee --
UNKNOWN: She registered voters.
CORNISH: There were -- there was a noticeable increase in registered voters. We're not saying everybody voted the way she wanted. But does that contribute to that?
SELLERS: Today, I was working on a Shaboosie endorsement for -- for Kamala. I want Shaboosie. Are you all familiar with?
CORNISH: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know --
DOMINICK: I'm a huge Shaboosie fan. Like, ask me anything. That's my guy.
SELLERS: So, anyway, I'm sorry, Scott. I didn't mean to cut you off. You're not a Shaboosie fan?
JENNINGS: Which book of the Bible is that?
CORNISH: I think -- I think it's the best answer. I actually think the show should end right now.
JENNINGS: Here's what I think. I think -- I think celebrity endorsements aren't persuasive to people who are actively engaged in politics. I do think they have the capacity to insert themselves into people's information flow in a way that politicians can't. I also think events matter. If you have a massive concert and you sign a bunch of people up to vote or volunteer or donate or even during the voting window, actually cast ballots.
SELLERS: Yeah.
JENNINGS: This is raw numbers, which is why J.D. Vance should get Jon Voight to open for him for more than five people. It matters. It matters that celebrities show up and you register voters and you get out the vote. The only thing that matters is getting out the vote.
CORNISH: I just got hold on one second. We're going to come back in a moment. Pete has given us a good way to jump off of it. I will come back to you because we're going to talk about a scenario where Donald Trump revamps his campaign in some way. What would that look like? Is that a pop star for J.D. Vance, for example? Or could he just bring back a familiar face? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:55]
CORNISH: All right. So if, as reports suggest, Donald Trump is anxious about the way his campaign is going, what would MAGA Campaign 3.0 look like, especially if he thought the problem was leadership?
Well, a new report suggests Trump wants to bring his former campaign advisor, Kellyanne Conway, back into the fold. It's a little complicated because she was reportedly suspected of badmouthing Trump's V.P. pick, Ohio Republican J.D. Vance.
So, Meghan -- Madison, I promise to come back to you. Let's talk about this a little. I'm saying reportedly, but we've talked all hour about it's a little bit wobbly on messaging. Can Kellyanne Conway solve something like this? GESIOTO: So, there's been a lot of rumors that she may be making a
play to come back in. I know, Kellyanne, I haven't talked to her about it directly. I don't know whether or not it's true, but it has been going around the Republican circles for some time now. So, it'll be very interesting to see.
There are a lot of Republicans who are concerned that we see people taking things for granted, that they think this is a solid win. I don't think that's necessarily the case. This is a whole different ballgame after Joe Biden's out of the race.
I put a tweet out just a few weeks ago about this, and I got a lot of blowback from Republicans online surprisingly. I said, hey, listen, no matter how they're getting the crowds, they're getting the crowds. Democrats are doing a lot better.
CORNISH: As people said, what, no, we need to --
GESIOTO: They didn't like me anymore, apparently.
CORNISH: Well, just ask Joe Rogan. It's tough out there. I want to ask you, because every time someone has mentioned Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita, they almost always say to me, and they're really good, right? Like there's always there's been some respect for them.
JENNINGS: Yeah.
CORNISH: But now that we're in this chapter where Trump himself is struggling, why do you think people are talking about this now?
JENNINGS: Well, I think they're talking about it because she had some success before in the campaign that he won. So, obviously they're -- they're looking to recreate that magic. I think Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles have done a terrific job, so far. I think it's the most professionally run campaign of the three.
I also think these things are big endeavors and there's a lot of room for a lot of advisers. I mean, certainly the Democrats have a lot of people around.
CORNISH: Yeah, but we're like 90 days out. So, you've been on campaigns.
JENNINGS: But --
CORNISH: Can you just bring something in?
JENNINGS: Yeah, but we're 90 days out, but we're two weeks into the actual campaign that we're now running versus the other the other campaign that we were on.
CORNISH: Well, that's a good question. What can someone like Conway change?
GESIOTO: I think messaging can change. I mean, again, going back to what I said earlier, we have to be talking about the economy more. We have to be talking about the border more.
CORNISH: But they aren't saying the same things to him.
GESIOTO: From a campaign perspective or from a national party perspective, I think the ground game could change. I mean, we're seeing something that's never been done before with them trusting outside groups to execute the ground game.
SELLERS: The problem with the ground game is that Donald Trump, through Trumpism and MAGAism and all these other things and paying for his legal bills has kind of destroyed your state offices and your local offices and everything runs through MAGA.
GESIOTO: Well, so what they're doing, what they're doing differently this year is they're trusting the outside groups to run the ground game. It's never been done before. And it does make traditional Republicans like me understand.
SELLERS: The second thing is that one of the names that hasn't been mentioned is Jason Miller, who's done a yeoman's job with the comms operation of Donald Trump. And I actually think that things changed. I believe it was August of -- September of 2020 or August -- I mean, 2016, excuse me, when they brought in Kellyanne Conway the first time and she actually changed things for the better.
[22:50:06]
The problem, as you said, though, is the candidate. No matter --no matter what you say --
CORNISH: Because you have a Trump whisperer, right? If you have someone who can get to the candidate, does it make a difference?
HAYS: I do think that makes a difference. She also brings gravitas and she also can be a spokesperson in her own right. And I think they need more people out there where he's not talking, like he did a press conference and one event today. They do not have enough people out there talking and J.D. Vance is not breaking through. So, they need more spokespeople out there.
GESIOTO: That's another shift from 2016. There was a lot more surrogates, I think, out on networks like myself and many others were out on - something for the president.
SELLERS: But I will say this, like one of the best -- one of the best surrogates you all have is not endorsing you because like they threatened to kill you. That's Mike Pence. Like, so, the Vice President of the United States said, no, I can't endorse the man because they were threatened to hang me and --
UNKNOWN: The idea that --
GESIOTO: There's a lot of -- there's a lot of good surrogates out there that support the president that aren't on the cable news shows or not online.
DOMINICK: Except the vice president.
HAYS: But why? Why aren't they?
JENNINGS: But we're not going to. The campaign is not going to put a deputy candidate out there in the form of a paid -- that's not the purpose of --
DOMINICK: What about my what about the My Pillow guy? The fact of the matter is -- no, the fact of the matter is that this is a ridiculous conversation. With all due respect, the idea that Donald Trump -- we've had this conversation --
CORNISH: No, it's interesting that you're saying that.
SELLERS: She chose this segment.
DOMINICK: It's all your fault.
CORNISH: You're good. You're good.
DOMINICK: You're an award-winning journalist. What I would like --my point is --
CORNISH: No, it's okay. I know where you live.
DOMINICK: I'll ask you. I'll ask you. You've covered Donald Trump for years. Have you ever seen him be -- have you ever seen anybody be able to help him change the message? He is completely uncontrollable. He went into the National Association of Black Journalists and he crapped all over.
CORNISH: All right. But here's another way to finish this.
DOMINICK: And you can't change that. He's always going to be that way.
CORNISH: You do know he has because he won. That's one at one point, right?
JENNINGS: So, in '16 -- he had a very --
DOMINICK: Who changed him?
JENNINGS: He had a very tight message in '16. And for most of this campaign, he was operating within a very tight.
SELLERS: Right. I would agree with that.
JENNINGS: He has done it before. The question is, who does he need to hear from to get the framing right now? If it's Kellyanne, fine. These things are big operations and there's room for a lot of flag officers.
DOMINICK: They'll screw it up.
UNKNOWN: Let me --
DOMINICK: Do what they say for one second and then they'll screw it.
SELLERS: Let me also say this for everybody watching on T.V. and around the world, particularly Democrats. Election does not start until Labor Day, all right? People really still are not tuned in and locked in.
CORNISH: They're not tuned in now, man. There's a lot going on.
SELLERS: I disagree. I disagree. No, no. They're tuned in to me and Scott. I even unbuttoned two buttons. So, they're tuned in. I can do another one.
CORNISH: They actually put a PG-13 rating on the show for that.
JENNINGS: But wait, Bakari, where are you going after we're done?
SELLERS: What is -- going home.
CORNISH: Okay.
DOMINICK: So, you think that's -- that's conventional wisdom from the past. Do you think that's true now with Kamala Harris and Tim Walz? The election hasn't started. It started. It is on. This time is different. Well, I have 2016 redux. So look, I'm going to say the election hasn't started and we still down by five in every swing state.
DOMINICK: Fair enough.
SELLERS: So, that's where I am right now. And what I'm telling people is, look, if there are changes to be made, make them now. And so, if Kellyanne Conway, if Republicans are listening, if Kellyanne Conway can make a change, make it now. But shout out to Jason Miller, man. You all just overlook my guy from South Carolina.
CORNISH: Okay.
SELLERS: But he's -- he's the -- he's the --
CORNISH: Republican Party awaits Bakari Sellers' memo. Everyone, stay with us. I want -- you know, there's a programming note I want to bring up, because in the next hour, former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura is actually going to be speaking with Laura Coates on "Laura Coates Live". He's going to discuss his fellow Minnesotan Tim Walz. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:16]
CORNISH: All right, we're back and it's time now for the "NewsNightcap". You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. And Meghan, we're going to start with you.
HAYS: Great. I do not think that Kamala Harris needs to do a traditional media interview. I think she's meeting people where she is and doing social media. And that is where voters are. And I think the media, as soon as you give one interview, they're just going to complain that they weren't picked. And it'll just be a -- ongoing cycle.
CORNISH: Okay, so Kamala, don't interview, says Meghan. Madison, you.
GESIOTO: All right. I'm going for the exact opposite. I think she needs to give an interview. And my proposal is that she gives her first interview to Joe Rogan. They do it at the border so she can talk about this issue that she claims to be so strong on now.
CORNISH: That is political mad libs. Love it for you.
DOMINICK: I just got to say, in 2016 election night, I told my then nine, eleven-year old daughters that when they woke up, a woman would be the President of the United States. And I lost all credibility with my daughters, who are now 17 and 19 and hopefully volunteering on Kamala Harris' campaign to help elect the first woman president.
And what I mean by saying that is, we can all sit here and be pundits and analysts and political scientists if we want. But no one has ever seen this type of energy and enthusiasm in the history of people -- of anybody alive in America. And capturing that --
SELLERS: It's actually 30 seconds.
CORNISH: Yeah, I love it, Pete Dominick. Bakari.
SELLERS: It's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me. Taylor Swift. I need Mignon Moore, Donna Brazile, Leah Daughtry, all of the people to make sure that we invite Taylor Swift to the DNC. I'm a Swifty. I went to see Red, which is, by the way, I believe her best album. I want to see her at the DNC. I just want to be a part of the pandemonium.
CORNISH: Yeah.
SELLERS: And by the way, she's the only person to defeat ISIS.
JENNINGS: You're not part of the pandemic. You're part of the pandering.
CORNISH: Oh, wow. Speaking of which, Scott, last word for you.
JENNINGS: All right. Here's my question.
[23:00:00]
What in the F is happening in England? I keep picking up the internet and my social feeds, and I see -- and I see that people are being -- I see that people are being arrested in England, the U.K. for retweeting memes and leaving Facebook comments.
CORNISH: Well, inciting and encouraging riots.
JENNINGS: You for it?
CORNISH: I'm just saying it's a real thing.
JENNINGS: I'm saying blink twice if you need us to come liberate you. We will come over there. We've done it before.
SELLERS: I'm not going. I'm not going. I don't want to.
JENNINGS: You get arrested for --
SELLERS: I don't want warm beer. I'm going to stay right here.
CORNISH: Okay.
UNKNOWN: Tweets.
CORNISH: All right. Well, U.K. Twitter, thanks for watching tonight. Thanks to the rest of you for watching "NewsNight State of the Race". Stay with us for "Laura Coates Live". It starts right now.
